The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

13 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

And it goes further than just stats, the team played like a bunch of cast off losers too when he was under center. 

Wentz has his problems but this take is 💩.  I file this under the same garbage bin where fans cry that the team isn’t playing with heart when they lose, or that the coach needs to be more fired up and mad.  

Odd that Rivera would discuss who to start with his captains and choose to go with him if this were the case.

 

Nick Martin at center, with Tre Turner and an old ass Norwell on each side will tend to look like cast off losers, because they mostly are.  Not having a guy like BRob to carry the rock also doesn’t help.  On the other side of the ball, missing a guy like Curl while fielding a castoff loser like WJ3 isn’t optimal.  Among the other variety of differences between then and now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Wentz has his problems but this take is 💩.  I file this under the same garbage bin where fans cry that the team isn’t playing with heart when they lose, or that the coach needs to be more fired up and mad.  

You’re right…it’s a garbage take. I’ll do better.

 

This whole thread is ****ing garbage. 😆

 

I’m banning myself from posting in this hog trough again until Sam Howell takes the reins. Happy New Year to me. 

[CjSuAvE22]

Just for everyone’s information, I am in no way a supporter of heinicke i dont think he’s very good at all but what if we signed him to a 5 million dollar one year contract(gives us room to sign some oline depth) we take another qb in the upcoming draft and have heinicke start the season under center with Howell backing him just waiting for when his number is called and the last qb (not in team yet but drafted in 2023) waiting in the wings as well. We the more I think about this, it makes more sense then going out and trying to splurge on qb end up having to spend 25-30 million a year. 

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Just for everyone’s information, I am in no way a supporter of heinicke i dont think he’s very good at all but what if we signed him to a 5 million dollar one year contract(gives us room to sign some oline depth) we take another qb in the upcoming draft and have heinicke start the season under center with Howell backing him just waiting for when his number is called and the last qb (not in team yet but drafted in 2023) waiting in the wings as well. We the more I think about this, it makes more sense then going out and trying to splurge on qb end up having to spend 25-30 million a year. 

Heinicke will not be going into a season as a penciled in starter. Thats just madness. 

 

If its not Wentz its gonna be another

veteran or we draft someone.

[redskinss]

I find it rather humorous that the people who are complaining of cherry picking are the ones doing the cherry picking.

The debate started as an argument as to whether wentz was "beyond atrocious" not whether he was good or not.

V.o.r. wasn't arguing that he was good, if so then he would have been cherry picking. 

His argument was that he wasn't beyond atrocious and therefore him pointing out the moments that weren't beyond atrocious were appropriate to the debate.

Everyone who conveniently left that out was cherry picking.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

23 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

You’re right…it’s a garbage take. I’ll do better.

 

This whole thread is ****ing garbage. 😆

 

I’m banning myself from posting in this hog trough again until Sam Howell takes the reins. Happy New Year to me. 

Fair enough.

 

I just think it’s kind of wild to pin bad players playing bad on the QB.

[BigDibbs31]

51 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Fair enough.

 

I just think it’s kind of wild to pin bad players playing bad on the QB.

But Wentz also played really bad for about 18/25+ quarters he played. Hope we all can agree on that as well 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, BigDibbs31 said:

But Wentz also played really bad for about 18/25+ quarters he played. Hope we all can agree on that as well 

I haven’t broken down quarter by quarter to come up with a percentage of what constitutes playing bad and good.

 

I hate this because I don’t really care about Wentz and would be fine if he’s one and done for us.  I don’t have great belief he’s going to have a resurgence here.  Obviously I’d like someone better.

 

I just think ya’ll get carried away with how god awful, shoot him and put him out to the pasture he is.

[Warhead36]

Wentz WAS mostly really bad. BUT his ceiling is still higher than Heinicke.

 

What Heinicke had going for him was mobility and not taking sacks or turning it over. Well the last few games he has been tacking sacks and turning it over. And his mobility hasn't really made up for the lack of a downfield vertical passing game.

 

If you're gonna get the same downsides, you might as well go with Wentz who gives you more upside.

 

Simple as that.

[88Comrade2000]

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I haven’t broken down quarter by quarter to come up with a percentage of what constitutes playing bad and good.

 

I hate this because I don’t really care about Wentz and would be fine if he’s one and done for us.  I don’t have great belief he’s going to have a resurgence here.  Obviously I’d like someone better.

 

I just think ya’ll get carried away with how god awful, shoot him and put him out to the pasture he is.

No one will have resurgence here until Dan is gone and all his hires- Ron and his Gm crew is gone.

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Wentz WAS mostly really bad. BUT his ceiling is still higher than Heinicke.

 

What Heinicke had going for him was mobility and not taking sacks or turning it over. Well the last few games he has been tacking sacks and turning it over. And his mobility hasn't really made up for the lack of a downfield vertical passing game.

 

If you're gonna get the same downsides, you might as well go with Wentz who gives you more upside.

 

Simple as that.

 

For me I think this is the perfect test. My two top concerns about Wentz

 

A. Can he move better? Seems like they are saying Wentz had an ankle situation which limited his mobility. 
 

B. Can he play big in a big game? His reputation is that he isn’t a gamer 

.

I am not very optimistic but I am also not out on him either, he deserves this shot to sink or swim 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Guys Guys Guys.

 

Replying to everybody who took issue with my defense of Wentz not being "beyond atrocious."  

 

First, let's just state the being better than "beyond atrocious" is a pretty low bar to clear.  And Wentz had enough good mixed in with the bad that he wasn't beyond atrocious.

 

We've seen "beyond atrocious."  John Beck.  Tim Hasselbeck.  Some of the starts in 2013 and 2014 for Griffin.  Some of the starts down the stretch last year for Taylor Heinicke where he scored single digit QBRs.  Those are performances which are "beyond atrocious."

 

Wentz's performance, overall, wasn't in that realm.  The worst game he played was the game against Philly.  But I said then, and will say now, Joe Montana at the height of his powers couldn't have done much better with the OL which included Nick Martin, an injured Norwell and S. Charles. Every play was a jail break.  Could Wentz have been better?  Sure.  But if you ignore the Nick Martin of it all, you just clearly have no idea what the hell you're looking at.

 

This isn't to say whether or not I know if Wentz can be an option here going forward.  I don't.  And I'm interested to see what he puts out there the next 2 weeks.  

 

My overall point is Wentz hasn't played enough for this team to make a decision, and the situation he was put in early in the season made an evaluation really hard.  He might be terrible, he might not be.  We don't know yet.  

 

Things working against him in his first stint:

- The defense was playing like poop for the first 3-4 games.  They might have won the Detroit game if the defense wasn't terrible. William Jackson was still on the team, and that was bad juju all around.  

- Brian Robinson was either out or not truly back to himself, so the run game was scattered.  They tried to use Samuel a bunch as a RB because they didn't trust Gibson to be a feature back.

- The OL disintegrated.  Rouiller got hurt.  Larsen was still on PUP.  Schweitzer (backup center/guard) got hurt.  T.Turner was never healthy, and eventually got benched for S.Charles.  Norwell wasn't healthy, but had to play because backup guard #1 (Schweitzer) was hurt and backup guard #2 (S.Charles) was already playing for Turner.  They had to sign a guy, Nick Martin, to play Center and he IS beyond atrocious. That's the 4th string center.  The line somewhat stabilized when Larsen came back, T.Turner got a little healthier, and then they started moving Cosmi in and out at both RG and RT.  

- I think Dotson also got hurt somewhere in that stretch also.

- Wentz broke his hand in the Chicago game but finished the game.

 

So, with that context, is 5 healthy games and one broken hand game enough of a sample size to judge a QB  I'd say no, and I'd say that for literally any QB.  If that was the situation TH was placed in for his first 5 starts, I'd say the same thing.  

 

Look at what has happened to the Bucs this year.  Sure, Brady is old.  But I don't think he's forgotten how to play football.  Their OL collapsed and the GOAT has looked positively pedestrian.  Same thing happened to Rodgers for weeks.  He also played through a finger injury.  

 

If you took the beginning of the GB season in a vacuum, and tried to pass judgement on Rodgers on those 5-7 games, you'd say Rodgers was a complete and total bum and had no business being on the football field. 

 

And of course, you'd be wrong.  Because context matters.

 

I think the folks who have completely made up their minds on Wentz and don't want to see him at all ever again fall into 2 camps:

 

1. Hivers who are just grumpy that their little boy wonder couldn't get it done and has been benched.  Their #1 argument for the greatness of Taylor Heinicke was Ron stuck with him over a healthy Wentz.  Not that's not the case, and so they are grumpy. ** I'm not saying ALL Hivers feel this way, just the ones who are overtly saying Wentz shouldn't even be getting this shot.

 

2. People who made up their mind in February when the trade was made Wentz was the wrong guy and they felt vindicated in their opinion, and they want to continue to feel vindicated.  

 

Just about everybody else has some degree of interest in seeing how this plays out.  It might be a train wreck.  It might be awesome.  Or (most likely) it might be in the middle.  

 

So, we'll see.  

Edited January 1, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[BigDibbs31]

I hope Wentz plays out of his mind this week and next then makes the front office think really hard about bringing him back next year. Our other options for next year are not really good unless we are willing to either over pay or over trade. 
 

I’ll be in section 104 cheering my dick off for Wentz and the team today. Let’s hope this all plays out in a positive way not only for the sake of this team but for the sake of the extremeskins fanbase’s insanity. It has been a rough 30 years (and I’m only 38). 

[Voice_of_Reason]

 

43 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

No one will have resurgence here until Dan is gone and all his hires- Ron and his Gm crew is gone.

So, let's say they win their next 2 games, get into the playoffs.  That's 2 playoff appearances in 3 years under Ron, who took over a 3-13 team.

 

It's still an if.  But let's say it happens.  Would you change your tune?  Or are you still going to be sour grapes about everything because of reasons?

3 minutes ago, BigDibbs31 said:

I’ll be in section 104 cheering my dick off for Wentz and the team today.

Please don't lose your dick over this game.   It's not worth it.

 

 

[bowhunter]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Please don't lose your dick over this game.   It's not worth it.

 

 

Or at least put a Pig nose on it. Rumor has it there may be auditions for a 5th Hogette. May even get it on TV and make special appearances. Your Johnson may become more famous than back in your adult film days.

[Tundra scout]

2 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

You’re right…it’s a garbage take. I’ll do better.

 

This whole thread is ****ing garbage. 😆

 

I’m banning myself from posting in this hog trough again until Sam Howell takes the reins. Happy New Year to me. 

Don’t let the door hit you in the ass. Buh bye 

[skinsfan66]

16 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Guys Guys Guys.

 

Replying to everybody who took issue with my defense of Wentz not being "beyond atrocious."  

 

First, let's just state the being better than "beyond atrocious" is a pretty low bar to clear.  And Wentz had enough good mixed in with the bad that he wasn't beyond atrocious.

 

We've seen "beyond atrocious."  John Beck.  Tim Hasselbeck.  Some of the starts in 2013 and 2014 for Griffin.  Some of the starts down the stretch last year for Taylor Heinicke where he scored single digit QBRs.  Those are performances which are "beyond atrocious."

 

Wentz's performance, overall, wasn't in that realm.  The worst game he played was the game against Philly.  But I said then, and will say now, Joe Montana at the height of his powers couldn't have done much better with the OL which included Nick Martin, an injured Norwell and S. Charles. Every play was a jail break.  Could Wentz have been better?  Sure.  But if you ignore the Nick Martin of it all, you just clearly have no idea what the hell you're looking at.

 

This isn't to say whether or not I know if Wentz can be an option here going forward.  I don't.  And I'm interested to see what he puts out there the next 2 weeks.  

 

My overall point is Wentz hasn't played enough for this team to make a decision, and the situation he was put in early in the season made an evaluation really hard.  He might be terrible, he might not be.  We don't know yet.  

 

Things working against him in his first stint:

- The defense was playing like poop for the first 3-4 games.  They might have won the Detroit game if the defense wasn't terrible. William Jackson was still on the team, and that was bad juju all around.  

- Brian Robinson was either out or not truly back to himself, so the run game was scattered.  They tried to use Samuel a bunch as a RB because they didn't trust Gibson to be a feature back.

- The OL disintegrated.  Rouiller got hurt.  Larsen was still on PUP.  Schweitzer (backup center/guard) got hurt.  T.Turner was never healthy, and eventually got benched for S.Charles.  Norwell wasn't healthy, but had to play because backup guard #1 (Schweitzer) was hurt and backup guard #2 (S.Charles) was already playing for Turner.  They had to sign a guy, Nick Martin, to play Center and he IS beyond atrocious. That's the 4th string center.  The line somewhat stabilized when Larsen came back, T.Turner got a little healthier, and then they started moving Cosmi in and out at both RG and RT.  

- I think Dotson also got hurt somewhere in that stretch also.

- Wentz broke his hand in the Chicago game but finished the game.

 

So, with that context, is 5 healthy games and one broken hand game enough of a sample size to judge a QB  I'd say no, and I'd say that for literally any QB.  If that was the situation TH was placed in for his first 5 starts, I'd say the same thing.  

 

Look at what has happened to the Bucs this year.  Sure, Brady is old.  But I don't think he's forgotten how to play football.  Their OL collapsed and the GOAT has looked positively pedestrian.  Same thing happened to Rodgers for weeks.  He also played through a finger injury.  

 

If you took the beginning of the GB season in a vacuum, and tried to pass judgement on Rodgers on those 5-7 games, you'd say Rodgers was a complete and total bum and had no business being on the football field. 

 

And of course, you'd be wrong.  Because context matters.

 

I think the folks who have completely made up their minds on Wentz and don't want to see him at all ever again fall into 2 camps:

 

1. Hivers who are just grumpy that their little boy wonder couldn't get it done and has been benched.  Their #1 argument for the greatness of Taylor Heinicke was Ron stuck with him over a healthy Wentz.  Not that's not the case, and so they are grumpy. ** I'm not saying ALL Hivers feel this way, just the ones who are overtly saying Wentz shouldn't even be getting this shot.

 

2. People who made up their mind in February when the trade was made Wentz was the wrong guy and they felt vindicated in their opinion, and they want to continue to feel vindicated.  

 

Just about everybody else has some degree of interest in seeing how this plays out.  It might be a train wreck.  It might be awesome.  Or (most likely) it might be in the middle.  

 

So, we'll see.  

It all boils down to beating the browns and the cowboys.  First off the 5mil + backup got the job done but. when the 28mil starter could not early.  No excuses about the oline was worst then, if you take away 2 blind side hits at the goal line in the Giants games the outcome could have been different with defenders coming in unblocked.  Wentz is getting his shot, he is the starter with the big bucks from the get go, period. No what ifs, the backup won some big games to be in this postion. He has the same team as the backup has now and maybe easier matchups. Expect nothing less. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I promise you this:

 

If Wentz throws for 158 yards, no touchdowns, a pick and takes 3-4 sacks today, while handing it off 38 times and rides a defense that forces 3 turnovers to victory…

 

I won’t be in here talking about “Wentz won”.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

2. People who made up their mind in February when the trade was made Wentz was the wrong guy and they felt vindicated in their opinion, and they want to continue to feel vindicated.  

I agree with you on this and it’s still the strangest thing to me.  I’m not sure why forum posters care this much about whether their QB opinion holds water.  We all have day jobs that have nothing to do with scouting QB talent.  NFL scouting isn’t in the cards for any of us.

 

I would have absolutely loved to have been wrong about TH.  Why wouldn’t I want a likable dude with a cool story and a cheap contract to kick ass?  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

It all boils down to beating the browns and the cowboys.  First off the 5mil + backup got the job done but. when the 28mil starter could not early.  No excuses about the oline was worst then, if you take away 2 blind side hits at the goal line in the Giants games the outcome could have been different with defenders coming in unblocked.  Wentz is getting his shot, he is the starter with the big bucks from the get go, period. No what ifs, the backup won some big games to be in this postion. He has the same team as the backup has now and maybe easier matchups. Expect nothing less. 

The backup was horrendous.  He didn’t really do anything to win the games, actively participated in losing several, and rode a running game and defense to wins.  
 

And the team wasn’t the same.  Only card carrying Hive members can talk themselves into that fake news.  

[Captain Wiggles]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

NFL scouting isn’t in the cards for any of us.

 

[Redwards]

20 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I listened to all of Keim’s podcasts, read his stuff on ESPN and listen to most of his interviews, and I didn’t hear or read anything like that. Is this something he said today? Traveled up to the game so catching up. So maybe I missed it and if so it’s interesting news because that’s a new twist.

 

Only thing I’ve seen close to that is the article I posted a few days ago where Keim said they prefer not to go fishing for a QB again. 
 

In his radio interviews, Keim has said they’d love for Wentz to shine now and in turn bring him back but suggested that’s far from set in stone and even talked a little about off season QB possibilities 

Yeah.   I read it 2-3 days ago?  It was a tweet or something from him.  Damned if I can remember now.  😆

[Fan since a Fetus]

I had a Heinicke conversation the other day. I criticized his arm strength and the dude said “I’ve seen him throw it 60 yards in the air. That is plenty of arm strength. He’s good.”  LOL….ok…..we don’t need to discuss this any further. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Gibbs there for the coin toss, cool 

[Skinsinparadise]

Heinicke chants are loud right now