The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[KDawg]

Just now, redskinss said:

I get that most fans didn't want wentz and therefore I get that most fans are ready to give up on him for all the reasons that they didn't want him in the first place but from the team perspective, the perspective that wanted him and was willing to give up two 3's one possibly being a second how can you give up on him after just 6 games.

If that's what you thought of him then why sign him in the first place?

If you thought you could rehabilitate him from everything you already knew, what's changed?

I'm still not totally convinced the team has given up on him despite the fact that it seems every fan has.

I myself don't really care either way I'm just not convinced yet he won't be plan A next year.

 

 

my stance has little to do with Wentz himself. I liked picking him up. In his time he played mostly poorly but we had moments of real NFL QB play as well.

 

However, we saw that because of the style of offense we are employing we can win games with a guy like Heinicke. Suddenly, the need to pay $26M in cap space for Wentz who won less games than a guy who most of us think is an average NFL backup, becomes a waste of resources.

 

I concede that Brian Robinson is a major difference maker. I also concede that having Gibson as a more fresh back and receiver helps this offense. And perhaps Wentz can come in and do well still with a similar gameplan. I actually think he could. I think he’s a better QB than Heinicke. I’m not sure the locker room believes in him (but that’s conjecture as I have no idea what the pulse of the locker room is… I base it on how flat they all played when he was QB). 
 

So, for $26M I’d rather shore up the OL.

 

Which is why I think it is absolutely imperative we see Howell this season. If he has the goods we can move forward with a QB room of him, Heinicke and Fromm (unless something special falls in our lap) and acquire the resources to get a top QB in 24 if Howell doesn’t ultimately work. 
 

If Howell doesn’t play well, Wentz may be able to be brought back for a cheaper salary and then we can see what he has to offer if there are no other options to us. 
 

But I’d rather use the entirety of his cap hit on OL/LB/CB.

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Logan Paulsen works for the team, doesn't he?    He's not going to say Turner is awful.    

 

One carry in the red zone for Brian Robinson all year.    Let that sink in for you.    Forget about TH and the O-Line for a minute...

 

Paulsen sounds like a stand up guy to me. Don't think he does favoritism from what I can tell. 

 

@Skinsinparadise Paulsen earlier today on ESPN980 said Turner gets cute in the redzone. I think we all have said that as well. The Taylor sack fumble should have been a run since we only needed like 3 yards and Turner is calling a pass play there. Like you said not all is on Taylor and that is true. Ron saying we need to work on the redzone stuff only to come out after two weeks and nothing to show for. Turner at times tries too hard in the redzone than he needs to I feel. 

[redskinss]

11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

However, we saw that because of the style of offense we are employing we can win games with a guy like Heinicke. Suddenly, the need to pay $26M in cap space for Wentz who won less games than a guy who most of us think is an average NFL backup, becomes a waste of resources.

I get that I just don't see a single thing that's changed from last year.

We already knew that heinicke could win in bursts with good team play around him, we already knew wentz was subject to being sacked at an alarming rate and would cost 28 million against the cap not to mention the multiple picks.

 

I guess maybe they admit they were wrong and cut bait but after only 6 games its essentially saying they knew they wrong even when they did it but made the trade anyway.

Just seems crazy that they did it in the first place and never really even gave it a shot before they gave up.

[FLSkinz83]

32 minutes ago, KDawg said:

But seeing things like he’s a solid QB and then the same poster saying he may not even be a decent starter rubs me wrong in the conversations with people about Heinicke. 

 

I just think my view of solid and your view of solid are different.    There are many QB's I view as solid QB's, but are in that C/C+ range and fall somewhere between 25-35.

 

Those are guys that you can win with if most if not all things around them are working.

 

A decent starter would be in the 18-25 range.  Guys like Carr, Tannehill, Goff

 

A good starter would be in the 11-17 range.  Guys like Cousins, Prescott, Tua

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

No one said yes.  Which doesn’t follow the arguments some folks continuously make in Taylor’s favor. It’s not about liking him or not liking him. We aren’t getting solid, good, hell even decent QB play out of him. 
 

His upside, and it’s been every time he’s had to come in for us in an injury situation, is that he gives you a spark and a few weeks where who he is as a person propels the team forward. Gives them a jolt. I won’t ever deny him that.

 

And truth be told, despite his ratings… having Heinicke as a backup makes sense to me as long as Turner is here. Plus I just like him as a guy. As a coach he is exactly the kind of guy you want in the locker room and in the QB room so the team believes in the backup.

 

The problem is that a pattern is emerging for two years now. Granted two years doesn’t make a rule… but he comes in hot, gets the team rolling and then fades later in the season. Weather? Film catching up? Body getting banged up? I don’t know. I’m not him or there.

 

But he is a spark plug that can give the engine a little extra life. He’s not the engine. 
 

So to your point above (this entire thing is in agreement): Heinicke isn’t an average starter. If he didn’t have his personality and work ethic he wouldn’t be a QB in the NFL. 
 

But he’s a good option for us in our room. I will never **** on him as a guy or for the things he’s helped this franchise achieve in his time.

 

Heck, he may be a guy I talk about as having enjoyed having him on the roster. 
 

But seeing things like he’s a solid QB and then the same poster saying he may not even be a decent starter rubs me wrong in the conversations with people about Heinicke. 

 

Agree with this.

 

We've all had our share of QB debates over the years.    The Heinicke stuff IMO has been the oddest debates.I like him as a backup.  I like him as a dude.  I like to have him on the roster.

 

But in short, there are some who seem to think higher of him than that yet there is a lot of zig and zag in the discussion.     

 

My take is more similar to Cooley which is the dude plays with a lot of heart but his ability is limited, his ceiling is clear -- he is the little engine who could.  He is small by NFL standards.  He has a weak arm by NFL standards.  His accuracy is below average by NFL standards.  He makes more risky throws than the average QB.   

 

A short QB with sketchy accuracy and is unwilling to run typically -- it makes all the sense in the world that he would struggle more in the red zone where things are more condensed and the sight lines are tougher.  Plenty of people who know much more about offense than me have talked about it.  

 

Why it feels weird compared to other QB debates is that there are some people who consistently defend Taylor and shoot down the criticisms of Taylor's play -- and either blame external things for much of his struggles or accuse others of hating. 

 

Yet when cornered to summarize the QB, they back off of giving them a grade or accede that they are a backup.  So I'll give props for @FLSkinz83for answering the grade question because others from what I recall didn't take you up on it.  So this isn't directed to him.  It's not really directed to anyone specific.  It's just the vibe of this debate hits me odd whether here or on twitter compared to some other QB debates over the years. 

 

It's like me saying I love this Italian restaurant's pizza. Yes the lasagne is good too.  Wait, you guys think their meatball hero sucks, you are crazy, its fine, why are you hating on it? And I'll defend the food nonstop.  Then you hit back saying hey this restaurant isn't very good, why are you saying otherwise.  And I respond, did I ever say it was good?   I am just trying to be balanced and real.😀

 

That's a dude below who interacts with people on twitter and runs a fan site.  Interesting that he sees Heinicke as polarizing.  The thing is I don't think he's polarizing at all as a backup but so many arguments bleed into we can win with him as a starter or he deserve most of the credit for wins and stuff like that which is what elicits the debate.

 

Feels like some want to make the case that Heinicke is indeed a legit starter in this league but will back off when cornered and say hey we never said that -- we said the food is good but we didn't say the restaurant is good.  So it ends up I think the oddest debates of all the QB debates I can recall over the years because the goal posts move.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

Paulsen sounds like a stand up guy to me. Don't think he does favoritism from what I can tell. 

 

@Skinsinparadise Paulsen earlier today on ESPN980 said Turner gets cute in the redzone. I think we all have said that as well. The Taylor sack fumble should have been a run since we only needed like 3 yards and Turner is calling a pass play there. Like you said not all is on Taylor and that is true. Ron saying we need to work on the redzone stuff only to come out after two weeks and nothing to show for. Turner at times tries too hard in the redzone than he needs to I feel. 

 

I haven't listened to him on 980 today but listened to his longish podcast on it.  But nothing you said there flies against the summary I gave from the podcast.  He basically said Turner is OK in the red zone, not good, not bad.  And mentioned some of the good and some of the bad.   He said Turner gets too cute outside the red zone, too.  He was more harsh on Heinicke.

 

But look forgetting that, we don't need to know that much if a QB's accuracy is 31% and record breaking bad in the low red zone -- that's clearly bad.  It's hard for me to blame that on Turner. 

 

Rivera clearly is zoned in on Heinicke for being part of the problem with the red zone.  Heck you don't have to be some super detective to read between the lines that Rivera basically told Heinicke improve on Saturday or he will be benched with the red zone being the theme of why.  

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I don’t really care about ‘dividing the fanbase’, in fact some of the discourse is hilarious.  I really don’t care to have him back primarily because I don’t really enjoy watching him play 98% of the time.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t really care about ‘dividing the fanbase’, in fact some of the discourse is hilarious.  I really don’t care to have him back primarily because I don’t really enjoy watching him play 98% of the time.

 

He's a lot of fun in the last drive or two.  But often painful leading up to it -- 90% of the game is a rough watch typically.   

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

A while back, several of us were discussing how his physical limitations are a significant burden in the red zone, and were met with rather rabid responses arguing the opposite. 
 

Here we are, several weeks later and still can’t score in the red zone.  Almost like a lack of arm talent indeed is a huge negative in tight space.  But nah, we were just ‘haters’.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'll give this to Heinicke, he was better for Terry than Wentz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

To be clear, I agree that TH is limited and has a ceiling.  He will not grow 3 inches or have a cannon arm.

 

But I think his production can be better than We've seen if we had better pass protection and/or better O-Coordinator.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Hurts, Kirk and Geno.  i don't hate any of the three but it also shows that the ceiling for QB play is lower than years past.  No more Aaron in his prime, Russell Wilson, etc.  

 

 

 

[MrJL]

I have no interest in spending the resources it would take to significantly upgrade from Heinicke till we're completely sure the guy we're getting is better.  That means an average size contract for a free agent or a draft pick that doesn't require tanking or selling the farm to get

 

that is why I want Heinicke over anyone else

Edited December 22, 2022 by MrJL

[rumplestilskin]

1 hour ago, FLSkinz83 said:

To be clear, I agree that TH is limited and has a ceiling.  He will not grow 3 inches or have a cannon arm.

 

But I think his production can be better than We've seen if we had better pass protection and/or better O-Coordinator.

 

 

I agree with this. IMO it is hard to judge with total conviction based on coaching decisions and our current sitch on the Oline. BTW I am not sure we would have lost if we called all BRob runs last game. Not even kidding a little. How good would BRob be with a decent OLine? I am picking up Johnathan Taylor vibes from him as far as next year goes. As far as coaching, I was warming up to Turner but he lost me again after last week. Pound the ****ing rock and stop being cute. Jeez.  Let BRob do BRob and allow Heiny to play to his strengths and limit his weaknesses with the easy third down shortys and play action.  Alas, Scott's plan backfired and we lost but I truly believe he was attempting to throw smoke and mirrors to the 9ers with the idea that Kyle Shanny would be distracted by what we are not. NEWS FLASH...We are not dynamic, nor is Heiny special but at least Turner should recognize this and put his players in positions where they can succeed. That is soley on him. And for the love of God I hope he realizes Curtis Samuel is not Deebo Samuel. Now that the cat is out of the bag and Turner is admitting he ****ed up, will the 9ers be able to stop the BRob show next week? I doubt it if our D shows up.

Edited December 22, 2022 by rumplestilskin

[FootballZombie]

Let TH leave.

 

I don't wanna watch QB play that bad anymore. Its a cruel form of punishment.

 

There are plenty of meh-level QBs we could get for 5ish million that will/have performed at a higher rate then he has.

[zCommander]

Not sure if anyone listens to JP's podcast where he sits down with Ron on a weekly basis.  

Here is the link: https://art19.com/shows/washington-football 

The sit down starts at the 37:30 mark. 

 

Two bullet points on Taylor. 

 

What do you think of Taylor’s performance?

I thought it had it’s moment. Lots of positive moments. Need to secure the ball a little better. We took some shots and we got two of those shots and were pretty big.  If we had gotten the ball to Curtis a little cleaner that would have been catch and a run for a TD.

 

On Taylor starting 20 games so far.

We need to play to his strength and continue to do that. He is not going to able to do stuff as well as the other guy. That is what we have tried to do. We need to make sure we don’t get behind the chains. That has helped him and the stuff he does has been beneficial. But when we get behind and the stuff he does is not as quite beneficial.

[NoCalMike]

The main issue with Heinicke for me is that originally the main downside was all about his physical limitations, but he supposedly made up for it with his mobility, knowledge of the offense, and.......moxie.  The problem is we aren't seeing a lot of the first two on film anymore from him.  He is running less than ever and he is missing open receivers all over the place, throwing into coverage when there are open guys etc etc......if you combine that with the physical stuff that can't be coached away, it is a recipe for disaster the longer he is in there as the fill-in starter.   

 

QB2's have a shelf life as starters, it is just a fact, and his is getting long in the tooth.

[skins island connection]

45 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The main issue with Heinicke for me is that originally the main downside was all about his physical limitations, but he supposedly made up for it with his mobility, knowledge of the offense, and.......moxie.  The problem is we aren't seeing a lot of the first two on film anymore from him.  He is running less than ever and he is missing open receivers all over the place, throwing into coverage when there are open guys etc etc......if you combine that with the physical stuff that can't be coached away, it is a recipe for disaster the longer he is in there as the fill-in starter.   

 

QB2's have a shelf life as starters, it is just a fact, and his is getting long in the tooth.

 

 Do you think that TH';s lack of mobility is coming from the coaching staff, telling him to try his best to stay and trust the pocket?

Only reason i'm saying that is we've all seen TH scrambling out of the pocket and making split-decision plays, even taking off and running. I can't imagine he'd want to stay behind a line that isn't good at protecting him.

On Turner, its a rarity to see Robinson or Gibson taking a pitch-out or cutting across bouncing it outside; its just a plow through the line best you can. Especially on a team that over-pursues

[zCommander]

NFL QB Index, Week 16:

 

Rank

20

UP 2 Spots

 

Taylor Heinicke

Washington Commanders · Year 5

2022 stats: 8 games | 61.4 pct | 1,693 pass yds | 7.0 ypa | 10 pass TD | 5 INT | 100 rush yds | 1 rush TD | 6 fumbles

 

Heinicke's hot-and-cold act was on display in Sunday night's bitter loss to the Giants. Minutes after firing a pretty 61-yard deep shot to Jahan Dotson, Heinicke fumbled away the ball in the red zone. That came midway through the fourth quarter, long after Washington's quarterback was separated from the football by Kayvon Thibodeaux, New York's emerging rookie pass rusher who recovered his own handiwork and barreled in for a 1-yard score. Still, it wasn't Heinicke's decision to punt from New York's 34- and 40-yard line early in the affair. And it wasn't Heinicke who failed to call Darnay Holmes for defensive pass interference on the quarterback's final prayer dart to Curtis Samuel. 

 

[Est.1974]

5 hours ago, zCommander said:

Not sure if anyone listens to JP's podcast where he sits down with Ron on a weekly basis.  

Here is the link: https://art19.com/shows/washington-football 

The sit down starts at the 37:30 mark. 

 

Two bullet points on Taylor. 

 

What do you think of Taylor’s performance?

I thought it had it’s moment. Lots of positive moments. Need to secure the ball a little better. We took some shots and we got two of those shots and were pretty big.  If we had gotten the ball to Curtis a little cleaner that would have been catch and a run for a TD.

 

On Taylor starting 20 games so far.

We need to play to his strength and continue to do that. He is not going to able to do stuff as well as the other guy. That is what we have tried to do. We need to make sure we don’t get behind the chains. That has helped him and the stuff he does has been beneficial. But when we get behind and the stuff he does is not as quite beneficial.

That is far from complementary really. 

[PolarExpress]

10 hours ago, redskinss said:

I get that most fans didn't want wentz and therefore I get that most fans are ready to give up on him for all the reasons that they didn't want him in the first place but from the team perspective, the perspective that wanted him and was willing to give up two 3's one possibly being a second how can you give up on him after just 6 games.

If that's what you thought of him then why sign him in the first place?

If you thought you could rehabilitate him from everything you already knew, what's changed?

I'm still not totally convinced the team has given up on him despite the fact that it seems every fan has.

I myself don't really care either way I'm just not convinced yet he won't be plan A next year.

 

 

Speaking for myself, I never wanted him.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

That is far from complementary really. 

 

I was about to say the same, it was really wishy washy.  Typically, regardless of what the coach feels about the player they back them publicly without much of a disclaimer. 

 

Feels like no doubt, Taylor is on a short leash this weekend. 

 

The props I'll give Taylor is I do think he plays his best when under the gun.  I gather the message is clear that he needs to hang it all out versus SF, i think that will likely bring out his best. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

We could be a game and a half behind the cowboys walking strong into the playoffs, but we scored 12 ****ing points and dudes are still defending Heini.

 

[GoDeep81]

How many times do we punt per game, with TH? Hearing how unwatchable he is for 90% of the game, just wondering. I think it's gut wrenching as well, watching a slow boring drive down the field. But, after being a fan for 50+ years, you tend to overlook the gut punches if the end results are anything other then embarrassing defeat. I definitely hope we sticks as the backup, if the rest of the establishment is the same. 

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

We could be a game and a half behind the cowboys walking strong into the playoffs, but we scored 12 ****ing points and dudes are still defending Heini.

 

And thats 12 points gross.

2 really if you're counting net.