The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[tmandoug1]

We will win 17-16 just because thats how we roll.. Niners lose.

[El Mexican]

20 hours ago, mistertim said:

He's not the main reason we won those games.

 

You know damn well as I do that there's a direct correlation between the teams improvement across the board and TH coming in for an injured Wentz.

Two sides of the same coin that are impossible to separate.

 

There's a clear A/B test here between Wentz and TH.

 

I'm taking TH.

[HogsVa7]

42 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Heinicke is struggling against some of the worst defenses in the NFL, the 49ers, best defense in the NFL, is likely going to be a brutal match up 

 

The 49ers defense has been doing this all year. Hopefully we have a great game plan 

[SoCalSkins]

After we win Sunday night it will be the best 9 game stretch for the team since the 1991 Super Bowl season. 7-1-1.  TH4 gets the lions share of the credit.

 

8 minutes ago, HogsVa7 said:

The 49ers defense has been doing this all year. Hopefully we have a great game plan 

At least Heinicke can dance around. Wentz would be eaten alive. 

[CommanderCarson]

4 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

After we win Sunday night it will be the best 9 game stretch for the team since the 1991 Super Bowl season. 7-1-1.  TH4 gets the lions share of the credit.

 

At least Heinicke can dance around. Wentz would be eaten alive. 

If we win I’ll read all week that heineke is a dead man walking against San Fran and that it’s only a matter of time!

[SoCalSkins]

12 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

If we win I’ll read all week that heineke is a dead man walking against San Fran and that it’s only a matter of time!

We will dominate Purdy and the 49ers. Heinicke steps up to the competition level. I’m just hoping we don’t get too ****y and show up flat for the rematch in the wild card round. 

[Conn]

28 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

After we win Sunday night it will be the best 9 game stretch for the team since the 1991 Super Bowl season. 7-1-1.  TH4 gets the lions share of the credit.

 

[BraveWarrior]

24 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

We will dominate Purdy and the 49ers. Heinicke steps up to the competition level. I’m just hoping we don’t get too ****y and show up flat for the rematch in the wild card round. 

Really? Hmm. I just finished watching Bosa and the Niners beat Seattle. I think Bosa will end the game wearing a necklace made of Heinie's teeth.  

[SoCalSkins]

10 minutes ago, BraveWarrior said:

Really? Hmm. I just finished watching Bosa and the Niners beat Seattle. I think Bosa will end the game wearing a necklace made of Heinie's teeth.  

That may be the case but I have a feeling we are going to dominate them. Eagles are a more balanced team and we did well in Philly. Stadium will be full of Skins fan too. Whenever we play near the west coast it’s a massive take over. I will be there. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, El Mexican said:

 

You know damn well as I do that there's a direct correlation between the teams improvement across the board and TH coming in for an injured Wentz.

Two sides of the same coin that are impossible to separate.

 

There's a clear A/B test here between Wentz and TH.

 

I'm taking TH.

 

What's the direct correlation? Please explain it in specific terms, without throwing out words like "moxie".

 

It's clear that Turner is intentionally limiting what he's asking TH to do, and we're relying mostly on the run game with some short and intermediate play action passes mixed in here and there.

 

TH has had a healthy BRob, a healthier OL, and a revamped defense to lean on heavily. He's not asked to do all that much.

[BraveWarrior]

3 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

That may be the case but I have a feeling we are going to dominate them. Eagles are a more balanced team and we did well in Philly. Stadium will be full of Skins fan too. Whenever we play near the west coast it’s a massive take over. I will be there. 

I don't think we've shown that we can be consistently good enough to think we're ready to "dominate" superior opponents. Everything came together for us when we beat Philly, and they were flat that night. We had luck on our side too, getting calls and breaks that normally go against us going for us. But remember, the Eagles smacked us in the mouth earlier in the season. And, the Cowboys handled us pretty easily as well. Can we win against the Giants without giving our absolute best effort? Maybe. Beating the 49ers with anything less than a near perfect game from everyone in all three phases? Improbable. 

 

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Soon I’m going to read posts that Taylor is responsible for the sky being blue.

 

 

 

The sky is actually violet. Taylor is not responsible for how you see it though. 

[petey hodge]

29 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

The sky is actually violet. Taylor is not responsible for how you see it though. 

Yeah, I dont really got the time or calories to think about what is contributing to our recent run of success.

 

All I know is that we go to war with the Army we got now... not the personnel package we had when we were 1-4.  TH is part of that strike package on the offense, sadly.. (or happily), so we stick with the combo that gives us the best chance at success.

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

After we win Sunday night it will be the best 9 game stretch for the team since the 1991 Super Bowl season. 7-1-1.  TH4 gets the lions share of the credit.

 

Top 3 defense

Top 5 rushing offense

Bottom 10 passing offense

 

"TH4 gets the lion share of the credit"

 

[757SeanTaylor21]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Top 3 defense

Top 5 rushing offense

Bottom 10 passing offense

 

Where do you get we have a top 5 rushing offense?

Edited December 16, 2022 by 757SeanTaylor21

[zCommander]

29 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Top 3 defense

Top 5 rushing offense

Bottom 10 passing offense

 

"TH4 gets the lion share of the credit"

 

 

Our rushing is ranked 14th in total yards. #1 are the Bears and then the Eagles and then Ravens, Falcons and 5th are the Browns.

 

Are you like only counting the last 5 or 6 games only?

[FootballZombie]

Only credit I give TH for our success is the ability to hold onto the reigns as he is dragged along behind this team. A dude who completes passes at lower league levels and lower league production all while he hands the ball off 40 times is not a reason for our success.

 

We give that dude a kids steering wheel and let him sit in the passengers seat.

[KDawg]

7 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

We will dominate Purdy and the 49ers. Heinicke steps up to the competition level. I’m just hoping we don’t get too ****y and show up flat for the rematch in the wild card round. 

 

Is this a schtick? It has to be a schtick.

 

Also, I hear Heinicke almost went to USC.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

If we win I’ll read all week that heineke is a dead man walking against San Fran and that it’s only a matter of time!

You are going to read that all week no matter what happens, because it’s a logical take.  I’d argue the only potential X factor is if Taylor decides to start using his legs.  If he’s determined to pass from the pocket, the 49ers are precisely the team to make him pay for inaccurate throws.  

 

Obviously, it’d be great if for whatever reason we can successfully run the football down their throats and not need TH to do much.  But chances are slim on that.

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Only credit I give TH for our success is the ability to hold onto the reigns as he is dragged along behind this team. A dude who completes passes at lower league levels and lower league production all while he hands the ball off 40 times is not a reason for our success.

 

We give that dude a kids steering wheel and let him sit in the passengers seat.

 

I do kind of agree with the others that Heinicke is a big part of why we're winning.

 

But that doesn't mean I think he is a necessary part of the soup moving forward, him coming in and starting absolutely helped turn us around. 

 

Why? The insertion of Heinicke into the lineup did two things. 1) It provided a spark to the players and the locker room. This team was DOA until a guy they loved was inserted into the lineup. 2) It forced Turner to find our offensive identity and manufacture gameplans that highlighted that. He no longer had the QB with the arm to push the field vertically. The quicker release passes, a QB with mobility and a heavy focus on the running game helped us dominate TOP and win with rushing and defense.

 

I doubt we change our plan if Wentz is still the QB.

 

But, now, on the flip side: Now that we know the formula for success, would Wentz have a similar amount of success as Heinicke? Not sure. He'd definitely stretch the field vertically and make defenses defend the whole field. But that also means our interior OL has to protect for longer because Wentz needs the time to throw. Spoiler alert: They won't. But if they did it's hard to argue that Wentz in a run focused gameplan wouldn't be better than Heinicke as it pertains to playaction passing and stretching the field. 

 

It's a tough conversation to have because there are so many variables and not as clear cut as many want it to be. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

1) It provided a spark to the players and the locker room. This team was DOA until a guy they loved was inserted into the lineup.

My only argument here is that this only happens because of #2.  Winning breeds love, no matter how it happens.  If they started the season winning with Wentz, they’d love him too.

 

I do agree with #2 though.  Wentz injury likely saved the season by forcing Turner to pull the emergency brake on the offense.  It gets overlooked because a lot of folks don’t like him, but to craft up the game plans that have allowed this team to be competitive, deserves the bulk of the credit.  Even if it’s Ron putting the emphasis on running the ball, Turner grinding it out and finding ways to get guys high school open for Heinicke deserves a standing ovation.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 

I do agree with #2 though.  Wentz injury likely saved the season by forcing Turner to pull the emergency brake on the offense.  It gets overlooked because a lot of folks don’t like him, but to craft up the game plans that have allowed this team to be competitive, deserves the bulk of the credit.  Even if it’s Ron putting the emphasis on running the ball, Turner grinding it out and finding ways to get guys high school open for Heinicke deserves a standing ovation.

 

 

 

Logan Paulsen who studied this offense extensively was really critical of Turner's game planning for Wentz.  But feels that he turned a corner for his game planning for Heinicke -- he's been very complementary.

 

Comes off like Turner struggles with coming up with a let it fly type offense but running a Marty Ball style offense is his wheelhouse -- he doesn't just complement the philosophy but also how he orchestrates the run plays and pass plays, etc.

 

I mentioned this before but when they were playing in this style last year I zoned it on the run game when I was at a live game and I was impressed how I couldn't really predict where they were running to -- I'd think for example the TE going into motion in one direction was a tell but it wasn't.  

[KDawg]

18 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My only argument here is that this only happens because of #2.  Winning breeds love, no matter how it happens.  If they started the season winning with Wentz, they’d love him too.

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. But Heinicke has come into the lineup in moments they've needed a spark and they generally play well for awhile and then start to fall off. This year, the difference is Brian Robinson. Having a work horse back can help slow the fade. But yes, if they were winning with Wentz this wouldn't be a conversation. But they weren't.

 

Quote

I do agree with #2 though.  Wentz injury likely saved the season by forcing Turner to pull the emergency brake on the offense.  It gets overlooked because a lot of folks don’t like him, but to craft up the game plans that have allowed this team to be competitive, deserves the bulk of the credit.  Even if it’s Ron putting the emphasis on running the ball, Turner grinding it out and finding ways to get guys high school open for Heinicke deserves a standing ovation.

 

Yup. There's a dual argument here, too.

 

One side: If Turner was a good OC than they would have recognized the correct path in the beginning was a heavy focus on the run game and stuck with that. Rebuttal: "Brian Robinson was hurt, though... That effected the plan". 

 

Other side: Good coaches adjust and Turner did. Rebuttal: But situational playcalling is still lacking.

 

People are going to be upset no matter what. 

 

Heinicke's skillset is perfect for this offense in the sense that it forces us to do what we are best built to do: Rack up TOP and play aggressive style defense. That's not to say we can't upgrade at QB. We can. Heinicke isn't great. But some of the ingredients in the soup absolutely create a soup that you can eat. His knowledge of the system, the moxie (likeability, clutch, cold blooded stuff) and his limitations and strengths fall directly in line with what we need them to for this team to find success.

 

But at the same time, his weaknesses hurt us against the higher powered teams in the league. We can't get in shoot outs with Heinicke. If we do, he has to be using his legs to create extra opportunities for our playmakers to make plays by extending drives. More plays = more opportunities. 

 

This isn't me advocating for Howell, the truth is I have no idea what's going on with his development. But I am going to comment on Howell's style of play: It is exactly what this offense needs to take the next step. Strong arm, escapability, ability to read coverages. He can do what Heinicke can and what Wentz can (again, I am talking skillsets, so to explain...):

 

Wentz: Strong arm

Heinicke: Escapability

 

Now, there are some things in the skillset that are lacking: Footwork on varying drops, experience.

 

But that is the kind of QB that will take this offense to the next level. Lamar Jackson would work well here if it weren't for the massive contract. Anthony Richardson is a guy that would fit here stylistically (but he's lacking experience, mechanics, etc.). Bryce Young would be a literal perfect fit. 

 

I've been on the fence more often than I'd like on the Heinicke debate... Some people give him no credit. Some give him too much credit. Generally, I side with the group that says he's not a great quarterback. But the guy absolutely is part of the recipe that helped turn things around so the people who don't give him an iota of credit I can't really side with. His skillset fits what we need and its working advantageously for us at the moment. Doesn't mean it always will. When we need to challenge vertically and teams defend it we're in a load of trouble. So I can't defend Heinicke as our guy for the long term because it just isn't sustainable. But he absolutely helps with this specific recipe. 

 

But not to the tune of him being the savior that some seem to think of him as. He is NFL quarterback that can make it work in the league but is best suited to a backup role. But I'm glad we have him for now. Also can't wait to upgrade him. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by KDawg

[88Comrade2000]

Taylor will have that 3 int game and probably gets benched at some point or even gets knocked out of the game; when we play San Fran.

[Skinsinparadise]

The irony about Wentz is the Colts went through a similar rodeo last season.

 

Some here thought Frank Reich has Wentz figured out all wrong and the way to play him was like you got Dan Marino -- 40 plus throws a game and let it all hang. 

 

But the Colts started winning when they instead started majoring in the run game and used Wentz more as a game manager.  Maybe Reich who was considered at the time the dude who knew Wentz the most, wasnot that dense about him.

 

To me its a hard call between Wentz and Taylor if (and only if) Taylor loses a game he should win like this game on Sunday.  If they win keep him in there.

 

With Wentz

 

A. They can take advantage of the run game by stretching the field off of play action -- Mark Rypien style.

 

B.  I think he can tear apart or come close to doing it versus weak secondaries ala what he did in against Jacksoville, the Titans and the 2nd half against the Lions in ways that Taylor can't.  Taylor has been medicore or less against really all secondaries, it doesn' matter if its a good or bad defense, they all contain him.

 

C.  He'd provide a slight upgrade as to actualy posing as a running threat in a game.  Sounds crazy but the stats show it.

 

With Heinicke

 

A.  He provides a spark to the team as for his personality.  As I mentioned before, Wentz is a flat personality and the offense seems to match his flatness.

 

B.  He's clutch.  Wentz isn't.  So in big moments and big games, i am sort of expecting Wentz to fold whereas I expect that big play from Taylor.

 

C.  Better pocket presence than Wentz IMO and more wiggle in the pocket to deal with the pass rush.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise