The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Peregrine]

52 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Yeah we should probably pump some of the brakes on the Heinicke uber-praise.  He had a pretty good 2nd half, but there was nothing about his performance overall that looked new or different or surprising.  It just re-iterates that he is who he is and there is a ceiling there.  With the defense and running game, it is going to help him out immensely, and the biggest factor for me was that once they took the lead they never played from behind the entire rest of the game. That is HUGE for this style of offense.

 

Let's make a comparison to the 49ers with Jimmy G.   Jimmy G running the ship for that offense has some similar aspects to the Commanders with Heinicke. Both QB's seem to play a lot better when the teams have the lead and can use ball control and a stout defense to keep the games close and winnable.  However, you saw how quick the 49ers offense fell apart once they got behind to the Chiefs and once they started having to pass the ball more and show that urgency.  

 

I think Heinicke should be capable to lead this team over the Colts and go into the Minnesota game 4-4.  How that game plays out, to me, largely depends on the performance of the defense.  The Commanders have a very good 2-headed monster forming at RB, but how much you can rely on all those carries is largely going to depend on the defense locking the Vikings offense down.

 

To be clear, I am not down on Heinicke, at all, I just largely viewed his performance yesterday as exactly what we have seen from him in the past, which is capable, but not great.

By "Uber-praise" you mean people saying Heinicke is the best QB on our roster because the others are bad, and gives us a shot at winning due to being a good backup?  Or a made up straw man?  That hes 8-8 as as a starter and so therefore one of the best QBs of the Snyder era by sad sheer adequacy?

 

Also...........if you were a QB who didnt have much experience, and you hadnt gotten any snaps at all with the first team all season long, but were actually talented enough to overcome struggles, which part of your first game would you be expected to have a tough time in?  The beginning?  The middle?  The end?  People blast the start of the game without giving half a second thought to ration or reason and that people arent robots.  You cant criticize other fans for not being "reasonable" or "rational" about expectations and then show you arent willing to do so yourself.

[SkinsFTW]

11 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

To see if the guy who has 91 games of tape and 7 seasons starting in the NFL will improve?  This sounds like when you defended Bruce.

 

Or kinda like how Doofus Dan expected Schottenheimer to give Jeff George another shot.

 

Maybe he'll get fired if he doesn't go back to Wince.

[Dark Acre]

At least we won't be hearing anymore sanctimony from Irsay about how much of an upgrade Matt Ryan is.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

46 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

To see if the guy who has 91 games of tape and 7 seasons starting in the NFL will improve?  This sounds like when you defended Bruce.

 

He doesn't have 91 games in this scheme. He has six, behind a wafer-thin OL.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Dark Acre said:

At least we won't be hearing anymore sanctimony from Irsay about how much of an upgrade Matt Ryan is.  

 

That's true but it looks like they are another in a list of teams that got the better of us in a deal for a QB so tough for me to make fun of them.

 

I do think all the Colts players and Colts beat writers who hyped Ryan as Peyton Manning part 2 based on how he looked in camp look especially ridiiculous.  

 

I'll give though that if Ryan has a strained shoulder which i've seen reported somewhere -- its a painful injury.  I've had other injuries including multiple hernias in my lifetime.  I strained my shoulder about 2 months ago and it still bothers me, worst injury I've experienced, because the shoulder also shoots up your arm, so its a really delicate spot.

 

I can't really play football with my kid among other things.  So I'll give Ryan some props if he's been playing through that.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

8 hours ago, Dark Acre said:

At least we won't be hearing anymore sanctimony from Irsay about how much of an upgrade Matt Ryan is.  

I hope Irsay keeps it going. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

I did, too, and got blasted on this thread for it lol...

 

I leaned positive on Wentz.  But I was unsure and I think pretty balanced.  I was also critical of the deal, I felt they overpaid.  I put a lot of the critical stuff about Wentz on this thread after the trade, along with the positive.

 

I didn't think and still don't that he's the joke-punchline of a player that the national media believe he is.  But to my eyes he looks average at best -- and for 28 million a year, you aren't paying that kind of money for that type of play. 

 

The thing that disappoints me the most is the lack of tempo-oomph that he plays with -- and his mobility looks totally shot.  He's not accurate enough or have enough pocket presence IMO to be a pure pocket passer.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[justice98]

Fun fact, in the last 20 years, only 2 QBs here have a record of .500 or better as a starting QB: Alex Smith and Taylor Heinicke. 

That's even allowing for a spot start guy to be 1-0.  Nope.  Heinicke is 8-8, with a chance to go above .500 against the Colts.

 

I'm no Heinicke truther, but the record when he plays suggests your best chance to win is when he's out there.  

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

I hope Irsay keeps it going. 

…..how would he keep it going, when matt Ryan is done for the season?

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

4 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

…..how would he keep it going, when matt Ryan is done for the season?

Man's gotta prove a point. 

[justice98]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The thing that disappoints me the most is the lack of tempo-oomph that he plays with -- and his mobility looks totally shot.  He's not accurate enough or have enough pocket presence IMO to be a pure pocket passer.

 

 

 

Agreed.  If you're gonna be immobile, you'd better be Drew Brees and hit people in the numbers. His game seems predicated on hitting the big play to make up for missing so many of the little ones.

[Warhead36]

Yeah its mind boggling how slow he looks now. I know he's not the athlete he used to be but he's basically a complete statue back there.

 

And to make matters worse, he PLAYS slow too. Some guys might be physically slow but they play fast. Like Brady for example. Or end of career Brees.

 

Wentz is physically slow, plays slow, and likes to hold on to the ball for the big play, behind an OL that can't pass protect. Pretty much the worst of all worlds.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah its mind boggling how slow he looks now. I know he's not the athlete he used to be but he's basically a complete statue back there.

 

And to make matters worse, he PLAYS slow too. Some guys might be physically slow but they play fast. Like Brady for example. Or end of career Brees.

 

Wentz is physically slow, plays slow, and likes to hold on to the ball for the big play, behind an OL that can't pass protect. Pretty much the worst of all worlds.

 

When the Lions players said Wentz was a statue.  That's not paraphrasing them, one player actually said it.  And that Wentz was much easier to play against then Hurts was the week before -- that was the first alarm bell for me this season.

[tshile]

To the people complaining about the Heinicke hate:

honestly I just see a bunch of people pointing out he’s not and likely never will be a top 1/3 of the league starter. Which. Is a completely reasonable take. And most of them comment that they like Heinicke and his story - he’s just got a low ceiling. 
 

to the people complaining about the Heinicke praise:

honestly I just see a bunch of people enjoying a good story about a huge underdog getting a chance, in a season where we have nothing to lose cause we always suck, and that wentz is a ****ty quarterback. I don’t see many, if any, acting like this guy will be a top 1/3 of the league starter and our new hope

 

 

seriously you all spend so much time creating strawmans and exaggerating others’ opinions

 

just work with what people say and instead of trying to act super smart like you see the future, just work with what we see on the field. 
 

[tshile]

26 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah its mind boggling how slow he looks now. I know he's not the athlete he used to be but he's basically a complete statue back there.

It’s because he can’t read the defense

 

cooley was on this early in the year with film breakdowns. He tempered his criticism and left other options (like maybe Scott Turner is bad at play calling and design)

 

buy reading between the lines and following it every week it became pretty clear wentz cannot read these defenses. The 3-3-5 is taking hold in the nfl (expect a resurgence of the running game in the league since it can’t stop NFL run games). But Cooley said when you first see it, it’s very confusing, because by the time you get to survey the field in your drop back it “just looks like there’s <defenders> everywhere”

 

I get he’s not a mobile as he used to be, but he couldn’t move to check downs. He couldn’t adjust at the line. And he looked like a statue because he flat out couldn’t figure out where to go with the ball 

 

and Heinicke is all the evidence you need. Dudes got a weaker arm but he throws to spots and throws people open simply because he reads the defense better and understands the play design concepts better. He’s not great at it - which combined with it’s his weaker arm will create things like the pic-6 and multiple dropped interceptions. 
 

but his ability to get the ball in the playmakers hands shows you the problem with wentz is all mental. 
 

he would also panic and throw rockets to guys on 2-5 yard routes, which Cooley said is really hard to catch

 

[DJHJR86]

12 minutes ago, tshile said:

but his ability to get the ball in the playmakers hands shows you the problem with wentz is all mental. 

 

Yep.

 

Back when he was mobile, he could escape pressure and play "backyard football" a la Rodgers and Mahomes and go the hero ball route and it worked.  He was never really good at ready defenses, but he could escape pressure.  Now that he's immobile, he's just a quarterback who can throw a ball far.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

Fun fact, in the last 20 years, only 2 QBs here have a record of .500 or better as a starting QB: Alex Smith and Taylor Heinicke. 

That's even allowing for a spot start guy to be 1-0.  Nope.  Heinicke is 8-8, with a chance to go above .500 against the Colts.

 

I'm no Heinicke truther, but the record when he plays suggests your best chance to win is when he's out there.  

 

 

I've long felt that there's a yet-to-be-discovered advanced analytic that shows how guys like Alex Smith and Taylor Heinicke can lead their teams to winning records while at the helm.  Some mixture of big 3rd down plays in the 2nd half of games and how the other team has to be able to account for their mobility so it opens up the run game, etc.  

 

But at this point, it's undeniable that with his record he really does give us the best opportunity to win games while he's out there.  I'm not sure why that is, just like I didn't understand how Alex Smith would win games without gaudy stats.  But they win when these guys are under center.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Wentz looked worse in this offense than he did last year in Indy.  
 

For a guy who already holds the ball too long to both lose his mobility and need to learn an entirely new system, with the middle of his OL destroyed, it was a match made in hell.

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[redskinss]

I'm not as convinced as everybody else around here that the Wentz experience is over.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be just that I wouldn't bet the farm that we won't see wentz playing for this team ever again. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by redskinss

[Spaceman Spiff]

5 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I'm not as convinced as everybody else around here that the Wentz experience is over.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be just that I wouldn't bet the farm that we won't see wentz playing for this team ever again. 

 

I think there's a sliver of a chance that he suits up again later this season.  But if Heinicke plays like he did last weekend, especially playing like he did in the 2nd half and keeps the team in games, wins a few games, there's no need to bring Wentz back this year.  

 

If Heinicke plays awful and the team keeps losing, there's still no need to bring Wentz back unless perhaps it's in relief during a game.  

 

But at some point if it's all going to ****, they gotta give Howell a shot.  

 

I don't think there's any way that Wentz is back next season.  IIRC, he can be cut without a cap penalty for next season, right?  So you roll into 2023 with Heinicke, Howell, high QB draft pick and/or a Fitzy option.  

[skinny21]

Have to say, I feel pretty bad for Wentz.  Yes, I know he’s got tons of money to minimize his heartache, but the dude went through an offseason of ridicule, came in with a good attitude to a team with a nice set of weapons, and it all goes to ****.  The offense is a massive transition, the oline falls off big time, and he becomes a tackling dummy.  Then Heinicke comes in and both plays well and fires the team up.

 

With all of that said, my biggest concern was what @tshile shared from Cooley - reading defenses.  Warner’s breakdown this offseason was (IIRC) just a one off of the Jags game, so I hoped maybe it wasn’t indicative of his overall play.  Not something I could really hone in on during games, but it seems like it’s continued.  I still think he could be a decent qb behind a better oline and with an offense he’s more comfortable with, but those things aren’t likely happening anytime soon here.  And of course his lack of mobility is pretty startling.  Anyway, it’s a shame.

Edited October 25, 2022 by skinny21

[Spaceman Spiff]

10 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Have to say, I feel pretty bad for Wentz.  Yes, I know he’s got tons of money to minimize his heartache, but the dude went through an offseason of ridicule, came in with a good attitude to a team with a nice set of weapons, and it all goes to ****.  The offense is a massive transition, the oline falls off big time, and he becomes a tackling dummy.  Then Heinicke comes in and both plays well and fires the team up.

 

 

 

I do feel a bit bad for him, too.  And I'm not one to sympathize with professional athletes all too often but it's hard not to feel bad for the guy.

 

All offseason we heard rumblings about how his teammates didn't like him, problem in the locker room, etc. 

 

And none of that came to pass here.  By all accounts he was a model citizen, teammates like him, respected him, etc.  And then he went out and got the **** kicked out of him, some of it was his fault, some of it wasn't but he never not once complained about it.  And the last time we saw him he was playing with a busted finger on a Thursday night in a sloppy, uninteresting contest against the Bears where he laid out a nasty block on Roquan Smith, something that's certainly not in his job description but he didn't give a ****, he wanted to win.

 

He played hard, his teammates seemed to like him and that's all anyone can really ask for.   

[HigSkin]

Well, here we are back to Heinicke and a rook playing "one game at a time".  

 

Colts lose Carson Wentz-Commanders trade after benching Matt Ryan.

We don’t make the rules and the Commanders certainly haven’t won anything with Wentz currently on injured reserve following finger surgery, but the Colts come out as huge losers in the whole Wentz debacle. Irsay and Co. were so quick to run the quarterback out of town — and sing Ryan’s praises after acquiring the veteran from Atlanta — that they didn’t realize what they were losing: a better quarterback.

 

Those are just the facts. Not once in 2021 did the Colts even consider benching Wentz, who finished the season with 3,563 passing yards (third most of his career) and 27 touchdowns (tied for second-most in his career) to seven interceptions (tied for the second fewest of his career).

 

In just six games with the Colts, Ryan already has nine interceptions and has fumbled a whopping eleven times (three lost). Both stats lead all quarterbacks and Ryan only has 2,008 yards, nine touchdowns, a lousy 6.8 yards per pass attempt and a 3-3-1 record to show for it.

 

The Colts were planning to pull the plug on Ryan regardless of his injury and most Indy fans would tell you the move is long overdue.

 

Another indicator that Indianapolis lost the trade? The Commanders can move on from Wentz this offseason without any dead cap hit. Ryan, who turns 38 next year, has a crippling $35.2 million cap hit for 2023. If the Colts wanted to cut bait with Ryan, they’d have to swallow $18 million in dead money.

[Skinsinparadise]