The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FootballZombie]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Phillips and Sheehan talked about the perception of Wentz and this team accordingly and does the marriage of the two make it all worse for Wentz as to the perception game. 

 

Coming here and having a worse perception is practically meaningless when he had a bad perception before we acquired him.

 

People were not exactly writing puff pieces about the guy pre-trade, he was already a national punchline.

So he went from being national punchline with the Colts too... being a slightly bigger national punchline with us. Not really breaking any new ground there if we are being honest.

 

 

Our situation certainly does not help his perception, but by no means is it the cause of it. Regardless of how our other QB hires have been looked upon, Wentz case is a situation where the national media was already kicking the dudes shins before he moved teams. That was not going to change after he was brought here.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

This is pretty funny since I think his points are where most of us are and have been, while he has been trashing the entire thing like it was th dumbest move of the last decade. 

 

Guys like Sheehan do tend to adjust thier opinions based on how the guy is when they interview them - not the best metric. So I think G has had the most impact on his coming around, not anything play or practice related. Not important but jsut an observation. 

 

I agree with you, I think he has a higher ceiling than Kirk. Part of that is I think we have better players around him. But time wil ltell. My thoughts on the trade have not changed since day one. Not a big fan but didn't hate it and see it was really thier only move. I like the upside and that they can get out of it quickly with no more additional pain. Howell is intriguing but could still see them selling out for a top QB prospect in next years draft if Wentz washes out. 

 

We should see Carson's competitive spirit this Sunday. He should want to rip Jacksonville's head off. Hope he gets it done. I think when the Colts started so poorly they immediately turned on Wentz and they never stopped blaming him for any issues. I think had they started faster that may not have happened. Same here. If he starts with a solid performance against Jack, he will be given a lot more rope by the fans. If he lays an egg, it will be very ugly. 

 

Sunday cannot get here soon enough. 

 

 

Agree that Sheehan might be moved by Wentz's interviews -- especially in his case because he was one of the rare locals who initially believed the narrative that Wentz's personality was a problem. 

 

My position is pretty similar to yours, not exactly but close.  I am a bit more grey on the deal than the typical person here but lean on the bright side.  

 

A. Do I think Ballard won the deal?  Heck yes.   He did a great job taking advantage of a desperate team who were afraid at that point in time to be left out of the party and worried about any decent player with choices voluntarily coming here.  So we did pay a premium price that other teams would have unlikely had to pay.

 

B.  Would I have preferred Stafford the year before and Russell Wilson -- heck yes and by a mile. I know some here hated the idea of both players.  But IMO Wilson is elite and Stafford is just a tier below elite.  To me Wentz is low 2nd tier, high third tier QB. Denver has 5 prime time games this year.  We got 2, not even 1 Sunday Night game. The perception about the season and excitement would have been IMO night and day better if they landed Wilson.  But I can't fault them for that since they tried to get both of those QBs. 

 

C.  As for Wentz, I sort of buy it all, both the positive and the negative.   Some seem to cling on just one point of view on it.  I do think he has top ten talent.  I do think if he rediscovers most of his 2017 form he can be an elite QB again.  I also think his confidence is shot some -- his accuracy is up and down and the ride could be a wild roller coaster.  I am open for either ride or maybe more likely a ride that's somewhere in between those two takes.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Coming here and having a worse perception is practically meaningless when he had a bad perception before we acquired him.

 

People were not exactly writing puff pieces about the guy pre-trade, he was already a national punchline.

So he went from being national punchline with the Colts too... being a slightly bigger national punchline with us. Not really breaking any new ground there if we are being honest.

 

 

Our situation certainly does not help his perception, but by no means is it the cause of it. Regardless of how our other QB hires have been looked upon, Wentz case is a situation where the national media was already kicking the dudes shins before he moved teams. That was not going to change after he was brought here.

 

I know.  I've made the same point on this thread a zillion times.  As I said in my post I typically pushed back on the take about they are crapping on him because he came to Washington.  But I don't think its crazy to add to that pile is when has a move that Washington made at Qb worked out?  it's really rare.

 

ESPN or whomever could do one heck of a sad show about this team's history at QB, predating even Dan post 1992.  I used to think the Browns had the worst recent history at that spot, maybe the Lions.  But I think over time this team has surpassed every team as having the sadest and wildest stories as for the QB over the last 30 years or so.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I also think his confidence is shot some -- his accuracy is up and down and the ride could be a wild roller coaster.  I am open for either ride or maybe more likely a ride that's somewhere in between those two takes.

 

Only natural for his confidence to suffer after a major knee injury.  Add on to that he's been traded twice and it'd shake any QBs confidence.  But I think he can get it back by fitting in well here, feeling wanted, and by having some early success in our offense.  I think he's going to be aggressive again for us.  It's in his nature, and if he doesn't have to worry about a ton of off field stuff, he'll revert to his nature.

 

As for the accuracy issues, even during his best moments Carson was not a very accurate passer.  His career completion percentage is on the low end and in his MVP caliber season, it was only 60%.  And his on target percentages are low 70% whereas a guy like Mahomes is usually around 77%.  What makes Carson a potentially special QB is his creativity, and the fact that he throws the ball downfield so well, so he generates a lot of big plays.  It can be uneven and frustrating at times, and it's definitely nice when you have a QB who is just a relentless chain mover, but it can be a championship formula if you pair a big play offense with an elite D.  

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Only natural for his confidence to suffer after a major knee injury.  Add on to that he's been traded twice and it'd shake any QBs confidence.  But I think he can get it back by fitting in well here, feeling wanted, and by having some early success in our offense.  I think he's going to be aggressive again for us.  It's in his nature, and if he doesn't have to worry about a ton of off field stuff, he'll revert to his nature.

 

 

I am feeling the same way.  But will see.

 

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

As for the accuracy issues, even during his best moments Carson was not a very accurate passer.  His career completion percentage is on the low end and in his MVP caliber season, it was only 60%.  And his on target percentages are low 70% whereas a guy like Mahomes is usually around 77%.  What makes Carson a potentially special QB is his creativity, and the fact that he throws the ball downfield so well, so he generates a lot of big plays.  It can be uneven and frustrating at times, and it's definitely nice when you have a QB who is just a relentless chain mover, but it can be a championship formula if you pair a big play offense with an elite D.  

 

Agree with this, too.

 

Like I said I lean optimistic.  But I am not ruling out it could go sideways. 

[Koolblue13]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2939243-ranking-the-5-best-moves-of-the-2021-nfl-offseason

 

Based on what the Colts gave up in the trade for Wentz and the potential long-term impact of the deal, they've made the best move this offseason thus far.

                

In his final campaign with the Eagles, Wentz took the most sacks across the league (50) behind an unstable offensive line. Center Jason Kelce is the only starter within that group who suited up for all 16 contests.

Wentz has his faults, though. At times, he holds on to the ball for a big play downfield, which increases the probability of a sack or ill-advised throw. He must learn to get the ball out quickly to his intermediate targets.

Nevertheless, Wentz landed in an ideal spot. Although Colts left tackle Anthony Castonzo retired, the unit will return the rest of its starters. General manager Chris Ballard could address the void on the perimeter with a high draft pick.

Wentz reunites with his former offen

[London Kev]

18 hours ago, HigSkin said:

The truth is the ups/downs is what we're going to get with Wentz, like Fitz and others.  Here's a game by game look at his stats and it is a roller coaster.  I don't think anybody is expecting anything different but if it's more consistent than great.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/player/carson-wentz-24870/game-log?seasonYear=2021

 

 

You nailed it with the roller coaster comment. Just to prove your point;

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Shawn McBride, ex-Maryland QB just on 106.7, he echoed the same thing I had on Howell which is the concern was can his mobility translate to the pros because the game runs much faster, and he was jazzed to see that it does.

 

 

At least it won't happen in the game against us, i bet it did, they'd stop the game like they did for Brees and make a whole show of it.

 

 

 

 

[HigSkin]

Good listen...

 

 

[Alexa]

17 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Tua and Fields have both been mostly pretty bad so far. NOONE saw Herbert being this good. Hindsight is always 20/20. If at the time we took Tua or Herbert over Young this fan base would have rioted, or if we traded the multiple 1sts+ required for Fields considering how poor he played as a rook.

If Dan had hired a offense first coach then I just feel things would be different at the position. And Fields is in the worst situation in the league. No line, no wr's. If you put Fields w/ Kyle or McVay he'd be a star. 

 

 

[philibusters]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Shawn McBride, ex-Maryland QB 

 

 

Most likely Scott McBrien--he was the starting QB for the team in two of the four year I was in college at Maryland.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

From theAthletic's over/under picks this is said. Some media guys must really hate Wentz.

 

[mhd24]

2 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

From theAthletic's over/under picks this is said. Some media guys must really hate Wentz.

 

I didn't realize that a 27-7 td-int ratio qualified one to one out of the league.  

[philibusters]

Both Eric Eager (PFF Forecast) and Kevin Cole (Unexpected Points) on their podcasts picked the Commanders as one of their week 1 picks against the spread.   Cole acknowledged he is going against the sharp money most likely, but thinks 3 is such an important number when it comes from spreads and the game no only moving from 3.5 to 3, but all the way down to 2.5 makes the Commanders a good pick.   Cole also cited data that Washington 1st and 2nd down defense was ranked 10th last year, but their third down defense was ranked 29th out of 32.  Third down is the money down and their could be a systematic issue (communication issues in the secondary) causing that issue, but in general you would expect those numbers to close and he therefore likes Commanders at 2.5 (with the acknowledgement he would not have listed them as one of his four picks of the week, if the line was 3.5 or even 3.)

[Zim489]

The players in their tiers arent ranked. 

 

A couple ones here are hard. I think Lamar is going to be wildly overpaid if he doesnt show the ability to consistently throw to win. The ravens have to play a very specific way for them to win. Hes the example of its better to throw vs run. If neither team can stop the other the better passing QB will win out. If you were able to take away 10% of his running ability to add it to his passing I think hes the best QB in the league. Matt Ryan can be in 3 different tiers as once depending on what team he is on. Mac Jones isnt in the better rookie contract tier because IMO he will never be elite and will eventually be overpaid

 

[DJD2]

55 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

From theAthletic's over/under picks this is said. Some media guys must really hate Wentz.

 

 

 

Isn't this line backwards? Should be Was -2.5.

[redskinss]

28 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

The players in their tiers arent ranked. 

 

A couple ones here are hard. I think Lamar is going to be wildly overpaid if he doesnt show the ability to consistently throw to win. The ravens have to play a very specific way for them to win. Hes the example of its better to throw vs run. If neither team can stop the other the better passing QB will win out. If you were able to take away 10% of his running ability to add it to his passing I think hes the best QB in the league. Matt Ryan can be in 3 different tiers as once depending on what team he is on. Mac Jones isnt in the better rookie contract tier because IMO he will never be elite and will eventually be overpaid

 

Who the **** is making these lists?

To put deshaun Watson (4 wins last season as a starter) in the "win because of" category and Tom Brady (7 time superbowl champion) in the "can win with" category is beyond comical. 

I've always thought these lists were intentionally mixed up to get anger clicks and reactions now I'm just straight up certain. 

They're almost all complete garbage!

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Brady "can win with" category is beyond comical. 

Well were talking about the season 2022. Brady isnt carrying anything right now. 

 

For Watson, BOB utterly gutted those rosters. Completely GM malpractice. 

[FootballZombie]

Sweet Jeebus will somebody please tell Drew Lock to get out of the tanning machine

[redskinss]

13 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Well were talking about the season 2022. Brady isnt carrying anything right now. 

He won the superbowl 2 years ago and made a deep playoff run last year.

What did Watson do in that same time frame?

Brady has been getting written off every year for the last 6 or 7 at least and every year he says, umm yeah not yet buddy.

This may be the year everyone is right, after all he's ancient for an nfl player but until that actually happens he's one of the best quarterbacks in the game and that list is a joke!

[Mrshadow008]

59 minutes ago, philibusters said:

Both Eric Eager (PFF Forecast) and Kevin Cole (Unexpected Points) on their podcasts picked the Commanders as one of their week 1 picks against the spread.   Cole acknowledged he is going against the sharp money most likely, but thinks 3 is such an important number when it comes from spreads and the game no only moving from 3.5 to 3, but all the way down to 2.5 makes the Commanders a good pick.   Cole also cited data that Washington 1st and 2nd down defense was ranked 10th last year, but their third down defense was ranked 29th out of 32.  Third down is the money down and their could be a systematic issue (communication issues in the secondary) causing that issue, but in general you would expect those numbers to close and he therefore likes Commanders at 2.5 (with the acknowledgement he would not have listed them as one of his four picks of the week, if the line was 3.5 or even 3.)

whats interesting about the 3rd down defense is that ranking is based off about 8 games. Those 8 games are THAT bad. 60.27% bad worst 3rd down d in the league for example was the chargers at 49.54%. the other 9 games though? 33.04% the best team in the league was Buffalo at 33.61%. So the question is which of those two defenses is real?

[ColonialWBSkinsFan]

35 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Sweet Jeebus will somebody please tell Drew Lock to get out of the tanning machine

 

This is possibly the funniest post I've ever seen on this site... well played, Zombie

[Conn]

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Coming here and having a worse perception is practically meaningless when he had a bad perception before we acquired him.

 

People were not exactly writing puff pieces about the guy pre-trade, he was already a national punchline.

So he went from being national punchline with the Colts too... being a slightly bigger national punchline with us. Not really breaking any new ground there if we are being honest.

 

 

Our situation certainly does not help his perception, but by no means is it the cause of it. Regardless of how our other QB hires have been looked upon, Wentz case is a situation where the national media was already kicking the dudes shins before he moved teams. That was not going to change after he was brought here.

You can’t deny that coming here has certainly been no help to him. He’d be halfway down redemption road nationally if the Saints acquired him instead of bringing back Winston, for instance. You can’t deny that. We compound his already shaken rep (and for fair reasons, I’m not griping and saying it’s unfair lol) 

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

Well were talking about the season 2022. Brady isnt carrying anything right now. 

 

For Watson, BOB utterly gutted those rosters. Completely GM malpractice. 

People have been saying this about Brady as he ages for 8 years at least. Gotta be pretty bold to think this is the year those people are finally right. I’d be willing to bet he goes out on top—he was not only one of the most efficient and productive QB’s last year, he also was up at the top for big plays and YPA. He was incredible last year, and it really revealed how depleted those latter-years Patriots rosters were that he was winning with. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Conn

[FootballZombie]

9 minutes ago, Conn said:

You can’t deny that coming here has certainly been no help to him. He’d be halfway down redemption road nationally if the Saints acquired him instead of bringing back Winston, for instance. You can’t deny that. We compound his already shaken rep (and for fair reasons, I’m not griping and saying it’s unfair lol) 

 

 

9 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Our situation certainly does not help his perception, but by no means is it the cause of it. Regardless of how our other QB hires have been looked upon, Wentz case is a situation where the national media was already kicking the dudes shins before he moved teams. That was not going to change after he was brought here.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, I'm just not sure how much there was to compound. He was already seen as a joke.

(Wentz previous zero reputation) multiplied by (Our team's zero reputation) equals zero rep. How far did he fall?

 

If you want to argue the potential reputation gains he could of had if he went to a respected org... Sure, as then you would have some range of reputation to work with.

If we are just talking about Washington's actual impact on Wentz' rep however, its next to nothing, because it was already at that level before we got to him.   

 

If Wentz had some built up previous rep: Yes, it would have got dinged in a move here and it is also true that raising your reputation is an additionally more difficult lift under the light of our org.