The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This is actually a great example of what TH CAN do.  He can float the ball to a receiver, and if the receiver is open, as McKissic was on this play, it can work.  He can get the ball down field, probably between 40 and 50 yards in the air.

 

What he can't do, as @mistertim said is drive the ball.  Literally everybody has said this, and there are countless examples of it.  When he needs to have no loft on the ball, just drive the ball into a receiver in a tight window, he doesn't have the physical tools to do it. At least not consistently, and only if the rest of his mechanics are perfect. 

 

Numbers can't really show that.  You just see it, and if you are remotely good at knowing what you're looking at, you can tell almost immediately.

 

What Ron and Scott have both said this off season is having Wentz has given them access to things they couldn't do last year.  It's made the whole field available to them.  Both have spoken at length about it.  They won't come right out and say TH has a noodle arm.  But they constantly mention how they are now able to stretch the field and throw tight-window throws, how the playbook is more open.  

 

I get that. But with Wentz opening up the field doesn't mean more accuracy. TH was 3% better than Wentz last year even with less of an arm. I care about completion and accuracy from a strong armed QB too. Opening up the field does jack **** if the QB can't get the ball to the WR accurately. Wentz will also need to learn the chemistry between him and his WRs and quickly. I am sure as smart as Wentz is - he should be able to at least pass TH on the accuracy column this year with the talent he is being surrounded by. Hopefully Terry gets his money and can help him sooner than later. 

[Koolblue13]

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I get that. But with Wentz opening up the field doesn't mean more accuracy. TH was 3% better than Wentz last year even with less of an arm. I care about completion and accuracy from a strong armed QB too. Opening up the field does jack **** if the QB can't get the ball to the WR accurately. Wentz will also need to learn the chemistry between him and his WRs and quickly. I am sure as smart as Wentz is - he should be able to at least pass TH on the accuracy column this year with the talent he is being surrounded by. Hopefully Terry gets his money and can help him sooner than later. 

Adorable. 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ya know Heinicke beat him once.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Adorable. 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

41 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I get that. But with Wentz opening up the field doesn't mean more accuracy. TH was 3% better than Wentz last year even with less of an arm. I care about completion and accuracy from a strong armed QB too. Opening up the field does jack **** if the QB can't get the ball to the WR accurately. Wentz will also need to learn the chemistry between him and his WRs and quickly. I am sure as smart as Wentz is - he should be able to at least pass TH on the accuracy column this year with the talent he is being surrounded by. Hopefully Terry gets his money and can help him sooner than later. 

Wentz was an elite deep ball thrower by the advanced metrics.  

 

He's not perfect. But he's a huge upgrade.  Literally. TH looks like he's Wentz's elementary school brother next to him....

 

 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Wentz was an elite deep ball thrower by the advanced metrics.  

 

He's not perfect. But he's a huge upgrade.  Literally. TH looks like he's Wentz's elementary school brother next to him....

 

 

 

Let's hope so or else he will look elementary instead. I am on the fence with Wentz. Hopefully Turner's offense can make him better.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by zCommander

[SkinsFTW]

Hopefully his accuracy on the short stuff improves. Otherwise people are going to be comparing him to McNugget every week in the gameday threads. 

[NeverSurrender]

17 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Are you sure about that?  Have you conducted an investigation?  Is Wentz a "right foot first" guy and TH a "sit down on the bed" guy?   

 

I think we need a lot more information on how these two put on their pants. 

 

TH takes about 25 mins to put his pants on.  Have you seen his madden ratings? No strength, no awareness.... He barely knows how to stand up.  Wentz on the other hand is pretty average.  1 foot at a time and boom... hes done..... But Rodgers, Mahomes, Brady....... ohh boy thats a show......if you ever get to see it... take notes and thoes guys have 3 legs to get in there not just 2 like TH and Wentz.

[Tress Is The Way]

51 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

TH takes about 25 mins to put his pants on.  Have you seen his madden ratings? No strength, no awareness.... He barely knows how to stand up.  Wentz on the other hand is pretty average.  1 foot at a time and boom... hes done..... But Rodgers, Mahomes, Brady....... ohh boy thats a show......if you ever get to see it... take notes and thoes guys have 3 legs to get in there not just 2 like TH and Wentz.

Makes sense with those 3.. a left foot, a right foot, and a massive... ego 🤣

[kingdaddy]

12 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Let's hope so or else he will look elementary instead. I am on the fence with Wentz. Hopefully Turner's offense can make him better.

 

TH is still on the team because the coaches feel like he can play, big arm or no big arm. He has his strengths and his weaknesses the same as Wentz does. Hopefully TH pushes Wentz to be better than he's ever been. What's interesting to me is there are some out there who say that we'd have been a playoff team if Fitz had stayed healthy rather than us having TH play all season. The fact is that Fitz wasn't able to protect himself behind the same offensive line that TH lasted the entire season behind despite taking some huge hits. TH competes and stays on the field, he beat some good teams with less than a full deck. Lets see if Wentz can stay on the field, I hope he can because I'd love to see him stick it to the Eagles.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, NeverSurrender said:

TH takes about 25 mins to put his pants on.  Have you seen his madden ratings? No strength, no awareness.... He barely knows how to stand up.  Wentz on the other hand is pretty average.  1 foot at a time and boom... hes done..... But Rodgers, Mahomes, Brady....... ohh boy thats a show......if you ever get to see it... take notes and thoes guys have 3 legs to get in there not just 2 like TH and Wentz.

This is the hard hitting analysis we are all here for.  

 

Carry on my good man.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

Hopefully his accuracy on the short stuff improves. Otherwise people are going to be comparing him to McNugget every week in the gameday threads. 

He's actually pretty good in quick game.  That's one of the things Ron and Scott liked about them, at least what they said almost as soon as they traded for him.

 

I think his accuracy issues stem from indecisiveness a lot of the time.  He is late to a throw, he is trying to decide whether he wants to evade and take a deep shot or take the easy throw, and by the time he makes up his mind, he rushes the throw, his mechanics are off, and it's a wild pitch.

 

To my eye, when he's decisive, his accuracy is pretty good.  With quick game, you have to be decisive, because its, well, quick.  You take the snap and throw.  Very little room for decision making.  

 

Now, that's the theory. We'll see how it plays out in practice. 

 

One thing I have said from the beginning, I think Wentz is going to improve as the year goes on.  I think it's going to take 4-6 games for him to get comfortable in a completely new offense, new terminology, etc.  

 

I do, however, think Scott Turner is going to make things as easy for him as possible.  One thing Troy said about Norv's system is that it was quarterback friendly.  It limits the things a QB has to do, the reads are very specific, and it often gets the primary receiver open.  Is Scott Norv?  No.  At least, not yet.  But the premise is the same and Norv is around a lot so I'm sure he's imparting some wisdom on junior.  

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

TH takes about 25 mins to put his pants on.  Have you seen his madden ratings? No strength, no awareness.... He barely knows how to stand up.  Wentz on the other hand is pretty average. 

 

Just uhhh... gonna slide this in here. From Madden 2022

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

26 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

TH is still on the team because the coaches feel like he can play, big arm or no big arm. He has his strengths and his weaknesses the same as Wentz does. Hopefully TH pushes Wentz to be better than he's ever been. What's interesting to me is there are some out there who say that we'd have been a playoff team if Fitz had stayed healthy rather than us having TH play all season. The fact is that Fitz wasn't able to protect himself behind the same offensive line that TH lasted the entire season behind despite taking some huge hits. TH competes and stays on the field, he beat some good teams with less than a full deck. Lets see if Wentz can stay on the field, I hope he can because I'd love to see him stick it to the Eagles.

TH is on the team because he's a perfect backup for the team. 

 

Taylor is not pushing Wentz.  If Wentz needed Taylor to push him, Wentz has much bigger problems.  If Wentz is not a) self motivated, b) motivated by the fact the entire national media is ****ing on him, and c) motivated by wanting to shove it up Irsay's ass sideways, then we have other problems.

 

If you go back and look, it was just kindof an unlucky hit on Fitz that put him out. It wasn't even that hard a hit.  Just awkward.  Just like it was an unlucky hit on Alex Smith which put him out.  All QBs are going to take hits from time to time, sometimes you take a funky hit and you're done.  If you want to go WAY back, Joe Theisman got hurt playing behind the Hogs.  It happens.  

 

I might also remind you that last year was the first time in his career TH entered and exited a game not injured.  In every one of his previous games, whether it be relief of starting, he got hurt.  It was one of the big knocks on him, he couldn't stay healthy. It looks like he's turned the corner on that.  I would also remind everybody Wentz hasn't missed a start due to injury since the end of the 2018 season. 

 

I'm extremely grateful TH is the backup on the team.  He knows the offense, doesn't need a lot of practice reps, and is a good dude. He can be a good example for Howell.  I don't expect him to mentor his replacement, but he's a good locker room guy who's not going to cause issues.  The team likes him, and the coaches like him.  And he doesn't cost a lot against the cap.  Unless it's in mop-up duty, I hope he never has to play this season.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

 

 

It didn't show Wentz so I thought he might be one of the five players tied at 11....nope lol.

 

Wentz had 6 games with 65%+ completion pct.

 

So I then checked out Heinicke to see if he was one of the five...nope lol.

 

Heinicke had 9 games.

 

So I checked out....well, no one else on the team was playing in the NFL last season lol...

 

So instead I checked out Wentz for 2020 even though he didn't play a full season.

 

He had none. So over his last like 28 games he's only completed 65% of his passes six times. 6 out of 28.

 

But I wasn't giving up.

 

2019: Wentz had 8 games of 65%+ completion pct...8 out of 16 games. Damn.

 

2018: Wentz had 10 games of 65%+ completion pct. And didn't play a full season. So that's 10 games out of 11. Damn!

 

2017: Wentz had 4 games of 65%+ completion pct...4 games out of 13. He also had 4 games below 55% completion pct...during his possible MVP season. TD:INT ration was fire, though...

 

I'm not sure what to make of this lol...but I made a sound like Marge Simpson as I read these stats...

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

3 hours ago, ZarG3 said:

Makes sense with those 3.. a left foot, a right foot, and a massive... ego 🤣

He was talking about their penises.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[Conn]

3 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

TH is still on the team because the coaches feel like he can play, big arm or no big arm. He has his strengths and his weaknesses the same as Wentz does. Hopefully TH pushes Wentz to be better than he's ever been. What's interesting to me is there are some out there who say that we'd have been a playoff team if Fitz had stayed healthy rather than us having TH play all season. The fact is that Fitz wasn't able to protect himself behind the same offensive line that TH lasted the entire season behind despite taking some huge hits. TH competes and stays on the field, he beat some good teams with less than a full deck. Lets see if Wentz can stay on the field, I hope he can because I'd love to see him stick it to the Eagles.

I thought about blocking you a while back for these posts, but this one made it all worth it. Glad I stuck around and persevered. That’s what I call gumption. 

[mistertim]

The idea of Heinicke pushing Wentz is hilarious. 

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

The idea of Heinicke pushing Wentz is hilarious. 

 

Why would someone who had almost same stats as Wentz would be threat to him...lol

By he way, TH had better completion % than Wentz did last year and that was with TH only playing 16 games instead. 

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/stats/carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke.php

[TheShredder]

Heinicke vs Wentz ... 🤣🤣🤣

That's like over 100% more INT's...Let's not try and split hairs about 2-3% completion when Wenzt is taking shots that Heinicke's BB gun can't attempt. Literally Heinicke costs Turner more than 25% of his playbook...Wentz can sling it 50 yards in the air falling down at 30 degrees from the turf. Heinicke has to get a running start with a Hail Mary projection. Just look how nice and soft those passes look, for the defense.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by TheShredder

[mistertim]

25 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Why would someone who had almost same stats as Wentz would be threat to him...lol

By he way, TH had better completion % than Wentz did last year and that was with TH only playing 16 games instead. 

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/stats/carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke.php

 

27 TDs to 7 INTs is "almost the same" as 20 TDs to 15 INTs?

 

And I've seen the Hive point constantly to TH's completion percentage while completely ignoring other more comprehensive next gen stats that showed him to be bottom of the barrel. 

 

IIRC @Skinsinparadisehas provided those numbers on numerous occasions. 

 

So yes, the idea of Heinicke pushing Wentz is ludicrously amusing. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

22 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Why would someone who had almost same stats as Wentz would be threat to him...lol

My God Man

22 minutes ago, zCommander said:

By he way, TH had better completion % than Wentz did last year and that was with TH only playing 16 games instead. 

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/stats/carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke.php

This is true. It is undeniable TH had a higher completion percentage than Wentz.  But that really just tells part of the story, statistically speaking.  (there is a non-statistical argument to be made as well, but let's just stick with the math)

 

TD% - Percentage of throws which result in a TD

Wentz - 5.4%

TH - 4%

 

 

Adjusted Yards per Attempt: (this takes into account TDs and INTs

Wentz - 7.3

TH - 6.4

 

 

Yards per completion

Wentz - 11.1

TH - 10.7

 

Passer Rating (for those who care)

Wentz - 94.6

TH - 85.9

 

ESPN's QBR (I'm not getting into a QBR debate)

Wentz - 54.7

TH - 39.9

 

TDs:

Wentz - 27

TH - 20 (Granted, one fewer game) 

 

INTs

Wentz - 7 (one more game)

TH - 15

 

I refuse to look at PFF grades because they are garbage and rely not only on statistics but on the way analysts grade plays.  

 

So, statistically, yeah, Wentz has a lower completion percentage.  But every single other statistic is in Wentz's favor.  Which means something.  

 

I want to pick on you for one thing though, the fact Taylor played one fewer game does not in any way effect completion percentage, because the formula is  completion/attempts.  If you play one less game, you have less attempts and less completion.  It's kindof like an average.  It judges only what you did.

 

So you say "only playing one fewer game" as though it makes this more impressive.  But, that's not actually how the math works.  I think you know that.  But in case you didn't ...

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Ranking last season's starting QBs by deep passing performance: Arizona Cardinals' Kyler Murray lands at No. 1

8. CARSON WENTZ, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

2021 Passing Grade: 90.7 | 2021 Yards per Attempt: 14.3 | 2021 Passer Rating: 107.8

 The Colts-turned-Commanders quarterback ranked seventh among starters in both turnover-worthy play rate (4.5%) and passer rating (107.8) on deep passes last season. He went 25-of-59 for 842 yards, seven touchdowns and only three picks. 

 

31. TAYLOR HEINICKE, WASHINGTON COMMANDERS

2021 Passing Grade: 52.6 | 2021 Yards per Attempt: 9.9 | 2021 Passer Rating: 70.8

Heinicke's 52.6 passing grade was 32nd of 32, and he had an ugly, last-place 17.91% turnover-worthy play rate. He finished 30th or worse in four categories: PFF grade, turnover-worthy play rate, accuracy rate and accuracy-plus rate. 

32. SAM DARNOLD, CAROLINA PANTHERS

2021 Passing Grade: 71.8 | 2021 Yards per Attempt: 9.2 | 2021 Passer Rating: 42.5

Darnold completed only 27.5% of his 20-plus-yard pass attempts and ranked last in passer rating (42.5%). His 40 attempts resulted in only 368 yards.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-2021-starting-qbs-deep-passing-performance-arizona-cardinals-kyler-murray

[TheShredder]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

ESPN's QBR (I'm not getting into a QBR debate)

Wentz - 54.7

TH - 39.9

🤣 You posted it 🤣

I went threw it before and it's a decent stat, just complicated.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

I went threw it before and it's a decent stat, just complicated.

I know.  There is one particular poster who rails against it and can drag the entire thread to a halt over QBR.  It's not ideal.  I think it's one of many "ok" stats.  There is no perfect stat. 

 

I just am not going to suffer through that debate again.  It's fine for what it is.  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I refuse to look at PFF grades because they are garbage and rely not only on statistics but on the way analysts grade plays.  

 

 

As tough as some of the PFF personalities have been on Wentz, they also all said he's a "significant" upgrade over Heinicke.  That's part of my beef with them.  If Wentz is so awful and he's still a signficant upgrade over Heinicke -- than how bad do they think Heinicke actually is -- beyond awful?

 

PFF is very dismissive of Heinicke.  I think with them they oddly got caught up in the national hate narrative about Wentz even though they are supposed to be all about the numbers.  The numbers I posted about Wentz and the deep ball are from PFF which are good.

 

In fairness to them, different people at PFF have different opinions especially about QBs.  I recall years ago lol some would cite PFF to back Haskins potential and some would use a different PFF personality to trash Haskins' potential.   There was a PFF dude on Galdi's podcast recently who was actually somewhat high on Wentz.