The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Then teams figured out how to stop that and guys started punching each other because of how bad Heinicke is.

This is golden, I love it.

[KDawg]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

Kindof QB related, Jon Allen put up an "Ask Me Anything" on his twitter last night, and was peppered with a variety of things.  He was asked about the picture with Russ, and said he asked Russ and Ciara for a picture because he and his wife are huge fans of theirs and when asked if thought Russ would come to the Commanders, he said, "I hope so."

 

Lot of interesting stuff on a variety of topics, but I thought those callouts were especially interesting.  

 

 

 

Yeah we've been talking about this for the last page or so. 

[Koolblue13]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is golden, I love it.

It went from wondering what they fought about, to Paynes Dad yelling about QB. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I mostly agree with this, but I think we should also keep in mind that, especially during the 5 game win streak, we won super close games by the skin of our teeth so any one of those games could easily have gone the other way with 1 or 2 different bounces.

Yes, but we were also playing with one hand tied behind our back on offense because of TH's limitations.   We HAD to run the snuffing out of the ball and hope against all hopes we could convert enough 3rd downs to dominate TOP and win ugly.  That's the only formula to win with TH.  And they were successful in doing it 4 times.  They also got 2 great, clutch games from TH in that stretch, which was key.  If you can't convert on the 3rd downs, or they stuff the run, basically you get blown out.  So, to me, winning ugly was the only way to go, and they did, and I give them credit for that.  

 

I think the foundation of this entire thread is we all KNOW the team did everything it did last year while being so severely limited at QB.  Granted, the defense totally stunk for half the season, and then got better for a while, before the season was derailed by COVID and injuries.  

[HigSkin]

Interesting info about the different ways to arrive at a QB

 

 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

#1 directly relates to why I don’t think Murray is an option. LTD will be here to come by.

 

I agree of course with the premise that money isn’t the only factor for players (and sometimes/often not even the top factor).  

I also think it makes sense that Murray’s contract stuff is (mostly? all?) about pushing for his coach to be extended.

 

Knowing that the only way a team will trade for him is if a LTD is worked out, I have a bit more trouble making the leap in logic to - Murray will only play for Kingsbury, will slack off if he can’t play for him, or will only not play for Kingsbury if he receives an outlandish contract.  

 

It does get into an interesting area - a game of chicken as it were - if AZ is put in the position of wanting to ditch Kingsbury, but having to deal with Murray.  Murray can screw up trade possibilities for them, retire, refuse to play, etc.  Of course those options all make his future quite questionable.  Who’s going to want to work with him at that point?  Who’s going to trust him?  It’s all theoretically possible obviously, he wouldn’t be the first guy to not consider long term ramifications or base decisions on emotion over logic.

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Yeah we've been talking about this for the last page or so. 

Yeah, I made the mistake of not going back a page.  Ooops.  

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Interesting info about the different ways to arrive at a QB

 

 

 

The trades stand out there as being at a far lower tier IMO. Though I think Stafford is definitely the best of the 3 by a fair amount. Teams with true elite QBs drafted them. Brady is an aberration because he's the GOAT and became a FA at 43 years old...about 5 years after most QBs retire.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I agree of course with the premise that money isn’t the only factor for players (and sometimes/often not even the top factor).  

I also think it makes sense that Murray’s contract stuff is (mostly? all?) about pushing for his coach to be extended.

 

Knowing that the only way a team will trade for him is if a LTD is worked out, I have a bit more trouble making the leap in logic to - Murray will only play for Kingsbury, will slack off if he can’t play for him, or will only not play for Kingsbury if he receives an outlandish contract.  

 

It does get into an interesting area - a game of chicken as it were - if AZ is put in the position of wanting to ditch Kingsbury, but having to deal with Murray.  Murray can screw up trade possibilities for them, retire, refuse to play, etc.  Of course those options all make his future quite questionable.  Who’s going to want to work with him at that point?  Who’s going to trust him?  It’s all theoretically possible obviously, he wouldn’t be the first guy to not consider long term ramifications or base decisions on emotion over logic.

 

 

It's what he's trying to have happen now. If they trade him he will want to see what happens with Kingsbury. I also said negotiating with him he would have outlandish demands. Which is true. Meet them and he's probably going to play. He WANTS to play for Kingsbury. That's the point. They won't trade him because teams won't want him given the capital without a LTD in place. THAT was my point. 

 

Why are we constantly trying to make these fairy tales seem like they are real options?

 

Until they are... they aren't. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by KDawg

[veteranskinsfan]

There is a good quarterbacks article in the Athletic today written by Jeff Howe.  He talks about how the quarterback salaries are escalating and how teams are thinking

about team priorities.  Meanwhile agents will want to reset the market for the new young crop of quarterbacks like Joe Burrow.  He sees some teams willing to pay

between $40-50 million while other teams are going to try to come up with a better way of keeping their quarterbacks and not losing them to other teams who bid

higher for them when they become free agents.

[skinny21]

31 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

It's what he's trying to have happen now. If they trade him he will want to see what happens with Kingsbury. I also said negotiating with him he would have outlandish demands. Which is true. Meet them and he's probably going to play. He WANTS to play for Kingsbury. That's the point. They won't trade him because teams won't want him given the capital without a LTD in place. THAT was my point. 

 

Why are we constantly trying to make these fairy tales seem like they are real options?

 

Until they are... they aren't. 

And until they aren’t… they are 😜

  

(And the answer is probably because a) we’re in desperation mode, and b) we’re spinning our wheels here in this thread, so random/fruitless speculation comes with the territory)

 

But yeah, I’m putting a Murray trade as close to zero percent as you can get, I’m more just trying to understand your thinking.

 

I might have missed something, but how do we know for a fact he’d have outlandish demands?

He may want to see what happens with Kingsbury - and that certainly matters from the standpoint that if Kingsbury is extended, Murray will then (presumably) sign an extension himself - but in terms of seeing what happens to Kingsbury if AZ looks to trade Murray, isn’t that a nonfactor?  As you said, he’s only getting traded if he agrees to a LTD.  

Of course, Murray could play out this year, then see if Kingsbury lands elsewhere (whether as an OC or HC, though I tend to doubt the latter happens) and follow him.  I’m still trying to really wrap my head around a player being that tied to a coach I guess.  🤷‍♂️

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

We’ll see. Long process. But this isn’t good.

I think you're right in your overall assessment, but I'm not sure I would say "it isn't good."  I think it's just life.  I think the team went on a QB rollercoaster, and it ended up being really frustrated in the end they really couldn't compete for a playoff spot because of the limitations.  And I think you're hearing some of that frustration.  I don't think they ever turned on TH.  I think they all liked him, and will continue to like him. But as Mike Shanahan said, "you can't fool the locker room."  

 

To your point that the players are going to be dissapoitned if the team doesn't get Russ, Watson, Carr or Rodgers, eh, I dunno.  They can hope (like most of us) that we get one of those guys, but they also probably know it's really tough, so I kindof think as long as they see Ron and company are TRUELY trying to upgrade significantly, I think they'll be fine. But who knows.  We'll see.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------

(This part of the post not related to my response to your post.)

 

I think the locker room went on a rollercoaster ride with TH.  And there was real hope in the first few games TH played,

 

Week 1: He played well (mostly) in relief in game 1 against the Chargers. He knew the offense, the Chargers weren't ready for him, and they were a Gibson fumble away from being able to potentially steal the game.

 

Week 2: He played well against the Giants, and I don't think we quite knew that the Giants were going to be as bad as they were.  They were mad lucky to win that game, but the TH magic was starting to build. The locker room was still bought in TH could play well enough to keep them competitive.

 

Week 3: They got run by the Bills, but I'm not sure if that was really avoidable.  The defense couldn't stop the Bills at all, and it was just a mess.  No change for TH in this game.  

 

Week 4: The magic continues with the win in Atlanta.  At this point, I think the locker room believes TH can at least be the stop-gap guy.  They might see his limitations, but they also see his heart and desire and competitiveness.  And he continued to make enough plays to keep them in games.

 

Week 5: I think this is where the wheels start to come off, and everybody in the locker room started to feel it.  The Saints really gave everybody the blueprint for stopping the offense.  They basically stuffed the run, Gibson went 20 carries for 60 yards, 3 YPC, McKissic was 2 for -1 yard.  They forced TH to throw the ball 41 times, he was under 50% completions and threw 2 INTs.  This is where TH needed to throw the Saints out of clogging up the running game, and he just couldn't.  

 

Weeks 6-8 weren't much better. They scored 13, 10 and 10 points against KC, GB and Denver.  They all followed the same blueprint, and by the end of this stretch, I think everybody in the locker room/team knew exactly what they had: A super competitive, knowledgeable backup QB who was physically limited and just couldn't be more than a fill-in reserve. And I think this is where the locker room didn't turn on TH, that would be unfair, but came to the conclusion they needed a very significant upgrade. 

 

During the 4 game winning streak, TH had a GREAT game against Tampa.  It was a good came plan, they rant he ball 34 times (including 3 TH scrambles) and threw the ball 32 times.  They converted on 11-19 3rd downs, and dominated TOP. 

 

The rest of the winning streak games followed the same blueprint, but they won 27-21, 17-15 and 17-15.  It wasn't exactly an offensive explosion.  

 

The last game I will mention is the first Dallas game.  I think everything after that is unfair to judge because of the injury and COVID situations.  But the last Dallas game, which was kindof there for the taking, TH went 11/25 for 122 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT.  Gibson only got 10 carries because they couldn't convert first downs.  They only had 62 offensive plays. They went 3-14 on 3rd down.  

 

And I think, once again, the locker room realized that they could win in one way, and one way only, and if a good team (and Dallas is a good team) can take that one way away, they really have no chance, even if Dallas sleep walked through that game.  

 

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

Rivera and Mayhew already sold TH down the river in the end of season press conference. They tried to trade for Trubisky in October as well. TH is fully aware of what the perception of him, players included I’m sure. I don’t see that comment creating a bar that has to be set at QB either.

They didn't have to sell him down the river.  He knew.  He even said he was happy with any role, starter or backup, in his end of season press conference.  He strikes me as a competitive guy, but also a self aware guy.  I think he knows deep down he just doesn't have the arm talent to be able to make the tight window throws and stretch the field in the NFL. And based on his comments, he just wants to have an NFL job.  Which I think he probably will, for quite a while.  

 

I've used this comparison before, but he reminds me a lot of Chase Daniel.  Who is physically limited, great guy, good competitor, coaches love him, good in the room, and he's been in the league for like 15 years.  Nobody wants him to ever play.  But there he is, always on a team.  

 

32 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

This is what makes Heinicke a really valuable back up. He is likeable, guys will play for him, he knows the offense, and he can come in and win a game or two.

Which is what he was this year.  Something people forget: We played 15.5 games with our backup QB, and 1 game with a guy off the street because of COVID.  

 

I agree he's a backup.  And for a game or two, he's probably fine.  Playing an entire season? Eh, he's just not good enough.  

 

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

And until they aren’t… they are 😜

  

(And the answer is probably because a) we’re in desperation mode, and b) we’re spinning our wheels here in this thread, so random/fruitless speculation comes with the territory)

 

But yeah, I’m putting a Murray trade as close to zero percent as you can get, I’m more just trying to understand your thinking.

 

I might have missed something, but how do we know for a fact he’d have outlandish demands?

He may want to see what happens with Kingsbury - and that certainly matters from the standpoint that if Kingsbury is extended, Murray will then (presumably) sign an extension himself - but in terms of seeing what happens to Kingsbury if AZ looks to trade Murray, isn’t that a nonfactor?  As you said, he’s only getting traded if he agrees to a LTD.  

Of course, Murray could play out this year, then see if Kingsbury lands elsewhere (whether as an OC or HC, though I tend to doubt the latter happens) and follow him.  I’m still trying to really wrap my head around a player being that tied to a coach I guess.  🤷‍♂️

 

To me a player being that tied to a coach is a bit of a red flag. We've read multiple reports about Murray whining and blaming other people for his poor play. If that's true, maybe Kingsbury is a guy who coddles him and he doesn't want to lose that?

 

Either way, getting Murray is even less likely than the other incredibly unlikely scenarios of getting Rodgers, Wilson, or Watson.

 

I swear by the time trades become open after the Super Bowl some people here will have convinced themselves that we're going to somehow trade for Mahomes.

[Warhead36]

Nobody hates Heinicke. If he has to play for a game or two you're still in okay shape. But he absolutely can not be looked at as anything more than that.

[KDawg]

28 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

And until they aren’t… they are 😜

  

 

 

That's not how it works.

 

Quote

(And the answer is probably because a) we’re in desperation mode, and b) we’re spinning our wheels here in this thread, so random/fruitless speculation comes with the territory)

 

But yeah, I’m putting a Murray trade as close to zero percent as you can get, I’m more just trying to understand your thinking.

 

I might have missed something, but how do we know for a fact he’d have outlandish demands?

He may want to see what happens with Kingsbury - and that certainly matters from the standpoint that if Kingsbury is extended, Murray will then (presumably) sign an extension himself - but in terms of seeing what happens to Kingsbury if AZ looks to trade Murray, isn’t that a nonfactor?  As you said, he’s only getting traded if he agrees to a LTD.  

Of course, Murray could play out this year, then see if Kingsbury lands elsewhere (whether as an OC or HC, though I tend to doubt the latter happens) and follow him.  I’m still trying to really wrap my head around a player being that tied to a coach I guess.  🤷‍♂️

 

He's not.

 

This is a posture play.

 

If Arizona inks he and Kingsbury to extensions, he will have gotten what he wants. He is letting the Cardinals know that they are linked. And because, in MY OPINION he doesn't want to leave Arizona yet he is going to make it hard for Arizona to trade him. He doesn't have a no trade clause, but he can demand a lot from teams looking to make an offer... because those teams will want to know where he stands with an extension. 

 

I don't think this is about getting out of Arizona. It's about staying in.

 

But if they don't get extensions, he will want to go where Kingsbury is.

 

The monkey wrench is the tag. He, his agent and Kingsbury all know its there. 

[Redskins 2021]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

 

That's not how it works.

 

 

He's not.

 

This is a posture play.

 

If Arizona inks he and Kingsbury to extensions, he will have gotten what he wants. He is letting the Cardinals know that they are linked. And because, in MY OPINION he doesn't want to leave Arizona yet he is going to make it hard for Arizona to trade him. He doesn't have a no trade clause, but he can demand a lot from teams looking to make an offer... because those teams will want to know where he stands with an extension. 

 

I don't think this is about getting out of Arizona. It's about staying in.

 

But if they don't get extensions, he will want to go where Kingsbury is.

 

The monkey wrench is the tag. He, his agent and Kingsbury all know its there. 

Arizona wants to wait the year to give  Kingsbury and Murray extensions. If this year goes bad for the two of them they may be available. 

[KDawg]

Just now, Redskins 2021 said:

Arizona wants to wait the year to give  Kingsbury and Murray extensions. If this year goes bad for the two of them they may be available. 

Exactly.

 

It's all leverage. Murray doesn't want out, but that's his leverage to get Arizona to give them both extensions.

[Warhead36]

Murray isn't leaving Arizona. Stop.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Murray isn't leaving Arizona. Stop.

 

Thank you.

[Conn]

6 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

Arizona wants to wait the year to give  Kingsbury and Murray extensions. If this year goes bad for the two of them they may be available. 

Kingsbury is the only one anywhere near a hot seat. Murray will not become available in any circumstance and they aren’t tied so closely that Murray would leave if Kingsbury’s tenure has been that bad when it’s all said and done. He will just have significant say in the next hire. 

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Conn said:

Kingsbury is the only one anywhere near a hot seat. Murray will not become available in any circumstance and they aren’t tied so closely that Murray would leave if Kingsbury’s tenure has been that bad when it’s all said and done. He will just have significant say in the next hire. 

 

Someone thinking on the same wave length as I am. Thank God. I thought my brain was totally in left field this morning. 

[Berggy9598]

Murray is angling for the big contract between years 3-4. If he was on your list, throw out the list and take a break from list making. 

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Why are we constantly trying to make these fairy tales seem like they are real options?

 

But reality of this team is sad and depressing 😢

[skinny21]

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

That's not how it works.  It was a joke, hence the emoji.

 

 

He's not.  Not what?

 

This is a posture play.  Yep (or at least it give every appearance of being one).

 

If Arizona inks he and Kingsbury to extensions, he will have gotten what he wants. He is letting the Cardinals know that they are linked. And because, in MY OPINION he doesn't want to leave Arizona yet he is going to make it hard for Arizona to trade him. He doesn't have a no trade clause, but he can demand a lot from teams looking to make an offer... because those teams will want to know where he stands with an extension. Agreed.

 

I don't think this is about getting out of Arizona. It's about staying in.  Sure seems that way.

 

But if they don't get extensions, he will want to go where Kingsbury is.  You could be right, just like you could be right about Murray making outlandish demands in a trade (were it to get to that point).  Not sure why you’re framing these things as a fact though?

 

The monkey wrench is the tag. He, his agent and Kingsbury all know its there.  Good point.  Good luck to AZ dealing with that mess (if it came to that).

Not directed at you, but I’m curious why some posters tell others to stop talking about unlikely scenarios?

 

I mean, just in the last month or so people have said to stop talking about Russ and Watson (and Rodgers), yet here we are with both of them on the table (I’m sure I’m butchering this, but - rumors that Russ isn’t opposed to Washington and that Watson was talked about by the team).  Ironically, we haven’t heard more about Wilson or Rodgers wanting out this year, but Murray has actually raised some question marks with his contract stance.  

 

Personally, I think there’s almost no chance we land a top vet, I think they all stay put (who knows about Watson though).  I think it’ll be Garoppolo, Mariota or Trubisky and a 2nd rounder (though Ryan and Mayfield are my wildcards/long shots).  

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

Not directed at you, but I’m curious why some posters tell others to stop talking about unlikely scenarios?

 

I mean, just in the last month or so people have said to stop talking about Russ and Watson (and Rodgers), yet here we are with both of them on the table (I’m sure I’m butchering this, but - rumors that Russ isn’t opposed to Washington and that Watson was talked about by the team).  Ironically, we haven’t heard more about Wilson or Rodgers wanting out this year, but Murray has actually raised some question marks with his contract stance.  

 

Personally, I think there’s almost no chance we land a top vet, I think they all stay put (who knows about Watson though).  I think it’ll be Garoppolo, Mariota or Trubisky and a 2nd rounder (though Ryan and Mayfield are my wildcards/long shots).  

Okay, this is strange.

 

Who is framing ANYTHING as a fact? Please go re-read my posts again. I can't post the same thing in every single post, so if you're going to break down my posts in excruciating and painful nitpicking, please do so while reading my posts. 

 

"If Arizona inks he and Kingsbury to extensions, he will have gotten what he wants. He is letting the Cardinals know that they are linked. And because, in MY OPINION he doesn't want to leave Arizona yet he is going to make it hard for Arizona to trade him. He doesn't have a no trade clause, but he can demand a lot from teams looking to make an offer... because those teams will want to know where he stands with an extension. 

 

I don't think this is about getting out of Arizona. It's about staying in"

 

I have very clearly labeled all of this as an opinion.