The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

25 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Come on, playa. You want to tell other people to be realistic when talking about TH? 😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆

 

Look we all know his limitations. I am okay with it. I am not going to just sit here and constantly bash on the guy either. I do that in the game day thread when he ****s up. Last year he threw more and had almost 65% of his passes completed. This year he cracked over 60% once. This year also the OL is not that good so I can see why we have to run more since the OL actually block on run plays better than pass plays. Putting all this in context of this year Taylor throwing more is not there. But at the end of the day at least we are winning games with what we have. I am okay with this as long as we keep on winning to the playoffs. Small hope but at least it is there. This is being realistic with all things considered. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Acworth skins fan said:

I keep seeing post that say that our play book is limited with Taylor. Did we win games with the full playbook? Did Scott and RR finalize realize that maybe the whole play book doesn’t gel well with the Oline and what we have at QB? Taylor isn’t a great QB, maybe a decent back up. Wentz evidently isn’t a great QB with this team and playbook. 
Running  the football has won 4 of 5 games. Maybe with this current team it doesn’t matter who the QB is, but using the whole play book wasn’t working in the first half of the season. Maybe the players, all of them, on offense cannot run Scott’s total playbook. 

Yeah, the problem is the reason you have more than 10 plays in an NFL playbook is eventually if you do the same thing over and over and over it gets stopped. 
 

Also, let’s not confuse causation with correlation.  The reason they are winning is 90% the defense is stifling teams and shutting them down, and at times even scoring.  The offense basically sucks toes.  The best game was the Eagles game and they still averaged only 3.5 yards per carry.  They basically just ran on every play and got into 3rd and 3 and less, and ran on those also.

 

Against the Texans yet we’re miserable on third down but got away with it because they were playing the Texans.  
 

The two places where having an expanded playbook shows up is 3rd down and redzone.  And apart from the Eagles game we’ve been bad at both for entirety of the last 6 games.

 

The thing is, the defense and this putrid offense might be good enough to win 10 games.  So I’d keep doing what you’re doing for this year.  But don’t confuse why it’s working.  It’s working because of the defense.  If the defense comes out against Atlanta and gives up 2 TDs quickly somehow, this offense will have no answers.  

[MrJL]

33 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, the problem is the reason you have more than 10 plays in an NFL playbook is eventually if you do the same thing over and over and over it gets stopped. 
 

Also, let’s not confuse causation with correlation.  The reason they are winning is 90% the defense is stifling teams and shutting them down, and at times even scoring.  The offense basically sucks toes.  The best game was the Eagles game and they still averaged only 3.5 yards per carry.  They basically just ran on every play and got into 3rd and 3 and less, and ran on those also.

 

Against the Texans yet we’re miserable on third down but got away with it because they were playing the Texans.  
 

The two places where having an expanded playbook shows up is 3rd down and redzone.  And apart from the Eagles game we’ve been bad at both for entirety of the last 6 games.

 

The thing is, the defense and this putrid offense might be good enough to win 10 games.  So I’d keep doing what you’re doing for this year.  But don’t confuse why it’s working.  It’s working because of the defense.  If the defense comes out against Atlanta and gives up 2 TDs quickly somehow, this offense will have no answers.  

 

the plays that we're missing though, we were mostly failing to execute when Wentz was in there.  In fact Turner's been our OC for three years and we've had like six different QBs and we haven't been able to execute those plays.

 

And I mean really good teams are able to repeat the plays and execute them.  We've all heard about the Hogs telling defenses what was coming. 

[CommanderCarson]

Someone tell me this. If it were so easy and he was doing nothing to help the team win and just along for the ride, why is QB considered the most important position in football? Why are teams like the Browns handing out fully guaranteed contracts to crooks like Watson? Teams tripping all over themselves and sending 3 first rounders to get an upgrade at the position?

 

Why the heck not just grab some dude off a couch for 8 million and run such an incredible scheme and game plan that you win more than you lose? And if Scott Turner is so amazing that he can do what almost no offensive coordinator can do, which is win games with horrible QB play, why is he not being celebrated as the next great offensive mind? Is he the next Shanny? If he’s so brilliant, why couldn’t he run the greatest show on grass with a much more talented Carson Wentz?

 

The team’s potential is limited yes. I repeat, the team’s potential is limited with Heineke and they are very unlikely to ever compete at the highest level (Super Bowl) with him as the QB. No one is saying otherwise. I repeat, no one is saying otherwise. But he’s doing something to help the team win, otherwise everyone would just go build a good roster top to bottom and roll with Joe Schmo at QB since you can cover it all up and mask all the deficiencies and essentially just not even have a QB at all. That’s essentially what we’re doing right? Idk maybe we’re just trend setters and QB is a thing or the past!

[skinny21]

5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There are a few folks who are Hivers, that just love everything about Taylor, defend him at every turn and the majority of their posting history is on him and him only.

 

But I’m speaking about a wider range than just the Hive.  I don’t even think it’s debatable that at best, Taylor is along for the ride.  That doesn’t mean he never makes positive plays.  But it does put a cap on just how good this team can be.  I simply cannot take anyone seriously that suggests somehow the coaching is more of a problem than the QB.  That’s not a shot at Taylor, the dude only has but so much in the tank.  It’s clear as day, and it’s not just the deep stuff we are missing.  But because we are winning, even though the margin is razor thin, we should all just shut up and bow down because he makes a play sometimes.  And god forbid we don’t, we are “haters”. 
 

I honestly wouldn’t even engage in what could be construed as negative talk about him, if others weren’t telling me the piss is actually rain so regularly.  I have zero issue with him and think his story is awesome, seems like a good dude, all that stuff.  But just as you say some folks go overboard with how bad he is, there’s just as much if not more overboard with how good he is.   Guys will be like Taylor isn’t the future, he’s not this or that, but then argue til they are blue in the face against any criticism about him and point fingers at everyone else.  

To be clear regarding the bold, I did say it goes both ways.

 

It’s an interesting (or maybe not, lol) little tidbit of psychology going on here with the general discussion.  The (in some cases) entrenched stances, the reductive labels - hiver/hater, the jumping on of any imprecision of expression, the way context is often abused or eschewed, and the compelling need to disagree/be right.  Good stuff, haha.

 

For me personally, it’s been a bit of a strange journey.  Not going to get into it really, but I find it funny that at the same time that I’m feeling vindicated that it was wrong (or at least hasty) to reduce Heinicke’s level of play to how he finished the year (ie defenses “figured him out”), I’m also more certain that he shouldn’t be our qb.  Don’t get me wrong, there are legitimate positives to his game, no matter how difficult to quantify/qualify, but he is just so limited.  I’m still getting a kick out of this stretch of play though and still find him kinda fun to watch.

 

Random note - I’ve also quite enjoyed seeing the “moxie” cycle play out.  First he has it, then it doesn’t exist (that was a weird take TBH), then it’s a punchline, and now it’s “well ****, I guess the dude’s got moxie” (along with whispers of “it’s just luck, it’ll turn”).

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

It’s an interesting (or maybe not, lol) little tidbit of psychology going on here with the general discussion.  The (in some cases) entrenched stances, the reductive labels - hiver/hater, the jumping on of any imprecision of expression, the way context is often abused or eschewed, and the compelling need to disagree/be right.  Good stuff, haha.

For me though, I don’t feel any need to ‘be right’ about Heinicke or really any player.  I have a day job for a reason that pays the bills, by no means do I think I’m some kind of NFL talent savant.  I don’t generally think those who embellish Heinicke’s contributions think that either.  On their end, I think it’s more about what they want to see and believe.  You can always play the ‘what if’ scenario in your mind, if you don’t believe he’s as bad as the rest of us do.

 

5 hours ago, skinny21 said:

For me personally, it’s been a bit of a strange journey.  Not going to get into it really, but I find it funny that at the same time that I’m feeling vindicated that it was wrong (or at least hasty) to reduce Heinicke’s level of play to how he finished the year (ie defenses “figured him out”), I’m also more certain that he shouldn’t be our qb.  Don’t get me wrong, there are legitimate positives to his game, no matter how difficult to quantify/qualify, but he is just so limited.  I’m still getting a kick out of this stretch of play though and still find him kinda fun to watch.

I still think we are a bit early on that though.  This years team, particularly the defense is much, much better.  If the defense was even a hair worse than they are, we probably aren’t having this conversation.  Add to that, our kicker is booting them through the uprights as well - which as we know is pivotal with this offense.  
 

Perhaps it’s just a distant and less detailed memory, but I feel like individually Heinicke played better early last year than he has this season.  

5 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

Random note - I’ve also quite enjoyed seeing the “moxie” cycle play out.  First he has it, then it doesn’t exist (that was a weird take TBH), then it’s a punchline, and now it’s “well ****, I guess the dude’s got moxie” (along with whispers of “it’s just luck, it’ll turn”).

I’m caught somewhere in between the moxie being real and the luck will turn.  There is too much data to suggest that our winning % is currently very high for the types of games we play.  The odds indicate it comes back to earth. If he elevates his play individually, because teams start stopping our run game and he is able to get it done with his arm and feet - I’ll be more inclined to believe in the moxie angle.

[redskinss]

7 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

Someone tell me this. If it were so easy and he was doing nothing to help the team win and just along for the ride, why is QB considered the most important position in football?

You answered your own question.

7 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

The team’s potential is limited yes. I repeat, the team’s potential is limited with Heineke and they are very unlikely to ever compete at the highest level (Super Bowl) with him as the QB. No one is saying otherwise. I repeat, no one is saying otherwise.

 

Nobody thinks you can't win football games with inadequate quarterback play, it's been done many times over in the nfl and we're currently doing it now but it's unsustainable. 

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by redskinss

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I like checking in on this thread and seeing that I haven’t missed anything lol…

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

Someone tell me this. If it were so easy and he was doing nothing to help the team win and just along for the ride, why is QB considered the most important position in football? Why are teams like the Browns handing out fully guaranteed contracts to crooks like Watson? Teams tripping all over themselves and sending 3 first rounders to get an upgrade at the position?

 

Why the heck not just grab some dude off a couch for 8 million and run such an incredible scheme and game plan that you win more than you lose? And if Scott Turner is so amazing that he can do what almost no offensive coordinator can do, which is win games with horrible QB play, why is he not being celebrated as the next great offensive mind? Is he the next Shanny? If he’s so brilliant, why couldn’t he run the greatest show on grass with a much more talented Carson Wentz?

 

The team’s potential is limited yes. I repeat, the team’s potential is limited with Heineke and they are very unlikely to ever compete at the highest level (Super Bowl) with him as the QB. No one is saying otherwise. I repeat, no one is saying otherwise. But he’s doing something to help the team win, otherwise everyone would just go build a good roster top to bottom and roll with Joe Schmo at QB since you can cover it all up and mask all the deficiencies and essentially just not even have a QB at all. That’s essentially what we’re doing right? Idk maybe we’re just trend setters and QB is a thing or the past!

Cart before the horse.

 

You are speaking as if we’re going to win 4 of every 5 with this style of play from now on.

 

It’s rare that a defense sustains dominant play from season to season, sometimes even month to month or week to week.

 

There are examples of limited/bad QBs riding the wave so to speak for a stretch, even a whole season.  I can’t think of any examples though that stretch into multiple seasons.

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

the plays that we're missing though, we were mostly failing to execute when Wentz was in there.  In fact Turner's been our OC for three years and we've had like six different QBs and we haven't been able to execute those plays.

 

And I mean really good teams are able to repeat the plays and execute them.  We've all heard about the Hogs telling defenses what was coming. 

I mean, except for the fact we did execute a whole bunch  3 different games.  It’s like the fan base just didn’t watch the Jax, Detroit or Tenn games, or they are too stupid to see the differences.  We had explosive plays, stretched the field, used Gibson as both a run and pass threat, and scored more points. The problem was the OL was a total mess with Turner not healthy but playing because he had to, Larsen still on PUP, Schweitzer down, Rouiller hurt, Norwell wasn’t healthy either.   It was a disaster.  Charles was actually playing, as was that Martin guy at center who was rolling balls back to the QB when he wasn’t just falling down backwards.  

The problem is they haven’t had competent QB play and OL play at the same time in 3 years.  Last year the OL was good and the QB play was mostly wretched.  Then this year the OL play derailed the offense for 2 months. Now we’re running this 1960’s style “avoid the forward pass” offense and the OL is doing ok at run blocking but still can’t really protect.  
 

Turner isn’t perfect.  But the fact you can argue TH has produced the best QB play in the 3 years he’s been OC, and he’s at best the 25th best QB in the NFL tells you all you know about the QB play.  

 

[RandyHolt]

I liked that Turner finally rolled out and booted TH. Something I had been clamoring for. And no I don't care that it didn't work as I just wanted to see it run to keep defenses from just teeing off on him in the same spot when passing the entire season. Expand on our perennially limited playbook. Maybe it made the DC make an adjustment that Turner schemed to happen later in the game. Maybe he can get him a blocker rolling pocket or let him set his feet next time he calls it.

 

Now get back to debating and thanks in advance for posts saying we shouldn't roll or boot him.

Edited November 26, 2022 by RandyHolt

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

I like checking in on this thread and seeing that I haven’t missed anything lol…

 

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

For me though, I don’t feel any need to ‘be right’ about Heinicke or really any player.  I have a day job for a reason that pays the bills, by no means do I think I’m some kind of NFL talent savant.  I don’t generally think those who embellish Heinicke’s contributions think that either.  On their end, I think it’s more about what they want to see and believe.  You can always play the ‘what if’ scenario in your mind, if you don’t believe he’s as bad as the rest of us do.

Oh, I know.  Just as I’ve seen some chalked up as ‘hivers’ unfairly, I’ve seen you lumped in with the ‘haters’ unfairly.  But (obviously), just because you don’t fit that bill, doesn’t mean others don’t, IMO.

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I still think we are a bit early on that though.  This years team, particularly the defense is much, much better.  If the defense was even a hair worse than they are, we probably aren’t having this conversation.  Add to that, our kicker is booting them through the uprights as well - which as we know is pivotal with this offense.  
 

I agree if your point is that this situation - low scoring offense coupled with stingy defense - might not be sustainable… that we might crash back down to earth (like say only winning a game or two the rest of the year).  I was more referring to Heinicke’s play to end the year - that his performances against Dallas and the Giants were now going to be the norm (since defenses have figured him out).  

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Perhaps it’s just a distant and less detailed memory, but I feel like individually Heinicke played better early last year than he has this season.  

I’m caught somewhere in between the moxie being real and the luck will turn.  There is too much data to suggest that our winning % is currently very high for the types of games we play.  The odds indicate it comes back to earth. If he elevates his play individually, because teams start stopping our run game and he is able to get it done with his arm and feet - I’ll be more inclined to believe in the moxie angle.

For me, it’s hard to quantify/qualify his play before the bye last year, and his play since.  Totally different style of offense with a very different role for TH.  I think the perspective on TH has changed as well.  Early last year, he was a backup forced into action, but as that Cinderella feel subsided, he was then (and is now) graded on a starting qb scale.

 

I believe he has had a good deal of luck for sure.  And I’m certainly not arguing that ‘moxie’ is some unstoppable force.  I simply think it helps file the sharp edges of his limitations.  If he didn’t have it, he’d be a John Beck type of qb and would have been benched long ago.

To me, it’s a combination of 1) heads up play (quick decision-making) - kneeling vs the Eagles, heaving bad snaps out of play and such - in a stressful situation, 2) the ability to move on from bad plays, and 3) not wilting in bigger moments.  My impression is that it’s borne from intelligence, confidence, and a never-say-die attitude - a mental toughness, or elasticity, if you will.  I’ll add that I think at times those things have had a negative impact, though I think he’s improved that facet to some degree.

[IrepDC]

Heinicke's best ability has been his decision making. The obvious one I always talk about is that he goes to McClaurin often and in key situations. Another I don't see mentioned as often is how on 3rd downs, he makes great choices and mid level throws. That has kept our drives alive and gameplan in motion. One pet peeve that I developed for Wentz was his too often choice to take a deep shot on 3rd down instead of taking the shorter throw. I don’t mind the 3rd down shot when we are near the red zone and have 3 points secured, like one of Dotson's TDs, but Wentz will also take those shots on 3rd down from our own 25 for a 3 and out. In those moments he needs to take the short crosser like Heinicke has been doing. Wentz also never built a chemistry with McClaurin in camp and that spilled into the season. Wentz has great chemistry with Jahan, though, so we are seeing a trade off there currently. It would be great if all our players were in camp together. 

 

During this winning stretch, the limited passing offense has been complimentary, because Heinicke/ Turner are getting the ball to McClaurin and Heinicke is making those smart choices on 3rd down. The interesting fact about these things is that Wentz or any other QB can *potentially do the same. Hopefully Wentz has seen that good things happen when #17 gets targets, and realizes 3rd downs are for moving the sticks. Once the 2nd round pick is secured, I wouldn't be surprised if Wentz was given another shot.

 

 

[Stadium-Armory]

Stroud looks like the real deal. Sell the future to trade up, kind of guy. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

Stroud looks like the real deal. Sell the future to trade up, kind of guy. 

Just say no…

[Wyvern]

6 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

Stroud looks like the real deal. Sell the future to trade up, kind of guy. 

Ah yes, ... let's "RG3" it, again.  Roll the dice for success on a splashy 1st round pick.  ... So how much of its future does Washington sell?

 

[Stadium-Armory]

2 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Ah yes, ... let's "RG3" it, again.  Roll the dice for success on a splashy 1st round pick.  ... So how much of its future does Washington sell?

 

I get it. But all options should be considered. 

[NoCalMike]

I think a big factor can be Dotson in the red zone.  If he is healthy again then it is reasonable to expect him to get more looks down there on goal to go situations.  Before he got hurt, he was about to turn into a TD machine because his route running makes it hard to cover him 1 on 1 in quick throw/tight space situations.  Unless Dotson is being double-teamed, I am definitely looking his way on any pass play inside the 10.   However, what you also need on these types of passes are velocity and accuracy.  A pass just behind or  not thrown with enough zip can end up behind the WR and broken up, or tipped up into the air with even more disasterous results.

 

When I look overall at Heinicke, it's not just that he isn't starting QB material, but even in the grouping of QBs like a Goff, and Garappalo....two other QBs you win with but not because of, I still see them making throws that Heinicke typically doesn't.  Some of it might be playcalling, obviously we don't have a George Kittle type at TE right now so that helps Jimmy G's case, but generally speaking other than a small handful of rookies trying to figure things out before their short careers are done, I am not sure who you would rate Heinicke ahead of. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by NoCalMike

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

I think a big factor can be Dotson in the red zone.  If he is healthy again then it is reasonable to expect him to get more looks down there on goal to go situations.  Before he got hurt, he was about to turn into a TD machine because his route running makes it hard to cover him 1 on 1 in quick throw/tight space situations.  Unless Dotson is being double-teamed, I am definitely looking his way on any pass play inside the 10.   However, what you also need on these types of passes are velocity and accuracy.  A pass just behind or  not thrown with enough zip can end up behind the WR and broken up, or tipped up into the air with even more disasterous results.

 

When I look overall at Heinicke, it's not just that he isn't starting QB material, but even in the grouping of QBs like a Goff, and Garappalo....two other QBs you win with but not because of, I still see them making throws that Heinicke typically doesn't.  Some of it might be playcalling, obviously we don't have a George Kittle type at TE right now so that helps Jimmy G's case, but generally speaking other than a small handful of rookies trying to figure things out before their short careers are done, I am not sure who you would rate Heinicke ahead of. 

Yeah, I think Dotson can be a really nice asset for Heinicke, the question (IMO) is how long does it take to build the trust/chemistry.  Hopefully not long.

Garappolo is easily a better qb IMO.  He has some of Heinicke’s strengths, but not his weaknesses.  Of course, I’m sure it helps having a better supporting cast - the pass pro, ground game and scheme (I believe the WCO fits him better than Turner’s CO offense fits Taylor).  Goff, to me, is more similar to Wentz - better qb than Heinicke, but maybe not better behind this oline (and in this version of Turner’s offense).

As to who to rate ahead of Heinicke, @KDawg did a nice breakdown.  I’m not so sure it’s simply the unproven youngsters, but to each their own.

Edited November 26, 2022 by skinny21

[MrJL]

10 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, except for the fact we did execute a whole bunch  3 different games.  It’s like the fan base just didn’t watch the Jax, Detroit or Tenn games, or they are too stupid to see the differences.  We had explosive plays, stretched the field, used Gibson as both a run and pass threat, and scored more points. The problem was the OL was a total mess with Turner not healthy but playing because he had to, Larsen still on PUP, Schweitzer down, Rouiller hurt, Norwell wasn’t healthy either.   It was a disaster.  Charles was actually playing, as was that Martin guy at center who was rolling balls back to the QB when he wasn’t just falling down backwards.  

The problem is they haven’t had competent QB play and OL play at the same time in 3 years.  Last year the OL was good and the QB play was mostly wretched.  Then this year the OL play derailed the offense for 2 months. Now we’re running this 1960’s style “avoid the forward pass” offense and the OL is doing ok at run blocking but still can’t really protect.  
 

Turner isn’t perfect.  But the fact you can argue TH has produced the best QB play in the 3 years he’s been OC, and he’s at best the 25th best QB in the NFL tells you all you know about the QB play.  

 

 

we absolutely stunk in the first half of the Detroit game, we were down 22-0, so whatever we did in the second half doesn't impress me, cause we were only able to execute for half a game.  And against the Titans we we meh, and our play calling at the end was terrible

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I liked that Turner finally rolled out and booted TH. Something I had been clamoring for. And no I don't care that it didn't work as I just wanted to see it run to keep defenses from just teeing off on him in the same spot when passing the entire season. Expand on our perennially limited playbook. Maybe it made the DC make an adjustment that Turner schemed to happen later in the game. Maybe he can get him a blocker rolling pocket or let him set his feet next time he calls it.

 

Now get back to debating and thanks in advance for posts saying we shouldn't roll or boot him.

I didn't see many roll-outs or boots, but maybe there were a few.    A few here or there is good, especially if it comes with an option for him to run.  I do think they should roll him out and run him more.  They don't want to do that, and that's somewhat baffling.  

 

The problem with him moving is he can't set his feet to throw, and as he moves, he drags defenders with him.  So, windows tighten. And his velocity drops.  Now, if there is a guy wide open, it works great.  

 

The play Peyton used to run with the Colts to great success was a PA to one side, and then boot around to the other.  So the defense has to at least initially flow with the Run Action, and then the QB can come out the back side, should have a little more time without pulling everything with him.  And he could actually set up and throw.  

 

I haven't seen us use that type of concept.  I don't honestly know why more teams don't do it.  It doesn't take a ton of athleticism to do (Peyton wasn't exactly mobile), it gets the defense flowing one way, then forces them back the other way.   The big problem is if the back-side DE just stays home, you might have a guy in the QB's face quickly.  The solution to that is to hand the ball off, because then the DE has removed themselves from the play.  Hence why James got a lot of yards on that same play when they decided to hand it off.

 

As an aside, one thing which is maddening in today's NFL is there just isn't nearly as much nuance to setting things up and having a complementary run/pass game.  There are so many specialists, this back is good at this, this TE is good at that, etc. we like this run concept, we like this pass concept, the marrying of the run and pass game has become divorced.  

 

The truly great offensive minds, like Walsh, Reid, Holmgren, Shanahan, GIbbs, and early Norv had such a tight bond between the run and pass games.  Everything complemented everything else.  Martz did the same thing with the Greatest Show on Turf Rams. 

 

Offenses have just become so much less linked together.  Now it's "I have a great play for 3rd and 6" vs. "I have an entire offense that builds on itself and the defense will never know what we're going to do when."

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

we absolutely stunk in the first half of the Detroit game, we were down 22-0, so whatever we did in the second half doesn't impress me, cause we were only able to execute for half a game.  And against the Titans we we meh, and our play calling at the end was terrible

The first half of the Detroit game our entire OL was in shambles.  Rouiller, Schweitzer, everybody went down.  Joe Montana in his prime wouldn't have been able to do anything with that situation with Bill Walsh calling plays.  It was a complete non-start.  

 

The second half was damn impressive.  We pulled to within 8 twice.  With a leaky OL and with the defense being putrid.  

 

Here's the thing: if this was the TH led offense with this style, they lose 45-0.  They are down 22-0 at the half, there is no chance for explosive plays or to catch up. 

 

Which is why I keep saying, as long as the defense is shutting people down, this can work.  The minute they don't, they will get blown out.  Unless they can go 75% on 3rd down and control the clock for 40 minutes.  

 

And in the Titans game, they actually had a good offensive day, except for 1 thing, which is exactly the same problem as with TH: 3rd down conversions.  They went 1-11.  But Wentz ended with 345 yards and 2 TDs. TH was 2-9 on third down passing against the Texans.  2-9, and 1 didn't result in a first down.

 

I agree, the end of the game play calling was crap. They had to do something more creative than they did.  

 

 

[skinny21]

@Voice_of_ReasonIf I’m thinking of the same play, doesn’t the qb have his back to the DE at the mesh point?  I think our version of that is out of the pistol, so the qb can read the DE.  We’ve run it on occasion, but for whatever reason (I have a guess), the DE is crashing on the qb and Heinicke has had to throw off platform to get it to the first level receiver (Humphries/Milne last year, can’t recall this year).

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Voice_of_ReasonIf I’m thinking of the same play, doesn’t the qb have his back to the DE at the mesh point?  I think our version of that is out of the pistol, so the qb can read the DE.  We’ve run it on occasion, but for whatever reason (I have a guess), the DE is crashing on the qb and Heinicke has had to throw off platform to get it to the first level receiver (Humphries/Milne last year, can’t recall this year).

The pistol play we run doesn’t have the QB move, if I’m thinking of the same one you are. The Peyton play, the play action is actually part of a sprint out, so the handoff would take place about where they OT would line up for some type of a zone-stretch run.  
 

The backside DE is supposed to be blocked down towards the play side by the OT.  Often times, the DE runs himself out of the play.  However, if you catch them staying at home, you hand the ball off because the OT will ignore the DE and open a second level against a LB because he wouldn’t have anybody to block.

 

Which is why the DE typically flows with the play and the QB has a free release.