The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[TheShredder]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I wish I was going to camp where I can make my own judgements about it.  But judging by Bram, Keim and Paulsen and others who have watched him.

 

Seems like Wentz's weakness is hitting WRs sort of a in a bulls eye kind of way.  According to the overall rap, the WRs have to adjust to his throws, up, down, etc and he doesn't always hit them in stride to set up YAC.  If so I think we have the WRs that can deal with that well. 

 

His strength is he gets the ball out quick and has a rocket.   According to Bram, he looked good when they did the quick game on some throws -- his theory is Wentz is better when he's not thinking too much. 

Absurd to garner any true value from Commanders media outlet. These aren't unbiased analysts when they're on your payroll; on your platform; pushing your narrative. No value.

 

No QB hits a bullseye with the majority of pass attempts. It was and isn't a bullseye problem, rather it's been directly identified to be mechanics. Wentz was essentially left un-coached and/or un-coachable in PHI 2020. Refused to even talk to Pederson for months because he felt like they were dishonest, two-faced and went back on their promises. Big deal where he needed WRs and instead they draft a QB!!  I'd be pissed too. From there he didn't trust the WR's and held the ball too long hoping someone would get open (which never happened). Then he get sacked, throw a bad pick, it was a downhill, on fire, catch 22 as they screwed him and he knew it. They wanted him out. Anyway, he formed bad habits, poor mechanics, and it included reading defense keys.

 

Kurt Warner pointed out these issues and worked with Wentz in the offseason. His footwork to the left was the worst, but the dumpoffs to both sides were mechanically flawed. I've posted the video before in this thread. The other issues include not reading the correct key defender as the plays are designed for the defensive formation he was facing. This is the biggest problem, not overthrowing a 10 yd flank.

 

[FootballZombie]

13 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Absurd to garner any true value from Commanders media outlet. These aren't unbiased analysts when they're on your payroll; on your platform; pushing your narrative. No value.

 

I'm pretty sure it was one of those dudes that said we had the definitive best TE group we've had in a decade, even without Logan no less.

 

All this after only watching the group practice against air in shorts as both pads and contact are not allowed in the early offseason.

 

No... just no...

 

 

Always happy to get info from them, but at that moment I knew how much salt I had to "take" with any take from those sources.

 

 

[TheShredder]

25 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Always happy to get info from them, but at that moment I knew how much salt I had to "take" with any take from those sources.

Gotta just give myself a paper cut every time Julie Donaldson starts spewing analysis or attempting to stretch her football knowledge into making a point.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I'm pretty sure it was one of those dudes that said we had the definitive best TE group we've had in a decade, even without Logan no less.

 

All this after only watching the group practice against air in shorts as both pads and contact are not allowed in the early offseason.

 

No... just no...

 

 

Always happy to get info from them, but at that moment I knew how much salt I had to "take" with any take from those sources.

 

So I'm going to defend Bram and to some extent, Logan Paulsen.  

 

Bram is about as even in his coverage of the Commanders as you can expect, especially on his radio show which has no affiliation with the team whatsoever.  He will call it like he sees it, and if it's bad, he'll say it's bad.  If it's good, he'll say it's good.  He was critical of things last year when it was appropriate.  

 

Is he ever going to be over-the-top with criticism?  No, and you can't expect that because he is the radio broadcaster.  

 

But he did not assume the Larry Michael role (that's more Julie, we'll get to her in a second), he just calls the games and has an unaffiliated radio show.

 

I think given his role with the team, he is still able to separate and be critical.  

 

Paulsen is a lot like Cooley, who was also on the team payroll.  He does study film and then does his version of the film breakdown.  He has been critical of Wentz, for example, saying there are parts of his game which really aren't great, including accuracy.  

 

He's probably the guy who said they had a great TE room even without Logan Thomas.  And he's entitled to that opinion for a couple of reasons: 1) he played TE.  2) he's watched a ton of film, including college film of the guys we have on the roster.    

 

Also FWIW, Cooley said Turner was going to over-take Thomas sooner rather than later on his appearance on Sheehan's podcast a month or so ago.

 

Paulsen does acknowledge it's on potential, and they have to go out and do it.  But he really likes Turner and Bates.  I think there's another backup guy he really likes but I can't remember who it is. 

 

The other thing to consider with our TE rooms is they haven't been very good for a while.  The best recently was when we had Vernon Davis and Reed, probably.    But Reed was always hurt.  It's been a while since we've had a really good and deep TE group.  

 

 

41 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Gotta just give myself a paper cut every time Julie Donaldson starts spewing analysis or attempting to stretch her football knowledge into making a point.

I like Julie for what she is and the role she plays.  She is the mouthpiece for the team, and that's fine.  Nothing wrong with it.  She's miles better than Larry Michael (no S, just Larry Michael.)  

 

She's not going to be overly critical of the team, but I think she does well conducting interviews on behalf of the team.  Whereas Michael would give the answer to the question he asked so whoever he was interviewing just had to agree with the party line, Dolaldson actually asks questions and then lets people answer them.  

 

Hers is not going to be hard hitting investigative style reporting or questioning, and it's not meant to be. 

 

She's a mouthpiece, and a pretty good one, I think.  If you want actual reporting, you have to go to Keim or Standig, who seem to be the best of the bunch.   I also like Nicki Jhabvala, but I despise the Washington Post (and have for decades), so I don't read her stuff there.  

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

 

I do not expect unbiased breakdowns from any of them, nor should they be expected to provide it given the positions there are in/have been in. A large part of Julie's job is to paint us in the best possible light for example, so she is gonna do what she can to do that. Its not like she loses respect or credibility when she does so, she's doing exactly what she should be doing.

 

Going back to the Larry example, its like getting the skintangables check-box no matter who we played, even juggernauts. Was it outrageously biased? Sure, but that was the point.

 

That being the case, I put everything they report on an absolute curve for the same reasons. To his credit, Bram's curve is the smallest.

Edited July 23, 2022 by FootballZombie

[zCommander]

8 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Besides @zCommanderand his 11 or 12 win expectation for Carson, the expectations across the board have never been lower. 

 

The Madden ratings are a joke. They are based on last year which to me doesn't do **** for me.

 

I am looking at McLaurin, Dotson, Samuel, Thomas, Bates, McKissic and Gibson. That is a hell of talent for any QB to be surrounded by. I might not be too high on Wentz but what he has to play with is really good. This is why I think at minimum 11 is pretty damn good. 

 

Yes other teams might have improved too but I like what I see so far from our offense albeit it is just on paper for right now. 

 

I am not even thinking of the defense and how they will play but if they do a better job than last year then I don't know why we can't have even more wins.

[TheShredder]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I like Julie for what she is and the role she plays

Yup 😉

Edited July 23, 2022 by TheShredder

[zCommander]

A little early for look-a-like but what the hell. 

 

Commander Wentz

 

Prince Harry

[TheShredder]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

The Madden ratings are a joke. They are based on last year which to me doesn't do **** for me.

 

I am looking at McLaurin, Dotson, Samuel, Thomas, Bates, McKissic and Gibson. That is a hell of talent for any QB to be surrounded by. I might not be too high on Wentz but what he has to play with is really good. This is why I think at minimum 11 is pretty damn good. 

 

Yes other teams might have improved too but I like what I see so far from our offense albeit it is just on paper for right now. 

 

I am not even thinking of the defense and how they will play but if they do a better job than last year then I don't know why we can't have even more wins.

Video game ratings are a joke, specifically when they're titled a year in advance with rankings from a year in the past.

 

I don't think you have to resolve being a Wentz critic. We'll all be watching with our dissecting scalpels and self administering liquid anesthesia.

 

Defense is a whole level deeper in anxiety and exercise in breath-holding. Probably the deciding factor for double digit wins.

[Simmsy]

On 7/17/2022 at 4:08 PM, Koolblue13 said:

Which is why staying in that washing machine longer than needed is a bad idea.

You shouldn't stay in the washing machine...I say this a week later...

[Tundra scout]

9 hours ago, zCommander said:

A little early for look-a-like but what the hell. 

 

Commander Wentz

 

Prince Harry

This comparison was first brought up when he was a rookie in Philly. No doubt they could be twins 

[formerly4skins]

10 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Video game ratings are a joke, specifically when they're titled a year in advance with rankings from a year in the past.

 

100% agree that video game ratings are a joke. But, they're not always a year out of date...EA pushes periodic ratings updates to their terrible game as the season goes on. 

 

Looking more closely, the reason Wentz overall is a meager 73 is largely because they've given him a terrible awareness rating (69, heh). All his throwing ratings are actually pretty darn good.  Will be interesting to see how they adjust Wentz a few weeks into the season. 

 

https://www.ea.com/games/madden-nfl/player-ratings/player-name/Carson Wentz/17543

[Skinsinparadise]

18 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Absurd to garner any true value from Commanders media outlet. These aren't unbiased analysts when they're on your payroll; on your platform; pushing your narrative. No value.

 

No QB hits a bullseye with the majority of pass attempts. It was and isn't a bullseye problem, rather it's been directly identified to be mechanics.

 

OK maybe you got Wentz's issues nailed and Logan Paulsen and others don't have a clue about what they are talking about.   I don't know.

 

My main point is I like to judge it with my own eyes and have done so in previous camps, I am sadly (sad for me) not doing it this time. 

 

But yeah its possible Logan doesn't get it as far as understanding Wentz's game or he does indeed get it and is making up a narrative that the Commanders want him to purport -- though not sure why they want Logan to talk about accuracy issues but who knows? And Keim, Bram ditto. 

 

I got no idea.  But I've learned a lot or at least I think I have when I've watched QBs in camp especially as to accuracy and I've explained what I've seen in detail each summer i've been to camp.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

17 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

Paulsen is a lot like Cooley, who was also on the team payroll.  He does study film and then does his version of the film breakdown.  He has been critical of Wentz, for example, saying there are parts of his game which really aren't great, including accuracy.  

 

He's probably the guy who said they had a great TE room even without Logan Thomas.  And he's entitled to that opinion for a couple of reasons: 1) he played TE.  2) he's watched a ton of film, including college film of the guys we have on the roster.    

 

Also FWIW, Cooley said Turner was going to over-take Thomas sooner rather than later on his appearance on Sheehan's podcast a month or so ago.

 

 

 

I don't always agree with Paulsen.  But I'll give him four things:  A.  He studies a lot of tape -- that's clear from his references.  B.  He has contacts in the league and talks to people outside this team -- that's surfaced multiple times.  C. As a player who has played in various offenses, he has references that us laypeople don't have.    D.  He will change his mind, he's not stuck in a thought where he justifies it no matter what going forward -- he's changed his mind positive and negative on some of the players.

 

Like Cooley, Paulsen has nuance to his points but when someone posts something on twitter it gets generalized and the nuance is lost.  For example as to the TEs, he has concerns about them hitting the ground running because of all the youth on the roster.  He's simply impressed with the athleticism-talent of a bunch of these guys, likes their potential.  He didn't love the Cole Turner pick at the time but has been more impressed with him as he's watched his camp.

 

As for Wentz, Paulsen seems to have a mixed view of him, more positive than negative.  His rap doesn't seem that foreign to what most others have said about Wentz though i'd say he's a little more positive than the general rap.

 

As for Paulsen, Bram, Keim praising Wentz but also criticizing some too.  I can relate to one of their points which is throwing to the receiver where you hit them in stride.   From watching camp, you can see that stuff well because the QBs make the same throw repeatedly and then you watch the other QBs make that same throw.  I mentioned at the time that watching camp, Haskins (RIP) really struggled to hit WRs in stride in the flat outside the numbers and it was noticeable especially when watching Colt and Keenam make those same throws.  The receivers had to often to turn back to catch the ball and in turn that additional second from making that turn made it more difficult to turn upfield fast. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't always agree with Paulsen.  But I'll give him four things:  A.  He studies a lot of tape -- that's clear from his references.  B.  He has contacts in the league and talks to people outside this team -- that's surfaced multiple times.  C. As a player who has played in various offenses, he has references that us laypeople don't have.    D.  He will change his mind, he's not stuck in a thought where he justifies it no matter what going forward -- he's changed his mind positive and negative on some of the players.

 

Like Cooley, Paulsen has nuance to his points but when someone posts something on twitter it gets generalized and the nuance is lost.  For example as to the TEs, he has concerns about them hitting the ground running because of all the youth on the roster.  He's simply impressed with the athleticism-talent of a bunch of these guys, likes their potential.  He didn't love the Cole Turner pick at the time but has been more impressed with him as he's watched his camp.

 

As for Wentz, Paulsen seems to have a mixed view of him, more positive than negative.  His rap doesn't seem that foreign to what most others have said about Wentz though i'd say he's a little more positive than the general rap.

 

As for Paulsen, Bram, Keim praising Wentz but also criticizing some too.  I can relate to one of their points which is throwing to the receiver where you hit them in stride.   From watching camp, you can see that stuff well because the QBs make the same throw repeatedly and then you watch the other QBs make that same throw.  I mentioned at the time that watching camp, Haskins (RIP) really struggled to hit WRs in stride in the flat outside the numbers and it was noticeable especially when watching Colt and Keenam make those same throws.  The receivers had to often to turn back to catch the ball and in turn that additional second from making that turn made it more difficult to turn upfield fast. 

SIP, you going to camp this year?  Always love the opinions you write from being field level

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

SIP, you going to camp this year?  Always love the opinions you write from being field level

 

Thanks.   Nope.  If they did Richmond I might have.  But they are doing Ashburn this time and its not even open to everyone (which I think is a mistake) and doing a lottery system for fans to watch.

 

From my perspective it really is a great outlet to watch QBs because they are made to make the same throws again and again unlike during games.  So for example you can see their accuracy on all three levels and apples to apples with other QBs on the roster because they throw back to back.  You can see their velocity.  You can see their consistency. 

 

And at least from my perspective, some of what I saw carried into the season and gave me a window into the strengths and weaknesses of the QBs.  

 

Part of the reason why I do not dismiss what Bram, Keim, Logan Paulsen have seen in camp is IMHO you can see the QBs in sort of a naked way in camp.   And I don't think you need to be a QB guru to see that -- its pretty obvious when you watch it, it doesn't require heavy thinking. 

 

Bram for example got into a lot of detail as to what he saw in camp.  He thought Wentz in the quick game looked very sharp.  His arm strength looked very impressive.  He along with Paulsen thought he didn't throw the cleaniest ball meaning the WR had to adjust to the throws more than they'd like.  I doubt it was because Logan Paulsen who actually caught balls from NFL QBs lacks the perspective to understand QB accuracy.  I am sure he gets it way better than we do.   

 

Like i said when you watch in camp you can see the Qbs throw the same route at times 10-15 times in the span of 5 minutes -- you'd be amazed at the perspective that gives you of a player.  And yes if you watched enough camps and seen enough Qbs its not hard to do apples to apples comparisons to other QBs to help said perspective.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, formerly4skins said:

 

100% agree that video game ratings are a joke. But, they're not always a year out of date...EA pushes periodic ratings updates to their terrible game as the season goes on. 

 

Looking more closely, the reason Wentz overall is a meager 73 is largely because they've given him a terrible awareness rating (69, heh). All his throwing ratings are actually pretty darn good.  Will be interesting to see how they adjust Wentz a few weeks into the season. 

 

https://www.ea.com/games/madden-nfl/player-ratings/player-name/Carson Wentz/17543

 

  This reminds me of part of that "Ethan Albright's Open Letter To John Madden" spoof from many years ago where Albright was going after Madden for his horrible rating in Madden 2007. 

 

Ethan Albright’s Classic Open Letter to John Madden

 

Quote

It’s also pretty wonderful that my awareness rating was 59. You make it sound like I wake up in the morning, helplessly **** and piss myself, then lose three of my teeth before I discover that I am trying to eat a rock for breakfast.

 

[TheShredder]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

OK maybe you got Wentz's issues nailed and Logan Paulsen and others don't have a clue about what they are talking about.   I don't know.

Clearly if a team media source and paid representative said it then it's true, fact, and not propaganda feeding their agenda.

Save it man. Nobody's buying that and the Dan Snyder media machine is crap!

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Clearly if a team media source and paid representative said it then it's true, fact, and not propaganda feeding their agenda.

Save it man. Nobody's buying that and the Dan Snyder media machine is crap!

 

 The context of your point though throws me off. You are challenging Paulsen's criticism of Wentz because you feel you know what the real criticism of Wentz should be.  So searching for the Dan angle is tough here.  Maybe like Irsay, Dan is out on Wentz from the jump and wants the fans to turn against Wentz early?   And playing along why would Keim concurr considering he doesn't work for the team?

 

So I gather its some matrix move on your end where you see it where others don't, that may come off weird to people like me, but you see it clearly.  If so Dan is an even more odd and twisted dude than I've criticized him for on the FO thread.  

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 The context of your point though throws me off. You are challenging Paulsen's criticism of Wentz because you feel you know what the real criticism of Wentz should be.  So searching for the Dan angle is tough here.  Maybe like Irsay, Dan is out on Wentz from the jump and wants the fans to turn against Wentz early?   And playing along why would Keim concurr considering he doesn't work for the team?

 

So I gather its some matrix move on your end where you see it where others don't, that may come off weird to people like me, but you see it clearly.  If so Dan is an even more odd and twisted dude than I've criticized him for on the FO thread.  

 

 

 

Yeah I think that's giving way too much credit to Snyder and his people. They're mostly buffoons who usually manage to screw up even the most basic of media rollouts. The idea that they're playing some sort of complicated 4D chess on the Wentz situation is a bit far fetched..

 

That being said...on the Matrix thing, you never know...

 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I think that's giving way too much credit to Snyder and his people. They're mostly buffoons who usually manage to screw up even the most basic of media rollouts. The idea that they're playing some sort of complicated 4D chess on the Wentz situation is a bit far fetched..

 

That being said...on the Matrix thing, you never know...

 

 

Yeah I know, Dan IMO has the football and PR IQ of a grapefruit let alone controlling the narrative with what Logan Paulsen says about Wentz.  And if Paulsen is being controlled by the team -- lol, the team then is a bit warped in that case because Paulsen has criticized so many aspects of this team. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Simmsy]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:39 PM, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Had you left that last part off, I guarantee you there would have been at least 14 people who thought you were being serious lol...Heinicke lovers/haters, Newton lovers/haters, and those who need to replace the batteries in their sarcasm detectors.

Sooo....I CAN'T buy a Commanthers jersey?

[Thinking Skins]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:55 PM, TheShredder said:

Absurd to garner any true value from Commanders media outlet. These aren't unbiased analysts when they're on your payroll; on your platform; pushing your narrative. No value.

 

No QB hits a bullseye with the majority of pass attempts. It was and isn't a bullseye problem, rather it's been directly identified to be mechanics. Wentz was essentially left un-coached and/or un-coachable in PHI 2020. Refused to even talk to Pederson for months because he felt like they were dishonest, two-faced and went back on their promises. Big deal where he needed WRs and instead they draft a QB!!  I'd be pissed too. From there he didn't trust the WR's and held the ball too long hoping someone would get open (which never happened). Then he get sacked, throw a bad pick, it was a downhill, on fire, catch 22 as they screwed him and he knew it. They wanted him out. Anyway, he formed bad habits, poor mechanics, and it included reading defense keys.

 

Kurt Warner pointed out these issues and worked with Wentz in the offseason. His footwork to the left was the worst, but the dumpoffs to both sides were mechanically flawed. I've posted the video before in this thread. The other issues include not reading the correct key defender as the plays are designed for the defensive formation he was facing. This is the biggest problem, not overthrowing a 10 yd flank.

 

What I'm watching for (and no I'm not going to camp) is not really ball placement, but more of the how quickly he is making decisions, getting the ball out, and getting it to defenders. 

 

Its one thing to say that his inaccurate balls are costing YAC, but first comes the catch then the YAC. And if Wentz can beat pressures and make completions its a step up. The next thing is the placement question. And someone said back that's probably why we're looking at catch radius more and sticky hands so that they can bail him out.  Some of the best plays on the highlight reel are somewhat bad passes that WRs make acrobatic catches. And if the WR already has a step on his man and can make the catch then its still a TD. I think about the Heinicke passes to McLaurin, one on the sideline that was a jump ball and the other a TD in the ATL game and both weren't great passes but they gave him a chance. I want Wentz to do that. 

 

That said, After Terry I do wonder about our WRs ability to do this. Everybody talks about this being some of the best weapons set he's ever had and I agree with Terry and maybe Johan. But Samuel? Brown? SIms? I'd put Thomas in that category and probably Bates (minus the athleticism), but Hodges? Turner? I mean I LOVE Sims, but he is known for some untimely drops. And Brown has shown me nothing. In my imaginary depth chart he's starting behind Grant. 

[Thinking Skins]

I just read an article about catchable balls and how before Elway it was just about throwing it quickly but he destroyed so many hands that it was about catchability too.

 

Interestingly enough one thing about QBs that throw hard is that most of their interceptions are of their WRs hands, as the DBs can't normally catch them either. 

[Skinsinparadise]