The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I think the Brissett likes being a back up talk is overstated. He’s clearly a top professional who’s says and does the right things. 
 

id wager he’s here because he sees the starting gig being very attainable.

I get that. It's one of the easiest paths to start for him and I'm sure he want to. I was just making two point. Sam doesn't need that motivation, he has plenty. And Jaco has proven to be a great asset as a back up.

[kingdaddy]

11 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I still think (most) everyone is sleeping on Howell. 
@Koolblue13 I think your take on Drake Maye vs. Howell is uninformed. First, Drake is a top pick worthy prospect and Howell is below that (in my mind). But to say Maye did way better with the same weapons ain’t true.

 

After his junior year, UNC had the weakest group of skill position players I can ever remember (as a long time fan, we’ve generally had solid backs and receivers). 
 

Maye benefitted from an improved OLine and also a couple of sophomore/freshmen receivers who stepped up to complement Josh Downs. Howell got no such luxury. When Josh Downs went out, he had nowhere to go with the ball. Nowhere. Maye also benefited from a much more diverse and talented RB room.

 

Howell has tremendous arm talent (there’s an effortless appearance to his throws) and underrated vision as a runner. He will score points and put this team in the end zone. 
 

I understand the “wait and see crowd”, but Maye vs. Howell feels like a manufactured criticism by a disgruntled fan in the doldrums of the off-season. 
 

ETA: And all of the “fire Ron for tampering with Andrew Luck!” peeps should step forward and own their ridiculous, knee jerk, over the top reaction to a cooked up story by the most insane owner in the NFL. 😆

I think we'll find out in camp if Howell is gonna be legit or not because if he's not picking up and executing what EB is selling then we may see Brissett sooner than later. That being said, I think Howell is a baller and is gonna do well. He has too many weapons and too much talent to not do well and he can run. I seriously see a lot of similarities to Jalen Hurts in Howell only Howell has a better arm. Hopefully Howell has the moxie and confidence that Hurts plays with. I think he will.

[skinny21]

I somewhat disagree that the staff has flunked in terms of Howell’s situation, but I also can’t argue with the idea that they could have done better… probably much better.

They decided to roll with their current TEs - maybe Thomas gets his legs back, maybe the young guys make significant strides.  There’s a healthy dose of hoping this works out when they could have added another guy to the group from a fairly deep draft (for the position).

Made some changes at oline, but it has the same feel as it does with the TEs - lots of hope, not much in the way of proven talent.

Both of those positions are hugely important to qbs, but even more so younger qbs.  Fair to feel this is setting Howell up to fail.

 

On the other hand, they’ve given Howell a pretty good group of weapons between our receivers and Gibson.  They built a defense that hasn’t given up many points (mitigating the need for Howell to win shootouts and allowing him to live for another set of downs).  And now they added a ballhawk to try to give him the ball back more often.  They have a stable of backs that can pick up yards after contact, wear down defenses, can be rotated to stay fresh, and can help finish out games.  And of course, they added EB.  No telling how that works out, but I can see their reasons for optimism on that front.  Again, fair to point out the change in offense (learning a new system) is a detriment to development trajectory, but I also think we can all agree that Turner’s offense was not the best.

 

I think I’ve said this previously, but oddly enough (given Howell hasn’t proven himself at all yet), I’m more optimistic about Howell than I am his supporting cast.  If he doesn’t pan out, my bet is that it will be due to poor oline/TE play and regime change rather than his talent/character.

[DWinzit]

58 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Dudes an underdog about to be an NFL starting QB and nobody outside of half of our fans and a few stragglers think he can do it.

 

If Jacoby Brissett is the motivating factor, we're in trouble.   

 

He's actually a perfect QB for us to have, because he's cool being the back up and helping young guys. It's a perfect situation. 

 

42 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I get that. It's one of the easiest paths to start for him and I'm sure he want to. I was just making two point. Sam doesn't need that motivation, he has plenty. And Jaco has proven to be a great asset as a back up.

I think you are downplaying Brissett. I am a fan of his and loved his signing here...wished they signed him a couple years back.

 

Yes I want Howell to start and do great so Brissett never sees the field but he is a legit QB that we need to have. He will provide competition that will motivate Howell more than just being handed a job after one start and he can serve as a mentor. I am confident with Brissett that if Howell falters or is injured that he can step in. Wish we had a better QB3 also. 

 

43 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We have a top 5 defense with almost everyone returning and I like Forbes and think he's a home run pick. Quan should be good.

 

But with our offense being in question, if we had drafted Mayer/Kincad and then Mauch/Bergeron. Still taken Strom in the third? This would have done wonders.

 

It also allows us to cut Thomas and free up more money to have signed better OL then we did. That would have been a great building block for Sam.

 

Heck, starting Sam and giving him Mayer and JMS to grow up with would have been huge. Go sign McGlintchy for RT instead of the two guys we brought in and this offense looks perennially exciting. 

YUP! I'd add Laporta to your TE list and totally agree with Mauch and Berg, especially Berg.

Also possibly Anton added to the OL

Edited May 22, 2023 by DWinzit
Added last line

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

It’s amazing what an off-season of disappointment can do to people’s thoughts on a player (Howell). The same people who were all about him/gushing are now more down than up. 
 

It’s kind of strange to see unfold. People’s opinions sway with the breeze. The breeze is blowing against the Commanders so the opinions on Howell are going that direction as well.

 

We’ll see. I’ve never said he is a franchise QB definitively. To say that without sample size and proof is foolish. But I think he can be. And I won’t flip.

 

With the sale of the team it was a blessing and a curse for Howell.

 

Blessing in he will get a shot at starting because we knew that there wasn't going to be any splash signing with the sale being imminent and a transition year. Curse because he will need play really good football and prove the doubters wrongs but has to do it with his very first start. Also going against him is that our schedule is not easy like last year and with marginal upgrade to the OL and the new owners might/will clean out the house and the new coach probably will/want his own QB.

 

It is a tall order for Howell this year. He needs to show flashes of brilliance and franchise QB traits for him to be back next year as the starter. At worse he will be backup for us and just might get another shot with the new ownership. Lots of things needs to align for Howell. I want him to be our franchise QB. Have been waiting too long for that to happen. I will hold on to that small hope. 

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Heck even with QBs I didn't like before the draft like Haskins -- when he teased a little at the end of the first season and Rivera started selling he's a new guy as far as work ethic goes, I started thinking well maybe I should give the dude a chance? 

 

I thought Haskins had a real chance at the end of that season. He had looked like an NFL QB in a game plan put together by O'Connell which asked him to do what he was good at . I really wanted us to keep O'Connell as the OC that offseason for continuity but he was allowed the lateral move to the Rams. I was high on Haskins chances coming into the next season based on the progression we saw in those last two games. "If he can just maintain that progression ...' etc etc.

 

Fast forward again we have a young QB who looked good in limited late season action, with a new OC and system to adjust to. There are parallels.

 

I think the difference is Haskins had legit question marks about his off field habits and how much he really worked at/loved the game, by all accounts Howell is a gym and film rat - that gives him more of a chance. 

[philibusters]

25 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

I thought Haskins had a real chance at the end of that season. He had looked like an NFL QB in a game plan put together by O'Connell which asked him to do what he was good at . I really wanted us to keep O'Connell as the OC that offseason for continuity but he was allowed the lateral move to the Rams. I was high on Haskins chances coming into the next season based on the progression we saw in those last two games. "If he can just maintain that progression ...' etc etc.

 

Fast forward again we have a young QB who looked good in limited late season action, with a new OC and system to adjust to. There are parallels.

 

I think the difference is Haskins had legit question marks about his off field habits and how much he really worked at/loved the game, by all accounts Howell is a gym and film rat - that gives him more of a chance. 

 

I was in the same boat.  With hindsight, people are going to ask, how could you have been excited for Haskins.  But I thought the last 3 or 4 games of 2019 he played reasonably well (albeit against weak competition).  He came out pretty meh to start the 2020 season, but honestly he wasn't truly terrible.  The offense was stalling, but he wasn't turning over the ball.  I think if he had been a better worker, he probably would have had a longer leash in 2020.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 5/20/2023 at 5:42 PM, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I won't blame ANY front office not giving Kirk a fully-guaranteed contract after 1 year of starting. Especially after seeing how he flamed out the year before after starting off hot. Even Scot McCloughan thought giving him a big contract like what you're suggesting was a mistake at the time. I get how someone like Bruce--who used to be a player agent--would think the normal back and forth negotiation would be the way both sides end up going. If I blame him for anything Kirk-related I blame him for not trading him in 2017, but not for not giving him a fully guaranteed contract, And for the life of me I can't figure out how any GM or team president was supposed to somehow know in 2016 that fully-guaranteed contracts were just a few years away so might as well get started on them now. And you know a bunch of other teams and GMs would have been furious for us setting that precedent--possibly damaging whatever good relationships we still had with other franchises--not to mention the media and fans who would have criticized the team at the time for yet again thinking throwing money at players is the way to go lol...

 

I still think the only reason the Vikings went ahead and did a fully guaranteed contract was not because they were forward-thinking, but because they truly thought they'd be Super Bowl bound with the upgrade at QB they felt Kirk offered them. I think they've won 1 playoff game with him and his contract instead, and went through 3 different OCs. Would they really have been THAT much worse off if they told Kirk "Nah, that's ok. You go to the Jets instead"?

 

So, I kindof do, insofar as they had no other options for the next 2 years and they were going to pay him $44m on the tag over 2 years. To me, the big mistake was allowing him to get to the tag.  Once they put him on the tag, he was a 10-15 QB making top 5 guaranteed money.  Which sets the floor. They had to know, as soon as they put the tag on him, the MINIMUM guaranteed money he would sign for was $68 million.  Because that's the sum of 3 tags, which were fully guaranteed.  

 

You have to forward-think this thing: Would he have taken a fully guaranteed $18M deal for 3 years?  Maybe.  He damn well would have taken a $20m.  

 

The other way to think about it would have been to offer Kirk a 5 year deal with the first 3 guaranteed.  Which would have been mostly "normal."  Would the agent have agreed to that?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  But if not, then you drop the last 2 years and make it a fully guaranteed 3 year deal.  Which we knew he would take because he took one 2 years later with the Vikings.  

 

Now, I would have blamed them for offering Kirk a 5 year, fully guaranteed deal.  That's insane.  But 3?  With 2 years (minimum) of franchise tag levels guaranteed, and then losing him in the 3rd year for nothing?  That's also insane.  

They had no plan for 2016 or 2017, he showed he was at least competent, and if you sign him to a 3 year deal, you can evaluate in the first year, if he stinks, draft a guy in the second year, and transition.  Is there a risk?  Yes.  Could they have had to take a big hit to get out of his contract after 2 years?  Yeah.  But they had no backup plan, they didn't have a developmental guy on the roster, they were about to release Griffin.  

 

However, the alternative is to franchise tag him, and then you've set the bare minimum of per/year at top 5 QB level.  Which he is not.  

 

Once they franchised him, they needed to trade him immediately.  At the absolute worst, they should have traded him after 2016 after they placed the second tag on him. 

 

What they did was criminal negligence.  But it all started with being stupid in the 2016 off-season. 

 

Cooley reported they thought he was "the best of the good."  Fine.  But they paid him for 2 years as a top 5 guy anyway.  Then let him walk for a conditional 3rd round pick.  Which is just completely idiotic.  

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I agree, a fully guaranteed deal after 2015 sounds crazy.  But a 5 year deal with 3 years guaranteed does not.  Lop off the last 2 years, and they're basically offering him the same thing without the window dressing.  And that would have been shrewd.  It would have, in the end, probably cost Kirk $30m of career earnings, also.  

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Y’all some old scab picking at mother****ers around here. 😆

 

**** Kurt and **** Bruce. 
 

Excited for OTAs and to see what EB has in store for the offense. I really don’t get all the negativity right now. Snyder just sold. We’re about to move up.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

I thought Haskins had a real chance at the end of that season. He had looked like an NFL QB in a game plan put together by O'Connell which asked him to do what he was good at . I really wanted us to keep O'Connell as the OC that offseason for continuity but he was allowed the lateral move to the Rams. I was high on Haskins chances coming into the next season based on the progression we saw in those last two games. "If he can just maintain that progression ...' etc etc.

 

 

I was really down on Haskins once I dived in closer to that draft.   I was so against getting him, along with volsmet at the time, that we openly rooted for him to go before our pick to ensure we didn't get him. 

 

In retrospect the story that came out later about Kyle Smith telling Dan are we really doing this as to Dan insisting on Haskins with the pick -- when Kyle had a third round grade on him -- it going to be in the mix of some of the all time stories as to the Dan reign. 

 

But even with all of that, once we have a QB in house, I'll of course root for that QB hard.  And I took some hope from Haskins performance in the 1.5 games he played at the end of that season.  And then Rivera started saying that Haskins is a new person as to his work ethic.  So for a brief time, I had a little hope about him even though in real time that was the pick I hated the most of all of their moves at QB.

 

 

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

 

I think the difference is Haskins had legit question marks about his off field habits and how much he really worked at/loved the game, by all accounts Howell is a gym and film rat - that gives him more of a chance. 

 

Yeah I love everything I've read about Howell's work ethic.  And agree it gives him a chance.

 

Read mostly good things about his personality.  I have heard plenty of times he's not the most outgoing personality, nice guy but on the quiet side.  He bills himself as this big time leader.  I've never been a fan when people annoit themselves as leaders.   And he does it a lot.   If you are leader IMO, lead, don't tell anyone who will listen how much of a leader you are -- and the fact that's he's not the most extroverted dude and his NC coach said he's more of a leader by example guy -- makes the whole need to tell people he's a leader come off a bit quirky to me.

 

That's the only quirk in my opinion he has as a personality.  Everything else I dig. 
 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Y’all some old scab picking at mother****ers around here. 😆

 

**** Kurt and **** Bruce. 
 

Excited for OTAs and to see what EB has in store for the offense. I really don’t get all the negativity right now. Snyder just sold. We’re about to move up.

 

 

Dan selling is everything.  So love that.  Everything else doesn't matter as to big picture.  And I've been a big Josh Harris fan even before it became clear he'd be the guy.  So i am giddy.

 

I've been borderline pollyana about our seasons over the years.  I've had Ron's back so much I should be on his PR payroll.  But maybe shifting from positive to negative on Ron is a good omen -- maybe it all goes down the opposite way for me?    Maybe its a surprise big season?  I think Ron did a crap job this off season.   Both as to building a winning roster or adding any juice.   But maybe I am wrong will see his hand play out soon enough and he still has some time to add to the roster. 

 

Maybe some of that is selfish on my end, I desperately want to take my kids to a playoff game before they leave the nest.  At the start of this off season I thought it was possible this season-- now am thinking almost no shot. And I am not negative on Ron in general.  But I am just negative on him going forward -- feels like its dancing with a partner in marriage and considering it, having some good times, no regrets but also hitting the conclusion hard that they aren't the one.  

 

But I do think Ron has helped set them up possibly to get a higher draft pick next off season.  And i don't think the typical fan is going to give new ownership a hard time for this group leading the team to a bad season if it happens since they are tied to past ownership.  Especially in Ron's case considering he's the only dude I can tell who is praising Dan right to the bitter end.  But overall, there is a lot to be juiced about, no matter what happens, including even Ron potentially setting up a bad season has upside to it. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Darth Tater]

Thing about Haskins was that his only two Ws as a rookie came in his two worst starts. Covid really hurt him or at least prevented Rivera and company getting a good read on him before the season (though, so far, I'm not impressed by this staffs' QB choices of course was it Scott or Ron that was the real issue here?). A lot of the short-leash was probably also due to Rivera's health.  In Haskins' defense, well Scott Turner, a defensive minded HC and his status as a Snyder pick.

[Darth Tater]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Dan selling is everything.  So love that.  Everything else doesn't matter as to big picture.  And I've been a big Josh Harris fan even before it became clear he'd be the guy.  So i am giddy.

 

I've been borderline pollyana about our seasons over the years.  I've had Ron's back so much I should be on his PR payroll.  But maybe shifting from positive to negative on Ron is a good omen -- maybe it all goes down the opposite way for me?    Maybe its a surprise big season?  I think Ron did a crap job this off season.   Both as to building a winning roster or adding any juice.   But maybe I am wrong will see his hand play out soon enough and he still has some time to add to the roster. 

 

Maybe some of that is selfish on my end, I desperately want to take my kids to a playoff game before they leave the nest.  At the start of this off season I thought it was possible this season-- now am thinking almost no shot. And I am not negative on Ron in general.  But I am just negative on him going forward -- feels like its dancing with a partner in marriage and considering it, having some good times, no regrets but also hitting the conclusion hard that they aren't the one.  

 

But I do think Ron has helped set them up possibly to get a higher draft pick next off season.  And i don't think the typical fan is going to give new ownership a hard time for this group leading the team to a bad season if it happens since they are tied to past ownership.  Especially in Ron's case considering he's the only dude I can tell who is praising Dan right to the bitter end.  But overall, there is a lot to be juiced about, no matter what happens, including even Ron potentially setting up a bad season has upside to it. 

I don't think Ron did a crap job this off season. I actually think that this was his best. I think the problem is how we F'd up the first 3. The only good thing we had (oline) was ignored and actually a bit attacked. You can forgive him some for missing on a QB in 2020 (can make the argument that a former #1 needed a chance and Young was DROY), 2021 (his plan didn't include an exploding thigh and the guy he really wanted was not coming here) and 2023 (tell me, what else he should have done? Lamar was the only guy who anybody talked about that would have improved our QB room long-term and he wasn't truly available). 2022 Wentz was a real bad F'up. If anything, my problem is that the worst outcome for us is probably a 12-13 rounder and I think its very likely we end up with one in the late teens early 20s. That could be a bad outcome given that if we improve our starting field position to just average and become just average in TOs (while still keeping a top 5 defense in terms of yards allowed and the best 3rd down defense in the NFL) could alone get us 2-3 more net wins.

[samy316]

13 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

I don't think Ron did a crap job this off season. I actually think that this was his best. I think the problem is how we F'd up the first 3. The only good thing we had (oline) was ignored and actually a bit attacked. You can forgive him some for missing on a QB in 2020 (can make the argument that a former #1 needed a chance and Young was DROY), 2021 (his plan didn't include an exploding thigh and the guy he really wanted was not coming here) and 2023 (tell me, what else he should have done? Lamar was the only guy who anybody talked about that would have improved our QB room long-term and he wasn't truly available). 2022 Wentz was a real bad F'up. If anything, my problem is that the worst outcome for us is probably a 12-13 rounder and I think its very likely we end up with one in the late teens early 20s. That could be a bad outcome given that if we improve our starting field position to just average and become just average in TOs (while still keeping a top 5 defense in terms of yards allowed and the best 3rd down defense in the NFL) could alone get us 2-3 more net wins.

 

You have a LOT more faith in this regime than I do.  There's no way we're picking outside Pick 16 or 17.  We're more likely than not destined for a draft pick somewhere between 10-15 again after this coming season.  It would actually serve us better to crap the bed, and pick inside the top 7, if we're truly going to suck next year.  We won't ever gain upward trajectory, picking outside of the Top 10, if we're not a playoff team, or competing for a SB.  We're essentially stuck in perpetual purgatory at the current moment.  Rivera led teams not QB'd by Cam Newton have high floors, and VERY LOW ceilings.  We're never going to win less than 6 games, and we're never going to win more than 9, as long as he's the HC.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Darth Tater said:

I don't think Ron did a crap job this off season. I actually think that this was his best. I think the problem is how we F'd up the first 3. The only good thing we had (oline) was ignored and actually a bit attacked. You can forgive him some for missing on a QB in 2020 (can make the argument that a former #1 needed a chance and Young was DROY), 2021 (his plan didn't include an exploding thigh and the guy he really wanted was not coming here) and 2023 (tell me, what else he should have done? Lamar was the only guy who anybody talked about that would have improved our QB room long-term and he wasn't truly available). 2022 Wentz was a real bad F'up. If anything, my problem is that the worst outcome for us is probably a 12-13 rounder and I think its very likely we end up with one in the late teens early 20s. That could be a bad outcome given that if we improve our starting field position to just average and become just average in TOs (while still keeping a top 5 defense in terms of yards allowed and the best 3rd down defense in the NFL) could alone get us 2-3 more net wins.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree.  I am somewhat of a process driven guy and i'll forgive mistakes if the process makes sense.  Simply because personnel is a crap shoot --both the draft and FA, you win some and you lose some.  But if I get what they are trying to do as long as most of their moves work, I'll give a lot of slack. The process made sense to me in the first three years.  The process made no sense to me this year unless Ron's goal was to take one for the team by setting them up for a top ten draft pick and set up his successor for success. 

 

Year 1:  Riding with Haskins (the owner's pet QB), drafting Chase Young.  In retrospect were the wrong moves.  But I get why he did it.  Overall the draft was decent.  And they did a very nice job in FA.

 

Year 2.  Fitz made sense -- best FA QB available.  They swung and missed at Stafford  They got unlucky that Fitz got hurt.     Good draft.  So so to poor FA crop.

 

Year 3.  Swung and missed at Russell Wilson.  Wanted Carr but he wasn't made available.  Got Wentz.  They got ripped off big time in the deal but I get the method to the madness of betting on a QB who was still sub 30 with high upside -- boom-bust.  He busted.  Good draft.  They did nada in FA.

 

OK after that off season, I among some others including @Koolblue13 who were optimistic on this roster bought the rhetoric that Ron was upset that the O line regressed and it in turn derailed that season.   But all hands are on deck to fix it.  Lets do the QB spot differently and ride with Howell and as Ron said to help a young QB you need to surround him with a strong supporting cast.

 

Ron also seemed very sensitive to the idea in various interviews that the fans aren't coming to games and he wanted to earn their trust to come back. 

 

For me it all felt great.  Those 3 years are set for the kill for year 4.   Ron will focus on the offense and helping Sam be successful.  And also help Bieiniemy in year 1 to be successful from the start.  Felt like it was no brainer territory.  And I was so convinced that Ron would follow up on his rhetoric that I defended him to his haters on this board in advance that he's got this all handled and they should chill. 

 

But in my book my faith was misplaced.   Ron had more of a defense side of the ball focused draft.    He did very little in FA.   Some who cover the team don't expect either O lineman they took in the draft to contribute this season -- heck Ron even implied the same with one of those two players.   

 

RT slightly improved, depth weaker IMO on O line.  That's Ron's version of all hands on deck to fix what sunk them last season?  And I can forgive that a little if Ron decided not to go full out at O line because he wanted to throw a bone to the new ownership and get a player or two or make a move that would juice the fans a little considering Ron didn't do much of that since he's been here. 

 

Not that I personally care about juicing up the fan base.  But at least I can understand fixing O line might come off boring so I'd sort of get it if Ron drafted or signed some offensive weapon that would sell jerseys and create some buzz for a team that's arguably one of the most boring in the NFL -- I wouldn't like that approach as to making a move like that but I understand it.  But he did neither thing IMO.  Granted he still could.  And who knows just because I among plenty of others don't think he came close to fixing that O line -- doesn't mean its so -- will see.  But right now, I hate his off season.  I didn't hate the previous ones.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

In retrospect the biggest mistake was not taking Tua or Herbert(or I guess even Hurts) at #2 overall in 2020. Everything else after that is a domino effect.

 

I'm not killin him for it because hindsight is 20/20, but just saying. If we took one of those guys we'd be in a Super Bowl window right now. That was our shot and we blew it.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Warhead36

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

In retrospect the biggest mistake was not taking Tua or Herbert(or I guess even Hurts) at #2 overall in 2020. Everything else after that is a domino effect.

 

I'm not killin him for it because hindsight is 20/20, but just saying. If we took one of those guys we'd be in a Super Bowl window right now. That was our shot and we blew it.

 

No doubt.  I get why they didn't do it.  Many say life is all about timing.  If Keim is right, Hurney loved Herbert but he alas was in Carolina at the time.  So in turn, if he were here he might have pushed for them to make that move.

 

Rivera once addressed this if I recall on Sheehan's show defending not going for Herbert in part because there wasn't league consensus on him.  While i can forgive riding with Haskins considering the office politics at the time -- I hated that explanation from Rivera. 

 

Its their job to ferret out players -- doesn't matter if there is league wide consensus on said player.   The way I took it is Rvera saying he'd have drafted Herbert if he was a no brainer type billed prospect but since he wasn't they deserve a pass.  Maybe he just said that because as to Haskins -- he couldn't reference that without throwing Dan under the bus.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

In retrospect the biggest mistake was not taking Tua or Herbert(or I guess even Hurts) at #2 overall in 2020. Everything else after that is a domino effect.

 

I'm not killin him for it because hindsight is 20/20, but just saying. If we took one of those guys we'd be in a Super Bowl window right now. That was our shot and we blew it.

Short and sweet, yes.

But in his defense, the owner shouldn't have stick his nose in the prior draft with Haskins, then forcing him on the new coach as he did the one he fired. 

We shouldn't have taken chase in 2020 whether we took one of your QB list or Love (he says with a smirk) or if we loaded up the bare cupboards with selections gained with a trade back. 

[DWinzit]

Another reason to have a decent QB3

 

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the league approved a bylaw that would allow a third QB to be active on game day without burning a roster spot.

There are a few things to note with this rule -- the first being the quarterback must be on the 53-man roster and not on the practice squad. The rule allows for a team to have a third emergency quarterback available, even if they aren't listed as active at the start of the game. Secondly, the third quarterback is only available in the event of an injury to the two active quarterbacks. If a starting quarterback is benched, he cannot be benched in favor of the emergency quarterback. The disaster the 49ers experienced at quarterback in last year's NFC Championship Game helped push this rule into existence, which should prevent a non-quarterback being called on in the most dire of circumstances.

SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/sports/nfl/football

[Skinsinparadise]

This sort of plays into the discussion.  I disagree that this crew hasn't had big ideas.  They've taken some swings.    But agree with the spirit of the point which is this isn't an aggressive-seize the day type of FO.  

 

Bringing this on topic.  I do think the one thing that could save them is Sam Howell.   If they got it right with him, I'd say all the rest is forgiven.  Will see.

 

https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/article/goal-line-stand/rotopats-2023-nfl-gm-rankings

 

ROTOPAT'S 2023 NFL GM RANKINGS

26. Ron Rivera/Martin Mayhew, Commanders 

One reason this front office's big ideas haven't worked? They haven't had any. Tampering — allegedly — with Andrew Luck is as creative as it has gotten in Washington during Ron Rivera's reign as football czar. To make matters worse, the can't-miss defender missed. Chase Young had the looks of the next great pass rusher until tearing his ACL. Now he's appeared in just 11 games in two seasons and had his fifth-year team option declined. That's a hardship but not enough to explain Rivera's squad being stuck in the seven-win zone. Rivera has done a reasonably good job populating the defensive side of the ball, while the offense admittedly has playmakers. There just isn't the high-end talent to put the operation over the top. With no quarterback and a new owner coming for 2023, Rivera is going to have to revisit the 12-13 win heights of his best Cam Newton years to have any shot at retaining his job for 2024.   

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Listened to Mike Martz on 106.7 elaborate some on his segment on Howell.

 

Fan of Howell.  He likes especially how tough he is.  He likes his ability to make pff platform throws.  the wildcard with him as is with any young QB is read-react -- can he process quickly which is a needed attribute for any QB to be successful.  He thinks his footwork looked much better in the Dallas game versus how he played in North Carolina.  He was impressed with the strides made on that front and thinks this team did a nice job (citing Zampese) working with him on that. 

 

He's a big fan of Bieiniemy.  Thinks its the perfct marriage.

[KDawg]

So… is Andrew Luck interested?

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listened to Mike Martz on 106.7 elaborate some on his segment on Howell.

I watched that video breakdown segment with Martz. As one of Howell’s more vocal supporters, I don’t know how you can watch that and not be excited about watching Howell play this season. 
 

To my eye, it’s obvious that Howell is a starter in this league and can play up here. I felt the same way after watching Cousins play one game. Some guys look the part. 
 

How good will he be? Who knows. I think EB will call a game to help him minimize mistakes and get the ball to TMac/Dotson/Samuels on slants and crossing routes. We’ll be YAC heavy with some deep shots tossed in.

 

I think the attitude around this place is gonna change quickly when we start putting legit scores on the board and get more aggressive on defense. 

 

 

[zCommander]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I watched that video breakdown segment with Martz. As one of Howell’s more vocal supporters, I don’t know how you can watch that and not be excited about watching Howell play this season. 
 

To my eye, it’s obvious that Howell is a starter in this league and can play up here. I felt the same way after watching Cousins play one game. Some guys look the part. 
 

How good will he be? Who knows. I think EB will call a game to help him minimize mistakes and get the ball to TMac/Dotson/Samuels on slants and crossing routes. We’ll be YAC heavy with some deep shots tossed in.

 

I think the attitude around this place is gonna change quickly when we start putting legit scores on the board and get more aggressive on defense. 

 

 

 

 

@MartinC said it well.  Actually so did Martz on his 106.7 appearance.  The wildcard for any young Qb is how quick can they process things?   And you don't really know until you see it play out.    Arians, longish (but great book) on QBs spells it out too -- he's encountered plenty of young QBs with talent.  And they all can see the field and process things if you give them time.  But during games you don't have that time -- so they need to read and react in a split second or 3.  Some young QBs have that ability and some don't and you don't know until that's tested.

 

Whether it's to your eye, my eye, or anyone else, I don't think we know.  Martz as high as he is on his talent said he doesn't know either as far as being definitive that he's the dude. 

 

However, I am jazzed about seeing how it plays out for Howell.  Not to the extent where I am brimming with optimism that we got our guy.  But I am feeling good about giving a young QB with some talent a chance.  The optimism for me will come as the script plays out and hopefully plays well.

 

As for Kirk he did look good in his first game.  26 for 37 for 329 yards and did it with the playoffs at stake.  Howell didn't put up nearly those numbers in his debut but also looked mostly sharp I agree.  It took Kirk about 3 years though to establish himself after that -- had some shaky starts.  It wasn't the most popular thing even back in 2015 to have Kirk's back that season but I did after he put a series of good games together.  I'll definitely do the same if Howell strings some good games together.  Fingers crossed.

 

As for the attitude changing.  Yeah agree if they start winning this season, optimism will reign.  I am typically more optimistic than I should be about the season and that hasn't played out well for me.   This season, I need to be sold.  What's driving your optimism about the season?  I am trying to sell myself but having a hard time so interested in those who are high on what's coming.