The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Est.1974]

I’m not sure it matters now, it’s all short term PR. New owners, new FO, new coaching staff, new QB.

 

Only caveat, Howell is total lights out. Long shots, right?

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I’m not sure it matters now, it’s all short term PR. New owners, new FO, new coaching staff, new QB.

 

Only caveat, Howell is total lights out. Long shots, right?

It matters because of draft position. 

[skinny21]

32 minutes ago, KDawg said:

It matters because of draft position. 

Curious what you mean - Brisset is too much of a challenger to Howell and if he subsequently starts, he leads us to mid range draft pick?  Or am I way off base…

[KDawg]

22 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Curious what you mean - Brisset is too much of a challenger to Howell and if he subsequently starts, he leads us to mid range draft pick?  Or am I way off base…

Meaning for either guy. Howell has upside though. Brissett doesn’t. So if Howell mids us there is potential. If Brissett does we’re looking at more mid.

[Est.1974]

11 hours ago, KDawg said:

It matters because of draft position. 

The one negative I had on the Brissett move at the time was that it almost guaranteed a middle of the road outcome.

 

We really should have gone all in on Howell, and if that ultimately gave us 2-15 then the 2024 draft was set nicely for us. Brissett as the fall back drags us nearer 7/8 win territory.

 

Or Howell could be very good. Time will tell.

[DWinzit]

3 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

The one negative I had on the Brissett move at the time was that it almost guaranteed a middle of the road outcome.

 

We really should have gone all in on Howell, and if that ultimately gave us 2-15 then the 2024 draft was set nicely for us. Brissett as the fall back drags us nearer 7/8 win territory.

 

Or Howell could be very good. Time will tell.

Well, we know they like Howell and anticipate him being given every chance. With most of the other options out there this year, many were worse or more fragile than Brissett. I am much more confident with a Howell/Brissett combo...better than Wentz! We have experienced a hell of a lot of injuries to the OL and QB position over the past few years so I'm happy with two that seem very competent. I only wish they had found a QB3 late in the draft that had the potential stick in that slot. One that could perhaps run wild cat or contribute on ST's

[RandyHolt]

They like Howell enough... does EB though. I remember reading commander brass was looking to trade up to 8 to nab Richardson and personally doubt the reports of the info coming from other teams was fabricated since there is no reason for them to lie after the fact.  Couple that with RR not wanting to start Howell for our meaningless game 17 makes me question how much RR and EB truly like him. Posters here may be sold but think they may have high expectations on a 5th rounder. I hope he solves our decades long search for a QB but posters know its not a stretch to think a new OC wants to pick his QB.

Edited May 22, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Koolblue13]

42 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

They like Howell enough... does EB though. I remember reading commander brass was looking to trade up to 8 to nab Richardson and personally doubt the reports of the info coming from other teams was fabricated since there is no reason for them to lie after the fact.  Couple that with RR not wanting to start Howell for our meaningless game 17 makes me question how much RR and EB truly like him. Posters here may be sold but think they may have high expectations on a 5th rounder. I hope he solves our decades long search for a QB but posters know its not a stretch to think a new OC wants pick his QB.

I agree with this. They brought in a decent QB, who I'm going to think assumes he has a chance to start at some point this season. We looked at AR and Hooker as well.

 

Hopefully passing on Levis and Hooker don't bite us. 

[goskins10]

On 5/15/2023 at 9:37 PM, The Rook said:

 

Thinking back to the start of Kurt's final year on rookie contract, seems like he wanted $14M(?) per year average for extension.  Management wanted him to prove it in 2015 season and he did.  Management balked at the upgraded price per year ($17M? $19M) and franchised him and the debacle was on.

 

What I am remembering was the discussion on ES - seems like there were three camps:

Let Him Go - about 1 in 4

Sign Him Early - maybe 1 in 4

Make Him Prove It - and this was easily the most popular (and worst) option

 

Observations are:

1. Firm decisions are better than wishy-washy

2. We aren't that smart either 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

 

 

 

You are missing some nuiance in there on #2. Many who were in the prove it camp said you have to be willing to pay him if proves it. Bruce wanted to low ball his ass even after he had what at worst was a reasonbly decent season. He needed to pay the man and stop being so cheap. He wanted Kirk to sign the contract he was willing to sign before he proved it basically. But kirk and his agent reset based on the tag numbers. That's on Bruce, not those who were OK with a show me it's for 16 games position.

 

I was in this camp. Either pay him what he wants now - which was not that much, OR if you say show me and he shows you, pay the man. It's going to be painful short term but you can lock him up for several years and the CAP will come back to you. 

 

If they knew they were not going to pay him then just trade him then. Bruce made every wrong decision at all the wrong times with Kirk. And Kirk and his agent made him pay for every mistake. I am not fan of Kikr's for other reasons but can;t blame him for taking advantage of an incompetent boob like Bruce. 

 

Back to current day - unless Howell absolutely ****s the bed, he has to be your day 1 starter. Starting Brissett does nothing for anyone but him unless Howell is a complete mess or there is an injury. There is nothing to suggest that he will be that bad. Start Howell and lets see how far he can take you. 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by goskins10

[Califan007 The Constipated]

On 5/14/2023 at 5:41 PM, mistertim said:

 

I'd say the Browns and the Jets have had almost as hard a time with QB.

 

Colts may be close to all three teams...

 

 

4 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

You are missing some nuiance in there on #2. Many who were in the prove it camp said you have to be willing to pay him if proves it. Bruce wanted to low ball his ass even after he had what at worst was a reasonbly decent season. He needed to pay the man and stop being so cheap. He wanted Kirk to sign the contract he was willing to sign before he proved it basically. But kirk and his agent reset based on the tag numbers. That's on Bruce, not those who were OK with a show me it's for 16 games position.

 

I was in this camp. Either pay him what he wants now - which was not that much, OR if you say show me and he shows you, pay the man. It's going to be painful short term but you can lock him up for several years and the CAP will come back to you. 

 

If they knew they were not going to pay him then just trade him then. Bruce made every wrong decision at all the wrong times with Kirk. And Kirk and his agent made him pay for every mistake. I am not fan of Kikr's for other reasons but can;t blame him for taking advantage of an incompetent boob like Bruce.

 

 

If this is about Kirk, I've said before that he let it be known after he left that the ONLY way he was gonna sign with us is if we gave him a fully-guaranteed contract, which had never been done before. So I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do it for Kirk in 2016-2017. Not sure if he told Bruce and Dan that, but Kirk's agent told him that. Kirk actually wanted to negotiate at one point in 2017 but his agent said "Nope"...

Edited May 20, 2023 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Warhead36]

I think one of the conditions of EB being hired was his willingness to work with Howell. He doesn't have to be in love with the kid but I think he has to have liked enough about him to take the job.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I think one of the conditions of EB being hired was his willingness to work with Howell. He doesn't have to be in love with the kid but I think he has to have liked enough about him to take the job.

I’m not sure it was a condition, but I think it was “this is who we’ve got, take it or leave it.”

 

He took it, so here we are.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

If this is about Kirk, I've said before that he let it be known after he left that the ONLY way he was gonna sign with us is if we gave him a fully-guaranteed contract, which had never been done before. So I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do it for Kirk in 2016-2017. Not sure if he told Bruce and Dan that, but Kirk's agent told him that. Kirk actually wanted to negotiate at one point in 2017 but his agent said "Nope"...

Bruce and co should have given Kirk a fully guaranteed 3 year $60m contract in the 2016 off season.  They had no plan except for him for 2016 and 2017.  That would have covered 3 years at the 2016 salary cap number.  
 

That would have actually been lower risk than franchise tagging him, and then having to pay him $20m for the 2016 season and open negotiations for 2017 with the base of $24m/season.

 

I DO blame them for not doing that because it showed unbelievable lack of foresight.  They were going to give him $44m guaranteed anyway.  Give him 3 years at $20, he’d have taken it.  
 

Once they were in the franchise tag game, it was over.  

13 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Or Howell could be very good. Time will tell.

If the team starts Howell and he looks ok but they lose early, Ron will be fired and they will probably stick with Howell throughout the season.  And then it’s a different group looking at 2024.

 

I think the odds of this happening are… 50/50.

 

Unless Brissett plays right away I don’t think he plays at all.

[method man]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:13 PM, KDawg said:

If Brissett winds up starting… we misplayed QB. Again.

 

And that’s not a knock on him. But if Sam ain’t it, we kicked the can down the road again, to a likely mid first round pick.

 

There is an argument that the new regime would want their own guy anyways, and I’ll buy that argument.

 

I don’t think we misplayed and I think Howell starts. But that’s not a good scenario for this team.

 

Not necessarily. They did what they could this offseason within the constraints. If the goal were a proven veteran, they very likely did not have the authority to give Lamar a fully guaranteed contract and they weren't going to get Carr or Jimmy G. In the draft, they were too far back to move up for Young or Stroud. Jacoby was the best affordable option available in FA and they got that guy. 

 

I see your point potentially being in the same QB hell next year with a mid first. However, with new ownership and a new regime in place, perhaps they go do something ballsy like trade 3 1sts to move up to take Maye or trade for a veteran who may come available

 

[FootballZombie]

21 minutes ago, method man said:

I see your point potentially being in the same QB hell next year with a mid first. However, with new ownership and a new regime in place, perhaps they go do something ballsy like trade 3 1sts to move up to take Maye or trade for a veteran who may come available

 

 

Even if we force-feed Howell and he absolutely bombs I don't think the team as a whole would be bad enough to secure a draft pick that would put you in position to get out of QB purgatory. The rest of the roster would carry us to a middling record regardless of QB play, just like we saw last year.

 

From a "get your QB from the draft" standpoint, I'm not sure there was anything we could have done to help make that pathway feasible, and the only way it happens is mass injury related, which we don't control.

 

Regardless of what we did in the offseason this year, I feel a ballsy move would be required next year to get a draft QB.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Bruce and co should have given Kirk a fully guaranteed 3 year $60m contract in the 2016 off season.  They had no plan except for him for 2016 and 2017.  That would have covered 3 years at the 2016 salary cap number.  
 

That would have actually been lower risk than franchise tagging him, and then having to pay him $20m for the 2016 season and open negotiations for 2017 with the base of $24m/season.

 

I DO blame them for not doing that because it showed unbelievable lack of foresight.  They were going to give him $44m guaranteed anyway.  Give him 3 years at $20, he’d have taken it.  
 

Once they were in the franchise tag game, it was over.  

 

 

I won't blame ANY front office not giving Kirk a fully-guaranteed contract after 1 year of starting. Especially after seeing how he flamed out the year before after starting off hot. Even Scot McCloughan thought giving him a big contract like what you're suggesting was a mistake at the time. I get how someone like Bruce--who used to be a player agent--would think the normal back and forth negotiation would be the way both sides end up going. If I blame him for anything Kirk-related I blame him for not trading him in 2017, but not for not giving him a fully guaranteed contract, And for the life of me I can't figure out how any GM or team president was supposed to somehow know in 2016 that fully-guaranteed contracts were just a few years away so might as well get started on them now. And you know a bunch of other teams and GMs would have been furious for us setting that precedent--possibly damaging whatever good relationships we still had with other franchises--not to mention the media and fans who would have criticized the team at the time for yet again thinking throwing money at players is the way to go lol...

 

I still think the only reason the Vikings went ahead and did a fully guaranteed contract was not because they were forward-thinking, but because they truly thought they'd be Super Bowl bound with the upgrade at QB they felt Kirk offered them. I think they've won 1 playoff game with him and his contract instead, and went through 3 different OCs. Would they really have been THAT much worse off if they told Kirk "Nah, that's ok. You go to the Jets instead"?

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Darth Tater]

44 minutes ago, method man said:

 

Not necessarily. They did what they could this offseason within the constraints. If the goal were a proven veteran, they very likely did not have the authority to give Lamar a fully guaranteed contract and they weren't going to get Carr or Jimmy G. In the draft, they were too far back to move up for Young or Stroud. Jacoby was the best affordable option available in FA and they got that guy. 

 

I see your point potentially being in the same QB hell next year with a mid first. However, with new ownership and a new regime in place, perhaps they go do something ballsy like trade 3 1sts to move up to take Maye or trade for a veteran who may come available

 

Lamar was the only one I'd have even given consideration if not for the fact that he was NEVER going to leave Baltimore in the first place, especially with anything close to the value put on him by Baltimore. We'd have really had to overpay.

[zCommander]

12 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 Posters here may be sold but think they may have high expectations on a 5th rounder....

 

 I hope he solves our decades long search for a QB but posters know its not a stretch to think a new OC wants pick his QB.

 

If Ron had selected him in the 2nd round would that have been better for us then? Would that have improved his abilities based on what round he was picked in?

 

He is still better than some that were selected before him and then got the benefit/advantage of learning for a whole year instead of starting last year and possibly failing instead. The positive here is that if he does fail then the compensation is not that much and an easy write off.

 

It would be nice to have a franchise QB and if Howell can become that then EB doesn't need to find his guy next year. 

[KDawg]

Yes. If he was a second rounder people would be beyond excited. But because they don’t follow college, they look at all fifth rounders equally. That’s not a knock. That’s just the way they see it. And, to be quite frank, they generally would be correct to do just that.

 

Howell is different. How different? We’ll see. But for the most part the whole, “he’s a fifth rounder, what are you expecting?” Is a really good metric for people because it generally pans out. So going out on a limb is difficult and risky. So why do it?

 

But to continue on that point: if Howell was a first rounder, people would be posting “bust” right now alongside all of the hype because that first round QB didn’t get on the field until week 18, despite how good he did.

 

So being a fifth rounder has now given him a bit of latitude, too, because people inevitably say, “he’s a fifth rounder, lower your expectations” instead of, “this guy was drafted in the first and can’t see the field? What a scrub.”

 

It’s a really interesting thing to watch. The same player, taken in two different draft slots, would be viewed entirely differently AS A PLAYER. (I want to clarify this. Where a player is drafted doesn’t change them as a player. They are who they are. Strategy criticism may be warranted, but the player is the player and shouldn’t be defined by a team’s strategy).

 

I can’t prove that theory because no player will ever be selected in two different spots, but we’ve seen enough examples where this very likely holds weight. 
 

I think Howell is going to surprise a lot of these “he’s a fifth rounder” people. But they can then fall back on, “well, the odds weren’t in his favor but I’m glad we have him!” and be all set. 
 

It’s much more difficult to say, “ya, I think this dude is good and is going to surprise” because if he turns around and stinks the folks sitting on the fence will say, “See? He’s a fifth rounder for a reason.”

Edited May 21, 2023 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

At this point, any time someone from our franchise says we had him rated *insert round two plus rounds higher* on our board, I just laugh.

 

Sure Howell was rated as one of the top QBs and was probably a 1rst rounder the year before, but guys like Rattler were rated as 1rst rounders at one point, too.

 

There was a huge difference between Maye and Howell, with the same supporting cast. 

 

I really like Howell and think he'll be exciting at worst, but the criticism here and around the league is beyond fair.

 

And he is, in fact, a 5th round QB with one start.

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

At this point, any time someone from our franchise says we had him rated *insert round two plus rounds higher* on our board, I just laugh.

 

Sure Howell was rated as one of the top QBs and was probably a 1rst rounder the year before, but guys like Rattler were rated as 1rst rounders at one point, too.

 

There was a huge difference between Maye and Howell, with the same supporting cast. 

 

I really like Howell and think he'll be exciting at worst, but the criticism here and around the league is beyond fair.

 

And he is, in fact, a 5th round QB with one start.

This is quite the flip from you. But most of this isn’t wrong. 

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This is quite the flip from you. But most of this isn’t wrong. 

Yeah, that draft and our failure to upgrade the Oline just killed my enthusiasm. I'm also not high on EB or our TE room.

 

I think our offense will be much improved no doubt, but I'm just not high on this team right now. I think it'll be the last mediocre team we have for a while and that we're going to rebuild and it's going to be painful, too.

[KDawg]

13 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, that draft and our failure to upgrade the Oline just killed my enthusiasm. I'm also not high on EB or our TE room.

 

I think our offense will be much improved no doubt, but I'm just not high on this team right now. I think it'll be the last mediocre team we have for a while and that we're going to rebuild and it's going to be painful, too.

I am high on EB and Howell. Our TEs are very middle of the road as a group, high potential but also low floor. 
 

Our OL is still my big concern. 
 

We need to see Howell this year because if we don’t have a great year we need a QB next year. If Howell plays really well, even if not great record wise, we can put the resources elsewhere.

 

If Brissett wins the job it basically means the Howell potential is gone and we’re stuck in mid purgatory.

 

So, we’ll see.

Edited May 21, 2023 by KDawg

[DWinzit]

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

At this point, any time someone from our franchise says we had him rated *insert round two plus rounds higher* on our board, I just laugh.

 

Sure Howell was rated as one of the top QBs and was probably a 1rst rounder the year before, but guys like Rattler were rated as 1rst rounders at one point, too.

 

There was a huge difference between Maye and Howell, with the same supporting cast. 

 

I really like Howell and think he'll be exciting at worst, but the criticism here and around the league is beyond fair.

 

And he is, in fact, a 5th round QB with one start.

Never really thought of a Maye/Howell comparison

 

Howell had 3 successful college seasons even though he lost most of his weapons to the NFL in his last season and had OL injuries.

 

They do have tons of similar qualities - arm strength, mobility, physical, good accuracy

 

They also have similar negatives of some questionable decisions and not accurate on the move.

 

The major difference might be 6'1" to 6'4". 

 

Bet a 6'4" Howell would have been snapped up sooner than the 5th by teams.

 

Regardless, you are correct, Howell is a 5th rounder which is great for Washington. Even if they decide to go another way next year with a new QB, at worst he will be a good 2nd stringer.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Brisselt getting us to the mid round of next years draft if he plays, I wonder.  He had a good run game and one of the best O lines in the league last year. 

 

I liked the signing.  IMO Brissett was the best veteran FA in that grouping.    But having a crap O line can pull down any offense.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2022-nfl-offensive-line-rankings

 

6. CLEVELAND BROWNS (UP 1)

Week 18 Starters:

LT Jedrick Wills Jr.
LG Joel Bitonio
C Ethan Pocic
RG Wyatt Teller
RT James Hudson

• James Hudson, going up against T.J. Watt in Week 18, allowed four pressures, one of which was a sack.
• Cleveland’s line finished the year ranked sixth as a run-blocking unit and slipped from its best play as the season went on.

Best Player: Joel Bitonio

• Joel Bitonio finished the season named as a PFF All-Pro at left guard. He allowed one sack all season and earned an 84.5 PFF run-blocking grade.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, that draft and our failure to upgrade the Oline just killed my enthusiasm. I'm also not high on EB or our TE room.

 

I think our offense will be much improved no doubt, but I'm just not high on this team right now. I think it'll be the last mediocre team we have for a while and that we're going to rebuild and it's going to be painful, too.

 

 

I am in the same place except I am good with EB.  The irony is I actually like a bunch of the picks they made.  But I hate the sum of its parts in the context of FA and also in the context of new ownership coming.

 

I am a bit shocked by it.  I have gone from one of Ron's more enthusiastic defenders -- never loved Ron's work but I liked it and more on point I like him and I still like him as a dude.   

 

But now, I am really pissy about Ron.   to me its sort of like a teenager going to meet his girlfriends parents for the first time and the parents heard mixed things about them.  And instead of dressing to the nines and being on their best behavior -- the teeanger goes to it looking disheveled, comes off a bit rude and blows up that event.  

 

I talked about this on another thread  but part of me wonders if it got to him -- the Russini report about she talked to a prospective ownership group who was talking to Sean Payton.   It's clear as heck that that was likely Harris.    

Edited May 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise