The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

Thank ****ing christ we didn't make that trade.

[Conn]

13 hours ago, wit33 said:

**Disclaimer, not at all worked up about this just some middle of the Week discussion. Go Washington! 

Same. Good discussion as usual, just coming from different places is all.  

 

13 hours ago, wit33 said:

Not necessarily implying Washington being atop the list of spending from a cap standpoint is the end all be all, but it’s real data. The “all in” seems drenched with subjectivity. 

It’s “real”, but it means nothing without parsing it and layering opinions over it which is where the subjectivity comes into it. It can’t be avoided. Saying “here’s a list showing that these resources were used” says nothing about how the resources were used. 
 

I’ll give you a concrete example—and I swear I’m not trying to steer this conversation into the pit of arguing specific transactions, my point is more of a macro point, but this illustrates it nicely—this offseason we spent multiple mid/late round draft picks to move up in the draft to take an obvious depth piece (or bust) in KJ Henry in the 5th round that only made the squad because he was a draft pick. A puzzling pick at the time who surprised no one with his poor camp/preseason performance. The Eagles, a premier organization in terms of using their resources efficiently, traded their 5th round pick for a high-upside home run hitter RB who just had a bellcow 28/175/1 game off the bench on TNF. On a rookie contract. Maybe Swift will succumb to his injury concerns but he took over that game, that’s the risk/reward type of use of a 5th round pick that can change seasons and help reduce the weight on a QB’s shoulders. Just as an example, again. Not trying to form the crux of my argument over the use of a 5th round pick or a few cap dollars here or there. It’s big picture. It’s organizational philosophy and being conservative/hopeful vs aggressive/intentional. 

 

Every team gets the same resources to spend. That’s the beauty of the parity in this league. HOW you use those resources really, really matters. That’s my argument. Simply having spent the resources is not enough. 

 

13 hours ago, wit33 said:

No issues if people disagree wrong players were acquired or money should’ve been spent elsewhere, it’s the conclusion Rivera is wrong and hasn’t gone “all in” that annoys me. 
 

I imagine if you ask Rivera he’d share he’s all in with the core players on roster and trusts them to make the next leap. Washington’s top 10 ten players on roster account for more than 50% of this years cap.
 

He’s all in with these guys:

 

 

 

 

Here you’ve stumbled on one of the problems. Huge, top-10 on the roster cap charge for a backup QB who will only see significant run if you’ve gambled poorly on Howell or if the season is over anyways instead of a similar or smaller cap hit for a player you actually want to see on the field helping your young potential franchise QB develop. Similar fruitless cap charge on a washed up veteran TE you were too afraid to cut because you didn’t leave yourself room to dip into one of the deepest TE classes of all time. Etc. These are the details I swore I wouldn’t get into again so I’ll stop—but these are not the moves of someone I would describe as having a firm grasp on how to preserve his own job—just as he’s stumbled into a young QB that could actually save it! And once again, I didn’t use the phrase “all-in” and agree it’s subjective.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Conn

[NewCliche21]

Thank god the team got saved by another team, again.

Remember when Snyder wanted Ochocinco for two firsts? In like 2009?

[Warhead36]

Not trading a measley 5th for a guy like Deandre Swift and letting him go to a division rival of all teams(that was already loaded)is a big time misfire, especially as Gibson continues to fumble and Robinson struggles to put up 4 YPC.

[Koolblue13]

34 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Not trading a measley 5th for a guy like Deandre Swift and letting him go to a division rival of all teams(that was already loaded)is a big time misfire, especially as Gibson continues to fumble and Robinson struggles to put up 4 YPC.

Swift orcistrated that trade, because he's from Philly.

[-9-]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Thank ****ing christ we didn't make that trade.

 

 

[Warhead36]

17 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Swift orcistrated that trade, because he's from Philly.

Then we could have offered Detroit more like a 4th and at least driven up the price a bit.

 

But this FO just doesn't operate with that kind of creativity or vision. Its a bunch of dinosaurs running the team like its a mom and pop.

 

Can't wait till Harris cleans em out.

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Then we could have offered Detroit more like a 4th and at least driven up the price a bit.

 

But this FO just doesn't operate with that kind of creativity or vision. Its a bunch of dinosaurs running the team like its a mom and pop.

 

Can't wait till Harris cleans em out.

100% with you on that. I'm excited for the future.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

The fans angry at Rivera point to not making a win now move for why he should be fired. But that win now move would also improve the odds of Rivera staying employed. Catch 22 here.

 

Eagles have a 1 to maybe 2 year prime Super Bowl window. Those teams do win now moves like trading for a RB in a contract year. It's likely a 1 year rental that cost them a 4th and a 7th.

[Koolblue13]

12 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

The fans angry at Rivera point to not making a win now move for why he should be fired. But that win now move would also improve the odds of Rivera staying employed. Catch 22 here.

 

Eagles have a 1 to maybe 2 year prime Super Bowl window. Those teams do win now moves like trading for a RB in a contract year. It's likely a 1 year rental that cost them a 4th and a 7th.

We're not talking about trading 2 firsts for Minkah Fitpatrick here. A day three pick for a very good RB and an UFA OT.

 

and NOTHING is saving Rons job.

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We're not talking about trading 2 firsts for Minkah Fitpatrick here. A day three pick for a very good RB and an UFA OT.

 

and NOTHING is saving Rons job.

Yeah for real. And it was at a position where we're in need of an infusion of talent. 

[samy316]

14 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

The fans angry at Rivera point to not making a win now move for why he should be fired. But that win now move would also improve the odds of Rivera staying employed. Catch 22 here.

 

Eagles have a 1 to maybe 2 year prime Super Bowl window. Those teams do win now moves like trading for a RB in a contract year. It's likely a 1 year rental that cost them a 4th and a 7th.

 

We don't care, as long as the team wins.  If Rivera is able to get this team to 10+ wins and the playoffs, by all means keep him around.  What people are pissed at Ron about (and justifiably so), is his lack of aggressive moves in the offseason.  If you know that you need to improve the O-Line, and you sit on your hands and do essentially nothing, then you're not helping the team get better.  Look at the Eagles & their front office.  They're one of the more aggressive FO's in the league, and it pays off for them in dividends, because they have a mindset of improving any area of the team that needs upgrading.  They don't sit on their hands like this FO, and wait for deals to come to them.  Look at our RB situation now.  If you're telling me you could have a top tier running back for only the cost of a 4th rounder, you wouldn't be running to the phone to get a deal done?  Ron's lack of aggression and his misguided mindset when it comes to value, will be his ultimate undoing here in Washington.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah for real. And it was at a position where we're in need of an infusion of talent. 

Swift >>> Gibson

Collins >>> Whylie

 

Clear upgrades. They say we're in win now mode, but I don't see it. 

 

Eagles might have lost their safety for the year, I bet Howie is already on the phone with Gannon about Baker.

[Conn]

I’ve been looking for this post to copy and paste here on ES for ages but couldn’t hunt it down—then it was randomly retweeted onto my timeline. So here it is:

 

[edit: I’ll post a screenshot of the image he imbedded in the tweet so that you don’t have to click through if you don’t want to]

 

 

 

 Adam Harstad mainly applies his work to fantasy football research but he is brilliant and a very rational analyst. I think his take here on the choices a QB makes between playmaking/INT/Sacks and the downstream effects that has on the whole offense are very on topic right now with Howell. In the end, regardless of the OL, he will choose which part of the three-legged stool he sacrifices, to use Adam Harstad’s metaphor. 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Conn

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Conn said:

I’ve been looking for this post to copy and paste here on ES for ages but couldn’t hunt it down—then it was randomly retweeted onto my timeline. So here it is:

 

 Adam Harstad mainly applies his work to fantasy football research but he is brilliant and a very rational analyst. I think his take here on the choices a QB makes between playmaking/INT/Sacks and the downstream effects that has on the whole offense are very on topic right now with Howell. In the end, regardless of the OL, he will choose which part of the three-legged stool he sacrifices, to use Adam Harstad’s metaphor. 

 

Yeah, Howell has always taken sacks. He's going to try and make every play work. Sometimes it's a scramble or off script throw, sometimes it's a sack. 

 

As long as it isn't fumbles and complete floating turkey balls, I'm good with it.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I agree Gibson isn't much of anything, but Chris Rodriguez has some potential to be a good (not great) back.

 

If we had done that trade, what would everyone be saying this off-season?

 

"We needed OL and instead they traded for a RB? Don't they know OL makes the RB not the other way around? How dare they!" Rabble rabble rabble. "We could have drafted (insert some round 4 OL) instead of trading for a RB!"

 

I get complaints about Rivera not doing enough, I really do. But I think if we had traded for a RB in a contract year and our only OL pick was a 3rd round Center then this forum would have reacted even worse. Actual pitchforks and torches would have been purchased. I can already envision lots of replys of "he's mortgaging the future to save his job, how dare he!"

 

A lot of the complaints would be right,  but I think there'd be complaints regardless the scenario. There was a lot of complaining we didn't trade for Albert Okweugbunam, but hasn't he been a healthy scratch?

[Koolblue13]

11 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

I agree Gibson isn't much of anything, but Chris Rodriguez has some potential to be a good (not great) back.

 

If we had done that trade, what would everyone be saying this off-season?

 

"We needed OL and instead they traded for a RB? Don't they know OL makes the RB not the other way around? How dare they!" Rabble rabble rabble. "We could have drafted (insert some round 4 OL) instead of trading for a RB!"

 

I get complaints about Rivera not doing enough, I really do. But I think if we had traded for a RB in a contract year and our only OL pick was a 3rd round Center then this forum would have reacted even worse. Actual pitchforks and torches would have been purchased. I can already envision lots of replys of "he's mortgaging the future to save his job, how dare he!"

 

A lot of the complaints would be right,  but I think there'd be complaints regardless the scenario. There was a lot of complaining we didn't trade for Albert Okweugbunam, but hasn't he been a healthy scratch?

Yeah, I'd take Swift (RB) over Daniels (our 4th rounder that will probably never play and was taken because we target positions) in a heart beat and still be right as to criticism Ron for his passive approach to the Oline.

[Voice_of_Reason]

23 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sip.

 

Have you not noticed this?

Ok, but I think you have me confused with somebody who cared what Jay had to say about anything, but I didn't reply to any of it.  

 

23 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I appreciate you taking the time to read it all.  

 

I know you above all is dying to know exactly what Jay is thinking.

Actually, I read your first line something like "Heard Jay on Sheehan (or wherever)" and skipped the rest of the post.

 

But as I was scanning through, I kept seeing back and forth about Jay's comments.  I skipped all of them, except seemed to notice there was some disagreement about who Jay was talking about, Hurts vs. Haddock.  And while I'm pretty sure in Jay's mind, the two are basically interchangeable, I found it interesting the conversation went on as long as it did. Though I didn't read it.

 

But remember, I was the guy who was trying to start a movement to bring back Jay as OC.  Sadly, we had to settle for somebody with a football IQ of more than a gnat with a learning disability.  But here we are anyway.

 

23 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's settled.  I won. 

PFF had Wylie graded as the 4th highest offensive Commander's player. Just saying. 

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

The fans angry at Rivera point to not making a win now move for why he should be fired. But that win now move would also improve the odds of Rivera staying employed. Catch 22 here.

 

Eagles have a 1 to maybe 2 year prime Super Bowl window. Those teams do win now moves like trading for a RB in a contract year. It's likely a 1 year rental that cost them a 4th and a 7th.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Fans who are mad at Ron for not doing win-now moves would not be upset at Rivera's employment chances improving through successful win-now moves. He would be doing exactly what they want, pursuing the goal they want.

 

This offseason, the win-now and win-future move would have been to shore up the O-Line. Ron not doing that is why I and others are kind of done with him. Ron's job is on the line, he needs to prove that he can get good results from an unknown, young QB, and before the season even started, he hamstrung his own offense by choice. Ron had all of last year to read the writing on the wall that a new owner and new standards were coming. This is the year that Ron has to put on his best show. He has done a poor job of preparing for it.

Edited September 15, 2023 by NickyJ

[Skinsinparadise]

53 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

But as I was scanning through, I kept seeing back and forth about Jay's comments.  I skipped all of them, except seemed to notice there was some disagreement about who Jay was talking about, Hurts vs. Haddock.  And while I'm pretty sure in Jay's mind, the two are basically interchangeable, I found it interesting the conversation went on as long as it did. Though I didn't read it.

 

 

Jay likes to compare Howell for whatever reason to Heinicke.  He's done it multiple times.  I guess its the moxie?  in theory Heinicke could run but he doesn't run.  Howell has a strong arm and Heinicke has a noodle arm.  Howell more accurate by a good margin.

 

But Jay likes to do the Minshew-Heinicke thing with Howell.  And like I said he's not taking a shot, he associates the positive attributes to those players.  But I don't really get it outside of the moxie-size comparison.

 

Jay wasn't saying Howell reminds him of Hurts.  But that discussion got heated here so I'll leave it alone.  But he talked in response to a question from Standig about do you want to reign in mobile QBs referncing the hits Howell took, so Jay then talked about Hurts, Lamar. 

 

Though I agree its a complement that the mighty Jay Gruden considers Howell mobile.    Speaking of Jay he did the full gig with Grant Paulsen yesterday on 106.7.  So it was Jay the whole time.  He was entertaining.

 

53 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

PFF had Wylie graded as the 4th highest offensive Commander's player. Just saying. 

 

As I mentioned PFF doesn't hate Wylie score wise including last season.  Some of their anaylists don't think much though of Wylie the player in interviews.  But its one of those cases again where as I told you the PFF guys aren't slaves to their own scores.  . Another good example is they gave Stromberg good scores in college yet don't think much of the player.   Their anaylists like Payne but he doesn't score well.  So yeah there are some funky things with their scores.  But not everything is funky. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

The fans angry at Rivera point to not making a win now move for why he should be fired. But that win now move would also improve the odds of Rivera staying employed. Catch 22 here.

 

Eagles have a 1 to maybe 2 year prime Super Bowl window. Those teams do win now moves like trading for a RB in a contract year. It's likely a 1 year rental that cost them a 4th and a 7th.

 

The chicken and the egg I know for most of us this off season wasn't A and B below.   I think for some yes but I don't think most here.

 

A.  We want Ron gone

B.  The off season only confirms that, good riddance

 

It was at the start of this off season more like this...

 

A.  We want Ron to stay.

B.  Yes, he's a slow build guy but stay patient with him, watch him go.  He talked about the O line being the code red spot.  Heck the way he's talking he might even take an O lineman in every round in the first three rounds

C.  4th year is the go for the kill season -- how could he not after he himself said the third year was the win now season.  This is the off season Ron steps on the gas, just watch.

D.  New owner and his job is on the line -- again, watch Ron go to town because he has to.

 

 

So I know for at least me and @Koolblue13 who didn't only have Ron's back but we'd defend him on almost everything because we thought the dude was building to a cresendo this off season.  Even Keim referenced that point in the previous off season, he expects Ron to be really aggressive this off season.  We talked about it in different threads.  We talked about this off season last off season when we defended him then.

 

But it never happened.  So it made me and some others think Ron isn't building up to anything.  He just doesn't orient his off seasons to fixing multiple issues.  Nothing aggressive.  Hey we got a young QB, what can we do to make him successful?  IMO his answer was not much.  Lets run with this "meh" at best O line and hope for the best.  I really didn't expect it.  I know some others didn't expect that either.  And I was predisposed among others to back Ron -- versus looking for reasons to kick him. 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, Howell has always taken sacks. He's going to try and make every play work. Sometimes it's a scramble or off script throw, sometimes it's a sack. 

Sam is a smart kid. I think he’ll adjust when he realizes “you ain’t got Wake Forest bearing down on you…these guys can play” (one of my favorite Parcells quotes). 
 

I think his clock will speed up a bit and you’ll see him giving up on bad plays sooner. 
 

He looks like he belongs out there. Let’s hope he doesn’t get killed before we can truly evaluate him. 😆
 

I expect a sharper game from him this week. He looked off to me after that big hit. But the kid is fearless for sure. 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jay likes to compare Howell for whatever reason to Heinicke. 

FYI, I stopped reading after this sentence.  Sorry. I don't care.  As far as I'm concerned, he's not an "expert witness" and I don't honestly give a crap what his opinion is.  As far as I'm concerned, he hasn't earned the right to have an opinion.  I get Sheehan, Standig and Galdi keep bringing him on, and I wonder to some extent why.  It seems like it's the only place anybody will listen to him about anything.  

 

He was a bad coach, and while he gets or keeps trying to get more and more kudos on player personnel decisions, I really don't care what he has to say on anything.  It would be like a Lion's fan wanting to listen to what Matt Millen had to say about the team after his disastrous run as GM.  Completely irrelevant, probably wrong and totally useless.  And, kindof pathetic as well.  

 

My opinion on this one sentence is that it's stupid ass comparison and somewhat lazy.  And that kindof sums up his entire coaching tenure at Washington.  Stupid and lazy

 

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As I mentioned PFF doesn't hate Wylie score wise including last season.  Some of their anaylists don't think much though of Wylie the player in interviews.  But its one of those cases again where as I told you the PFF guys aren't slaves to their own scores.  . Another good example is they gave Stromberg good scores in college yet don't think much of the player.   Their anaylists like Payne but he doesn't score well.  So yeah there are some funky things with their scores.  But not everything is funky. 

My point really is, they're all over the map with scores and opinions, and it's very inconsistent.  If the analysts don't think much of him in interviews, then why don't the scores reflect that?  The reason is because the scores are partially due to film review, which is done by humans, which is inconsistent based on the grader.  

 

I'm not going to get into it with you on PFF.  I've said my piece.  I have my reasons for thinking the PFF grades are kidnof pointless. 

 

I was simply poking fun at you a little bit because your favorite whipping boy got a pretty reasonable PFF grade when literally everybody on this board thinks he was a Tyler Polumbus level of atrocity.  (He wasn't, but that's a different story.)

 

@MartinC, would you say poking fun at @Skinsinparadise about Wylie getting the 4th highest PFF score was a bit taking the mickey out on him?  Did I do that right? Chip Chip and Cheerio?  

[Darth Tater]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, Howell has always taken sacks. He's going to try and make every play work. Sometimes it's a scramble or off script throw, sometimes it's a sack. 

 

As long as it isn't fumbles and complete floating turkey balls, I'm good with it.

Yep, I think the reason guys like Rodgers takes a lot of sacks is because he knows his athleticism can often keep a bad call alive until it becomes a good play.  Manning did not have that level of athleticism to turn a bad call into a good play so as soon as he knew the call would not work, he got rid of the ball. I don't think Howell likes to go with the wimpy play if he thinks his athleticism can get him to the good play. I think he might be right but sometimes you just need to trust your defense (especially when it is good) or have awareness that when you don't necessarily need a play that's going to get 15-20 yards, go with the one that gets you positive yards if there is good reason to believe that going for the bigger play will likely result in a TO or an incompletion.

[FootballZombie]

Unless your so elite it does not matter, I think your offensive team construction has to contribute to the philosophy your QB abides by too. Otherwise your asking for trouble.

 

If your gonna be that force-it-in-there big play guy, you better have some decent pass catchers to go with it. Otherwise your just gunning balls into closed windows cuz nobody gets open or your zipping passes to guys w/ no hands.

 

If your gonna be a hold the ball till the very end kinda QB, and your paired with a sack prone sieve of an O-line, your gonna have a synergistic effect that will cause far more harm than good.

 

Every QB has their own identity, be it a Farve-like or Captain Check-down, but you gotta be able to tweak your play even within your defined spectrum based on what is around you.

 

 

 

For Howell, even if holding the ball is the QB school he subscribes too, I don't think hanging onto the loaf forever behind this oline will serve him very well. Especially when we pull some opponents that can actually rush the passer and are not named the Arizona Cardinals.