The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[DWinzit]

5 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

I wonder if they fire Judge too?  Presumably, Judge needs to win next year.  Otherwise, the new gm should get to pick his coach.

I think they can Gettleman and would like to give Judge another year. Also believe the new OC needs to make Jones better than Garrett and they hang onto him.

[ium786]

I believe the QB prospects in this year's draft are better than Daniel Jones and Duane Haskins, but not as good as Herbert or Joe Burrow.  In that case, I think this is a good year to draft a QB because it won't require a top 5 pick.  We can just sit back and relax, and draft whoever falls to us.  Best case scenario may be taking BPA with our first pick, and then then trading up to get a QB with our second pick.

[NewCliche21]

@Skinsinparadise Okay I'm no stranger to being an idiot, but I'm reading what you're posting as simultaneously "We'd better get a quarterback" and "We shouldn't get a QB unless it's *THE* guy"

I'm with you and Kdawg about last year seems to have been the best time to do it, but I don't know how to reconcile those two things that I'm reading and likely misinterpreting.  Could you expand?

[Est.1974]

We simply need to draft a QB early in the draft whilst we the insurance of TH under contract in 2022. Work from there.

[Thinking Skins]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think we are setting up with good intentions a strawman debate.  The idea of them taking a QB just to take a QB doesn't seem to me to be a viable argument where somehow its a debate with opposing arguments as if likewise its an actual debate happening in the FO. 

I'm going to come in and say hi there because you know this is my favorite conversation. My question is always about what the dropoff is at any given position. So if it's a deep draft for WRs then there may not be a big gap between the 5th best wr and the 10th. Then I've got no problem waiting and trying to grab a later one. 

 

In this situation, from a fan perspective it seems like there is no dominant QB in this vs class. Lots of potential, lots of weaknesses. This is the perfect draft I'd say we could either trade back in the first and see who is available on the late first or second. If nobody then let's just take a later round guy who has intelligence and intangibles to potentially grow as a backup. 

 

This is kinda where I was with the 21 draft, liking Mond the most because he seemed like just a drop behind the other guys but had the starting experience and mobility. I liked Jones but not as a high guy because I thought he depended on his WRs too much and didn't have enough experience. That's proving me kinda wrong but he's not lighting the world on fire like Burrow or Herbert. He's just playing smart. That was one of his strengths but I question hope high his ceiling is.

 

I say the same about this draft. It feels eerily like 2011 or 2019 or even 2021. Not saying that all these guys will be busts but with nobody really separating themselves, it seems like a bunch of just a guys. And I don't mind spending a pick on one, but I just think about the bust rate for QBs. Only reason I like Corral or Willis is their mobility.

[Warhead36]

22 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I think they can Gettleman and would like to give Judge another year. Also believe the new OC needs to make Jones better than Garrett and they hang onto him.

Judge stinks. He should be shown the door.

[peanut0862]

Why do so many people think Ron will not make it to the end of his contract when Snyder gave Jay six years?

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, peanut0862 said:

Why do so many people think Ron will not make it to the end of his contract when Snyder gave Jay six years?

Yeah the notion that Snyder is impatient is a little overblown now. Shanahan got four years and and Gruden got over five(was fired midseason so didn't quite reach six seasons). And before that was GIbbs who retired on his own after four.

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

In year one he pretty much gave Haskins a chance and getting another guy never really came into play. Year 2 he took a shot at Stafford and got outbid. Year 3 remains to be seen but I still think Dan/Tanya have so much respect for him that they pretty much have to honor his full contract. Firing RR short of him just totally dropping the ball with the roster would be a potential disaster for this organization. Too much good is happening since he came here including winning the division last year. 

Plus his players love him.

 

I've had to defend Rivera plenty of times on the board during down spells and I've noticed his critics on twitter, too.  It's not hard to see he doesn't have full love from the fan base.  That much is obvious.  Or at a minimum he loses the fan base quickly during losing streaks.  Personally I think its harsh but I don't think any coach will likely be fully embraced until fans see evidence of a real turnaround.  But I get why so many are jaded and in turn easily dissappointed because no one has turned the tide here.   But as for me, I am in the tank for Ron.   But there are limits to it. 

 

He's gotten skewered more than anything this year for not shooting enough for a franchise QB.  I know all about what he tried to do and not tried to do.  I've talked about it plenty.  Yet, I've defended it in part because insider types have said their game plan was to get really aggressive in the next off season whereas this past off season they would only pounce if they could get what they want relatively cheap.  Some act like Rivera blew it and won't recover by not taking a QB.  I am not in the camp either.  But if he does it again?  Then in my book his critics have merit because BOTH off seasons (this last one and the next one) become relevant as a package failure.  

 

Personally, I think they will genuinely get aggressive this off season.  And I am not really worried about this.  But some are making the argument of hey maybe we don't do it and suggesting considering context they'd be OK with it.  Count me out on that.   I wouldn't be OK with it.   I was OK with it this time.  But I won't be OK with it two years in a row and I can't endorse the idea of finding QB X in Ron's season #4.   

 

But I think all I am doing is arguing with some here on a hypothetical that they are OK with under a specific context.  I don't get the impression that Ron is laid back about the QB spot and is thinking whatever will be will be this off season. So I don't think this hypothetical happens. 

 

And again I said if on the off chance Rivera doesn't land some QB prospect, I'd still forgive it if they have a winning season next year or Heinicke somehow develops into being that guy.  But if he punts on QB and they ALSO have a losing season.  He deserves IMO to be fired.  Granted as I've said before, his replacement will likely be worse.  Still, you can't IMO go into season 4 with a team that looks bad and sell people that now you are on the hunt and will get that guy.  

Edited November 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, NewCliche21 said:

@Skinsinparadise Okay I'm no stranger to being an idiot, but I'm reading what you're posting as simultaneously "We'd better get a quarterback" and "We shouldn't get a QB unless it's *THE* guy"

I'm with you and Kdawg about last year seems to have been the best time to do it, but I don't know how to reconcile those two things that I'm reading and likely misinterpreting.  Could you expand?

 

I think the cliff notes version is this.   I think the underpinning of the debate is about what we think of this draft class.

 

I think this draft is mischarterized as a bad draft for QBs because its missing a headliner.  There is no Lawrence, Andrew Luck, or Kyler Murray.  I forgot his name but a dude from Draft Network summed it well for me in a radio interview recently.  No headliner but there is a number of intriguing prospects, as many as any draft that he can remember.  I can care less about a headliner because we don't have the #1 pick in the draft.  So yeah if Kyler Murray was in this draft it would be billed as a much better QB draft but to me the point is irrelevant to our bottom line considering the headliner would be irrelevant to our pick. 

 

The irony for me is Daniel Jones is brought up here, as an example of a dude we can't reach for.  Some goof on me for being the anti-Sam Darnold guy in last year's QB thread.   I just slammed him again and again and again.  But before I was known as the ultimate Darnold critic -- I was the I hate Daniel Jones guy on the draft thread.  I pounded him.  Haskins, too.  But I didn't attack Haskins until later in the process.  I pounded Jones for months.   

 

My point is I hated that 2019 draft class aside from Murray and I don't see this draft as apples to apples..  I am still digesting the QBs.  But thus far the best analogy that hits me is that there 5-6 QBs who don't seem that far off from the other.  All with different flavors.  My guy is Matt Corral.  But some of the others intrigue me too.   

 

In short I reject the premise that there might only be an acorn or two to shoot for so give them a break if they swing and miss.  I just don't buy that.  This draft is feeling really unusually funky at the QB spot.   It's been said by different draftniks that teams have different QB's they see as the best.  Some see it as Corral.  Some as Pickett.  Some as Willis.  Some really like Howell.  Some are intrigued by Ridder and Strong.

 

The bottom line for me is that in just about ANY draft some teams have been able to trade up and get their guy with the exception of the perceived top QB in the draft if he's a headliner type.  And I think there are enough fish in the sea to do it.   

 

So I don't buy the premise of hey not too many fish in the sea and they aren't going to be able to get their guy whomever that is.  It's possible but i don't think its likely.  

 

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/2022-nfl-draft-at-least-three-potential-qbs-viewed-as-first-round-options?campaign=Twitter_atn

...Unlike some years, there is no consensus. But entering an offseason that will center around the passers, the 2022 draft will feature enough of them.

 

After speaking with 10 NFL general managers or top executives, the resounding belief is that at least three quarterbacks go in the first round of next year's draft, with some expecting a fourth to go in Round 1, as well.

While there is no consensus No. 1 -- a Trevor Lawrence-type isn't in this draft – there are plenty of QBs with enough traits to build around and install as a quarterback of the future. The order varied based on who was on the other end of the phone. But while some early media favorites fell off, enough talented passers rose to give this class the requisite heft to get excited about if you are a team in need.

After speaking with 10 NFL general managers or top executives, the resounding belief is that at least three quarterbacks go in the first round of next year's draft, with some expecting a fourth to go in Round 1, as well.

While there is no consensus No. 1 -- a Trevor Lawrence-type isn't in this draft – there are plenty of QBs with enough traits to build around and install as a quarterback of the future. The order varied based on who was on the other end of the phone. But while some early media favorites fell off, enough talented passers rose to give this class the requisite heft to get excited about if you are a team in need.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I say the same about this draft. It feels eerily like 2011 or 2019 or even 2021. Not saying that all these guys will be busts but with nobody really separating themselves, it seems like a bunch of just a guys. And I don't mind spending a pick on one, but I just think about the bust rate for QBs. Only reason I like Corral or Willis is their mobility.

 

It feels to me nothing like those drafts at least not from my perspective.    It feels really unique.   

 

As for 2019, I think I like 6 QBs in this draft better than every QB in the 2019 draft after Kyler Murray. 

 

As for 2021, you had a clear headliner which this draft doesn't have.    And I was and still am a big Justin Fields guy.  I think he'd be the top QB in this draft.  And coming from a dude who really did like Mac Jones, I think we got 2-3 Qbs in this draft within his range IMO.

 

As for 2011, it doesnt have a headliner like Cam.  But I think the top 6 in this draft let alone just top 3 are way more intriguing than Ponder, Gabbert, Locker.  Locker wasn't even good his senior year in college.  Ponder was a shocker showing up in the mid first -- while another team made that mistake, that Ponder pick is very WFT like under Dan, reaching for 2nd round talents in the first. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm going to come in and say hi there because you know this is my favorite conversation. My question is always about what the dropoff is at any given position. So if it's a deep draft for WRs then there may not be a big gap between the 5th best wr and the 10th. Then I've got no problem waiting and trying to grab a later one. 

 

In this situation, from a fan perspective it seems like there is no dominant QB in this vs class. Lots of potential, lots of weaknesses. This is the perfect draft I'd say we could either trade back in the first and see who is available on the late first or second. If nobody then let's just take a later round guy who has intelligence and intangibles to potentially grow as a backup. 

 

 

I just can't look at QBs theoritically like that.  I need to go into specifics.   For example I can't go with something like hey Matt Jones is a pocket passer.  Kyle Trask is a pocket passer.  So hey instead of taking Mac in the mid first why not trade down, and take Trask in the 2nd for better value?

 

To me searching for QBs is not like trading stocks where hey maybe you can't get Microsoft at a high price, so grab Apple instead which has dropped in price at a discount and you can get a better deal and win either way. 

 

Sticking with the stock analogy, you might get lucky and get Telsa before it becomes big but fishing lower in the draft puts you in territory of not only missing out on the Telsas but you likely end up with a stock where you lose your shirt and come up with new money to buy a new stock next year to make up for the miss.    

Going for a QB IMO is a stock pickers market versus going for an index and riding with that.  Big winners and Big losers typically.  So for me there are some dudes who strike me as winners, some as losers.  The hard part is figuring that out.

 

And as for assessing these players.  I don't care if Mel Kiper or name that draft geek likes a player I don't.  Kiper and most mock drafters thought the Dolphins were geniuses for trading for Rosen who they rated highly.  And then there was Darnold who Daniel Jeremiah was in love with and thought the Panthers killed it on that trade.   Kiper said he was so sure Clausen who be a franchise QB that he'd quit if he failed.  I can go on and on.  So where Walterfootball, or McShay or whomever ranks these guys while I find to be entertaining, I also find it to be meaningless.  I recall some defending Dan for imposing his take on the Haskins pick on the Haskins thread back in the day becuase how loved Haskins was by mock drafters. 

 

My point in all of this is I don't believe in the "value" argument for QB and or judge it that way based on mock drafts.  I do believe in value for other spots.  But QBs are such a precious commodity than in my view I take a "value" pick later in the draft at Qb as simply meaning there is consensus that most teams don't see so and so as a franchise QB.   And yeah once in a blue moon some of these mid rounders turn into franchise QBs but the odds are heavily stacked against you.   Stats back that up.  

 

But lol, I do know you love those mid rounders.  Thus far my favorite on that count is this dude. 

 

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And as for assessing these players.  I don't care if Mel Kiper or name that draft geek likes a player I don't.  Kiper and most mock drafters thought the Dolphins were geniuses for trading for Rosen who they rated highly.  And then there was Darnold who Daniel Jeremiah was in love with and thought the Panthers killed it on that trade.   Kiper said he was so sure Clausen who be a franchise QB that he'd quit if he failed.  I can go on and on.  So where Walterfootball, or McShay or whomever ranks these guys while I find to be entertaining, I also find it to be meaningless.  I recall some defending Dan for imposing his take on the Haskins pick on the Haskins thread back in the day becuase how loved Haskins was by mock drafters. 

 

My point in all of this is I don't believe in the "value" argument for QB and or judge it that way based on mock drafts.  I do believe in value for other spots.  But QBs are such a precious commodity than in my view I take a "value" pick later in the draft at Qb as simply meaning there is consensus that most teams don't see so and so as a franchise QB.   And yeah once in a blue moon some of these mid rounders turn into franchise QBs but the odds are heavily stacked against you.   Stats back that up.  

I totally respect that. I never have the chance to watch almost any prospects but I can read almost a gazillion draft profiles and watch some cutups. I won't say that I defer to you because I did defend Haskins and others who you weren't a fan of. But I am almost never doing this on my own opinion, it's a reading the room to see who they like and don't.

 

Take Haskins, the convo was Murray then some permutation of Jones Haskins and Lock. I remember before the draft saying that is be fine waiting. I think we had Gibbs to dinner with Rypien or the guy from Richmond. But when we drafted Haskins without trading up, I was like meh, at least it didn't cost us and he had good grades. I was kinda like the Rodgers pick way of thinking (some reports had him as the best QB and a top 5 guy, so if we can get him this late then maybe it's a steal). I don't really have a problem with swinging and missing on a QB. It's just not my ideal move.

 

But it's hard because for 2 guys you'll see a lot of the same things listed as strengths (quick release, accurate, good arm) but one will be a top 5 guy and the other a mid round pick (Walter football is famous for this). It's generally hard for me to say why one is better than the other. I generally like senior bowl QBs that I can see play in that game and get more first hand reports about practice and habits etc. But these guys are not generally the top guys in the draft (Mond was here though). And mobility is something I value because it can help these guys play as they grow. But I favor an Allen type over a Hurts type because when they're too dependent on their legs, they may never develop that other side of their game. But this is all theoretical, I'm looking at this year's class but know almost nothing other than what I've read.

[mhd24]

If we resign Leno, then the first rounder must be either a qb or a back 7 defender.  Take whomever you didn’t take in the 1st with the 2nd, and take the best rb in the 3rd

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I totally respect that. I never have the chance to watch almost any prospects but I can read almost a gazillion draft profiles and watch some cutups. I won't say that I defer to you because I did defend Haskins and others who you weren't a fan of. But I am almost never doing this on my own opinion, it's a reading the room to see who they like and don't.

 

 

My point is no one should defer to anyone.   If you like following the QBs I advise to find some time to watch and make up your own mind.   If you don't have a lot of time then on youtube sometimes they will do full highlight cuts up from one game where they condense it all into like 6 minutes. 

 

When you do that then you are running with your own vision of these guys.  You could end up right or wrong but I think it makes it more fun and you feel more vested in certain players. 

 

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

But it's hard because for 2 guys you'll see a lot of the same things listed as strengths (quick release, accurate, good arm) but one will be a top 5 guy and the other a mid round pick (Walter football is famous for this).

 

I'll take Trask and Jones.  Some would lump them together.  But if you sit down and watch them IMO its not that hard to see major differences.    Sometimes you have prospects that look alike in some ways.  But usually they are different enough and not hard to spot the differences.  I am obviously far from a QB guru.  I am just playing around.  But if I am patient enough to watch players for 5 games or so, I end up with a feel for the player and sometimes my takes end up right.

 

As for QBs specifically, volsmet really helped me a lot.  I am sorry he doesn't post anymore.  He got me to re-evaulate Haskins and pushed me to do it in a way that I've continued to do since.  Among other things, check their accuracy across the whole field. In routes, out routes, in the flat, deep, everything.  Do they rely on a sweet spot mostly (like Haskins) or can they make most throws?  How do they perform under pressure?  Quick release?

 

When I watched Rosen when he was on the trading block, I noticed how many dumb decisions he made.  How did I notice?  I watched 5 college games and 3 pro games and I saw it repeatedly.  It was that same thing that turned me off to Darnold.  

 

If you watch just the highlights you'll see the best of what the QB could do but that's not reality.  Almost every high ranked QB had a nice attribute or two.  Rosen had beautiful foot work.  Darnold for a big guy can really make plays on the move.   His highlights were fun.  Haskins had a laser arm and was awesome throwing mesh routes and short throws in between the numbers. 

 

But on the aggregate, the whole kitchen sink, what are their flaws?  IMO if the flaws are a combination of accuracy and decision making, than I am out.  That was the combination for Darnold and that's why I trashed him non-stop.  But it didn't require a special eye to see it, I just had to put in the time to watch.    Anyone can do it so i don't think anything special even a whit about my ability to evaluate outside of I am simply willing to put in the time.   That's all.   But I give some credit to volsmet for helping me with what to look for.   But I am just messing around.  

 

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

And mobility is something I value because it can help these guys play as they grow. But I favor an Allen type over a Hurts type because when they're too dependent on their legs, they may never develop that other side of their game. But this is all theoretical, I'm looking at this year's class but know almost nothing other than what I've read.

 

Me, too. If I had to pick a QB that confuses me some on that front its Desmond Ridder.    I wouldn't say he's overly dependent on his legs.  but he's a real hard evaluation for me because he's almost like two different players from game to game. 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've had to defend Rivera plenty of times on the board during down spells and I've noticed his critics on twitter, too.  It's not hard to see he doesn't have full love from the fan base.  That much is obvious.  Or at a minimum he loses the fan base quickly during losing streaks.  Personally I think its harsh but I don't think any coach will likely be fully embraced until fans see evidence of a real turnaround.  But I get why so many are jaded and in turn easily dissappointed because no one has turned the tide here.   But as for me, I am in the tank for Ron.   But there are limits to it. 

 

He's gotten skewered more than anything this year for not shooting enough for a franchise QB.  I know all about what he tried to do and not tried to do.  I've talked about it plenty.  Yet, I've defended it in part because insider types have said their game plan was to get really aggressive in the next off season whereas this past off season they would only pounce if they could get what they want relatively cheap.  Some act like Rivera blew it and won't recover by not taking a QB.  I am not in the camp either.  But if he does it again?  Then in my book his critics have merit because BOTH off seasons (this last one and the next one) become relevant as a package failure.  

 

Personally, I think they will genuinely get aggressive this off season.  And I am not really worried about this.  But some are making the argument of hey maybe we don't do it and suggesting considering context they'd be OK with it.  Count me out on that.   I wouldn't be OK with it.   I was OK with it this time.  But I won't be OK with it two years in a row and I can't endorse the idea of finding QB X in Ron's season #4.   

 

But I think all I am doing is arguing with some here on a hypothetical that they are OK with under a specific context.  I don't get the impression that Ron is laid back about the QB spot and is thinking whatever will be will be this off season. So I don't think this hypothetical happens. 

 

And again I said if on the off chance Rivera doesn't land some QB prospect, I'd still forgive it if they have a winning season next year or Heinicke somehow develops into being that guy.  But if he punts on QB and they ALSO have a losing season.  He deserves IMO to be fired.  Granted as I've said before, his replacement will likely be worse.  Still, you can't IMO go into season 4 with a team that looks bad and sell people that now you are on the hunt and will get that guy.  

All I'm saying is that RR was brought into this organization to be much more than a winning head coach and he is succeeding. He's won the division with literally a one-legged QB and a bunch of unproven players. He's almost single-handedly taking the organization back to respectability in the middle of yet another scandal all while keeping them very competitive while searching for a QB. 

The WFT is the only organization in the NFL that I can think of that literally has no one on the roster who's seen as the future at QB yet, on RR's watch, they may have found a diamond in the rough to be the guy they invest in for the future....All at a bargain price!  Instead of talking about how he's not found a guy why are we not focusing on the fact that he's the guy that pulled TH out of the grocery store to keep this team competitive and possibly be the future QB of this team? Because no one believes in TH.

All TH has done is beat two former league MVP's two straight weeks while willing his team to victories. He's been spectacular and RR deserves credit for bringing him in and giving him the chance. This kid is making a believer out of his teammates, coaches, the media and the rest of the NFL, all he has left is to make believers out of the Washington fan base....

If I'm RR I'm investing in Heinicke over an unproven rookie because he's proven he can play. He's beaten the GOAT and kicked ass in the playoff game for his first NFL start. What more does he have to do to win our trust? 

[skins island connection]

 In a weird way I kinda feel for Daniel Jones.

He has very good size, good arm, and can run { sorta } but he just lacks weapons.

Now the Russell Wilson idea, i've soured on that.  Let's not forget he isn't a spring chicken, he's been in the league almost 10 years, and now time is starting to take a toll on his body.

He may have a couple more good years left but thats not the direction the WFT should be going; I thought it was about finding a long term solution, not another stop gap...

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

All I'm saying is that RR was brought into this organization to be much more than a winning head coach and he is succeeding. He's won the division with literally a one-legged QB and a bunch of unproven players. He's almost single-handedly taking the organization back to respectability in the middle of yet another scandal all while keeping them very competitive while searching for a QB. 

 

 

lol, i thought I might be the biggest Ron homer on the board.  But you got me beat albeit I am not sure if you liking of him is Heinicke based considering how much he's featured in your post?  So I'll counter argue some.  But just so you know, I got a lot of admiration for Ron and I've defended him a lot in the last two years.  We are feeling good this week because of 2 back to back wins.  But not that long ago, Ron was criticized plenty here.  And plenty by both the national and local media. 

 

But anyway, I'll take a role I typically don't take.  That is, playing some devil's advocate on Ron.   

 

So far he's done ok if we are looking at it purely based on record.  7-9 but they did make the playoffs.  Right now they are 4-6.  Will see how this season unfolds.  Jay Gruden who is seen by some here as the biggest dummy coach on the planet had a 3 year run similar (even better) than what Ron is on track for in the first two seasons.  So I like this team's progress but I am not blown away by it.  But I do think Ron is a great guy and a culture setter.  IMO he's not a great coach but a good coach.  As far as a GM, I know some have doubts.  I don't know yet.  But i like the track he's on. 

 

9 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

 

The WFT is the only organization in the NFL that I can think of that literally has no one on the roster who's seen as the future at QB yet, on RR's watch, they may have found a diamond in the rough to be the guy they invest in for the future....All at a bargain price!  

 

I've said before John Keim is a gem.  He's gotten so much right over the years its uncanny.  He's not perfect but he's nailed a lot.  From talking to multiple sources at the club, he doesn't think they think Heinicke is a franchise QB and the long term solution.  They like him but not to the degree you are pushing here.  Could that change?  Maybe.  But I think you are getting ahead of yourself.

 

9 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

 

All TH has done is beat two former league MVP's two straight weeks while willing his team to victories. He's been spectacular

 

I like Heinicke but I think you are getting carried away.  Jason Campbell outdueled Drew Brees.  Heath Shuler outdueled Troy Aikman.  Kirk outdueled Aaron Rodgers.  So what?  It's the NFL.   Nick Foles plowed through the playoffs beating big time QBs and then Brady.  Mike White was all the rage a few weeks ago, now he's on the bench.   Any given Sunday.    If its all about one off events, the WFT has had plenty of cool memories.  I recall sweeping the Giants the year they won the SB.  Beating GB too the year they won the SB.  We've not been good but we haven't missed the party as to having our share too of enjoying the Any Given Sunday dynamic. 

 

I like Heinicke, and I get the fun of thinking he's the dude to take us out of the QB mess.  But I'll buy in that he's the guy when I hear from any beat guy that they hear that Rivera sees him as the guy.  Heck Rivera practically told the Junkies two weeks ago they are obsesssing over QBs in the draft.    Every indications are all hands are on deck to find that guy.

 

9 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

 

If I'm RR I'm investing in Heinicke over an unproven rookie because he's proven he can play. He's beaten the GOAT and kicked ass in the playoff game for his first NFL start. What more does he have to do to win our trust? 

  

What more?  A lot more than that if you mean buying in that he's a franchise QB.   Todd Collins took us to the playoffs and helped save a floundering season.  Jason started 6-2 under Zorn and there was even some MVP talk during that time.  We bombed with Shuler but Gus looked like the real deal.    Short samples are dangerous.  Heinicke looked good at the beginning of the season, and some wanted to crown him.  Then he struggled and some argued whether he's even backup material.  Now he's back with two good games in a row and he's crowned again?

 

I don't feel like repeating a post a made eons ago that got into QBs who looked good for a streak and then came back to earth.  it's a long list.  My point isn't really Heinicke specific but just about QBs in general.  Plenty of teases over the years.  You want to see consistency over a season.

 

And like you i am a big Rivera guy.  I love listening to talk radio and hearing from people supposedly in the know.  And its not hard for me to piece together that Rivera doesn't see Heinicke as the long term solution -- Keim flat out said that.  So i am not going against Rivera here since he would know Heinicke better than anyone.  If I start hearing that tune changing than i am with you. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

 

If I'm RR I'm investing in Heinicke over an unproven rookie because he's proven he can play. He's beaten the GOAT and kicked ass in the playoff game for his first NFL start. What more does he have to do to win our trust? 

 

 I hear ya!

But the problem with this league and { for the most part {} its fans is everybody wants to win NOW, and keep on winning forever and ever and ever and ever.

There are some who look at Rodgers and say 'man, he get the Packers into the playoffs ok but he's only been to 1 SB.' 

Russell Wilson has only taken the Seahawks to 1 SB victory.

Drew Brees, 1 SB win.

If going by dreams, there's only 2 QBs { unless i'm having a brain fart } who have gone to more than 2 SBs in the last 20 years, Brady and Peyton Manning.

This team has been through a number of QBs over the last 20 years, most of them failed, a few did ok for a year or so, and one I know of showed promise but the organization didn't want to pay him. 

 

 Scenario: WFT gets a promising QB.  He starts off a little slow, starts to catch on and gets better, plays good for 8-10 games, then hits a wall, goes into a slump where he doesn't play well for awhile.   The fan base roasts the guy, wanting to trade him for a ham sammich, calls him a bust, and all but give up on the guy.

This happens to 99.9% of QBs. Just as Heinicke surprised everyone last year, playing his heart out, then next season has his ups and downs, gets streaky, and many want a " long term solution " at QB.  There is no guarantee that ANY QB taken in the draft will end up a perennial { that means year after year } winner, its mostly butt luck in finding a Brady or Manning, and this upcoming draft doesn't look to be anything worth giving up a #1 or #2 for that matter. 

 

Best solution is to solidify the rest of the team, if a QB becomes available who has shown they know how to win then get him, but it takes alot more than a very good QB to develop dreams of SuperBowls, and this team has a number of other holes to fill and assistants to find...

 

SIC

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by skins island connection

[CjSuAvE22]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

 

If I'm RR I'm investing in Heinicke over an unproven rookie because he's proven he can play. He's beaten the GOAT and kicked ass in the playoff game for his first NFL start. What more does he have to do to win our trust? 

Hes going to have to lead us to a playoff victory imo, Heinicke has progressed the last two weeks but I need to see more from him, the defense also has played well so when all cylinders are clicking Heinicke can win for us, however can he put the team on his back and carry us to a W?

[CapsSkins]

I think the only way for Heinicke to change the FOs mind about him is to win one if not multiple playoff games this year. Otherwise they will go hunting for a shiny new toy, even if TH is the starter Week 1 of 2022.

[88Comrade2000]

All you do with Heini is give him a one year extension and bump in pay.

 

You tell him, we plan on bringing someone to compete for the change.

 

If Heini wins the job in 22 and plays another full season; then you can decide if he’s the franchise qb.  You need 2 seasons before deciding if he’s the guy.

[PartyPosse]

2 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

All you do with Heini is give him a one year extension and bump in pay.

 

You tell him, we plan on bringing someone to compete for the change.

 

If Heini wins the job in 22 and plays another full season; then you can decide if he’s the franchise qb.  You need 2 seasons before deciding if he’s the guy.

He’s signed next year.

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

He’s signed next year.

Extend his contract a year to 23.

[Skinsinparadise]

When the playoffs start, the rare times when we make it, that's been my SB under Dan.  Yeah I expect them to be knocked out immediately but its fun for a short week to be talked about with the best of the best teams.  Heck pathetically, I'll even buy the playoff shirts that the NFL produces because its so rare for us to be there and so fun for a change to be relevant even for just a little time. 

 

Now the idea of being in the playoffs almost every year and actually winning some games?  Wow.  For me that would be unbelievable.   If that happens and they JUST win one SB in the mix of that success, it would be amazing.  And IMO to say it doesn't compare to the crap show we've had would be a wild understatement at least it would for me. 

 

For the last 29 years, just one short of 30.  We've had back to back winning seasons just twice.  And those two times they did it just barely, just a game or two over 500.  We are the only team that hasn't won more than 10 games in 30 years.  30 years!  That's insane.  😢

 

We've barely had water to drink.  So for me its not champagne or bust.  Wine.  Yawn.  It's nice that the Packers or Seahawks or the Steelers or the Ravens are in the playoffs all the time but how many rings do they have for doing it?  I would take their success in a second.   Football life would be 100 times sweeter.   This franchise would be looked by miles in a different way.  Those organizations are considered winners.  We are considered losers. 

 

The idea of us finding a QB who can get us to the playoffs once every 4 or 5 years and got knocked out.  And then we can relax and watch the rest of the playoffs and watch the really good teams.  Yeah its an experience I am familar with.  We got it once with Brunell.  We got it once with Todd Collins.  We got it once with RG3.  Once with Kirk.  Once with a combination -- mainly Alex.   The one off playoff season is our current SB.   

 

I got friends with teams who are winners including the Ravens and Steelers and they see my football life as a WFT fan as loserdom.    They feel sorry for me.  If I came back to my Steelers fan and went ha ha ha yeah you went 13-3 but lost in the playoffs.  Yeah you won 3 seasons in row with big winning season but no rings -- so your team is just as much as a loser as mine -- they'd laugh at me. 

 

I am not saying anyone is saying the opposite of this.  But my point is bringing home that for me the idea of consistent winning means everything.  To win an actual SB takes some luck, its not easy.  But all these teams for the most part have done that too.  But count me in a group that would love to be in the playoffs every year.  I've rooted for the Yankees for years and they had a long playoff draught and then all of a sudden started making it every year, that was a ton of fun for me.  Yeah they haven't won the WS now in a longish time but still just being relevant makes the baseball season a ton more fun compared to the irrelevant years.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise