The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Renegade7]

18 minutes ago, ananoman said:

How much of a "project" their respective teams thought those guys were, we will never know.  But the fact is, not a single one of those guys, not Brady, not Rodgers, not Brees, not Mahomes, played on day one.  In fact, they all rode the bench their rookie years and didn't become starters until year 2, with the exception of Rodgers, who rode the bench for 3 seasons before transitioning to starter midway through his 4th season.

 

Brees didn't become Brees until he went to New Orleans, you want to wait 6 years for a return on your first round investment? Thats what you are comparing it to.

 

Brady won the super bowl his second season. You saying he went from a guy that couldn't see the field, wasn't ready to an super bowl mvp his second year because he didn't play his rookie season?  Thats what it sounds like, that he needed that to make that leap.

 

Mahomes was first team all pro his second season.  He went from couldn't play day 1 to that his second season because he sat? That he needed to sit in order to do that?  

 

I'm not buying that Brady, Mahomes, or Rodgers couldn't start day one if they didn't have those established veterans they weren't supposed to replace yet in front of them.  Rodgers is an interesting case because he didn't make the pro bowl until his 5th season. 

 

Did not playing for three years really lead him to become what he became, or did it jus delay it?  Is Rodgers not starting day one for a team like the Lions that don't have a HoFer in front of them?  Does he not become the Aaron Rodgers level good in Detroit because of that?

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Monkey wrench time!!!

Ok, let's say that TH plays fairly good; not superb, but good, all things considered.

Being the draft table { at this moment } doesn't look to be a blockbuster for QBs, whats your view of 'other weapons'?

i.e.; a big time FA WR or a pro-worthy one from the draft? 

 

I ask this from my view, that whats missing from this team and TH is a big time WR threat, like a Hopkins or Adams or Antonio Brown.

Hopefully Thomas will be back soon, but regarding WRs its McLaurin, and thats it. Nobody else poses a threat to any secondary, so defenses can shadow him and pretty much single cover the others, but a second big play WR would definitely help out TH and the offense. 

 

That's tough for me because I have a hard time projecting things with Heinicke because he doesn't have the typical arm for typical good QBs.   So for me we are in outlier terrain where I struggle with making an easy comparison for Taylor.  @Koolblue13 made a good analogy of a weak armed QB being good as to Chad Pennington back in the day.  Pennington wasn't a top 10 guy IMO but at his peak he was good.   And yeah he did have a weak arm and he managed his way through it.  

 

That's my long winded way of saying it depends on the definition of playing good.   I am going to play it with Heinicke the way Rivera and crew see it.  If they think he's the guy.  I'll ride it.  If they don't think he's the guy then I'll trust them on that, too.   If they though skip QB in this draft because they think Heinicke is the guy and Heinicke ends up "meh" then Rivera deserves heavy criticism IMO.  But I'd let it play out. 

 

But just talking purely in theory if I was confident that Taylor is the long term answer as a "good" QB.  Then I'd ride with improving his supporting cast.  He already has a really good O line.  I think they need to add a RB and a WR.    I don't know if I am wild about taking a WR or RB though in this draft in the first.   Last year, I would have. 

 

I at this point in time I seriously doubt that the off season will be aboout building the offense around Heinicke as the future.  Stranger things have happened.  But if this was a bet, I'd put a lot of money against it unfolding like this.  

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I do. Heck Sam Darnold bombed for a number of years and the Jets still got a 3rd and 2 other picks along with it.  But the idea of Heinicke turning into some stud, and we'd have to dump our first round pick QB in turn, that's a nice problem to have.  I won't lose sleep over that on the wild off chance it goes down like that. 

 

I can't support trading a first round pick for a third round pick just for peace of mind.  Waste of resources.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Renegade7

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I can't support trading a first round pick for a third round pick just for peace of mind.  Waste of resources. 

 

To me its a fun conversation to have.  We have McDonalds all the time.  Now we got a Chris Ruth's steak for the first time ever for free.  But darn it we also have a steak from Mortons at the same time but gosh we paid $50 for it and now had to unload it for $35.  How can we enjoy the Chris Ruth's steak now? 

 

To me the scenario is so wild to begin with as for debating how to deal with being overwhelmed with riches -- I don't get the angst, not even a little.  Let me bring the point home in a different way.  If Heinicke ends up some top 10 stud.   I'd be so blown away, i'd be stunned and so happy that they can blow every pick next season 1 through 7, and I'd still be happy as a clam. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[skins island connection]

40 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To me the scenario is so wild to begin with as for debating how to deal with being overwhelmed with riches -- I don't get the angst, not even a little.  Let me bring the point home in a different way.  If Heinicke ends up some top 10 stud.   I'd be so blown away, i'd be stunned and so happy that they can blow every pick next season 1 through 7, and I'd still be happy as a clam. 

 

 The best thing for TH right now is a good QB coach; i'm not familiar with Zampese's success so I can't say about that, but even if he doesn't make the top 10 I can live with that, as long as he doesn't fizzle out.

To me its a team sport, and I can agree that putting the team on his back may not pan out, but thats where getting him help i.e. top WR and maybe a bruising FB to help in protection and other things would certainly make this team formidable. 

His biggest and probably only weakness is arm strength, but his other attributes make him a different and dangerous QB who, with team solidifying, could very well take this team to the NFCCG or SB. 

Trent Dilfer rode the defense's coattails all the way to a SB victory, and thus far i'd say that TH is a better QB than Dilfer. That guy has been put on a pedestal and why I have no idea because IMO he was below average.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 The best thing for TH right now is a good QB coach; i'm not familiar with Zampese's success so I can't say about that, but even if he doesn't make the top 10 I can live with that, as long as he doesn't fizzle out.

To me its a team sport, and I can agree that putting the team on his back may not pan out, but thats where getting him help i.e. top WR and maybe a bruising FB to help in protection and other things would certainly make this team formidable. 

His biggest and probably only weakness is arm strength, but his other attributes make him a different and dangerous QB who, with team solidifying, could very well take this team to the NFCCG or SB. 

Trent Dilfer rode the defense's coattails all the way to a SB victory, and thus far i'd say that TH is a better QB than Dilfer. That guy has been put on a pedestal and why I have no idea because IMO he was below average.

 

If only Trent Dilfer were the norm.  Also the NFL was different then.  It was 20 years ago yet we hear that one over and over again because of how rare it was.  I am not a big bank on the anamolies kind of guy.   

 

I know all the arguments.  Didn't we win in the 80s without a franchise QB?  Trent Dilfer.   Peyton Manning wasn't hot and Denver won the SB with a defense.   Nick Foles got hot and out dueled Brady.  The Giants defense and Eli.    The only point I concede on winning a SB without a top QB is a streaky QB can get hot all of a sudden.  Eli and Foles got hot.  Those teams won because they kept pace and even played better than franchise QBs on the other side.   I actually used that argument to back their signing of Fitz.  But even when I said it, I didn't suggest that is likely to happen.  I said he would fit that you never know argument.  

 

Game managing SB wins are really rare, the defense has to be unbelievable.  And the two cases of that would be the Ravens 20 years ago and Denver that one year.   As for being consistent winners with just average QB play, I think those days are behind us.  Denver's run didn't last.  The Bears have tried to win with defense. The Jets for a period, etc.  It's really hard to do.  On the other hand winning consistently with a franchise QB is almost a given.  they can have some off down years but teams like that are in the playoffs almost every year. 

 

I got no doubt we can keep the streak we got going with average QB play.  That is, hey we are kind of average.  Some years worse than that.  But every 4 years or so we can sneak into the playoffs and get knocked out.  And if people are cool with it.  I see nothing that we are doing that will take us off that path.   And if the idea is hey why can't we have that one off season and win the SB?  Yeah I guess you never know. I seriously doubt it but I can't rule anything out. I recall Larry Miichael ironically would peddle that argument that the thinking in the building for years was why can't the WFT get hot like the Eagles did that one season with Foles.  They got players.  Maybe not a great QB but hey stranger things have happened.  OK fine.  It doesn't get me jazzed but I can't rule it out that someday that might happen if we keep on this track.   

 

Yep, exceptions exist.  Why bother drafting a MLB high when Anotnio Pierce and London Fletcher were undrafted FAs?  Why can't we do it again.  It's life anything is possible.  And its fun to think about those who went against the odds and won.  But when you go through it all your odds are miles better when you play the odds versus hoping you are one of the rare exceptions to the odds IMO.

 

Why am I hung up on getting that guy?  I don't like playing the exceptions rule.  And that goes double when we got the most stupid and dysfunctional owner in the NFL.  I think we got to hope to be able to do it the easy way.   It's not easy to find a franchise QB.  But teams who have them tend to win even when the rest of their rosters isn't hot.   Being that lightening in the bottle team with Dan as our owner is not something I expect to happen. 

 

As for the Heinicke stuff, the more I read the praise the more worried I get. It feels like deja vu.  I think we got to cool off and let the season unfold.  I am not worried about building the team around Heinicke at this point.   My mind is focused on getting a QB.  Maybe my mind will be in a different place at the end of the season but its not their yet. 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Not one person on this board thinks we're a lock for the superbowl, but its possible. It's a very long shot to even make the playoffs, but its all possible. Sure, Heinicke could get red hot and ride this run game down the seasons throat. 

 

But that's not how you build for long term success. Eagles did it and now the QB back up, starter, coaches, all gone and they were a preseason lock to be top 5 in the draft and started the season looking like it. 

 

But they had patience with a young QB and head coach is starting to pay off and they'll probably be looking at a good team for 10 years, that should have multiple shots at SB runs.

[Skinsinparadise]

As for as the supporting cast.  I think @Koolblue13 would be especially jazzed to hear this.  I was listening to Logan Paulsen on Keim's podcast.  Paulsen wasn't a great TE but he was a really good blocking TE.    He was gushing about Bates' blocking.  He suggested he's developing into someone really special on that front and its rare to see that in today's TEs.  He also praised Milne on that front (I've touted Milne for awhile too also because of his run blocking) as being a really good run blocker.

 

Listening to him it really sold me even more on adding a RB because he's blown away by Scott Turner's scheme as for the running game coupled with the blocking and Masko's contribution.  He said Masko has the O line so prepared.  He's friends with Wes S.  who tells him they do like 6 walk throughs a day so in short they are super prepared.   And Paulsen said he was an early critic of Turner but during the bye week he studied the scheme closer and saw guys getting open but Heinicke just wasn't seeing it.  but he learned to appreciate what Turner was doing upon taking a closer look.  And he suggested Heinicke is seeing things better of late.

 

He went on about how all the motion that Turner has in his scheme makes it confusing for defenses to stop the run.  He talked about how the TE is often in motion too and what they are doing is more or less is running with 11 personnel where the opponent has a nickle defender and they force the nickle defender to follow the motion and that defender in turn becomes tasked to stop the run and they are struggiling to do it because they are undersized.  But he went into detail about how they are using motion to set up the run and it in combination confuses at times or overwhelms the opponent.  And he thinks they got the run blocking horses on the O line and Bates really is become killer guy along with them.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Not one person on this board thinks we're a lock for the superbowl, but its possible. It's a very long shot to even make the playoffs, but its all possible. Sure, Heinicke could get red hot and ride this run game down the seasons throat. 

 

But that's not how you build for long term success. Eagles did it and now the QB back up, starter, coaches, all gone and they were a preseason lock to be top 5 in the draft and started the season looking like it. 

 

But they had patience with a young QB and head coach is starting to pay off and they'll probably be looking at a good team for 10 years, that should have multiple shots at SB runs.

 

I think long term success is clearly a combination of a franchise QB and a supporting cast.  Sometimes this conversation gets into and either or conversation.  Generally though I think its both, its just the Qb is the harder get. 

 

For example, I think NE found their guy in Mac Jones.   But they wouldn't be winning if they didn't have the defense.  But their roster is far from perfect, Mac Jones himself IMO doesn't have a killer supporting cast, he doesn't even have IMO a legit #2 receiver let alone a #1.  But if you have a good roster and a good QB -- I think you can survive a weakness on the roster.

 

I don't think though you can build a consistent winner without good QB play.  It doesn't IMO have to be AAron Rodgers level great.  But if you got Matt Ryan in his prime.  You can have a run like this.  Do i think its dreaming the impossible dream to land the next Matt Ryan?  Nope.  Guys like Aaron Rodgers are unicorns.  But almost every team in the NFL but us has found their Matt Ryan type for a spell. 

 

2008	2008	NFL	NFC	South	2nd	11	5	0	Lost Wild Card playoffs (at Cardinals) 30–24	Matt Ryan (OROY) Mike Smith (COY)	Mike Smith
2009	2009	NFL	NFC	South	2nd	9	7	0
2010	2010	NFL	NFC	South	1st	13	3	0	Lost Divisional playoffs (Packers) 48–21
2011	2011	NFL	NFC	South	2nd	10	6	0	Lost Wild Card playoffs (at Giants) 24–2
2012	2012	NFL	NFC	South	1st	13	3	0	Won Divisional playoffs (Seahawks) 30–28 Lost NFC Championship (49ers) 28–

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I really think we struck major gold with Bates. I rewatched the highlight video (don't have the entire game) 3 times keying on him and WOW. Bates may have been our biggest homerun in this draft.

 

His blocking is already awesome to watch, but he has a real future as a Receiver too. You can tell he understands assignments and should be smart enough to find holes in the zones. 

 

When he gets comfortable with the ball in his hand and starts to realize he's allowed to bulldozer defenders as a ball carrier, look out.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I really think we struck major gold with Bates. I rewatched the highlight video (don't have the entire game) 3 times keying on him and WOW. Bates may have been our biggest homerun in this draft.

 

His blocking is already awesome to watch, but he has a real future as a Receiver too. You can tell he understands assignments and should be smart enough to find holes in the zones. 

 

When he gets comfortable with the ball in his hand and starts to realize he's allowed to bulldozer defenders as a ball carrier, look out.

 

Bates was the dude who made that super cluch catch that should have hit the dirt.   Yeah listening to Paulsen it made me think of the Hogs playing with Don Warren.  He was talking about how Bates is also smart in that your blocking assignment can change based on wherever the blitz is coming from and he can tells that Bates is a big studier because he seems to know who is the the right player is to get in front of in those cases.  Paulsen suggested a lot of TEs don't put in that kind of preperation time.  He talked about how Bates finishes blocks.  On and on. 

 

Then he got into Masko being such a preperation hound and good teacher.  And talked about how Lucas for example wasn't that hot in training camp when he first came here but now he looks like a totally different player.  I can't recall this level of gushing about a position coach we have.  But Masko just based on performance seems even better than Callahan.  Dudes like Wes Schweizer weren't this good previously.  Ditto Lucas.  Cosmi has come on fast.  Rouiller really became elite last year for the first time.  Leno has been good.  Flowers might be having a career season.

 

My point this offense with some tinkering might be really good next year.    And listening to Paulsen, Turner might not be the dolt that some think him to be. 

 

 

 

 

I'd add Hoener the TE coach also has a biggish rep.  Supposedly he's a Parcells type of character.  Drill seargent. 

 

But yeah he helped Logan Thomas develop last year.  Thomas was just a guy in Detroit.  Ricky Seals-Jones was a journeyman -- yet looked like he was coming on some.  Now Bates. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Bates was the dude who made that super cluch catch that should have hit the dirt.   Yeah listening to Paulsen it made me think of the Hogs playing with Don Warren.  He was talking about how Bates is also smart in that your blocking assignment can change based on wherever the blitz is coming from and he can tells that Bates is a big studier because he seems to know who is the the right player is to get in front of in those cases.  Paulsen suggested a lot of TEs don't put in that kind of preperation time.  He talked about how Bates finishes blocks.  On and on. 

 

Then he got into Masko being such a preperation hound and good teacher.  And talked about how Lucas for example wasn't that hot in training camp when he first came here but now he looks like a totally different player.  I can't recall this level of gushing about a position coach we have.  But Masko just based on performance seems even better than Callahan.  Dudes like Wes Schweizer weren't this good previously.  Ditto Lucas.  Cosmi has come on fast.  Rouiller really became elite last year for the first time.  Leno has been good.  Flowers might be having a career season.

 

My point this offense with some tinkering might be really good next year.    And listening to Paulsen, Turner might not be the dolt that some think him to be. 

 

 

 

 

I'd add Hoener the TE coach also has a biggish rep.  Supposedly he's a Parcells type of character.  Drill seargent. 

 

But yeah he helped Logan Thomas develop last year.  Thomas was just a guy in Detroit.  Ricky Seals-Jones was a journeyman -- yet looked like he was coming on some.  Now Bates. 

I think most of our coaches are safe this year, unless we really take off. I hope so, because I'm a lot higher on the offensive coaching than most.

 

One of the reasons I'm totally fine letting RSJ walk this year is Hoener and who we have in the pipeline. Bates is definitely in that Don Warren mold, but I think he'll be a better receiver. Reyes could be the next big thing for an off line TE and his blocking is great. Thomas will be expendable soon, but those 3 on the field with TMac and Gibby is a hell of a formation to run and pass out of.

 

I'm with you that this team is a lot closer than most people think we are.

[Skinsinparadise]

40 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think most of our coaches are safe this year, unless we really take off. I hope so, because I'm a lot higher on the offensive coaching than most.

 

One of the reasons I'm totally fine letting RSJ walk this year is Hoener and who we have in the pipeline. Bates is definitely in that Don Warren mold, but I think he'll be a better receiver. Reyes could be the next big thing for an off line TE and his blocking is great. Thomas will be expendable soon, but those 3 on the field with TMac and Gibby is a hell of a formation to run and pass out of.

 

I'm with you that this team is a lot closer than most people think we are.

 

I am listening to Rivera being interviewed now on the Junkies, its a rerun but I didn't catch it on Tuesday.    But he's touting his assistant coaches.  And he is emphasizing that they went out of their way to build depth on the O line.  Personally, i think that's uber smart and not something this FO has always done.  Seasons often go off the rails when the team's O line get savaged with injuries.  This team has the depth to survive it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I am afraid to post it becuase I don't feel like debating anymore the maybe we don't need to draft a QB thing.  But what the heck.  Let's get crazy.

 

Rivera has said they are coaching Heinicke to stop so much aiming the ball but instead throw it.  Standig in his podcast suggesting that they might think he's putting too much touch on his throws and he needs to zip it more.  Some here think his arm strength looks better post bye week, if so maybe this is the reason?  It doesn't look distinctly stronger, as to his arm strength to me but I admit that's hard to see unless you are at the game.  I'll finally get to see Heinicke play live (outside of camp) the following week in Vegas.  So maybe that will change my mind or for that matter make me double down on his arm strength.

 

Part of the reason why I pushed back on those who said last off season that Mac Jones has a weak arm is my experience seeing it live.  IMO nothing beats judging arm strength than seeing the game in the flesh, its not always easy to judge on TV especially when it comes to borderline type cases.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am listening to Rivera being interviewed now on the Junkies, its a rerun but I didn't catch it on Tuesday.    But he's touting his assistant coaches.  And he is emphasizing that they went out of their way to build depth on the O line.  Personally, i think that's uber smart and not something this FO has always done.  Seasons often go off the rails when the team's O line get savaged with injuries.  This team has the depth to survive it. 

Smart. Scherff is generally injured and is out this year. Lucas and Leno were big question marks. Charles stinks. Oline depth makes a ton of sense, as does how they were moving them around in the preseason. For the course of a full season, you really have to have 7 potential starters.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Smart. Scherff is generally injured and is out this year. Lucas and Leno were big question marks. Charles stinks. Oline depth makes a ton of sense, as does how they were moving them around in the preseason. For the course of a full season, you really have to have 7 potential starters.

 

I'll give Charles more time.  But I'll say if Masko is a genius as to bringing out the best out of talent on the O line then it doesn't look good for Charles that he comes off as the only one not part of that party.  Cosmi looked good, my only fear is he's off to a Scherff type of season in terms of missing time for this or that.

[skins island connection]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for the Heinicke stuff, the more I read the praise the more worried I get. It feels like deja vu.  I think we got to cool off and let the season unfold.  I am not worried about building the team around Heinicke at this point.   My mind is focused on getting a QB.  Maybe my mind will be in a different place at the end of the season but its not their yet. 

 

Hope you have a great Thanksgiving day to you as well as everyone else on ES!😀

 

I may have not been on point  with what I was trying to say, so i'll say it this way.

I'm not trying to say 'lets build the team around Heinicke', but let's build a team while Heinicke is here/playing, and whatever happens down the road go from there.

I don't follow college ball so i';m not familiar with the upcoming draft, but from what i've heard and read the class doesn't look to be much for pickins.

 What about instead of focusing on getting a QB in the draft { if they look average-at-best at season's end } building the rest of the team and holding off until 2023? I like TH but I can't say whether he will continue to get better or not, but building the rest of the team for whoever the future QB will be instead of going after a QB who just doesn't appear to jump out as being 'that guy'.

Of course if there is a QB prospect in the draft and they can get him without selling the farm then its a moot point, but the rest of the team will be improved for whoever and whenever they get here...

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Here’s a gif of Sam Howell blocking on a running play. I see that he’s playing today against NC State after missing last week with a shoulder injury.

 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am afraid to post it becuase I don't feel like debating anymore the maybe we don't need to draft a QB thing.  But what the heck.  Let's get crazy.

 

Rivera has said they are coaching Heinicke to stop so much aiming the ball but instead throw it.  Standig in his podcast suggesting that they might think he's putting too much touch on his throws and he needs to zip it more.  Some here think his arm strength looks better post bye week, if so maybe this is the reason?  It doesn't look distinctly stronger, as to his arm strength to me but I admit that's hard to see unless you are at the game.  I'll finally get to see Heinicke play live (outside of camp) the following week in Vegas.  So maybe that will change my mind or for that matter make me double down on his arm strength.

 

Part of the reason why I pushed back on those who said last off season that Mac Jones has a weak arm is my experience seeing it live.  IMO nothing beats judging arm strength than seeing the game in the flesh, its not always easy to judge on TV especially when it comes to borderline type cases.

Forgetting about expectations, one of the most impressive things about TH for me is the tangible growth we’ve seen.  Durability concerns?  He puts on 15 lbs of muscle and has done a brilliant job of protecting himself when he runs (the dive in GB aside, lol).  Sailing the ball regularly - seems to have made serious improvements here.  Accuracy?  He’s gotten much better; he’s hitting guys in the hands routinely (far from perfect of course).  Throwing into double/triple coverage?  Can’t recall seeing this recently.  Decided to just have fun (along with the focus on throwing vs aiming) - he looks much more comfortable and put up two very impressive performances.  They focused on redzone play over the bye week - he’s been much more efficient/dangerous there.

 

None of that is me trying to argue he’s the future here, I just think that level of stark improvement is not something you see often.

 

Some other random points:

I don’t see any way TH can sustain the performance level of the past 2 weeks.  That’s not a knock on him - I don’t think any qb can expect to average 28 pts, be hyper efficient in key situations, and have 0 turnovers over 7 games (let alone his deep ball % and performance vs blitzes).

 

I’m also not tying him (and his future) to a playoff berth or win(s).  Too much of a team game and all it takes is an untimely penalty/turnover/missed kick or a key injury or two, and we’ll have to be insanely lucky to claw our way out of this hole we’ve dug.

 

Previously, I was set on drafting a qb, but now I’m torn on drafting one qb early.  If TH is a top 15 type of qb going forward (with flashes of top 5-10 play), I want instead to add to the roster.  

If he’s closer to average these last 7 games (without big time flashes like these past 2 games), I’m looking hard at drafting a qb, but I’m not looking to force the issue (trading significant resources).  I’d also consider trying to land future resources to potentially trade up in the future.  

If he’s clearly below average, I’m going hard after a qb (if there’s one I really like).

 

I realize it’s a little confusing to distinguish top 15 from average as 15th is one off of the average (16), but hopefully that made enough sense.

 

 

[Jumbo]

now that i've slept off my first massive overdose of carbs, fat, sodium, and tryptophan, i find myself waking with my final answer to the thread title's question: more cowbell!!!

 

 

 

 

i now go into preparation for round two of my holiday arterial assault 

[TK]

1 minute ago, Jumbo said:

now that i've slept off my first massive overdose of carbs, fat, sodium, and tryptophan, i find myself waking with my final answer to the thread title's question: more cowbell!!!

That's it.

 

No more Ripple for you. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

Throwing into double/triple coverage?  Can’t recall seeing this recently.  

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

Forgetting about expectations, one of the most impressive things about TH for me is the tangible growth we’ve seen.  Durability concerns?  He puts on 15 lbs of muscle and has done a brilliant job of protecting himself when he runs (the dive in GB aside, lol).  Sailing the ball regularly - seems to have made serious improvements here.  Accuracy?  He’s gotten much better; he’s hitting guys in the hands routinely (far from perfect of course).  Throwing into double/triple coverage?  Can’t recall seeing this recently.  Decided to just have fun (along with the focus on throwing vs aiming) - he looks much more comfortable and put up two very impressive performances.  They focused on redzone play over the bye week - he’s been much more efficient/dangerous there.

 

None of that is me trying to argue he’s the future here, I just think that level of stark improvement is not something you see often.

 

Some other random points:

I don’t see any way TH can sustain the performance level of the past 2 weeks.  That’s not a knock on him - I don’t think any qb can expect to average 28 pts, be hyper efficient in key situations, and have 0 turnovers over 7 games (let alone his deep ball % and performance vs blitzes).

 

I’m also not tying him (and his future) to a playoff berth or win(s).  Too much of a team game and all it takes is an untimely penalty/turnover/missed kick or a key injury or two, and we’ll have to be insanely lucky to claw our way out of this hole we’ve dug.

 

Previously, I was set on drafting a qb, but now I’m torn on drafting one qb early.  If TH is a top 15 type of qb going forward (with flashes of top 5-10 play), I want instead to add to the roster.  

If he’s closer to average these last 7 games (without big time flashes like these past 2 games), I’m looking hard at drafting a qb, but I’m not looking to force the issue (trading significant resources).  I’d also consider trying to land future resources to potentially trade up in the future.  

If he’s clearly below average, I’m going hard after a qb (if there’s one I really like).

 

I realize it’s a little confusing to distinguish top 15 from average as 15th is one off of the average (16), but hopefully that made enough sense.

 

 

 

 

Cool.  Personally I am not torn about drafting a QB.  Not even a little.  The most blunt way for me to explain my position on Heinicke is this:

 

 I don't think a dude with that kind of arm is capable of being a franchise QB.  I am not really even close to being on the fence about it.  But like anything, my mind is open to being wrong.  At the moment, I think its borderline absurd to project Heinicke as a top 10 QB type.  Borderline laughable.  But I mean that with no ill will towards the dude.  Like everyone I am rooting hard for him.  I love the story.   And I've been wrong before of course and I'd love to be wrong here.  The only reason why I am even entertaining the thought at this point in the season is some people here that I like are pushing the narrative so I'll humor it for that reason.  

 

But I don't mean that in a mean spirited-patronizing kind of way.  I am not laughing at those who entertain the thought.  I've been there plenty of times myself.  It's fun to have that thought.  I've just visted that thought too many times over the years to do it again.  I want the movie to play out first.  I am just explaining my mindset and why I am not budging on entertaining the thought yet of Heinicke being the guy.

 

I am not blown away by ANY QB's peaks along the valleys.  Average QBs aren't just average in a straight line typically.  They will have some mediocre games.  But then they will have a game or two where they are just fire and will outduel the greats.  Then they will have some dud performances even against bad defense just like Heinicke had against KC for example. My fixation is on consistency over a decent sample. 

 

I love Heinicke's personality.  And I get why some are blown away by the dude and how much fun it is to think he's the solution.   Maybe 10 years ago or so I'd be leading the charge for the Heinicke Hive.  But now i am old and jaded.  I need to see it play out.  I'd be an easier sell if I can think of an easy comparison precedent for Heinicke as for a QB he reminds me of among the top 10 QBs.     

 

Heinicke has other things going for him, indeed.  But projecting him as a top 10 QB top or even 1-14 would involve breaking the mold as far as I can tell.  It would be like having an ace pitcher with an 85 MPH.  It's so rare that I can't get over it for now.  I'd need to see it unfold.  Like I said in another post, I could be talked into him becoming an average QB starter.  

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skins island connection said:

Hope you have a great Thanksgiving day to you as well as everyone else on ES!😀

 

I may have not been on point  with what I was trying to say, so i'll say it this way.

I'm not trying to say 'lets build the team around Heinicke', but let's build a team while Heinicke is here/playing, and whatever happens down the road go from there.

I don't follow college ball so i';m not familiar with the upcoming draft, but from what i've heard and read the class doesn't look to be much for pickins.

 What about instead of focusing on getting a QB in the draft { if they look average-at-best at season's end } building the rest of the team and holding off until 2023? I like TH but I can't say whether he will continue to get better or not, but building the rest of the team for whoever the future QB will be instead of going after a QB who just doesn't appear to jump out as being 'that guy'.

Of course if there is a QB prospect in the draft and they can get him without selling the farm then its a moot point, but the rest of the team will be improved for whoever and whenever they get here...

 

Happy Thanksgiving to you and others too. 

 

I get the logic of your point.  In short, I do like this draft better than some others do.  My hunch is Heinicke's ceiling is to be an average starter.  So I'd want to take another shot at the well, draft a dude and if he ends up a dud -- then Heinicke is good insurance.  I am not that worried as some others seem to be that drafting a QB results in losing Heinicke.  I think they will figure it out. 

 

I do agree to keep building the roster.  I think this offense is pretty close when its healthy. 

[Thinking Skins]

@zskins, that pass was so beautiful and so scary. I can't complain about his arm strength until we see a Colt McCoy type game where he's clearly unable to make the throws. We haven't seen that. We have seen some awkward releases and floaters but those have been some be of the prettiest ones if the year, and they've been complete. So what if he can be throw a 65 yarder. He threw I think 3 deep to TMac last week (completed 2) that we're 30+ yards. Had a nice deep one to the RB, and another few to Carter and RSJ. Just because he's not Haskins doesn't mean he's Pennington