Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

I’ve always called Taylor the wildcard for this team but I didn’t envision him being just that, in the negative sense. He played horribly on Sunday. I hope he can shake it off and get right for Philly because God knows we need it. 

 

Lets Go Taylor!! Shake it off and come out Aces on Sunday, we are rooting for you!!

He was getting his moxie back in that third quarter 5 completions in a row before the fumble (including a TD to Sims). I think he was just shaken up a bit but he's gonna be ready for dem birds. 

[London Kev]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It's safe to say this all boils down to exactly what many of us have been saying about Taylor all along: He can't physically make all the throws necessary to be a legit NFL starter.  That has nothing to do with me wanting to be "right" about him.  I'd love to be wrong and have him transcend all that's working against him, it's just always seemed highly unlikely that's going to happen.

 

To his credit, he gets the absolute most out of what he has.  I like SIP's description as "Rudy".  I love his fire and competitiveness.  I get why some folks are really enamored with him and want to project him to be more than what he's capable of being.  What I don't get is those same people referring those of us non-believers as "haters" or that we're obsessed with arm strength as the end all be all of playing quarterback in the NFL.  There is a baseline of arm strength needed to stretch the field and fit the ball into the tight windows QB's will inevitably be forced to throw into.  We're not looking for a cannon, but we also can't have ducks dropping from the sky, putting both the ball and our pass catchers in harms way regularly.

 

When everything else is clicking on all cylinders with the running game it creates opportunities for Taylor and to his credit he's excelled when that is the case.  That's just not how you are going to win more than you lose consistently in the NFL anymore.  I've seen some folks point to Mac Jones and the Pats this season, the Travis Henry led Titans as examples of how this still works.  At times, it certainly does but eventually you have to be able to stretch the field and put a defense back on their heels a bit.  I'm sure we're going to see Mac Jones come back to earth but even his arm talent is clearly superior to TH.  Tannehill for the Titans is no world beater himself, but again his arm is clearly superior to TH.

 

I must reiterate, all of that is okay as well.  I don't have any ill-will for Taylor, which is why the arguments that I or others with similar opinions are haters, seeing what we want to see, only worried about being right, etc. is complete and utter nonsense.  What gets me are the folks that took a strong stance on Taylor having legit potential moving forward for us showing up here to tell us that it's not piss but rain pouring down our backs after bad games.  I have literally no skin in the game in regards to Taylor Heineke.  If for whatever reason he comes out against Philly and rips the ball all over the football field and continues to do so from here on out, I couldn't be more happy to eat crow about it.  

 

This is exactly what a hater would say 🙂. 

[ODU AGGIE]

On 12/13/2021 at 6:27 AM, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I believe it's time @ODU AGGIEreturns to Witness Protection, at least for a week.  

I'm alive and well -- OK, almost well. I just had surgery on my right eye, and that slowed my down a little. TH had a rough game as did the WFT in general. The Cowboys just looked stronger across the board. We get them again after the Eagles on Sunday, and maybe we can put it on them in their house. That said, I think TH comes back with a good game against the Eagles and we go on to make the playoffs, but right now It looks pretty certain that Dallas will take the division.

[wit33]

2 hours ago, ODU AGGIE said:

I'm alive and well -- OK, almost well. I just had surgery on my right eye, and that slowed my down a little. TH had a rough game as did the WFT in general. The Cowboys just looked stronger across the board. We get them again after the Eagles on Sunday, and maybe we can put it on them in their house. That said, I think TH comes back with a good game against the Eagles and we go on to make the playoffs, but right now It looks pretty certain that Dallas will take the division.

Off topic, but do you know if Heineke has run much RPO/RO in his career? I’ve looked at his college highlights and there seems to be a small amount, but for most part he’s in gun and dropping back. 
 

Just curious if he’s not comfortable with RPO/RO stuff and that’s why it’s not being featured. 

[Berggy9598]

14 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Off topic, but do you know if Heineke has run much RPO/RO in his career? I’ve looked at his college highlights and there seems to be a small amount, but for most part he’s in gun and dropping back. 
 

Just curious if he’s not comfortable with RPO/RO stuff and that’s why it’s not being featured. 

Sometimes RPO is used to manufacture completions for QBs when they’re struggling going through possessions. Probably wasn’t necessary when he was in college considering he was already doing ok with his progressions in the playoffs last year. 

[wit33]

33 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Sometimes RPO is used to manufacture completions for QBs when they’re struggling going through possessions. Probably wasn’t necessary when he was in college considering he was already doing ok with his progressions in the playoffs last year. 

I’ve been consistent with saying he should be used much more in RPO/ROs, but wondering if I’m overlooking a skill component to being able to do it. It might be possible he’s just not comfortable/good at running RPOs/RO type action.

[Darrell Green Fan]

5 hours ago, ODU AGGIE said:

I'm alive and well -- OK, almost well. I just had surgery on my right eye, and that slowed my down a little. TH had a rough game as did the WFT in general. The Cowboys just looked stronger across the board. We get them again after the Eagles on Sunday, and maybe we can put it on them in their house. That said, I think TH comes back with a good game against the Eagles and we go on to make the playoffs, but right now It looks pretty certain that Dallas will take the division.

 Hope your recovery goes well

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

I’ve been consistent with saying he should be used much more in RPO/ROs, but wondering if I’m overlooking a skill component to being able to do it. It might be possible he’s just not comfortable/good at running RPOs/RO type action.

 

@Skinsinparadisementioned this in the QB thread, and I've noticed it too. For a guy who has decent wheels and has shown the ability to do so, Heinicke really does seem unusually reluctant to run. It's not just on RO type of stuff...just in general. There have been a bunch of plays, some of them posted with videos and/or screenshots, where Heinicke was outside of the pocket and had a ton of green grass in front of him but didn't take it.

 

I'm not sure if it's just not actually his style, if he wants to try to be more of a pocket QB, or if he's worried about injury. We've seen people in this thread take Turner to task for not rolling Heinicke out more and using his wheels, but TH himself is the one who seems reluctant to use them, not Turner or Rivera. Rivera has said on multiple occasions that he'd like to see TH use his legs a bit more.

[wit33]

26 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

@Skinsinparadisementioned this in the QB thread, and I've noticed it too. For a guy who has decent wheels and has shown the ability to do so, Heinicke really does seem unusually reluctant to run. It's not just on RO type of stuff...just in general. There have been a bunch of plays, some of them posted with videos and/or screenshots, where Heinicke was outside of the pocket and had a ton of green grass in front of him but didn't take it.

 

I'm not sure if it's just not actually his style, if he wants to try to be more of a pocket QB, or if he's worried about injury. We've seen people in this thread take Turner to task for not rolling Heinicke out more and using his wheels, but TH himself is the one who seems reluctant to use them, not Turner or Rivera. Rivera has said on multiple occasions that he'd like to see TH use his legs a bit more.

He’s definitely skilled and adept at manipulating the pocket and scrambling, but to your point, he seems to hold back on it. 
 

I was just curious about the RPO/RO stuff directly and maybe me just assuming he’s good at that is wrong. A few weeks ago I attempted to find some college stuff of him using RPOs, there’s not much of it at all. The offense he ran seemed to not have much of it. 

[London Kev]

7 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not sure if it's just not actually his style, if he wants to try to be more of a pocket QB, or if he's worried about injury. We've seen people in this thread take Turner to task for not rolling Heinicke out more and using his wheels, but TH himself is the one who seems reluctant to use them, not Turner or Rivera. Rivera has said on multiple occasions that he'd like to see TH use his legs a bit more.

 

I've been thinking about this and have come to the conclusion that it is probably the bolded part of your post. Many people noted that he was injury prone (due to his size?) and that he had seemed to pick up little injuries in almost every game he played.

 

During the off-season he made a conscious effort to put on some muscle, which has no doubt helped him fend off injuries, but this tells me that he had been seriously thinking about how to protect himself.

 

What really convinced me was watching him when he does run. He slides really early almost every time, the one against Green Bay even cost him a TD. I think that getting injured is on his mind more than it should be and is possibly affecting his decision making when it comes to whether to run or not.

 

I realise that his amazing knack for pylon-diving contradicts this line of thinking, but I still think it's a thing. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by London Kev

[Thinking Skins]

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

@Skinsinparadisementioned this in the QB thread, and I've noticed it too. For a guy who has decent wheels and has shown the ability to do so, Heinicke really does seem unusually reluctant to run. It's not just on RO type of stuff...just in general. There have been a bunch of plays, some of them posted with videos and/or screenshots, where Heinicke was outside of the pocket and had a ton of green grass in front of him but didn't take it.

 

I'm not sure if it's just not actually his style, if he wants to try to be more of a pocket QB, or if he's worried about injury. We've seen people in this thread take Turner to task for not rolling Heinicke out more and using his wheels, but TH himself is the one who seems reluctant to use them, not Turner or Rivera. Rivera has said on multiple occasions that he'd like to see TH use his legs a bit more.

Thats an interesting point. He did make the comment in the post-game press conference back in January about being smarter because (then) he was playing as if it was his only shot whereas if he had more security he may be more cautious (and not dive for the pylon in that case). I think it was Ron or Scott who came after that and said that if he sees it he'd better dive. But that could explain his thinking. Especially if he aced his "interview" and now can have a stable career. Maybe he wants to show that he can do it with his arm more than his legs. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, wit33 said:

He’s definitely skilled and adept at manipulating the pocket and scrambling, but to your point, he seems to hold back on it. 
 

I was just curious about the RPO/RO stuff directly and maybe me just assuming he’s good at that is wrong. A few weeks ago I attempted to find some college stuff of him using RPOs, there’s not much of it at all. The offense he ran seemed to not have much of it. 

 

I talked about this on the QB thread, its been said that they do run RPO quite a bit or have at least in some games.  i can't recall where I heard it but if I recall someone who covers the team even said that Heinicke's resurgence in play, after his 4 week slump, might have been aided in them scaling back some on RPO or something like that.  I am not 100% sure about them scaling back on it but I have heard several times and posted a clip from an article that they run RPOs.

 

I watched the offense really carefully when I was in Vegas and I posted on it at the time.  I left the game more impressed with Scott Turner and a little less with Heinicke from one vantage point that i didn't notice previously.  And granted maybe it was just a function of the game plan that day.  What i noticed is Heinicke's pass plays rely heavily on play action and misdirection from the running game -- an insane amount reliance on it.  You got the TE going one way, the WR going another in motion and so many variations that confused the heck out of me watching it all unfold. 

 

In short, the running game was so confounding that Heinicke's bread and butter was to play off of that, often rolling in the opposite direction of where the defense was cued in on the run.  it's not that every play was like that but a ton of them were to my eyes.  Heinicke rolling away from where the run is supposedly leading the defense, that gives him an extra second and two to find typically a wide open receiver in the flat and then that receiver takes off for YAC.  I was impressed by how confusing all that misdirection looked -- at least to my eyes. 

 

Keim mentioned Dallas LBs were often playing just a few yards away from the ball to stop the run on Sunday.  That to me seems like the game plan to stop Heinicke -- shut down the run -- take the fear out of the defense as for all the eye candy that sets up the run by closing the edges on BOTH sides of the field.  The offense at least against the Raiders seem predicated on pushing the Raiders defense in the wrong direction for where the play is headed where either the runner or Heinicke could exploit the opposite edge where they have daylight. 

 

I mentioned during the game a Raiders fan sitting behind me kept saying the dude can move around but he can't throw, its just dink and dunk.  On many plays it did look a lot of dink and dunk.  Raiders defense pushed to the right.  Heinicke rolls to the left.  Raiders noticed they need to adjust back in the other direction but its too late because a wide open WR is on the left who is ready to take a short pass from Heinicke in the flat and has daylight to run. 

 

I know misdirection like this is a staple of most offenses but in that game it was relentless.    I forgot what team did it, maybe KC?  But I recall one team's reporters said later that the game plan was to shut down the run and keep Taylor in the pocket.  I think that's the way to stop him.    Sell out in the box to stop the run game.  Don't let him or Gibson easily get to the edges.  And let him try to beat you in the passing game albeit you are a man or two short in coverage because you got your safeties, etc hugging the box. 

 

Who knows?  But that's my layman's take from what I saw at that game.  I tried to pick on one thing which i usually do when I see a game live that I can't see as easy on TV and what i choose to watch carefully was their formations preplay and match it to what they did. 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

Thank 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I talked about this on the QB thread, its been said that they do run RPO quite a bit or have at least in some games.  i can't recall where I heard it but if I recall someone who covers the team even said that Heinicke's resurgence in play, after his 4 week slump, might have been aided in them scaling back some on RPO or something like that.  I am not 100% sure about them scaling back on it but I have heard several times and posted a clip from an article that they run RPOs.

 

Would be interested to see how many RPOs they run per game. Tough for data to differentiate a pretty determined play action and a RPO, right? It just seems like a lot is predetermined not Heineke reading the defense then making a play. Where I’m at is wondering if Heineke isn’t adept and running RPOs/RO to level of it not being predetermined before the snap. 
 

I believe there’s a chance I’ve wrongly assumed he’d be good at this, but dating back to college highlights I haven’t seen him run much RPO stuff at all. In college they’d generally just drop him back out of shotgun and let him deal. 

 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I watched the offense really carefully when I was in Vegas and I posted on it at the time.  I left the game more impressed with Scott Turner and a little less with Heinicke from one vantage point that i didn't notice previously.  And granted maybe it was just a function of the game plan that day.  What i noticed is Heinicke's pass plays rely heavily on play action and misdirection from the running game -- an insane amount reliance on it.  You got the TE going one way, the WR going another in motion and so many variations that confused the heck out of me watching it all unfold. 
 

 

I believe this benefits all QBs and most require outside of the elite. Definitely something Turner makes sure to implement and like you said, is rampant around the NFL. 
 

Having a run game has helped support Heineke, but in many games I felt they just dropped him back without much going around him and he did experience some great success and many blunders as well. Not a dude you can just drop back and deal, I think we all agree. Who is really though. That same Raider game Carr out dueled Heineke in the check down/short passing game. I think I saw a stat his first 18 passes traveled yards or gained 38 yards. 

 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In short, the running game was so confounding that Heinicke's bread and butter was to play off of that, often rolling in the opposite direction of where the defense was cued in on the run.  it's not that every play was like that but a ton of them were to my eyes.  Heinicke rolling away from where the run is supposedly leading the defense, that gives him an extra second and two to find typically a wide open receiver in the flat and then that receiver takes off for YAC.  I was impressed by how confusing all that misdirection looked -- at least to my eyes.

 

 

No doubt the run game clicking is helpful to Heineke and his limited arm and ability to run and expose edges not just him running but also in the pass game. Helping to create unique passing windows.

 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Keim mentioned Dallas LBs were often playing just a few yards away from the ball to stop the run on Sunday.  That to me seems like the game plan to stop Heinicke -- shut down the run -- take the fear out of the defense as for all the eye candy that sets up the run by closing the edges on BOTH sides of the field.  The offense at least against the Raiders seem predicated on pushing the Raiders defense in the wrong direction for where the play is headed where either the runner or Heinicke could exploit the opposite edge where they have daylight.

 

I walk away in some games feeling the talent or players didn’t show up in meaningful moments and others where the opposition had a better game plan, the Dallas game I felt they had a better plan which allowed them to be ultra aggressive throughout. Not to say the Dallas talent isn’t real on defense, but it seemed to combined with having a better plan. 
 

Fascinated to see how their next meeting goes and the adjustments made. 

 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I

 

I know misdirection like this is a staple of most offenses but in that game it was relentless.    I forgot what team did it, maybe KC?  But I recall one team's reporters said later that the game plan was to shut down the run and keep Taylor in the pocket.  I think that's the way to stop him.    Sell out in the box to stop the run game.  Don't let him or Gibson easily get to the edges.  And let him try to beat you in the passing game albeit you are a man or two short in coverage because you got your safeties, etc hugging the box. 
 

 

Ya, I’m on side that most of QBs require all that many point out Heineke needs due to a lack of arm strength. Too many examples of competent starters getting paid franchise dollars needing a run game, even with a blue chip arm.

 

With that said, I’m not saying talent doesn’t matter, or provide a higher ceiling or easier throws for the competent guys. My hope with Heineke was his legs would mitigate the gap in arm talent with competent starters, but I haven’t seen enough of him running to say he’s accomplishing that. 

 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Who knows?  But that's my layman's take from what I saw at that game.  I tried to pick on one thing which i usually do when I see a game live that I can't see as easy on TV and what i choose to watch carefully was their formations preplay and match it to what they did. 

 

 

 

Great break down! 

Edited December 16, 2021 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Would be interested to see how many RPOs they run per game. Would be tough for data to differentiate a pretty determined play action and a RPO, right? It just seems like a lot is predetermined not Heineke reading the defense then making a play. Where I’m at is wondering if Heineke isn’t adept and running RPOs/RO to level of it not being predetermined before the snap. 

 

Yeah its really hard i think to spot an RPO, checking out of a run or pass based on what the defense is giving them.  So I assume whomever is talking RPOs are hearing about it from the coaches.   I got no clue how many they run.  But I've heard multiple times they run their share of them.  And then I could have sworn one beat guy say they actually lessened the amount of RPOs during the 4 game win streak.  The reason why it stuck in my head was because it hit me counter intuitive.

 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

 

I believe this benefits all QBs and most require outside of the elite. Definitely something Turner makes sure to implement and like you said, is rampant around the NFL. 
 

Having a run game has helped support Heineke, but in many games I felt they just dropped him back without much going around him and he did experience some great success and many blunders as well. Not a dude you can just drop back and deal, I think we all agree. Who is really though. That same Raider game Carr out dueled Heineke in the check down/short passing game. I think I saw a stat his first 18 passes traveled yards or gained 38 yards. 

 

 

The defense did a nice job playing back to stop the Raiders deep game which is normally prolific.   Carr typically is the opposite of a checkdown Charlie but that's what he did in that game to try to offset the coverage he was getting.  Carr even whined about that some after the game as to our defense clamping down on their deep game -- cover 2, cover 3, etc.   

 

I think the point as for having the running game cooking requires some nuance.   Of course every QB benefits from a running game cooking including the elite guys.  But sometimes in games some defenses will oversell to stop the run and dare the opposing QB to beat them.

 

Our defense didn't for example dare Carr to beat them.  They did the opposite.  Their goal was to stop him.  Carr isn't elite.  He's in that 10-14 range.  I do think teams can get away with selling out to stop the run like Dallas did last week.  i don't think it needs to be an elite QB to exploit having the strong safety play in the box for most of the game and the LBs crowding the line of scrimmage.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

No doubt the run game clicking is helpful to Heineke and his limited arm and ability to run and expose edges not just him running but also in the pass game. Helping to create unique passing windows.

 

 

That to me is the operative point and makes Heinicke more dependant on the run game than the typical QB.    Non elite -- top 10-15 kind of guys for example.  Matt Ryan with 6 games where he threw for 280 yards or more, most of which was 300 plus.  Carr with 7 games with 280 plus yards, most of which was 300 plus.  Heinicke with 2 of them, 1 of which was 300 yards.   They have plenty of games where the offense is on their shoulders.  With Taylor, not too often.

 

The reason why I highlight the 10-15 type is while I get the pessimism from some (albeit IMO its overstated) that we have almost no shot to find a top 10 QB, I don't think its a wild pipe dream to find a 10-14 type.  Lol, Loverro in a Sheehan recent podcast said its the WFT, they don't do QBs as if its part of the culture here not to have a top QB.  I get the pessimism.  But even if we shoot for a smaller dream, i don't think its crazy that we can find the next Derrick Carr or Matt Ryan, etc. 

 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Ya, I’m on side that most of QBs require all that many point out Heineke needs due to a lack of arm strength. Too many examples of competent starters getting paid franchise dollars needing a run game, even with a blue chip arm.

 

 

I'd go as far as saying they ALL do.  So its not about having a run game or not.   But what if a defense goes full out to stop that run game?  I am not talking a defense playing a balanced game where lets say their stud MLBs can stop a run game in its tracks like Carolina did to us years back.  I am talking about them risking having less guys in coverage to stop the run game.  Teams typically don't dare to do that even to 10-15 type QBs for most of a game with the exception of if that team has a killer unstoppable type of RB like Derrick Henry, etc.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

 My hope with Heineke was his legs would mitigate the gap in arm talent with competent starters, but I haven’t seen enough of him running to say he’s accomplishing that. 

 

 

 

Me too.   I admit with his lack of arm strength coupled with far from perfect accuracy and far from perfect decision making -- I think the dude has just about zero chance to be a top half in the league QB.    The only shot for me for Taylor to be that kind of QB is to showcase his wheels.  If he's not going to do it for whatever reason, i think he's making his bed to ultimately be a backup and spot starter in the league. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Lol, Loverro in a Sheehan recent podcast said its the WFT, they don't do QBs as if its part of the culture here not to have a top QB

Yeah, but Loverro is, a lot of the times, and incompetent jerk who's trying to make a "funny" more than be accurate.

 

I get his point that we DON'T do QBs around, here, but that's not due to lack of effort:

 

Since Theisman:

1984 3rd round - Jay Schoeder (remember, we still had Theisman playing well at this point.)

1986 6th round  - Mark Rypien

1986 Signed Doug Williams. ** Doug was not signed to be the starter.  But he had starting experience with Tampa. 

1990 4th round - Cary Conclin

1994 1st round (3rd overall) Heath Shuler (This is where it starts to get good..)

1994 7th round - Gus Frerotte

1999 Traded for Brad Johnson

2000 Signed Jeff George ** I THINK this is the only real big-name Free Agent they signed.  All the others have been drafted or traded.  

2001 4th round - Sage Rosenfels

2002 1st Round - Patrick Ramsey

2004 Trade for Mark Brunnel

2005 1st (Plus trade) Jason Campbell

2007 7th Jordan Palmer (FWIW)

2008 7th Colt Brennan

2010 Trade for McNabb

2012 1st (2nd overall + traded picks) Griffin

2012 4th "Kurt" Cousins

2016 6th Nate Sudfeld

2018 Trade for Alex Smith

2019 Trade for Case Keenum

2019 1st Dwayne Haskins

 

I bolded the 1st - 4th round picks, a couple notable FAs and trades.  

 

A better way of putting it is we have a culture of attempting to find a QB and failing spectacularly.  

 

[ODU AGGIE]

23 hours ago, wit33 said:

Off topic, but do you know if Heineke has run much RPO/RO in his career? I’ve looked at his college highlights and there seems to be a small amount, but for most part he’s in gun and dropping back. 
 

Just curious if he’s not comfortable with RPO/RO stuff and that’s why it’s not being featured. 

As best I recall, in college they did run some RPO, but most of the offense just came from the spread with TH making the reads and moving the chains. They also ran the read option, and TH was good at reading the DE, especially near the goal line. I remember quite a few times when the DE would crash leaving no protection on the edge, and TH would almost walk into the end zone for the TD.

A little off this subject, but I will also address TH sliding a lot. He was coached up pretty heavily on that at ODU as I recall. The offense was built around TH and they wanted him to avoid unnecessary contact. He would either slide (in the middle of the field) or take it out of bounds if he was on the sideline. I think that has just been ingrained into him to negate the possibility of injury.

[PartyPosse]

8 minutes ago, ODU AGGIE said:

As best I recall, in college they did run some RPO, but most of the offense just came from the spread with TH making the reads and moving the chains. They also ran the read option, and TH was good at reading the DE, especially near the goal line. I remember quite a few times when the DE would crash leaving no protection on the edge, and TH would almost walk into the end zone for the TD.

A little off this subject, but I will also address TH sliding a lot. He was coached up pretty heavily on that at ODU as I recall. The offense was built around TH and they wanted him to avoid unnecessary contact. He would either slide (in the middle of the field) or take it out of bounds if he was on the sideline. I think that has just been ingrained into him to negate the possibility of injury.

He's got one of the smoothest slides around, I'll give him that. It's like he's on ice.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

A better way of putting it is we have a culture of attempting to find a QB and failing spectacularly.  

 

You missed a key word in my post “top” QB.

 

He wasn’t saying they don’t shoot for QBs. He was saying having a QB among the top ones in the league hasn’t been a WFT thing for a long time.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

You missed a key word in my post “top” QB.

 

He wasn’t saying they don’t shoot for QBs. He was saying having a QB among the top ones in the league hasn’t been a WFT thing for a long time.

No, I didn't.  And I listened to the podcast anyway, so I had the context.

 

It doesn't matter, he's still wrong.  They've gone after a top QB bunches of times, and failed each time.  

 

Top QBs also don't ONLY come from a top 5 pick.  We've tried:

Top 5 pick twice: Shuler and Griffin

1st round QB 3 times: Ramsey, JC and Haskins

Big name QB coming off of a good season three times: George, McNabb and Alex Smith (People forget McNabb was actually really good in 2009.)

 

We've traded up twice to get a prospect: Griffin and JC.  (I get very few people liked the JC pick to begin with, but Gibbs liked him and he he through he could be the answer...)

 

Lovero is just flat wrong.  We have tried.  We've tried just about everything, including the stupid owner picking a guy from his son's HS.  (NOTE: they weren't there at the same time.)  

 

They also tried (and failed) to trade for Stafford, if you want to put that in the mix. 

 

Lovero's point was they have a culture of settling for not having a top QB.  

 

My point is that is factually incorrect.  

 

They're just stupid and unlucky.  

[NoCalMike]

How is his knee doing?

[petey hodge]

The reason why many of us Love TH.. and why many of us Despise TH is that he is just like us...   Not big.  Not a beastly specimen.  But an everyday guy of average build and stature.  A Lionel Messi... or a Stephen Curry.  A just-a-normal person who excels in a sport where genetic beasts roam (Looking at you DK Metcalf!).  Not our caped hero like Superman or William Wallace who stands seven feet tall and shoots balls of fire from his arse...  Not the guy on our childhood posters of Redskins Heroes, for sure.  And I get it... that's why he is either loved or not loved.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No, I didn't.  And I listened to the podcast anyway, so I had the context.

 

It doesn't matter, he's still wrong.  They've gone after a top QB bunches of times, and failed each time.  

 

 

Maybe I am missing it, what was his quote about them not chasing QBs?  I didn't hear that.  It would shock me, really.  But if you got a quote, yeah I'd be interested.   Like Loverro or not like Loverro, I think its tough to argue he's stupid.  He's written books about the history of this team and can be encycolpedia reciting facts.  For somehow him of all people missing 101 WFT stuff that any NFL fan would just about know is hard for me to believe.

 

The culture of settling for below average QB play, I heard that the first time but I didn't take the point the way you did.   Mainly because I've made the same point plenty of times - and it has nothing to do with them not swinging for QBs.  That's an entirely different point.  Clearly, anyone who follows this team is aware that they swing.  It's that whatever we have in hand we got to make the most of it.  We don't have steaks so we pretend our burgers are special.    And hope for the best in it even if it doesn't end up hot.  Todd Collins some were jazzed about for some time.  Gus.   Heck the 1.25 games that worked out for Haskins in his rookie year.  Campbell's 6-2 start under Zorn, etc.  

 

We, along with Cleveland, some would also say the Lions (but I think they broke the streak with Stafford) are arguably the joke of the NFL at the Qb spot for years.  And the punch line isn't that they don't swing for it -- the fact that they indeed do swing for it is a big part of the punchline. 

 

15 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

They're just stupid and unlucky.  

 

95% stupid.  5% unlucky.

 

But regardless, I'll let it go, its meaningless.  If this is partly about taking a dig at Loverro.  It's cool.  i don't care.  I can take Loverro or leave him.    if you want to have the last word and take another dig at him, its cool.  I won't respond. 😀

Edited December 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, petey hodge said:

The reason why many of us Love TH.. and why many of us Despise TH is that he is just like us...   Not big.  Not a beastly specimen.  But an everyday guy of average build and stature.  A Lionel Messi... or a Stephen Curry.  A just-a-normal person who excels in a sport where genetic beasts roam (Looking at you DK Metcalf!).  Not our caped hero like Superman or William Wallace who stands seven feet tall and shoots balls of fire from his arse...  Not the guy on our childhood posters of Redskins Heroes, for sure.  And I get it... that's why he is either loved or not loved.

 

 

I think he's loved by just about all.  As far as these debates here, its not about anyone not loving Heinicke, the dude.  As I've said its like not loving Rudy.   He's lovable as heck.   

 

I think it's just a contentious debate among each other about whether we think he's the solution for our QB woes.   

 

And its dance that many of us are familiair with.  In our quest for a franchise QB for a few decades or so it hasn't  been a straight line easy read from the jump.  As we know, it's not been  that each dude that ends up not being the guy that it was entirely evident from the jump.  We've had plenty of short sample teases.  I recall those Qb threads well.  Plenty of temporary excitement about guys who are now considered "meh' or busts in retrospect.  

 

Also plenty of accusations at each juncture of people being too cynical where we need to let go of the past because this time is different.  In that sense, Heinicke if anything is almost the perfect culmination of all the QB arguments over the years.  

 

For us fans, I think a lot of us just want it to play out.  That's how I feel.  My gut right now is that he isn't the guy but heck if he burns it up for 4 games, etc, my mind is open to change. 

 

As for his physical traits, if the dude had just low end base line arm strength, I'd be much more easily swayed.  It's not that he isn't a genetic beast -- its that its tough to come up with even one comparable in the NFL to that arm as far as top half of the league QBs.  Kyler Murray is short, not a big guy at all, smaller than Taylor but he has a rocket of an arm.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 hours ago, petey hodge said:

The reason why many of us Love TH.. and why many of us Despise TH is that he is just like us...   Not big.  Not a beastly specimen.  But an everyday guy of average build and stature.  A Lionel Messi... or a Stephen Curry.  A just-a-normal person who excels in a sport where genetic beasts roam (Looking at you DK Metcalf!).  Not our caped hero like Superman or William Wallace who stands seven feet tall and shoots balls of fire from his arse...  Not the guy on our childhood posters of Redskins Heroes, for sure.  And I get it... that's why he is either loved or not loved.

Nah, I think everyone loves him because of all those things.  I think some of you love him and exaggerate his potential because of those things.  However many of us don't think that's enough to be a franchise QB and apparently that's considered 'hating'.  

Edited December 17, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[wit33]

40 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think he's loved by just about all.  As far as these debates here, its not about anyone not loving Heinicke, the dude.  As I've said its like not loving Rudy.   He's lovable as heck.   

 

I think it's just a contentious debate among each other about whether we think he's the solution for our QB woes.   

 

And its dance that many of us are familiair with.  In our quest for a franchise QB for a few decades or so it hasn't  been a straight line easy read from the jump.  As we know, it's not been  that each dude that ends up not being the guy that it was entirely evident from the jump.  We've had plenty of short sample teases.  I recall those Qb threads well.  Plenty of temporary excitement about guys who are now considered "meh' or busts in retrospect.  

 

Also plenty of accusations at each juncture of people being too cynical where we need to let go of the past because this time is different.  In that sense, Heinicke if anything is almost the perfect culmination of all the QB arguments over the years.  

 

For us fans, I think a lot of us just want it to play out.  That's how I feel.  My gut right now is that he isn't the guy but heck if he burns it up for 4 games, etc, my mind is open to change. 

 

As for his physical traits, if the dude had just low end base line arm strength, I'd be much more easily swayed.  It's not that he isn't a genetic beast -- its that its tough to come up with even one comparable in the NFL to that arm as far as top half of the league QBs.  Kyler Murray is short, not a big guy at all, smaller than Taylor but he has a rocket of an arm.

One thing I can guarantee, if you called Heineke “a Rudy” that’d be an insult to the dude lol.