Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

Not at all man. I attempted to avoid this feeling with my first post response. 
 

I’m challenging your logic while also challenging my own beliefs. Just curious of your process of reaching the conclusion about Heineke. I understand your process a bit more. Much appreciated. 

I've been using the expression that his arm is "out of air", going into the bye week.

[Thinking Skins]

The question I've always had (and we've seen examples in the positive of this) is why can't a decent backup QB whose not considered a starter mainly because of his arm strength just improve his arm strength. And what's the upper limit on this? I think Rogers and Brady are examples of this. There are a lot of links about TRX Training and how it improves arm strength and these guys used it. So what if Heinicke were to use this and suddenly could add some zip? I don't know because I wouldn't count on this but I wonder why its never discussed

[ThomasRoane]

42 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The question I've always had (and we've seen examples in the positive of this) is why can't a decent backup QB whose not considered a starter mainly because of his arm strength just improve his arm strength. And what's the upper limit on this? I think Rogers and Brady are examples of this. There are a lot of links about TRX Training and how it improves arm strength and these guys used it. So what if Heinicke were to use this and suddenly could add some zip? I don't know because I wouldn't count on this but I wonder why its never discussed

 

He can certainly improve in the offseason.  However, the greatest gains come from live game experience.  The more the game will slow down for him (or any QB) the more confident you see that QB become.  I thought he was really on that front foot and driving the ball.  There were even a couple where he couldn't step into his throw and yet generated enough torque to fit the ball in some tight spots.

 

All this talk about the tough catches for Gibson and McLaurin comes from incomplete analysis.  Aside from Terry, who can consistently beat their man?  There are going to be some tight throws.  Terry is going to be bracketed with a DB and a safety until another consistent receiving threat materializes.  I'm over Samuels.  In my mind he doesn't love football.  If he needed surgery he should have got that taken care of long ago.  Dyami Brown is soft.  Humphries usually needs a pick or a rub route to get open.  Dax has some potential but is not speedy.  Good route runner.  Bates? Who knows?  We need to see what he can do.  (Really need Thomas back)  TH only has one player who he can trust to win.  When the game is on the line, who are you going to throw to down there?  TH picked McLaurin and it paid off.  Cause he's a baller.  

 

I'd really like to see what TH could do with all the weapons we thought this team would have and with a healthy Oline.  Especially if he had a running game to lean on a little.  I think Scott needs to focus more on power and play action.  I said so at the beginning of the season.  They finally did so vs Tampa and that's a good recipe.  Love having TH out on the edge running boots.  He's really good there.  He can play from the pocket as we have seen if needed.  But that boot game coupled with a good running game really puts a defense in a bad spot.  

Edited November 16, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[Thinking Skins]

12 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

All this talk about the tough catches for Gibson and McLaurin comes from incomplete analysis.  Aside from Terry, who can consistently beat their man?  There are going to be some tight throws.  Terry is going to be bracketed with a DB and a safety until another consistent receiving threat materializes.  I'm over Samuels.  In my mind he doesn't love football.  If he needed surgery he should have got that taken care of long ago.  Dyami Brown is soft.  Humphries usually needs a pick or a rub route to get open.  Dax has some potential but is not speedy.  Good route runner.  Bates? Who knows?  We need to see what he can do.  (Really need Thomas back)  TH only has one player who he can trust to win.  When the game is on the line, who are you going to throw to down there?  TH picked McLaurin and it paid off.  Cause he's a baller.  

 

You left out Sims and RSJ but good analysis. 

[skinny21]

11 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

You left out Sims and RSJ but good analysis. 

And McKissick (but I agree with the premise).

[Dan T.]

Let's not fool ourselves.  There are throws that Taylor Heinicke simply cannot make because he doesn't have the velocity to make them.  No amount of game experience is going to change that to any significant degree.  The key for him is recognizing his limitations and not try to make those throws in game situations.  He's been, for the most part, good at that, and he's is getting better at it each week.  His challenge is to show he can survive in the league without a cannon. So far so good.

[ThomasRoane]

21 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

You left out Sims and RSJ but good analysis. 

 

Yeah, in my mind RSJ got hurt and is out probably for a while.  RSJ did fine for us.  He wasn't the jump ball threat that Logan Thomas was though.  Not consistently.   

 

I really like Cam Sims but the injury this year set him back.  He doesn't seem like a guy who can win on his own.  That hamstring is probably in the back of his mind cause he doesn't look explosive.  He was never really fast but he was more physical.  Hopefully, he'll start to trust his health and open it up a bit.  

 

Why can't this team ever seem to have more than one major receiving threat at a time?  How long has it been?  Monk-Clark I think is the last time we had two threats that you could count on week to week (Garcon was dependable but DJax wasn't).  It's not for lack of trying; whether draft or free agency.  This team can't seem to get that other threat and if they do they can't seem to keep two on the field at once.  

[ExoDus84]

11 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

There are throws that Taylor Heinicke simply cannot make because he doesn't have the velocity to make them.

 

Taylor giving his all when he throws a 5 yard checkdown.

 

[ThomasRoane]

16 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

And McKissick (but I agree with the premise).

 

I wasn't counting the backs.  But the fact that so many targets go to backs is a real indicator of how little the staff trusts their receivers.  

[FuriousD]

34 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

  I'm over Samuels.  In my mind he doesn't love football.  If he needed surgery he should have got that taken care of long ago.  Dyami Brown is soft.  

So, I recall one of the things RR stated around draft time was the need to identify guys who REALLY like the game with a desire to play at the next level.  Given RR knows him, I would be surprised if Samuels felt that way.  And regarding Brown, I would suggest that 99% of these kids coming out of college are "soft" for the pro game.  They all need a year of conditioning and dieting for the pro game.  Just my take...

[ThomasRoane]

1 minute ago, FuriousD said:

So, I recall one of the things RR stated around draft time was the need to identify guys who REALLY like the game with a desire to play at the next level.  Given RR knows him, I would be surprised if Samuels felt that way.  And regarding Brown, I would suggest that 99% of these kids coming out of college are "soft" for the pro game.  They all need a year of conditioning and dieting for the pro game.  Just my take...

 

Hope you're right and I'm wrong.  Gibson is playing with a stress fracture.  Samuels has yet to play more than a couple of plays.  He gives me Desean Jackson flashbacks.  Who I consider a mercenary.  Desean would suit up for primetime games but it seemed like most times he'd have some soft tissue injury that kept him out.  Maybe Samuels is trying to lengthen his career?  In hindsight, shoulda went after DJ Moore!

 

Ref Brown I consider McLaurin as the standard.  If Dyami takes the hit that Terry took then he's probably still lying on the field at FedEx.  Hopefully, he proves me wrong as well or the WFT just pissed away a valuable 3rd round pick.  

[Dan T.]

A groin injury is debilitating for any kind of football movement.  It just is.  You can't play through it, like you can with some other injuries.

 

It's frustrating that Samuel apparently can't get healthy.  But I'm not ready to write him off as a slacker.  Does he have any history that points to that? As FuriousD mentions above, Rivera - who wants guys who really want to play - knew Samuel in Carolina and chose to bring him here.

 

We signed him for three years.  We can still get two and a quarter years of service out of him.

[skinfan2k]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:42 PM, mojo said:

Is this sarcasm?

not at all.  This line is playing like a top 5 line.  He is taking way too many sacks  

[goskins10]

 

 

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

He can certainly improve in the offseason.  However, the greatest gains come from live game experience.  The more the game will slow down for him (or any QB) the more confident you see that QB become.  I thought he was really on that front foot and driving the ball.  There were even a couple where he couldn't step into his throw and yet generated enough torque to fit the ball in some tight spots.

 

All this talk about the tough catches for Gibson and McLaurin comes from incomplete analysis.  Aside from Terry, who can consistently beat their man?  There are going to be some tight throws.  Terry is going to be bracketed with a DB and a safety until another consistent receiving threat materializes.  I'm over Samuels.  In my mind he doesn't love football.  If he needed surgery he should have got that taken care of long ago.  Dyami Brown is soft.  Humphries usually needs a pick or a rub route to get open.  Dax has some potential but is not speedy.  Good route runner.  Bates? Who knows?  We need to see what he can do.  (Really need Thomas back)  TH only has one player who he can trust to win.  When the game is on the line, who are you going to throw to down there?  TH picked McLaurin and it paid off.  Cause he's a baller.  

 

So what is incomplete about balls consistently so high receivers have to stretch high to get them or even get off thier feet? No one is saying there will not be tight throws. Had he gotten that last ball to Terry down just a few more inches terry can cover himself more than he did and the defender gets only a glancing blow instead of the almost straight on hit. There is nothing incomplete about that. it's QB 101. Tight windows are one thing, throwing high is another. 

 

Back to the tight windows - because I agree we do not have many WRs who get separation on thier own. BTW: How is you all forgot DeAndre Carter? Dude is flat out balling. Love how he caught that pass that was tipped.  There are not many WRs who can on a regular basis. The problem is Taylor does not have the arm strength to throw a laser in that tight spot. The way to make up for that is he has to anticipate more and get the ball out quicker. That was the main point of improvement I saw in the Tampa game - that and Scott finally realized we could have a running game but that's a different topic. 

 

I disagree with writing Curtis Samuel off. A groin injury is one of the most painful and most unpredictable injuries, especially for a WR who has to drive off that groin to make cuts. Some heal very quickly and nicely while other times they linger. Surgery does not always solve the issue either. He wanted to play this year so he tried. I do believe it's time to shut it down completely and look to next year. If the same happens then Ok he is a full bust let him go. But healthy he could easily be a poor mans Deebo Samuel (please all read that as not as good as Deebo but can provide some of the same flexibility.) And saying he has no heart for football has zero basis in fact. 

 

After QB WR is the next hardest position to learn. In college the route trees are not complex at all. Most have no choices. They run a route and that's it. In the NFL they add choices and decisions and new route combinations. I would not confuse Brown's hesitancy in running his routes with him being soft. Most WRs need at least a year to understand thier responsibilities

 

 

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I'd really like to see what TH could do with all the weapons we thought this team would have and with a healthy Oline.  Especially if he had a running game to lean on a little.  I think Scott needs to focus more on power and play action.  I said so at the beginning of the season.  They finally did so vs Tampa and that's a good recipe.  Love having TH out on the edge running boots.  He's really good there.  He can play from the pocket as we have seen if needed.  But that boot game coupled with a good running game really puts a defense in a bad spot.  

 

 

I too liked seeing him get outside the pocket on called bootlegs. Not sure why Scott has not done that more and still only did so a few times against Tampa. He did commit more to the run game which will do nothing but help Taylor. I hope Taylor has found his rhythm and Scott is learning how to call game better. Nothing would make me happier. Starts with Carolina. 

[method man]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I've said that for weeks as his passes sailed higher, shorter and less accurate as the weeks passed, then said that he would look better after the bye, because of the rest for his arm.

 

I think there is a callousing of strength that occurs when you do something a million times consistently and Heinicke doesn't have that and it shows as the season wears on. I think he'll have a stronger arm next season, thanks to being a starter for an entire season, but it will wear out again this year.

 

I make the same point about Gibson playing running back. It's a brutally physical position and you take a pounding that he doesn't have the calloused conditioning to endore. 

To your point, Bram noted on Keim’s pod that Heinicke looked the sharpest he had looked in a while during practice last week. Could have been an arm issue but could have also been an injury elsewhere that healed up during the bye

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I wasn't counting the backs.  But the fact that so many targets go to backs is a real indicator of how little the staff trusts their receivers.  

Ah, my bad, missed that.  I don’t disagree with your second sentence, but I’d argue it could be a few factors.  TH turning down other reads, the backs presenting better mismatches, arm strength concerns, coverages used, Turner using the pass game (partially) in place of the run game, etc.  

Hard to tell without more info, but you could certainly make the case none of the receivers have really taken the bull by the horns to be that 2nd receiver.  @goskins10 makes a good point about Carter though…

[TK]

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Yeah, in my mind RSJ got hurt and is out probably for a while.  RSJ did fine for us.  He wasn't the jump ball threat that Logan Thomas was though.  Not consistently.   

 

I really like Cam Sims but the injury this year set him back.  He doesn't seem like a guy who can win on his own.  That hamstring is probably in the back of his mind cause he doesn't look explosive.  He was never really fast but he was more physical.  Hopefully, he'll start to trust his health and open it up a bit.  

 

Why can't this team ever seem to have more than one major receiving threat at a time?  How long has it been?  Monk-Clark I think is the last time we had two threats that you could count on week to week (Garcon was dependable but DJax wasn't).  It's not for lack of trying; whether draft or free agency.  This team can't seem to get that other threat and if they do they can't seem to keep two on the field at once.  

Garcon/Jackson. Jackson was wildly inconsistent, as he has been his entire career. But Garçon was consistent enough for the both of them. After Moss and now McLaurin he might be the best receiver we’ve had here in the last 25 years. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by KDawg

[method man]

JD McKissic is a player that this team absolutely needs to resign. He is either reason 1 or 2 for why this team has been able to move the ball despite the lack of overall talent. He had nearly 1K all purpose yards last season and is on a similar trajectory this season. Patterson isn’t the guy to replace his role. McKissic absolutely must be resigned

[London Kev]

2 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

not at all.  This line is playing like a top 5 line.  He is taking way too many sacks  

 

I'm a big fan of the fat boys up front and loved the way they've played with all the changes, but top 5? They gave up five sacks and eleven TFLs against the Bucs, you can't blame that all on Heinicke. For comparison, we had no sacks and no TFL vs their O-line.

Edited November 16, 2021 by London Kev

[ThomasRoane]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Ah, my bad, missed that.  I don’t disagree with your second sentence, but I’d argue it could be a few factors.  TH turning down other reads, the backs presenting better mismatches, arm strength concerns, coverages used, Turner using the pass game (partially) in place of the run game, etc.  

Hard to tell without more info, but you could certainly make the case none of the receivers have really taken the bull by the horns to be that 2nd receiver.  @goskins10 makes a good point about Carter though…

 

I like Carter.  I think he's definitely trending up.  I confess I haven't watched him when he's not being targeted.  It would be interesting to see if he is winning consistently.  

 

Regardless, when the offense gets to the redzone and space is condensed, it sure would be nice to have a player that can go up and get some high balls.  Every good offense seems to have that.  Man, they really miss Logan Thomas!

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

He is taking way too many sacks  

 

Go and re-watch at least the 1st half of the game. You will see two where the defenders went right through our O line and one was not touched at all. Then come back and tell me how many sacks TH has taken because he held on to the ball too long. 

[Dan T.]

This is fun:

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

4 hours ago, method man said:

To your point, Bram noted on Keim’s pod that Heinicke looked the sharpest he had looked in a while during practice last week. Could have been an arm issue but could have also been an injury elsewhere that healed up during the bye

This is interesting because in the offseason word was that TH looked bad in practice because most of his plays came from broken plays which are not the focus of practice. If he's getting better at simply running what's called then it could signify improvement for the rest of the year

[skinny21]

8 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

This is fun:

 

 

Not only is that hilarious, but I love how Flowers nonchalantly pulls Taylor’s head to his chest…

 

like a mom with her baby or something.