Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You were about as cold as ice on Winston, until people started talking about Darnold being alright.

 

My main beef with Winston was watching him on Hard Knocks years back.  He didn't strike me as a bad guy but struck me a bit immature and arrogant.   Then we got the Uber incident piling on to his college stuff.  So i wondered about his makeup and still do.

 

As a talent, I got some concerns about Winston but he'd be a dude i could see rolling the dice on.  He has a strong arm, just about the perfect size/physique to survive punishment, and I can deal with turnover issues if you produce and he did even in his rocky final year as a starter -- 5000 yards, 33TDs.  His worst year production wise had numbers almost identical to Darnold's best.    IMO there is more clay to work with Winston as to turning things around.

 

But to me the key point is you can have Winston for free.  What makes Darnold so special that we'd waste potentially multiple picks on the dude.  Heck for example lets say its just the 2nd rounder for Darnold.  That could be a dude like Rondale Moore, Brevin Jordan, etc.  We can use a playmaker.    So the Darnold stuff is ridiculous to me.  Maybe if he were a FA i could see it but trading serious capital for him?   But off my soap box...  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Jericho said:

That's the on good thing about Winston. Of all the "reclamation" type QBs, the only thing he costs is money. And if you want to sign him, outbidding the Saints (who are way over the cap and also passed him over for Taysom Hill last season) shouldn't be hard. If I had my druthers, he might not be option 1, but he won't cost drafts picks like Darnold, Mariota, Wentz, or some of the other mediocrities (and while I can't buy the claimed asking price on these guys, it'll still likely be somewhat high). If I'm buying a lottery ticket, I'd prefer not to spend that much on it.

 

lol, maybe @Koolblue13 is right that all this Darnold talk has really got me to warm up to Winston.  I read posts like the one above and I am thinking right on.  The logic is 100% spot on.   I wasn't there on Winston even a few days back, though I didn't dislike him but was lukewarm at best.  But this Darnold talk is making me appreciate Winston.  i think I am now a Winston convert.  😀. Not that Winston is a top choice.  I'd rather trade up in the draft and or get Carr if the price isn't nuts.  But in FA if that's what we are left with, I could be talked into Winston for sure. 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, skinzplay said:

I posted this elsewhere, but might as well put it here too since it's relevant:

I'd rather roll with Henicke and Allen, and continue to build around the QB position, as opposed to give up the resources we would need to do that building. RR is putting together a real team, not a group of look-at-me individuals, and these guys enjoy playing for one another. I loved the way the defensive and offensive players were so damn excited (and clearly not the least bit surprised) at Henicke's play in that wildcard game. It says a lot. A fully conditioned Heinicke (full off-season training regimen), I think, would be better for this team than a Carr or Mariota. 

 

If Lance, for some reason, is still sitting there at 19, maybe we snag him, sit him for a year and let him learn under Zampese. The man can teach. If A. Smith is still around in some capacity, that's another tutor for him.

__________________________________________

Didn't have this in my original post, but just read it in a piece by Keim, quoting RR on giving up a lot in a trade:

 

"But I don't think that's something I would want to do. If you get what you want, but you don't have what you need, then you create problems. If you can't protect the quarterback, or if you don't have playmakers around him, then what's the good of having that guy?"

 

 

 

Mariota I can agree on for the most part, but trying to say Carr isn't an upgrade over Heinicke and Allen is ludicrous IMO. And I'm not some hardcore Carr person; I'm pretty lukewarm on him and it would depend on what we'd have to give up. But he'd be an obvious upgrade over what we have (outside of those that watched Heinicke play 5 quarters and have decided he's the second coming).

Edited February 6, 2021 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Andre The Giant]

 

[skinzplay]

33 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Mariota I can agree on for the most part, but trying to say Carr isn't an upgrade over Heinicke and Allen is ludicrous IMO. And I'm not some hardcore Carr person; I'm pretty lukewarm on him and it would depend on what we'd have to give up. But he'd be an obvious upgrade over what we have (outside of those that watched Heinicke play 5 quarters and have decided he's the second coming).

 

What I said: I'd rather roll with Henicke and Allen, and continue to build around the QB position, as opposed to give up the resources we would need to do that building.

What you said: And I'm not some hardcore Carr person; I'm pretty lukewarm on him and it would depend on what we'd have to give up.

 

We are not actually in disagreement. And look at that, hoss, I didn't even call your perspective ludicrous.

[Malapropismic Depository]

QB's talked about, that I do NOT want :

 

Wentz

Prescott

Newton

 

[joeken24]

On 2/4/2021 at 10:35 PM, Anselmheifer said:

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. 

No sure why that posted so many times. You got me.....lol

[Malapropismic Depository]

Fans, don't get your hopes up this offseason

 

 

1 minute ago, joeken24 said:

No sure why that posted so many times. You got me.....lol

 

Thought  you were the "Repeatedly Repeated for Emphasis" kind of guy.

[kingdaddy]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I looked up next generation stats.  As I've been saying Darnold was one of the least aggressive QBs, his average completion yards was near the bottom of the league, yet his completion rate was one of the worst. 

 

He's near the bottom at nearly every category.  Only thing I'll give him is Haskins has him beat probably as the worst last year. 

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#completionPercentageAboveExpectation

 

 

 

Payton has gone on the record multiple times they want Winston back, so I am gathering they will at a minimum try to do it.  They are adept at moving cap to future years.  Knowing them, I doubt the Brees move is the end of them finding cap room. 

 

So at a minimum they will be part of the bidding war it seems if there is one.  That's a loaded roster so if I am Winston I'd want to return. 

 

But yeah I am ok with Winston if that's how they do this in the off season.  He's not my top FA pick if we go the FA route, but i am ok with him.  I'd easily take him over guys ike Dalton, Brissett, etc. 

 

 

Wonder if taking a year off and watching Brees has helped Winston at all? You would think it had to. ..maybe Winston could be our next Doug Wiliams? RR should know Winston very well....

[Malapropismic Depository]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

Wonder if taking a year off and watching Brees has helped Winston at all?

 

I was wondering that too. But I had mixed feelings.

On one hand, when Brees was hurt, they had Swiss Army Knife guy start instead of WInston.

On the other hand, in a playoff battle between Brees and Brady, it was Winston who threw the first TD pass.

On the other, other hand, throwing TD's is what Winston does...the problem is INT's as well. So I guess if you left him in there long enough he would have probably thrown a few picks.

Hence the fact, they start Hill instead of Winston, when Brees got McRibbed

[Darth Tater]

Biggest issue I have with Winston is that the Bucs this year are not that much better than the Bucs from last year except in the turnover department. There is also the fact that if we'd probably have won 3-5 more games if we weren't a TO machine at times. Of course, I prefer most of the FA to anybody we'd have to give more than a 3 to get.

[RWJ]

16 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Fans, don't get your hopes up this offseason

 

 

 

Thought  you were the "Repeatedly Repeated for Emphasis" kind of guy.

We have all heard that Ron wants to win now.  Totally understood.  You can only hold you talent together for so long with the cap.  That means you have to get a legit QB this year, IMO.  I think RR is hold his cards, like Mayhew and Hurney are close to their chest.  Whether it's trading for one or moving up in the draft I expect us to have a franchise QB on this year this year.  Just a guess on my part.  He may not start this year if he's draft but I expect us to address the issue as, I think it's our biggest issue. 

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I was wondering that too. But I had mixed feelings.

On one hand, when Brees was hurt, they had Swiss Army Knife guy start instead of WInston.

On the other hand, in a playoff battle between Brees and Brady, it was Winston who threw the first TD pass.

On the other, other hand, throwing TD's is what Winston does...the problem is INT's as well. So I guess if you left him in there long enough he would have probably thrown a few picks.

Hence the fact, they start Hill instead of Winston, when Brees got McRibbed

Winston is a guy I never considered until I read all of these posts so I've been looking a little more at him. If the Saints like him and want to keep him, but don't have much to pay him, maybe we should consider him? If he can be coached up into better decisions he'd be a great option, then again, Bruce Arians couldn't move on from him fast enough. 

[Est.1974]

Rivera once compared Winston to Cam.

 

Winston also had something like 90 INTS and 50 fumbles, half lost, in his TB career. 
 

??

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Fans, don't get your hopes up this offseason

 

I wouldn't let that comment bother anyone if they want a QB this off season.  He's also said in just about every interview figuring out the Qb spot is the top goal for this off season.  So his goal clearly isn't to punt it to 2022.  but if that happens it happens. 

 

I've heard that comment along with many others while watching a whole bunch of Rivera interviews last week.  The theme seems to be heck yeah he wants to fix this spot this year but he can't control the market so if things don't flow right, he's not going to force it.  I presume really every team though sees it the same way. 

 

You can make a strong bid for example for Stafford but you can't control what other teams bid.  And you can't control who hits the market.  As Rivera said in a different interview more or less which is that he can't really zone in on targets just yet without even knowing all the existing targets.  He is basically saying things need to unfold and then they will react and he's not going to telegraph his moves in advance.    But yeah if nothing good materializes he's not going to force it but clearly that's not how he prefers it go down. 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Malapropismic Depository]

The other concern about Winston is mobility.

We had those issues with both Haskins and Smith, and feel like we're leaning toward a more mobile QB

[Skinsinparadise]

Finlay and Keim said they were informed a good QB is more important to them than mobility.  Rivera actually said something along those lines himself. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Darth Tater]

8 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Winston is a guy I never considered until I read all of these posts so I've been looking a little more at him. If the Saints like him and want to keep him, but don't have much to pay him, maybe we should consider him? If he can be coached up into better decisions he'd be a great option, then again, Bruce Arians couldn't move on from him fast enough. 

Things I like about Winston:

1. He is young enough to be a long-term solution.

2. At times, he has shown he has the ability to be a franchise guy (albeit, he has been, cough-cough, a bit inconsistent in that regard).

3. He won't cost in terms of the very limited resources (draft picks or players) so it will not be as big a problem if its a fail.

[Malapropismic Depository]

No love for Montez here eh ?

 

[kingdaddy]

8 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Things I like about Winston:

1. He is young enough to be a long-term solution.

2. At times, he has shown he has the ability to be a franchise guy (albeit, he has been, cough-cough, a bit inconsistent in that regard).

3. He won't cost in terms of the very limited resources (draft picks or players) so it will not be as big a problem if its a fail.

He seems like the kind of QB that if we brought him in to compete with Allen and Heiny that would blow them away with his raw skills, size, etc...If we are confident in what we have in Allen and Heiny then Winston could be an interesting option based on the points you made alone. 

9 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

No love for Montez here eh ?

 

What do we really know about him as a prospect? We've had him for a full season and I have no clue what our coaches think of him? I like his college film that I saw.

[Andre The Giant]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

Hopefully not true

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, skinzplay said:

 

What I said: I'd rather roll with Henicke and Allen, and continue to build around the QB position, as opposed to give up the resources we would need to do that building.

What you said: And I'm not some hardcore Carr person; I'm pretty lukewarm on him and it would depend on what we'd have to give up.

 

We are not actually in disagreement. And look at that, hoss, I didn't even call your perspective ludicrous.

 

Exactly how long do you want to build around the QB position, before taking a shot on one, though? Outside one of those flukes where a great team with a mediocre QB wins one SB, all it likely means is we'll be one of those teams that's about even in wins and losses for years. We might sneak into the playoffs once or twice but not actually go anywhere. Basically Gibbs 2.0. And as far as the draft that means we'll be good enough to not get a shot at a top QB prospect and bad enough that we we're never a real contender.

 

At some point we're going to have to take a shot on a QB. And if we're a middling team that's almost inevitably going to mean giving up draft picks to get one, whether it's to move up and pick one in the draft, or to bring one in via trade. That or we just keep picking later round guys and hope that we got a winning lotto ticket and he turns into a top tier franchise guy. But that almost never happens.

 

And sorry, but the position that Carr isn't an upgrade over Heinicke and Allen is ludicrous. Both of those guys are UDFA backup caliber players who have already been with several teams. Now, I certainly wouldn't want to give up too much to get Carr, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't easily be an upgrade at the position. 

[Skinsinparadise]

@wit33 this you on twitter?  just kidding.