A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

[duffy]

19 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Nobody is interested in making Kyle GM right now.

Yeah, I don't want him to be handed the GM job, but I'd certainly like to keep him in the organization. 

[Riggo#44]

Just now, duffy said:

Yeah, I don't want him to be handed the GM job, but I'd certainly like to keep him in the organization. 

I've said this before: unlike previous regimes, where we traded people and they had to find out about it on Twitter, I guarantee Rivera had been upfront with Smith, and he knows exactly where he stands.

[justice98]

44 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Nobody is interested in making Kyle GM right now.

 

That's obvious because he's not getting interviews. But that's also not really the point.  The point is there's no path to it here.  As long as Rivera's here, it's closed.  Nobody wants to work at a gig where the boss really isn't sold.

Edited January 15, 2021 by justice98

[Riggo#44]

23 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

That's obvious because he's not getting interviews. But that's also not really the point.  The point is there's no path to it here.  As long as Rivera's here, it's closed.  Nobody wants to work at a gig where the boss really isn't sold.

See my post right above this. This is all speculation, and we have no idea what the actual plan is.

[RWJ]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

 

 

Here is a short write up on JoJo - Seems like a solid candidate. This was from a list of the best GM candidates for 2021. What is missing that makes you say they you are not impressed? 

 

JoJo Wooden, Los Angeles Chargers Director of Player Personnel

JoJo Wooden has been a key part of Tom Telesco’s staff with the Chargers since they joined in 2013. Originally spending 16 years with the New York Jets as a Director of Pro Scouting and Assistant Director of Player Personnel until 2012, Wooden is in charge of the Chargers professional and collegiate scouting departments.

It’s hard to argue against Wooden’s performance in this role, as the Chargers have clearly excelled in this department during his tenure. The Chargers have added players like Joey Bosa, Keenan Allen, Jason Verrett, Desmond King, Derwin James, Hunter Henry, Justin Herbert, and Austin Ekeler through the collegiate ranks, while also signing players like Brian Bulaga, Chris Harris, and Casey Hayward in free agency. Wooden is another minority NFL GM candidate in 2021.

I might have to eat my words. then   but then again it's one writeup (can you provide the link) of what one media outlet thinks of him.  Just one.

[TSO]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Dan is a nightmare.   i am afraid of an intermediary because the odds that this person is co-opted is pretty good IMO.   I am doubling down on my point on that front after Finlay describing what he's heard about past regimes. 

I get it. But to be fair, we should be scared either way, lol. He’s a big enough nightmare that it doesn’t even matter if someone is good at managing him. Heck, we’re learning in little bits and pieces that Allen was doing just that (with the reports that he was trying to talk Dan out of Haskins). Don’t get me wrong, I know Allen absolutely sucked at it and added his own issues, but what I’m saying is that “managing” someone as toxic as Dan is never easy and will inevitably cause problems. 
 

So my counter to your line of thinking, which again is totally valid and I’m not dismissing completely, is that we’ve never seen an actual coach-centric (or GM-centric for that matter) model employed that includes someone actually qualified in the personnel executive role with the proper authority he should have.
 

Until that happens, how can we really judge that Dan would still “co-opt” that guy just as easily as the others? Aren’t most of the arguments for why the “right coach” can manage him the same for the “right GM”? Furthermore, couldn’t it be argued that it would make it harder on Dan to co-opt anyone if both Head Coach and GM are equals in rank (as it is in most “Coach-centric” models, hence why it’s important we distinguish between them and the “Football Emperor” model we’ve got going on here thus far) and he’s got to listen to both sides equally? 

I guess what I’m saying is, I just don’t see why Ron would necessarily be better at managing Dan alone. In fact, one can argue that, since he’s alone at the top, Dan has an easier avenue to manipulate things than were it more spread out between two. Since Ron is also the top executive, he takes on that hat that Dan corrupts things through, anyway. He essentially IS the “Vinny” or “Bruce”. It seems to me that the best structure at keeping Dan at bay would be to have two guys at the top, equal in rank, with the authority over their respective departments, and loyal to each other. That is actually the exact “Coach-centric” model employed by the Chiefs, Niners, and Bills, where the loyalty is tied to the Coach being the guy selecting or having major input in who the GM is, but not actually having dominion over their jobs. 
 

And let’s be honest, if Dan wanted to he’d just undermine Ron anyway and force the issue with someone else in the building. He can corrupt the hierarchy any time he wants. 😕 

I think the strongest part of your argument regarding what’s best for THIS organization and THIS owner is that, yes, personnel executives do operate more behind the scenes and, thus, can be conveniently used and manipulated by an owner that doesn’t want anyone seeing it. So I think that alone might make your argument stronger. I don’t know, and like I said Ron is also operating in that role so it still is an avenue for Dan. But I also know that we haven’t actually seen a qualified personnel executive here with a legitimate resumé hired... so I just can’t assume that type of person would end up like Vinny and Bruce in terms of just capitulating to Dan, at least not more so than it being possible with Ron or anyone else. 
 

Hope I’m making sense. 
 

 In the end, I don’t care who it is and the quality of their character, this sucks we even have to discuss this. Dan will remain a major issue and hindrance to success and anyone will eventually suffer for it. Gibbs did and so will Ron. 

[TSO]

3 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Only caveat I'd add: Cerrato and Allen were Snyder hires. It seems this is Rivera's show--and it looks like its a collaborative effort, its not the Marty/Shanny show

Every single executive and coach hired here has said it’s a collaborative effort. It’s not even feasible for anyone to actually do everything at this level. Marty said it. Gibbs said it. Shanny said it. Vinny said it. Allen said it. Everyone is ideally collaborating, but that’s the problem. There are good organizational structures that codify and systematize good processes where the right people are able to fulfill their roles without unwarranted interference. The evidence is widespread around the league as to what that looks like. That’s what I’m talking about here. Can’t just stick my head in the sand. 😕 

 

3 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

And all of us are aware, this can, and probably will blow up as soon as Snyder stops suing people and starts to want to have fun again. But the approach right now is a smidgen different. The presence of people like Jason Wright instead of Allen or Cerrato is at least a move in the right direction.

I’m with you that this is different. And not just a smidgen. There are plenty of things we can point to, and I actually mentioned them in the post I made right before the one you quoted. 
 

But I’ll do it again here just so everyone knows I’m not totally down on this set up. I just want what’s best, that’s all. Things that are different: 

 

1) Dan has been embarrassed before, but this is the worst it’s ever been. He’s being attacked on all sides legally and personally. We’ve seen embarrassed Dan before and we know it eventually wears off and he’s right back at his destructive tendencies, but this time it might last longer than ever before.
 

2) Ron was given an authority here I don’t think anyone has ever had, hence he was able to change Snyder fixtures like the Athletic Training Staff lead by Larry Hess among other organizational shifts that removed Dan’s most tenured and loyal staff members. I was probably the only poster on here the last how many years who was focused on Larry Hess and co. regarding injuries when most brilliant fans were blasting the coaches for it. 🤦🏽‍♂️ So no one was more pleased we upgraded there and the positive results were immediate. 
 

3) An emphasis is being placed on the scouting department and its leadership unlike any other time before during Dan’s tenure. Promoting Kyle Smith was important, though I argued last offseason we needed to do more, and here we are doing just that now. The wide net being cast is extremely promising. Interviewing people like Cowden and even the latest news with Jojo Wooden and Nick Polk, is incredibly refreshing and what quite a few of us have been begging for, for years! We’re actually interviewing people who are currently in the league and part of some successful programs (or at least widely recognized for playing significant roles in building pretty good rosters). That’s really a dream come true for us. 
 

For me, it’s just one more step that needs to be taken for me to feel really good about the set up (of course, Snyder looms large so that feeling is limited). I was advocating for a legit GM hire last offseason and was being told that it wasn’t necessary and everything is fine as is. That Kyle Smith is “de facto” GM and final say over personnel doesn’t matter. Welp, Ron clearly didn’t agree with the first part of that so I guess those guys have to change their thoughts since it’s pretty much exclusively tied to whatever the Coach they like at the time thinks or regurgitating whatever media content they prefer that gives them what they want to hear. If the new hire is given final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason as Ron himself originally stated before being hired here... I’ll be absolutely ecstatic and this will be a model best suited for sustainable success. If not, it’s still the best we’ve had under Snyder, just not ideal. 
 

Then again, there can be no ideal with Snyder as owner. So, yeah. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[goskins10]

6 hours ago, RWJ said:

I might have to eat my words. then   but then again it's one writeup (can you provide the link) of what one media outlet thinks of him.  Just one.

 

Here is where I got it. It's a long list, he is near the end. But the list is not in any order I could see. Not saying they are right but they make good points. 

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-gm-candidates-watch-2021/

 

This provides not reasons why but calls him a high ranking NFL Executive for over a decade - also lists the other Washington GM candidates: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2021/01/washington-eyeing-chargers-jojo-wooden-falcons-nick-polk-for-gm-job

 

Here is a nice interview with him about the approach to scouting - Seems pretty sharp - https://www.chargers.com/video/inside-the-draft-with-jojo-wooden

 

I provided this but I was more asking for you to provide why you think he is not a good prospect. What information do you have? Is there a write up? You said check his profile but that tells me nothing honestly unless it's his time at the Jets - but that was a while ago and he has a pretty good record since 2013. Here is that profile:

https://www.chargers.com/team/front-office-roster/jojo-wooden

 

What exactly has you concerned? Could you please be specific? Not being an ass here but so far you have just said you are not impressed but provided nothing to support that. I am honestly interested as I admittedly know nothing more than I have just shared. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by goskins10

[goskins10]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Dan being bolted out is my top desire by a mile and that would be an understatement. 

 

I could be talked into a strong GM couldn't be co-opted by Dan but its not where I lean.  I believe that Bruce and Vinny (as incompetent as both were) were more symptoms of the disease than being the actual disease where constant socializing with Dan leads to self preservation and about winning office politics.  I've seen really good people who are good at what they do still succumb to this in smaller forms (the instinct for self-preservation I find to be strong) via the various jobs I've worked at.    That's just a guess on my end based on the reports I've seen over the years about Dan and what's transpired.  I think Gibbs managed Dan well.  I suspect that Rivera likewise has the people skills and integrity to manage Dan, too.  Will see.

 

I have a hard time acting like we have a normal owner and in turn supporting a normal structure that succeeds in normal circumstances.  I don't think we have a normal circumstance.  I am not saying you or anyone else is saying otherwise.  Just saying Dan's abormailities is heavy in the soup as for what I think about this.  It drives my thinking.  

 

And even if I went 100% into a GM centric model here, I don't think we'd have landed Rivera that way.   I think we outkicked our coverage.  Rivera to me is the closest we've had as a leader and character to Gibbs.  I think you also need someone like that to mitigate or overcome Dan's sleazy instincts.   This organization was at a really low place when they were doing this hire.  Heck some beat guys thought that Bruce might have even survived if Rivera didn't push him out behind the scenes.  One reporter (forgetting whom right now) said that they heard that Dan tried to convince Rivera to keep Bruce around in some capacity.   National reporters were surprised Dan landed Rivera, they figured his reputation was at an all time low and would in turn have to get a third tier type of candidate. 

 

I think we got to thank Rivera a lot for his emphaisis on culture change and basically overhauling quite a bit.   He got rid of Dan's minions, changed the medical staff among other things.  it was clear he wanted to rid the organizations of any of Dan's close pals/enablers.  I am not so sure that would have happened if it weren't him taking this job.  He's not the perfect coach but in my view the type we need in particular with the owner we got. 

 

 

First, I agree 100% best option is for Dan to be removed. Waiting for his Donald Sterling moment (not being racist as I don't know him that well, but finally crossing that line that puts the owners in a position where they have to force him out.) Absent that, I still, even with an abnormal owner, believe we should be at least working towards a more normal structure. And I have said that consistently. 

 

But I am not interested in a GM just for the sake of having a GM. It's not the title I want, it's the qualified person that deserves the title. So it's of course who you pick. Garbage in garbage out. Neither of those other two hires were good to begin with. I will leave it at that. 

 

And as I said to start with, I like our chances better here with Ron. He is straight up. It looks like he has a good handle on navigating Dan. But if you hire a good solid GM, if nothing else, this becomes two people that are managing Dan and keeping him out of the day to day stuff. 

 

We will see. It looks like they have a decent list of potential GMs they are talking to. Will be interesting to see how this ends up. In the end, I just want a winning team (just like you and everyone). 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

I get it. But to be fair, we should be scared either way, lol. He’s a big enough nightmare that it doesn’t even matter if someone is good at managing him. Heck, we’re learning in little bits and pieces that Allen was doing just that (with the reports that he was trying to talk Dan out of Haskins). Don’t get me wrong, I know Allen absolutely sucked at it and added his own issues, but what I’m saying is that “managing” someone as toxic as Dan is never easy and will inevitably cause problems. 

 

I agree about to be scared either way.  The question to me is simply which way could be worse or are the two models about the same with Dan depending on context?  The problem with Allen from what I've read/heard is he was more political operator and a self preservation guy than anything else. At his best he talked Dan out of some bad ideas.  But clearly he also faciliated him too on ideas including Haskins, McNabb, etc. And piled on to the scapegoating when it served him.  And Allen brought his own brand of sleaze and own twist to office politics into the mix by some accounts.   But in his defense, Dan I think brings out people's self preservation and office political instincts.  And I can't really fully blame them for it.  It's my main point. 

 

The thing about Dan that took me a long time to register is how much he craves to socialize with people in that building and how that is a key plot line.  I know you say he can easily just socialize with Rivera.  But I don't think he will find as much time to do that with the head coach at least during the season.  And more on point, Rivera doesn't strike the type to be smoking and joking in the mode that Dan seems to enjoy.  Rivera like Gibbs is a family guy.  Rivera doesn't strike me as PG as Gibbs but he's PG enough. 

 

I get the impression that Dan likes hanging with the PG-13, R types which i think are most dudes in the business. According to the WP and others, he liked to drink with Bruce and they would likely tell each other how great and smart each other are and after 5 drinks or whatever they found themselves the solution and everyone else was the problem.

 

If I recall it was Keim saying that Dan needs a close friend in that building to hang with or something like that.  He said that in the context of Alex Smith.  My take is that Dan's targeted buddy often comes at the GM spot.  If you recall Bruce was actually somewhat a Shanny guy initially.  But he became a Dan guy.   And Dan aims to turn that relationship into like college best buds and bad things ensue from that.  And yeah Dan could do that to a coach, I just don't think he could with Rivera. 

 

4 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

So my counter to your line of thinking, which again is totally valid and I’m not dismissing completely, is that we’ve never seen an actual coach-centric (or GM-centric for that matter) model employed that includes someone actually qualified in the personnel executive role with the proper authority he should have.
 

Until that happens, how can we really judge that Dan would still “co-opt” that guy just as easily as the others? Aren’t most of the arguments for why the “right coach” can manage him the same for the “right GM”? Furthermore, couldn’t it be argued that it would make it harder on Dan to co-opt anyone if both Head Coach and GM are equals in rank (as it is in most “Coach-centric” models, hence why it’s important we distinguish between them and the “Football Emperor” model we’ve got going on here thus far) and he’s got to listen to both sides equally? 

 

I don't think the quality of the GM is as much as the main plot line when it comes with Dan as I did before.  I think the personality of the GM would be even more important.  At best, I think what you get out of it is a good GM who eventually undermines his coach and the toxicity hits from that direction.  So on one front its better and on the other its worse.  Again no guarantees obviously one way or another but that would be my best guess.

 

And one key point for me here that maybe get lost in translation.

 

I am not really arguing for a coach centric approach is per se the best with Dan in general.  A coach centric one could easily go sour and be worse than a GM centric one.  My point centers on the personality.  Not so much the model.  I am saying to land Rivera I think it was the best bet for three reasons:

 

A.  Rivera would have unlikely come to this dumpster fire if not granted that type of power.   So you'd likely would have gotten some coordinator from another team, or a dude who wasn't hot in demand, who would have been grateful to get the job and would have been easier to "manage" and I'd put money that Bruce would have survived it at least in some fashion, ditto Dan's pals in the medical staff among others, and at best we'd like have a Scot type round 2 who eventually might have been undermined the same way. 

 

You needed someone with gravtis to wipe all the crap out.  I don't think it would have happened with other prospects.  A dude like Marvin Lewis just grinned and bore it when it came to the dysfunction in the Cincy FO, I seriously doubt that he would have pushed Dan's people out and brought culture change.

 

B.  His integrity/class reminds me of Gibbs. Of all the eras under Dan, he was arguably on his best behavior under Gibbs.  Rivera has similar stature and style.

 

C.  I actually trust Rivera specifically won't abuse the coach centric model the way some others would.  I think Shanny was an offensive genius but his weaknesses IMO was he thought he knew everything including personnel and defense.  Someone like him would abuse it.  He actually had that type of people and from what I read/heard he really was the defacto GM with the exception of the occasional time Dan impinged on it.   

 

From what I've heard about Rivera (incuding from Jason Wright last night on 106.7) he likes to delegate andisn't a micro manager kind of guy and he actually likes people who disagree with him.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

Every single executive and coach hired here has said it’s a collaborative effort. It’s not even feasible for anyone to actually do everything at this level. Marty said it. Gibbs said it. Shanny 

said it. Vinny said it. Allen said it. Everyone is ideally collaborating, but that’s the problem. There are good organizational structures that codify and systematize good processes where the right people are able to fulfill their roles without unwarranted interference. The evidence is widespread around the league as to what that looks like. That’s what I’m talking about here. Can’t just stick my head in the sand. 😕 

 

 

I get the point.  From what I heard Ron relied heavily on Kyle Smith's opinion last time around versus him just being a voice in the mix.     But it still is collobrative.  I don't think it was as by committee as before with Bruce, Doug, Jay, Kyle and Dan supposedly all weighing in. 

 

5 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

1) Dan has been embarrassed before, but this is the worst it’s ever been. He’s being attacked on all sides legally and personally. We’ve seen embarrassed Dan before and we know it eventually wears off and he’s right back at his destructive tendencies, but this time it might last longer than ever before.

 

Agree and I like the fact that his behavior and the culture of the organization is so central to these stories.  It's our best shot to bring change either via removing him or we have a bit of a reformed Dan.  But my gut is even a reformed Dan will still screw things up because he thinks he's smart but is actually a moron when it comes to managing a sports team.

 

5 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

2) Ron was given an authority here I don’t think anyone has ever had, hence he was able to change Snyder fixtures like the Athletic Training Staff lead by Larry Hess among other organizational shifts that removed Dan’s most tenured and loyal staff members. I was probably the only poster on here the last how many years who was focused on Larry Hess and co. regarding injuries when most brilliant fans were blasting the coaches for it. 🤦🏽‍♂️ So no one was more pleased we upgraded there and the positive results were immediate. 

 

Agree.  We've had coach centric models before:  Marty, Shanny, Gibbs and now.  The difference is Rivera was given carte blanche as to the full gamut.  It's actually part of my point.  I don't think another coach would have given that type of power.  This job was never as unattractive as it was this time.   In the past Dan can play the he's changed card.  This time the organization was in shambles.  Dan had failed time and time again.  The team looked blatantly dysfunctional.  You aren't getting Rivera who would have had other opportunities if you didn't lure him with more power.  That power while might be too much in theory -- is IMO the reason why some of this culture change has happened.  

 

Dan would always keep a corner room or some type of hold with each coaching staff.  He'd have his "people" somewhere.  This time he doesn't.  There is an advantage that the building is swarming with Rivera people and no Dan people in sight. 

 

5 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

3) An emphasis is being placed on the scouting department and its leadership unlike any other time before during Dan’s tenure. Promoting Kyle Smith was important, though I argued last offseason we needed to do more, and here we are doing just that now. The wide net being cast is extremely promising. Interviewing people like Cowden and even the latest news with Jojo Wooden and Nick Polk, is incredibly refreshing and what quite a few of us have been begging for, for years! We’re actually interviewing people who are currently in the league and part of some successful programs (or at least widely recognized for playing significant roles in building pretty good rosters). That’s really a dream come true for us. 

 

Yeah it was opined yesterday in a 106.7 interview with a reporter than Rivera probably had to talk to Dan about bringing multiple people to the FO and they'd need to shell out some money to do it.

 

I heard Jason Wright talk yesterday about how they resurface their practice fields now a lot to give players an advantage to play on a good field to get traction.  The grass has been great now at Fedex.    They are beefing up the staff in that building.

 

It brings me back to the JLC article years ago about how WFT doesn't pay their personnel department the way other teams do and its part in the soup about why they have a hard time attracting top guys.

 

Under Dan/Bruce they were cheap across the board.  That seems to be changing.  And again i think a dude without Rivera's gravitas wouldn't be bringing these kind of changes.  I don't mean to keep picking on Marvin Lewis but he was supposedly their back up choice.  He just doesn't strike me as a dude who would have changed any of this nor would name this newbee coach.  And i doubt a GM would care enough to push for some of these type of changes.  Stuff like the medical staff is very coach driven. 

 

5 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

For me, it’s just one more step that needs to be taken for me to feel really good about the set up (of course, Snyder looms large so that feeling is limited). I was advocating for a legit GM hire last offseason and was being told that it wasn’t necessary and everything is fine as is. That Kyle Smith is “de facto” GM and final say over personnel doesn’t matter. Welp, Ron clearly didn’t agree with the first part of that so I guess those guys have to change their thoughts since it’s pretty much exclusively tied to whatever the Coach they like at the time thinks or regurgitating whatever media content they prefer that gives them what they want to hear. If the new hire is given final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason as Ron himself originally stated before being hired here... I’ll be absolutely ecstatic and this will be a model best suited for sustainable success. If not, it’s still the best we’ve had under Snyder, just not ideal. 
 

Then again, there can be no ideal with Snyder as owner. So, yeah. 🤷🏽‍♂️

 

From what i am reading/hearing Ron wants a GM who does more than just pick players but also help run the team and facilitate the culture.  It was an underrated part of what Scot did while he was here.   Scot talked to the players and was engaged.  Ironically it came out that Bruce hated that.    I saw that myself first hand when I had lunch with him that time.  Players loved him, they kept coming to our table.   

 

From what I can tell Scot wasn't just a player evaluation nerd but also had great people skills and knew how to interact with players there and be part of building the culture.  He talked publicly about what type of identity they were trying to build.   I didn't really think of it in this way until recently but I'd wage this above all is what likely made Bruce jealous of Scot.  Scot had a magentic way about him and can bond with players.  Bruce from what I observed (granted in small samples) came off like a suit, a corporate type, and not a dude that a player would want to go to his office to chat and talk about the team's culture or whatever.

 

Guys like Keim have said including recently that Rivera's relationship with Kyle Smith is good.   But I get the impression (adding things up even though they haven't been expressively said in this way) that Kyle mostly likes to bury his time evaluating players versus adminster and manage culture stuff.   He doesn't strike me as a dude with killer people skills.  And I love Kyle's profile and everything I've heard about him.  But the more things leak about what Ron wants, it doesn't strike me that weird that he's not being elevated to that spot just yet.   I am guessing Rivera ideally wants a GM that's sort of a partner in building in the culture building.  

 

Rivera oozes people skills and culture building.  So does Jason Wright.  I think they are looking for one more guy like that in the building. 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[RichmondRedskin88]

Maybe Dan has learned that the whole best bud junk isn’t the best way to go.  I don’t care if socializes with others in building.  Obviously him and Ron talk a lot.  As long as Dan realizes this is a organization and every job has expectations end standards including his which he’s been failing I’m fine.  I can’t expect Dan to barricade himself in his office all day nor do I think that would good for building morale.  I think the owner should be involved but majorly involved.  They should take interest in their investment.  Just not involving themselves in things they don’t know about like building a roster or running the actual team.  

[DWinzit]

12 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

Maybe Dan has learned that the whole best bud junk isn’t the best way to go.  I don’t care if socializes with others in building.  Obviously him and Ron talk a lot.  As long as Dan realizes this is a organization and every job has expectations end standards including his which he’s been failing I’m fine.  I can’t expect Dan to barricade himself in his office all day nor do I think that would good for building morale.  I think the owner should be involved but majorly involved.  They should take interest in their investment.  Just not involving themselves in things they don’t know about like building a roster or running the actual team.  

Totally agree! It's that last sentence that's the most important one.

Dan, If you get a hankering to stick your hand in the roster decisions stop and slam it in the car door instead. We all will thank you and you may just say a team turn into a legit contender

Edited January 15, 2021 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Commander -JB-]

10 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

I can't imagine Kyle Smith is long for this team with some of the people they're interviewing.  Rivera seemingly has no real interest in making Kyle the GM and then is interviewing people that do the same thing he does for GM and dont gave any GM experience either.  And this is after saying he wanted an experienced GM.  I'd be plotting my exit if I were him.

It probably has to do with multiple guys in the same position for other teams have actually had sustained success winning with those organizations.  Since Smith has been VP of Player Personnel have we had a winning record or made the playoffs even once?  Slow down with the Kyle Smith love affair.  Give him a few more years in his current role before he gets anybody’s GM job.  Earn it.

[Thinking Skins]

59 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Agree.  We've had coach centric models before:  Marty, Shanny, Gibbs and now.  The difference is Rivera was given carte blanche as to the full gamut.  It's actually part of my point.  I don't think another coach would have given that type of power.  This job was never as unattractive as it was this time.   In the past Dan can play the he's changed card.  This time the organization was in shambles.  Dan had failed time and time again.  The team looked blatantly dysfunctional.  You aren't getting Rivera who would have had other opportunities if you didn't lure him with more power.  That power while might be too much in theory -- is IMO the reason why some of this culture change has happened.  

 

I hate going down this route yet again but you're bringing it out of me. 

 

You're talking about the "right now". How many times have we said this though? How many times have we said "its never been this bad"? How many times have we said "he now has the power", only to see things revert back to the norm. You bring up 3 cases that do exactly this. Marty had all the power until Dan got bored. Shanny had all the power until Dan made suggestions and liked players. Gibbs had all the power and players would run through a wall for him but Snyder still had Clinton Portis not practicing and we were signing players B and sometimes C level players to worse contracts than Bruce Allen did. What did Dan say to Gruden, in his humbled voice, that he just wanted to win? How long did that last. Not only did they embarrass us with Cousins, not only did they draft Haskins, got us the Scot controversy (not even the bad drafts but the situation where we could only hire an out of work guy who had drinking problems in the past).

 

The Gruden hiring was unique in the sense that it was the first time we supposedly went out and looked at a number of people, but everybody knew it would be Gruden. But what we have in Dan is a guy who wants power and wants to cut corners. What does this mean. It means that the moment Ron has this ship going in any direction that resembles positive, Dan will start side seat driving and taking control of things he shouldn't be controlling and no matter what, Ron's not the guy to say no to him. The most positive thing I'm hearing about Smith (and it speaks to the culture thing) is that he said no to Dan. Honestly I wonder and kinda think that its the reason he's not being consiered for the role as GM. 

 

So I just think its dilusional to think that Dan has or ever will change. He is who he is and it sucks. For a long time I thought all we needed was X or Y but now I'm convinced that this team may get lucky under Dan in some type of one year wonder type thing, or if he can be the blind squirrel who finds the nut and interferres where the FO already was going that way, but HE IS GOING TO PUT HIS HEAD WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG. 

[RichmondRedskin88]

40 minutes ago, -JB- said:

It probably has to do with multiple guys in the same position for other teams have actually had sustained success winning with those organizations.  Since Smith has been VP of Player Personnel have we had a winning record or made the playoffs even once?  Slow down with the Kyle Smith love affair.  Give him a few more years in his current role before he gets anybody’s GM job.  Earn it.

The guy just got promoted and all reports suggest his excellent drafts are a combined effort.  People are acting like we have SB dynasty building GM in our VP position and he’s about to walk. You really think if Ron and Dan thought Kyle could make us is a long term super power and give us long term stability they’d go “nah we’re good. Let’s let someone else have that.”?

[Est.1974]

Just been reading that the 49ers get two compensatory third round picks following the loss of Saleh to the Jets. Part of the revised Rooney Rule whereby teams are awarded comp picks from the development of minority Head Coach and FO candidates/hires. Interesting.

[RichmondRedskin88]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I hate going down this route yet again but you're bringing it out of me. 

 

You're talking about the "right now". How many times have we said this though? How many times have we said "its never been this bad"? How many times have we said "he now has the power", only to see things revert back to the norm. You bring up 3 cases that do exactly this. Marty had all the power until Dan got bored. Shanny had all the power until Dan made suggestions and liked players. Gibbs had all the power and players would run through a wall for him but Snyder still had Clinton Portis not practicing and we were signing players B and sometimes C level players to worse contracts than Bruce Allen did. What did Dan say to Gruden, in his humbled voice, that he just wanted to win? How long did that last. Not only did they embarrass us with Cousins, not only did they draft Haskins, got us the Scot controversy (not even the bad drafts but the situation where we could only hire an out of work guy who had drinking problems in the past).

 

The Gruden hiring was unique in the sense that it was the first time we supposedly went out and looked at a number of people, but everybody knew it would be Gruden. But what we have in Dan is a guy who wants power and wants to cut corners. What does this mean. It means that the moment Ron has this ship going in any direction that resembles positive, Dan will start side seat driving and taking control of things he shouldn't be controlling and no matter what, Ron's not the guy to say no to him. The most positive thing I'm hearing about Smith (and it speaks to the culture thing) is that he said no to Dan. Honestly I wonder and kinda think that its the reason he's not being consiered for the role as GM. 

 

So I just think its dilusional to think that Dan has or ever will change. He is who he is and it sucks. For a long time I thought all we needed was X or Y but now I'm convinced that this team may get lucky under Dan in some type of one year wonder type thing, or if he can be the blind squirrel who finds the nut and interferres where the FO already was going that way, but HE IS GOING TO PUT HIS HEAD WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG. 

If you really think Ron after everything he’s been through is gonna let Dan tell him what he better do then you are being paranoid.  Ron could pack up and say kick rocks and have 3-4 coach offers the next day.   Then when the truth comes out the franchise could never hire a respectable coach again.  The fanbase erodes even more. Attendance plummets to new lows.  The NFL owners probably have to address the matter at that point due to loss of revenue.   

Ron will not be intimidated by Dan.  That’s assuming Dan even has any intention.  I think honestly with his desperation to finally win he may just stay back.  He probably will visit the locker room if we had major successful seasons but oh well.  If let’s Ron create a yearly contender and for most part stays out of it I think we can deal with that. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

So I just think its dilusional to think that Dan has or ever will change. He is who he is and it sucks. For a long time I thought all we needed was X or Y but now I'm convinced that this team may get lucky under Dan in some type of one year wonder type thing, or if he can be the blind squirrel who finds the nut and interferres where the FO already was going that way, but HE IS GOING TO PUT HIS HEAD WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG. 

 

My theme as for what type of FO situation I want is all about the theme that Dan won't change so what's the best way to mitigate the damage.

11 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 Ron's not the guy to say no to him.

 

Disagree.  Better yet, as some have said the way to tame the beast as for controlling Dan is to make him vested in your own decision.  That's how supposedly Gibbs was and some who cover the team feel like Rivera works Dan the same way.  The fact that Rivera benched Haskins so fast (to the dismay of some including you) shows he is willing not to cater to Dan.  Ditto releasing him. 

 

The just say no to Dan can last only so long.  Marty was like that and he was canned.   I think you need to work Dan at least at times versus having a binary approach to him 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

12 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

If you really think Ron after everything he’s been through is gonna let Dan tell him what he better do then you are being paranoid.  Ron could pack up and say kick rocks and have 3-4 coach offers the next day.   Then when the truth comes out the franchise could never hire a respectable coach again.  The fanbase erodes even more. Attendance plummets to new lows.  The NFL owners probably have to address the matter at that point due to loss of revenue.   

Ron will not be intimidated by Dan.  That’s assuming Dan even has any intention.  I think honestly with his desperation to finally win he may just stay back.  He probably will visit the locker room if we had major successful seasons but oh well.  If let’s Ron create a yearly contender and for most part stays out of it I think we can deal with that. 

You underestimate Dan. Say what you want about Ron but Shanny's resume was leaps and bounds above Ron's when he came here but he still got Dan to do the McNabb trade and to get into a power struggle with RG3. 

 

Intimidated is a strong word. I'm just saying that Dan will do something and it will ultimately be on Ron to either quit or just accept it. What's the Tyson quote, "everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth". This is Dan's punching in the mouth. The only guy who punched back was Gibbs who quit (we don't know the reason why but given how quickly he commented in 93 that the reason was family time, I can't believe that Dan's not a part of the issue). We also have Zorn who in his act of defiance WOULDN'T QUIT because he knew that's what Dan wanted him to do, and ran the stupid play twice in a row. But otherwise we have a bunch of guys who just got in line. Shanny may not have liked McNabb but he kept him for that year and kept his job. He may not have wanted RG3 but he made it work for 2 years even if it did cost him his job. Gruden may not have wanted Haskins but we got him and he didn't quit. 

 

Ultimately Dan knows that he's giving these guys a guaranteed contract and its only guaranteed if these guys don't quit. So he can do whatever he wants once they are under contract. If they quit, so what - he just doesn't pay them. But if they don't quit then it's looked at (at least temporarily) as partially their decision. And that's all Snyder needs. 

[Thinking Skins]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Disagree.  Better yet, as some have said the way to tame the beast as for controlling Dan is to make him vested in your own decision.  That's how supposedly Gibbs was and some who cover the team feel like Rivera works Dan the same way.  The fact that Rivera benched Haskins so fast (to the dismay of some including you) shows he is willing not to cater to Dan.  Ditto releasing him. 

 

The just say no to Dan can last only so long.  Marty was like that and he was canned.   I think you need to work Dan at least at times versus having a binary approach to him 

Edited 8 minutes ago by Skinsinparadise

I don't think you give Dan enough credit. The only thing that will stop Dan is other stupid owners/GMs who say I'm not going to abuse you like that. Was it Marvin Lewis who didn't want to do Dan badly by taking 2 firsts from him for a player? I know it was the Jets who drafted Sanchez before we could, so we wound up taking Orakpo. Unfortunately I think Dan will have his ideas and where they come from is a mystery. The only certainty is that they'll be bad ideas. He's like Lucky from Goodfellas, or like Opposite George on Seinfeld. Whatever he bets on, we need to not do. But its Dan's team so the most Ron can do is try to placate him but ultimately if Dan wants to do X and no matter how bad X is, there is only so much that Ron can say before Dan is saying "we're doing X" like he said "we're drafting Haskins". 

 

It doesn't matter that Smith who is the best draft guy we've had under Snyder's tenure was against it. It only matters that Dan wanted it and Dan is not used to hearing no, and although he heard it here, it was insignificant because we still got Haskins. 

[RichmondRedskin88]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

You underestimate Dan. Say what you want about Ron but Shanny's resume was leaps and bounds above Ron's when he came here but he still got Dan to do the McNabb trade and to get into a power struggle with RG3. 

 

Intimidated is a strong word. I'm just saying that Dan will do something and it will ultimately be on Ron to either quit or just accept it. What's the Tyson quote, "everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth". This is Dan's punching in the mouth. The only guy who punched back was Gibbs who quit (we don't know the reason why but given how quickly he commented in 93 that the reason was family time, I can't believe that Dan's not a part of the issue). We also have Zorn who in his act of defiance WOULDN'T QUIT because he knew that's what Dan wanted him to do, and ran the stupid play twice in a row. But otherwise we have a bunch of guys who just got in line. Shanny may not have liked McNabb but he kept him for that year and kept his job. He may not have wanted RG3 but he made it work for 2 years even if it did cost him his job. Gruden may not have wanted Haskins but we got him and he didn't quit. 

 

Ultimately Dan knows that he's giving these guys a guaranteed contract and its only guaranteed if these guys don't quit. So he can do whatever he wants once they are under contract. If they quit, so what - he just doesn't pay them. But if they don't quit then it's looked at (at least temporarily) as partially their decision. And that's all Snyder needs. 

You are talking about a Mike Shanahan that was only sort of in demand.  Ron was the hottest coach on the market pretty much.   We couldn’t even get a GM or president because we had to rush to get him.  Again Ron can walk today and he’d have a bunch of offers.  He just navigated a entire FO shift, harassment scandal, a rogue QB, cancer, and reached the playoffs his first year.   Soon as it gets leaked that Dan tried to take over it would not only make Ron look like he got a raw deal but no one would want to join the Wash front office.  You might as well fold the franchise.  Unless they come to some big deal for him not to reveal what happened so he would get paid anyway and still find tons of offers.  Ron doesn’t need Dan.  Dan needs Ron. 

[boston skins fan]

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

Every single executive and coach hired here has said it’s a collaborative effort. It’s not even feasible for anyone to actually do everything at this level. Marty said it. Gibbs said it. Shanny said it. Vinny said it. Allen said it. Everyone is ideally collaborating, but that’s the problem. There are good organizational structures that codify and systematize good processes where the right people are able to fulfill their roles without unwarranted interference. The evidence is widespread around the league as to what that looks like. That’s what I’m talking about here. Can’t just stick my head in the sand. 😕 

 

I’m with you that this is different. And not just a smidgen. There are plenty of things we can point to, and I actually mentioned them in the post I made right before the one you quoted. 
 

But I’ll do it again here just so everyone knows I’m not totally down on this set up. I just want what’s best, that’s all. Things that are different: 

 

1) Dan has been embarrassed before, but this is the worst it’s ever been. He’s being attacked on all sides legally and personally. We’ve seen embarrassed Dan before and we know it eventually wears off and he’s right back at his destructive tendencies, but this time it might last longer than ever before.
 

2) Ron was given an authority here I don’t think anyone has ever had, hence he was able to change Snyder fixtures like the Athletic Training Staff lead by Larry Hess among other organizational shifts that removed Dan’s most tenured and loyal staff members. I was probably the only poster on here the last how many years who was focused on Larry Hess and co. regarding injuries when most brilliant fans were blasting the coaches for it. 🤦🏽‍♂️ So no one was more pleased we upgraded there and the positive results were immediate. 
 

3) An emphasis is being placed on the scouting department and its leadership unlike any other time before during Dan’s tenure. Promoting Kyle Smith was important, though I argued last offseason we needed to do more, and here we are doing just that now. The wide net being cast is extremely promising. Interviewing people like Cowden and even the latest news with Jojo Wooden and Nick Polk, is incredibly refreshing and what quite a few of us have been begging for, for years! We’re actually interviewing people who are currently in the league and part of some successful programs (or at least widely recognized for playing significant roles in building pretty good rosters). That’s really a dream come true for us. 
 

For me, it’s just one more step that needs to be taken for me to feel really good about the set up (of course, Snyder looms large so that feeling is limited). I was advocating for a legit GM hire last offseason and was being told that it wasn’t necessary and everything is fine as is. That Kyle Smith is “de facto” GM and final say over personnel doesn’t matter. Welp, Ron clearly didn’t agree with the first part of that so I guess those guys have to change their thoughts since it’s pretty much exclusively tied to whatever the Coach they like at the time thinks or regurgitating whatever media content they prefer that gives them what they want to hear. If the new hire is given final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason as Ron himself originally stated before being hired here... I’ll be absolutely ecstatic and this will be a model best suited for sustainable success. If not, it’s still the best we’ve had under Snyder, just not ideal. 
 

Then again, there can be no ideal with Snyder as owner. So, yeah. 🤷🏽‍♂️

 

 

You wrote what i was thinking.  Id like to add this.

 

Smart people know their limitations.  I always say that "i know what i know and i know what i don't and when i don't ill find someone that does".  I get the feeling that Ron has this same philosophy.  He came in with full control and cleaned house thinking he could do everything.  He probably realized that that wasn't possiible and needed help.  I have a feeling that Ron pushed for Wright to get the business side off his plate.

 

He probably came in thinking that he could have a front office structure like he had thru the season but realized that the Admin side was to much for him.  So now he needs a GM to take more off his plate.

 

Ron by all accounts is a smart man and a strong leader.  A good leader knows his limitations and surrounds himself with people that will challenge him and not be a yes man.  

 

Ron has started to build a culture here and wants someone that can continue to build it in the front office.  I saw the term football emporer in the thread and by all accounts thats what he is.  He is the BOSS and everything comes to him.  Doesn't mean hes going to do everything just means that he is in the loop on everything.  

[RichmondRedskin88]

I want to emphasize this

 

DAN NEEDS RON.  RON DOES NOT NEED DAN.  
 

If Dan screws with Ron or causes him to walk out no respectable FO person will ever step foot in this organization again.  Players will leave.  FO will leave.  The franchise might as well fold at that point unless the NFL owners step in because the Wash organization will collapse.