Press Release: #REDSKINS EXERCISE FIFTH-YEAR OPTION ON JONATHAN ALLEN

[method man]

13 hours ago, KDawg said:

Why do people still look at Ioan’s role as “backup”?

 

He played more snaps than Payne and Allen. 
 

What makes him a backup except he’s not always on the first defense out on the field?

Didn’t Ion play more games than Allen last season? Could’ve merely been that

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, method man said:

Didn’t Ion play more games than Allen last season? Could’ve merely been that

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/2019.htm

 

Allen played in 15 games. So did Ioan.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/snap-counts?year=2019&team=WAS&week=ALL&position=ALL&op=Submit&form_build_id=form--U6xv_FQ47k8yk6Xgd4xJEz7qRIUjxcDN3MsC4tfasM&form_id=fo_stats_snap_counts_form

 

Including specs, Ioan had 989 snaps. Just D, Ioan had 839.

 

Payne had 766 defensive snaps.

 

Allen had 730.

[WilberMarshall]

14 hours ago, JaxJoe said:

I agree that KS should at least start thinking about what Ioannidis’ value would be; maybe throw around some darts at teams that use the 3-4. I don't want to start a war here but I think Ioannidis is likely better suited as a two-gap 3-4 DE than a 4-3 DT. He is a mauler when he gets into an OL’s pads and can quickly shed and tackle. Frankly, I rarely see him shoot a gap like Allen or Payne. I know Ioannidis is one of our top lineman but he can bring in 2nd rounder or higher then that might be something to look into. 

For real? 😳

 

Ioannidis has been our best line man. 4-3 will make him even more beastly. With regards with not seeing him shoot a gap, you need to upgrade your gameday feed to HD. 

Consistently graded as one of the better if not the best lineman.  

Didn't we just extend him? and you want to trade him? Why even think about trading him now? 

14 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Anyone of you people suggesting we trade Allen, Iaon, Payne, Sweat or any other key player from our front four should have a dodo bird avatar. You're bonkers. We're gonna have something good and possibly special and you hillbillies wanna **** it up?

Dodo bird is a living animal.

 

They should have a farm implement or even a scarecrow as an avatar. 

 

Shouldn't be allowed to operate mechanical devices in public or without supervision. 

[bowhunter]

12 hours ago, WilberMarshall said:

For real? 😳

 

Ioannidis has been our best line man. 4-3 will make him even more beastly. With regards with not seeing him shoot a gap, you need to upgrade your gameday feed to HD. 

Consistently graded as one of the better if not the best lineman.  

Didn't we just extend him? and you want to trade him? Why even think about trading him now? 

Dodo bird is a living animal.

 

They should have a farm implement or even a scarecrow as an avatar. 

 

Shouldn't be allowed to operate mechanical devices in public or without supervision. 

I'd bet the IQ of todays farmer is a good bit higher than the city folks depending on him, and he can probably operate their computer better than the city guy can tell a disc from a bush hog. Much less operate it

[sportjunkie07]

As of now, I want to find a way to keep Allen Payne and ion longterm. These positions aren’t expensive relative to others so it is doable if the team is proactive. I also like Tim settle and would like to see him get more playing time to Increase his trade value and allow the team more leverage on the contracts for the rest of the dlineman.

 

 I’d like to front load some of these contracts to allow for some roster cap space for emerging players elsewhere on the team 3-5 years from now. Ideally by then our offense should be firing on all cylinders and we’ll need to extend key pieces at positions that do cost a lot.
 

I also expect the defense to improve markedly which will increase contract demands.

 

i was for trading Kerrigan 2 years ago because I thought he would bring a lot of value to a redskins team that was going nowhere. Now we are better off letting him play out his contract. He is a baller and I think the coaching staff will find a way to use him.

 

New coaches usually only get 1 and sometimes 2 real chances to turn around their teams fortunes. i think they have enough talent and the right coaching on defense.
 

Offense is a different story. We will be ultimately limited as a team by the rate of development of Haskins. To assist, we need a creative scheme and a talent infusion, especially along the offensive line. 

I do think we’ll probably be better off in the short term with Kyle Allen at qb,  but I’m not sure if he has longterm potential. Haskins definitely has potential, but he will need a lot of support to get there.

 

gibson and the charles will be franchise altering picks if they become plus players.

 

The redskins have not be set up for longterm success in a few decades. We actually are very close to breaking out of the slums.

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 4/27/2020 at 4:47 PM, Burgundy Yoda said:

No complaints here. The value of Jonathan Allen goes beyond stats and production, although his 15 sacks in 36 games is still very good. 

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, and I like Jonathan Allen and extending him was a no-brainer.  I want him on this team for a long time, have no doubt he is a leader in the locker room and will improve with better coaching.  But I go back to Brian Orakpo, a player the majority of the fans felt was not worth the money.  Few were upset that we let him walk yet he had 39.5 sacks in 71 games which works out to .55 a game where Allen is at .41.  Allen has more tackles but Rak knocked down a lot more passes. Statistically they are very close overall.

 

This is more a comment on fan reaction than Jonathan Allen.   Many said Rak was constantly crying when the fact is he WAS held around the neck constantly and it was not called.  It was said at his retirement that his presence in the locker room was a big factor in the Titans turnaround.  I just never understood the love for Allen, who has been good but certainly nothing more than that.  This is love Rak never received when they are comparable players.

[dyst]

@Darrell Green Fan Orakpo was defensive end, shouldnt his sack totals be higher than Allen, who is an interior linemen?

[Darrell Green Fan]

@dyst Very true, yet their stats when tackles and passes deflected are all counted are still very similar.  Yet the fan reaction is far different.  

[DWinzit]

Loved Rak. Allen and he played different positions so it is hard to compare stats. The one thing that hurt him was playing in only half the games over his final three seasons in Washington.

[Darrell Green Fan]

7 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Loved Rak. Allen and he played different positions so it is hard to compare stats. The one thing that hurt him was playing in only half the games over his final three seasons in Washington.

 

Yeah i thought about that but he played in 16, 15, 16, 2, 15, 7 in 6 seasons where Allen has played in 5, 16 and 15.  So they both played full seasons in 2 out of every 3  so again not that much dramatically different.   In Tennessee he missed 3 games in 4 seasons so it's not like he was broken down when he left Washington.  

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, and I like Jonathan Allen and extending him was a no-brainer.  I want him on this team for a long time, have no doubt he is a leader in the locker room and will improve with better coaching.  But I go back to Brian Orakpo, a player the majority of the fans felt was not worth the money.  Few were upset that we let him walk yet he had 39.5 sacks in 71 games which works out to .55 a game where Allen is at .41.  Allen has more tackles but Rak knocked down a lot more passes. Statistically they are very close overall.

 

This is more a comment on fan reaction than Jonathan Allen.   Many said Rak was constantly crying when the fact is he WAS held around the neck constantly and it was not called.  It was said at his retirement that his presence in the locker room was a big factor in the Titans turnaround.  I just never understood the love for Allen, who has been good but certainly nothing more than that.  This is love Rak never received when they are comparable players.

You do realize there’s a difference between defensive tackles and defensive ends? A DT collecting eight sacks in an off year  is big time. They aren’t supposed to be double  digit  sack guys. 

[DWinzit]

37 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Yeah i thought about that but he played in 16, 15, 16, 2, 15, 7 in 6 seasons where Allen has played in 5, 16 and 15.  So they both played full seasons in 2 out of every 3  so again not that much dramatically different.   In Tennessee he missed 3 games in 4 seasons so it's not like he was broken down when he left Washington.  

True, I think there was concern he would breakdown more as he had been injured at the end of his run in Washington. I would bet if they knew he would sustain health over the next 4 seasons the would have signed him.

A good comparison with the Rak situation might be Scherff. Great player but injuries have been prevalent. The team and posters seem torn whether to sign him or not due to health concerns. The last thing we need is another cap eater on the IR, yet an animal and leader when on the field. The past couple years Allen has been a solid leader and always available.

[Darrell Green Fan]

21 minutes ago, Burgold said:

You do realize there’s a difference between defensive tackles and defensive ends? A DT collecting eight sacks in an off year  is big time. They aren’t supposed to be double  digit  sack guys. 

 

Yeah I covered that in a follow up post.  Are you prepared to argue that Jonathan Allen has been significantly better than Brian Orakpo?  Because he certainly has received significantly more praise.  

[CommDownMan]

59 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

@dyst Very true, yet their stats when tackles and passes deflected are all counted are still very similar.  Yet the fan reaction is far different.  

 

I've actually seen several people to say Allen should go when it comes time for big money over Payne/Young and some Sweat.  Not a lot, but some, so like most things the reaction isn't consistent. 

 

RR said no one was getting extended this off season.  This is a bit different, however I think what comes next will depend on how he does this year.  I'm not sure I like a Orakpo comparison, but taking the 5th year option makes sense.   If comparing values this year, Orakpo's franchise tag would be 17.8 million (which is when I'm assuming people questioned the value of keeping/extending) and Allen's 5th year option is 9 million.   If the production is similar, it would be easy to argue the contract value is about half.  Orakpo's Tenneessee contract was 8 mill per vs 11 mill, so something in between.  But changes in cap overall make this a less than apples to apples comparison.

 

https://overthecap.com/franchise-transition-and-rfa-tenders/

[Est.1974]

21 minutes ago, jsharrin55 said:

 

RR said no one was getting extended this off season.  

Kyle also said that after the draft when discussing the Trent trade. About players playing out their last years etc. I don’t fully buy that, or at least i don’t think it’s an exclusive statement.

 

Bit like RR saying he loved our last 3 drafts. It hasn’t stopped us bring a raft of interior OL and RBs in. 
 

 

[Burgold]

32 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Yeah I covered that in a follow up post.  Are you prepared to argue that Jonathan Allen has been significantly better than Brian Orakpo?  Because he certainly has received significantly more praise.  

I liked both.

 

Has Jonathan Allen been a significantly better defensive tackle than Orakpo was a defensive end? It's an interesting question.

 

Right now, I'd probably give the edge to Orakpo, but I think there are some important asterisks. The first of which was last year, there was such disarray and chaos especially on the defensive side that I don't know if it was possible for a player to have a great year. The defense was mismanaged in every way possible. So, how do we grade Allen in that chaos? Also, how do we grade him considering he played through the year on a bad leg? Do we grade him on the curve, giving him the benefit of a better grade because he was still pretty good despite the injury and situation or do we grade him down because this is the second time in three years that injuries have limited his ability to impact games? If we look at Allen's second year and his (very) truncated rookie year, he looked exceptional. A leader who turned out to be very much the steal we thought we were getting in the first round. I tend to think that second year represents the real player and the third year showed off that player's real grit.

 

So, I'm not down on Allen at all. He still produced as a tackle even in a year where he was not at his best and the defense in general was abysmal around him. 

I was also a fan of Orakpo, but was frustrated with his injuries and that he couldn't come up with a second move to stop the endless (and almost never called) choke-holds. Interestingly, I think Young covered this in an interview already. He said, if a defense has one good player that player can be taken out, but if there's talent all across the line, then that player has a chance to shine. I think roster construction held Orakpo back. Last year, I think roster construction (particularly the linebackers), defensive miscommunication, and just brain dead coaching/play calling made Allen look average at best.

[Going Commando]

23 hours ago, KDawg said:

Including specs, Ioan had 989 snaps. Just D, Ioan had 839.

 

Payne had 766 defensive snaps.



 

That's way too many snaps for an interior DL.  But I imagine that's a symptom of the defense not being able to get off the field and the offense being way too quick to give the ball back.  It does speak well for his versatility though, as well as his conditioning and durability.

 

It also underscores the danger in trading him.  Realistically, if you want to have a dominant DL rotation, you need at least three healthy high level IDLs.  Preferably more for the purpose of injury depth (injuries are absolutely going to happen at that position).  If we lose Ioannidis, then maybe Settle can step up and fill the void in the regular rotation.  But if one of them gets hurt, we went from our IDL being the strength of the team to a weakness where we're plugging holes with bargain free agents again.  That would suck.

 

It would have to be something like a decent first round pick in return to get me to give up my IDL strength and depth by trading Ioannidis.

[Dark Acre]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:13 AM, WilberMarshall said:

Dodo bird is a living animal.

You sure about that?

[CommDownMan]

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Kyle also said that after the draft when discussing the Trent trade. About players playing out their last years etc. I don’t fully buy that, or at least i don’t think it’s an exclusive statement.

 

Bit like RR saying he loved our last 3 drafts. It hasn’t stopped us bring a raft of interior OL and RBs in. 
 

 

 

Well, I'm talking about fan reaction and how the 5th year option looks vs the franchise tag cost of Orakpo.  I'm not sure why you only quoted the one part.

 

Chiefs won the Superbowl and drafted new guys.  Liking what you have doesn't mean that there isn't room to improve a group.  RR could really really like Guice and Love, but also not have confidence in their health. 

 

Could we still see a guy like Kerrigan extended or Sherff because it makes sense?  Sure, they'd be silly to have a 100% hard line.  But to this point they have stood by the no extension statement.  I think the 5th year option is different and a reason to "extend".  The cost compared to Orakpo is cheaper with the (admittedly) not apples to apples comparison.  Again, I only mentioned to put the value in context and a reason for potential differences noticed in fan reaction.

[Burgundy Yoda]

7 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, and I like Jonathan Allen and extending him was a no-brainer.  I want him on this team for a long time, have no doubt he is a leader in the locker room and will improve with better coaching.  But I go back to Brian Orakpo, a player the majority of the fans felt was not worth the money.  Few were upset that we let him walk yet he had 39.5 sacks in 71 games which works out to .55 a game where Allen is at .41.  Allen has more tackles but Rak knocked down a lot more passes. Statistically they are very close overall.

 

This is more a comment on fan reaction than Jonathan Allen.   Many said Rak was constantly crying when the fact is he WAS held around the neck constantly and it was not called.  It was said at his retirement that his presence in the locker room was a big factor in the Titans turnaround.  I just never understood the love for Allen, who has been good but certainly nothing more than that.  This is love Rak never received when they are comparable players.

This is an interesting comparison but I'm taking Allen here. Orakpo wasn't very good against the run and after his rookie season he really tailed off. I was immensely disappointed in him as a player and it was evident how much better Kerrigan was than him pretty much immediately.

 

Jonathan Allen is also an interior DL, sacks are a secondary stat (he still averages about 6.5 a year based on that .41 stat, which is damn good). I'll be honest that I thought Allen would be a bit better than what he has been, but he's barely had 2 seasons of play. The most important stats for an interior DL is QB pressures/QB hits in my opinion and Allen has averaged 21 & 22 pressures the last two seasons (comparable to players like Ndamukong Suh and Jurrell Casey). 

 

And now Allen's main strength, his run defense. Orakpo's run D is not comparable to Allen's. Now we might be smart to trade Allen if he has a strong season this year unless he would be okay with playing on a fair contract. There simply isn't enough money to go around to pay Allen, Payne, Settle, Young, and Sweat while trying to build a competitive roster around them.

[Darrell Green Fan]

21 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

This is an interesting comparison but I'm taking Allen here. Orakpo wasn't very good against the run and after his rookie season he really tailed off. I was immensely disappointed in him as a player and it was evident how much better Kerrigan was than him pretty much immediately.

 

Jonathan Allen is also an interior DL, sacks are a secondary stat (he still averages about 6.5 a year based on that .41 stat, which is damn good). I'll be honest that I thought Allen would be a bit better than what he has been, but he's barely had 2 seasons of play. The most important stats for an interior DL is QB pressures/QB hits in my opinion and Allen has averaged 21 & 22 pressures the last two seasons (comparable to players like Ndamukong Suh and Jurrell Casey). 

 

And now Allen's main strength, his run defense. Orakpo's run D is not comparable to Allen's. Now we might be smart to trade Allen if he has a strong season this year unless he would be okay with playing on a fair contract. There simply isn't enough money to go around to pay Allen, Payne, Settle, Young, and Sweat while trying to build a competitive roster around them.

 

Yeah it's really hard to compare the 2 positions, no doubt.   But nobody has offered significant data that shows Allen is far superior to Rak yet the fan reaction of the 2 has been totally different and that remains my point. 

 

I never understood why so many were anxious to see Rak leave, and I stand by the thought that had Jonathan Allen played this way as a 5th rounder out of Northwestern people would have a different opinion of him.  He's been good, perhaps very good at times, but this was not what I was expecting on draft day when we thought we got the steal of the draft.  Coaching has been a factor for sure but so far with the same coaching Matt I has played if not better than at least at the same level.

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Yeah it's really hard to compare the 2 positions, no doubt.   But nobody has offered significant data that shows Allen is far superior to Rak yet the fan reaction of the 2 has been totally different and that remains my point. 

 

I never understood why so many were anxious to see Rak leave, and I stand by the thought that had Jonathan Allen played this way as a 5th rounder out of Northwestern people would have a different opinion of him.  He's been good, perhaps very good at times, but this was not what I was expecting on draft day when we thought we got the steal of the draft.  Coaching has been a factor for sure but so far with the same coaching Matt I has played if not better than at least at the same level.

 

I feel the same way about both guys (Rak and Allen), actually.

 

Slightly overrated by some, underrated by others but valuable to the team. 

 

If the pay can be worked out and works for the team and the player moving forward, keep them. They have good value.

 

If the pay can't be worked out, move on and get what you can.

[Est.1974]

As context, this is the great deal we got Ioannidis on.
 

Matthew Ioannidis signed a 3 year, $21,750,000 contract with the Washington Redskins, including a $6,000,000 signing bonus, $14,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $7,250,000. In 2020, Ioannidis will earn a base salary of $4,200,000 and a roster bonus of $300,000, while carrying a cap hit of $6,000,000 and a dead cap value of $8,700,000.

[skeenzfan]

On 4/29/2020 at 6:59 AM, Darrell Green Fan said:

@dyst Very true, yet their stats when tackles and passes deflected are all counted are still very similar.  Yet the fan reaction is far different.  

One was a DE with this primary job being rushing the passer and the other is a DT who is expected to push the pocket and stop the run. You can't compare the two. Their stat's being similar is an indicator that Orakpo was an average DE.