2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Panninho]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

@PanninhoI don't think people pointing out Mac Jones's physical limitations is "slander", it's just analysis from watching his games. I don't really care how decent his arm looked during his pro day, the tape shows he struggles when going deep; many times you could tell he put almost everything he had into it and it still was a little short. It also showed a guy who isn't very mobile on the field and doesn't look great when he needs to make off-schedule plays.

 

Does that take away from what he's great at? Not at all. But IMO it's still pretty clear and it also goes against the way the NFL trends nowadays, which is towards more athletic and mobile passers who can make plays outside of the pocket. None of the top 10 QBs outside of Brady are in the mold of the classic "pocket passer" like Mac.

 

I can see the Kirk Cousins comparison, though I think Cousins is more mobile and has a bit better arm. I'd say Cousins is his ceiling (though I personally don't think Jones would struggle as much as Kirk in big moments...just a hunch). That's not a bad thing...that's a good QB. But is it a guy you give up three 1st round picks for? No way.

 

 

Yeah I agree with all of that. It's just that going by most of the stuff I've seen from many people lately you'd get the impression that Jones is a third round pick at best. 

Not necessarily here, just in general. 

And while he for sure isn't an all-time great talent I think that people focus so much on his flaws that by now he is a bit underrated.

[Burgundy Yoda]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Thanks. Looks like a bit more of a finesse player than a mauler...though he does seem to have good strength and you can see him pushing guys out of the way at times. That may be partially why some people have said he's not a super high effort guy? He plays sound, assignment based football but doesn't seem like a guy who really play with a nasty streak and just loves destroying people. 

 

None of that means he isn't a very good prospect. He's obviously extremely athletic an you can tell in some of those snaps. Technique-wise the guy in the video talked about it...but he seems to lunge a bit when he initiates contact with pass rushers. He also pointed out how he opened his hips way early and I was wondering how susceptible that would make him to inside moves and then he showed some and it wasn't good. Footwork overall looks nimble but he can get narrow during his kick step and slide.

 

But that's stuff that can be coached up. The effort/mean streak stuff can't. But again, I don't think it's completely necessary. Good to have, but not a must-have. Joe Thomas was a pretty quiet guy who played incredibly sound technical football and is a future HoFer.

 

I'd be good with him at 19.

No problem man. It's hard to tell when it comes to effort/mean streak type players when it comes to offensive lineman. Quentin Nelson has it, Trent Williams has it, Taylor Lewan has it as well (not as good of a player obviously), but there are a lot of players that are just in-between, yah know? Ronnie Stanley is good, but I don't think he has a mean streak. Even Joe Thomas just did his job, but I don't recall him having a mean streak. 

 

When it comes to effort, do they know they clearly beat their man and are preserving themselves for the next play? Sometimes that extra push isn't worth it if the end result doesn't change. I'd be curious to hear how he is in practice, that's when you get a good feeling about how a LT is with effort. If he doesn't practice hard, boom, that's a red flag for me. 

 

Hard to find Trent Williams types, he is Silverback and that is the persona he adopts on the field. 

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, Panninho said:

Yeah I agree with all of that. It's just that going by most of the stuff I've seen from many people lately you'd get the impression that Jones is a third round pick at best. 

Not necessarily here, just in general. 

And while he for sure isn't an all-time great talent I think that people focus so much on his flaws that by now he is a bit underrated.

 

Yeah I don't really get someone who thinks Jones is a 3rd or later pick. Personally I'd have him as a very solid 2nd rounder, but given positional value I wouldn't be at all surprised if he goes in the 1st. I think some team will get a very solid NFL QB. Probably not a superstar, but a guy who can win if you surround him with talent. I wouldn't be terribly upset if we went with him at 19, especially since RR and ST have forgotten more football than I know, but he's definitely not a guy I'd trade up for.

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Darrisaw.  But, I said something similar here months back before I started reading some other mock drafter types say the same.  I got slammed a little by a couple of people here I respect for having that take.  So i posted some clips to show what i mean.

 

I thought he was a good run blocker but also has moments when he wasn't.  i noticed for example on some runs he didn't find a dude to block and just watched the run and in some other cases he didn't really finish off the block.  It didn't happen a lot but it was noticeable the occasional time I saw it.   On the other hand, he has some really fun Scherff like highlight blocks on the 2nd level.   I think his potential is great as a run blocker but I don't think he was flawless on that front.

 

As a pass blocker, he was good but sometimes loses contain, defenders can sometimes run around him.  I recall posting a couple of clips on that front.

 

In short, I think he's ultra talented.  He looks the part including having long arms.  He's probably my top want at 19 even though i've probably slammed him the hardest here as for perceived flaws.  But as I said when I gave a longish take on him -- if the dude was a stud/flawless prospect, he'd be slam dunk going top 10.  The fact that you can question his play at least a little opens him up as a possibility at 19.

I'm curious, did Darrisaw run the 40 on his pro day? You're on the money with your comment on him going top 10 if he was more consistent. I feel confident that Matsko can coach a guy like him up. I like the improvement he had in 2020, to me it shows he at least isn't coasting as a player. I love the idea of having 3 starting tackle types like we had with Trent, Moses, and Nsheke back in the day, it's good insurance to have even if only two of them play the entire season. 

 

Our depth would start to look better with Lucas, Charles/Schwes, Ismael, and Larsen. Charles and Ismael are still raw but could pan out as good depth rotation guys, Charles has a lot of potential as a guard. This offensive line as a whole, even though there aren't high profile picks on it besides Scherff, consists of good glue guys that get the job done. Scherff and Roullier are probably the only top 10 players at their positions along the OL. 

[Anselmheifer]

 

This is a good watch. I really like Chris Simms and have found him to be a solid evaluator of talent, not just at the QB position. 
 

His favorite CB is Farley, by a mile. Says he’s comparable to Jalen Ramsey. Loves him. Makes me wonder how far Farley drops and at what point we’d draft him. I have health worries. But imagine a Jalen Ramsey pores with WJIII, Fuller, and this DL.

 

Also loves Andre Cisco, who had ACL surgery in October. Same story here. I wonder how far he drops and if he could become a draft N stash. 
 

He has Tyson Campbell as his 2nd CB. I think there is some real depth at the position. Someone is going to fall to the 2nd/3rd and be a steal. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Let me warn you when I get boxed into a longish debate about a player for better or worse, that player often ultimately seems to get drafted by us.  So if you don't want Collins you might want to stop after this post. 

Fair enough. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But I don't love the dude.  The guy who i really feel absolutely comfortable with as a deep threat and is a big dude as well is Terrace Marshall.  I'd certanly consider Marshall to be one of my guys so to speak. 

 

 

And I'll eventually get around to watching Marshall.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Nobody is like Brady. Brady is like Brady. Can we please stop bringing him up? Pretty please with sugar on top?

 

I like Mac Jones in general (though I wouldn't spend a high 1st on him) but isn't it also possible that great supporting cast made a good QB look great?

Okay boss, we can't use the current best pocket passer as an example of a good pocket passer anymore. So, who under your internet rules are we allowed to use as an example of great leaders from the pocket, without great arm strength. 

 

If I want to compare a running QB to someone, who do I use as an example? 

 

Can you tell me who's allowed? Pretty please with sugar on top? ****ing lame.

[Est.1974]

Just randomly looking around at pro days, we’re RB Khalil Herbert and S/LB Divine Deablo discussed much after the VT pro day? Both looked impressive.
 

Deablo, with another 10-15 pounds added on suddenly becomes a pretty intriguing project at 240lbs running a mid 4.4 40 time, doesn’t he?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

And I'll eventually get around to watching Marshall.

 

He has some drop issues but he showcases more of that vertical threat ability than Collins. 

 

 

Seems that way, Kyle is milking it

 

 

 

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

42 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

This is a good watch. I really like Chris Simms and have found him to be a solid evaluator of talent, not just at the QB position. 
 

His favorite CB is Farley, by a mile. Says he’s comparable to Jalen Ramsey. Loves him. Makes me wonder how far Farley drops and at what point we’d draft him. I have health worries. But imagine a Jalen Ramsey pores with WJIII, Fuller, and this DL.

 

Also loves Andre Cisco, who had ACL surgery in October. Same story here. I wonder how far he drops and if he could become a draft N stash. 
 

He has Tyson Campbell as his 2nd CB. I think there is some real depth at the position. Someone is going to fall to the 2nd/3rd and be a steal. 

I've been thinking about Farley on this defense ever since rumors about him dropping due to back issues. That's two CBs that excel on the outside in man-coverage, to go along with an elite DL, with Fuller moving back inside (his PFF score was 90.6 in 2017 there), it would be insane. Probably pretty easily a top 5 secondary if everything works out and Farley becomes that type of CB. 

 

His back injury is a concern though, it seems like in a sport where you're tackling people moving at high speeds, the back injury could re-surface and possibly be a lingering issue. It would be super tempting to me though, that size/speed combo would be a nightmare for WRs. He apparently can run in the 4.2s? 

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

 

Pulled a list of top 10 LB's. Would love to hear peoples thoughts. Davis has the frame to add more bulk if needed? Werner at 14 on this particular list.

6	Micah Parsons	Penn St.	Jr	LB	1	6-3	245
16	Azeez Ojulari	Georgia	Soph	LB	2	6-3	240
23	Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah	Notre Dame	Sr	LB	3	6-1	215
28	Zaven Collins	Tulsa	Jr	LB	4	6-4	260
33	Joseph Ossai	Texas	Jr	LB	5	6-4	253
44	Jamin Davis	Kentucky	Jr	LB	6	6-4	234
50	Nick Bolton	Missouri	Jr	LB	7	6-0	232
75	Baron Browning	Ohio St.	Sr	LB	8	6-3	240
76	Dylan Moses	Alabama	Sr	LB	9	6-3	240
81	Chazz Surratt	North Carolina	Sr	LB	10	6-2	225

 

For me, for us, the candidates are:

 

Zaven Collins, Jamin Davis, Nick Bolton, Pete Werner (who should be ahead of a lot of dudes on this list but its including edge rusher types), Dylan Moses for "starting" spots.

 

Jabril Cox is a guy who should also be in consideration along with Monty Rice.

 

I don't see the Surratt thing. He has flash plays but he is extremely raw and at times plays soft. But he is a good developmental guy (but we have two of those in Hudson and Holcomb).

 

Ojulari, JOK, Ossai, Browning aren't really fits for what this team needs inside. 

[mistertim]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Okay boss, we can't use the current best pocket passer as an example of a good pocket passer anymore. So, who under your internet rules are we allowed to use as an example of great leaders from the pocket, without great arm strength. 

 

If I want to compare a running QB to someone, who do I use as an example? 

 

Can you tell me who's allowed? Pretty please with sugar on top? ****ing lame.

 

He's the best QB to ever play the game. He's an aberration not only as a late round draft pick but also as a pure pocket passer in a league where mobile athletic QBs dominate. That's like saying a RB prospect who dances around a lot behind the LOS before going forward could be great because Barry Sanders did it.

 

As far as who to compare Jones to nowadays? That was my point. There isn't anyone. Outside of the GOAT the entire top 10 of the league is full of mobile athletic QBs with good arms.

[KDawg]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

He's the best QB to ever play the game. He's an aberration not only as a late round draft pick but also as a pure pocket passer in a league where mobile athletic QBs dominate. That's like saying a RB prospect who dances around a lot behind the LOS before going forward could be great because Barry Sanders did it.

 

As far as who to compare Jones to nowadays? That was my point. There isn't anyone. Outside of the GOAT the entire top 10 of the league is full of mobile athletic QBs with good arms.

 

I don't know. Jones style reminds me a lot of Kirk Cousins to be honest. There's some differences but...

 

And that's why SF could consider him. They like Cousins and that style of QB (who is similar to, but different from Garrapolo). 

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I don't know. Jones style reminds me a lot of Kirk Cousins to be honest. There's some differences but...

 

And that's why SF could consider him. They like Cousins and that style of QB (who is similar to, but different from Garrapolo). 

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to top 5 or top 10 QBs. I suppose the case could potentially be made for Cousins as a top 10 QB, but I still see him as more of a top 15 guy. 

 

I can also see some Cousins similarities, though I think Kirk is a bit more athletic and has a somewhat better arm. I see Cousins as Jones's ceiling. Which isn't a bad thing and a team could certainly do worse. But I definitely don't think it's worth spending three 1st round picks on which is why I have a really hard time seeing SF moving up to 3 to take him.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to top 5 or top 10 QBs. I suppose the case could potentially be made for Cousins as a top 10 QB, but I still see him as more of a top 15 guy. 

 

I can also see some Cousins similarities, though I think Kirk is a bit more athletic and has a somewhat better arm. I see Cousins as Jones's ceiling. Which isn't a bad thing and a team could certainly do worse. But I definitely don't think it's worth spending three 1st round picks on which is why I have a really hard time seeing SF moving up to 3 to take him.

 

I don't think most teams would. But SF would. They are the lone specimen in that group. He is the QB that they like in their system.

 

That's not to say they wouldn't like Lance or Fields, though. Which is where the monkey wrench comes in. I could see them taking Jones at 3, but I'd be surprised if they gave up that much to get him. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

The Shanahans like Kirk Cousins as a QB but that doesn't mean they prefer pocket passers.  If you listen to Kyle and Mike in interviews they gush about the power of a mobile QB.  Now just because you want a mobile Qb doesn't mean you will get that guy.  Rivera supposedly also prefers mobile QBs but one that he liked wasn't available this off season so he got more of a pocket passer type.

 

You might want a steak but have to settle for the best burger because that's all that's there.  It doesn't mean that everything being equal you wouldn't order that steak.  It's all equal for Shanny now, so I'd bet he goes with the mobile Qb.  Don't care one way or another though.  will see. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Zaven Collins, Jamin Davis, Nick Bolton, Pete Werner (who should be ahead of a lot of dudes on this list but its including edge rusher types), Dylan Moses for "starting" spots.

 

Jabril Cox is a guy who should also be in consideration along with Monty Rice.

 

I don't see the Surratt thing. He has flash plays but he is extremely raw and at times plays soft. But he is a good developmental guy (but we have two of those in Hudson and Holcomb).

Hard seeing RR and JDR passing on Collins, Davis, Werner or Parsons with a clean background check.

If Moses had gotten back on track I would possibly have had him first or second on my list. I would have Cox as a starter, call him my crush

 

If they could grab one of those guys early and be able to land Rice day 3 would be sweet.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[clskinsfan]

53 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

For me, for us, the candidates are:

 

Zaven Collins, Jamin Davis, Nick Bolton, Pete Werner (who should be ahead of a lot of dudes on this list but its including edge rusher types), Dylan Moses for "starting" spots.

 

Jabril Cox is a guy who should also be in consideration along with Monty Rice.

 

I don't see the Surratt thing. He has flash plays but he is extremely raw and at times plays soft. But he is a good developmental guy (but we have two of those in Hudson and Holcomb).

 

Ojulari, JOK, Ossai, Browning aren't really fits for what this team needs inside. 

Jabril Cox is the most underrated LB in this draft IMO. I have him as my LB 4.

[fearlessNelms]

4 hours ago, Redskin21502 said:

If we got Zaven Collins and Brevin Jordan with our first 2 picks I'd be as happy as when we got Chase last year. It would help us in 2021 and for the next decade. Instant impact and great fits.

 

Don't know if I'd be Chase Young kind of happy, but I certainly wouldn't hate this.

[Anselmheifer]

1 minute ago, fearlessNelms said:

 

Don't know if I'd be Chase Young kind of happy, but I certainly wouldn't hate this.

I was happy about Brevin Jordan’s lackluster pro day. I was expecting more. I think it’s possible he falls to our pick in the 3rd now. 

[DWinzit]

1 minute ago, Anselmheifer said:

I was happy about Brevin Jordan’s lackluster pro day. I was expecting more. I think it’s possible he falls to our pick in the 3rd now. 

I can appreciate that! 

TE's the last few years have been overdrafted. My gut is he Tremble and Freier will be gone before the 3rd. It would be awesome if one of them reached us in the third.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I was happy about Brevin Jordan’s lackluster pro day. I was expecting more. I think it’s possible he falls to our pick in the 3rd now. 

 

I thought he'd run in the 4.6 range just like he did.    Not sure if he goes in the third.  Maybe.  Don't love reading about Dallas sniffing around him hard. 

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I thought he'd run in the 4.6 range.    Not sure if he goes in the third.  Maybe.  Don't love reading about Dallas sniffing him hard. 

There's Tremble, who IMO has the best hands of all TEs.  He plucks the ball out of the air!