4-3 Starting Lineup

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

In theory, that's all we have left. TE, maybe another WR opposite TMac, secondary (possible starter, definitely depth), maybe RB.

 

This is probably the most complete team we've fielded in a long time. We definitely need to luck into 2nd and 3rd Oline talent being at our draft spot though. If we have a good season and pick back half of the first, then I'd be all about Oline.

 

TE. OL, CB.  Maybe a MLB.  Veteran WR.

 

If we have as bad a year as just about every mock draft geek expects than we'd have a good shot at a really good LT.    

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

TE. OL, CB.  Maybe a MLB.  Veteran WR.

 

If we have as bad a year as just about every mock draft geek expects than we'd have a good shot at a really good LT.    

We've been so spoiled at LT for decades, that it just doesn't feel right being without.

[Going Commando]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

In theory, that's all we have left. TE, maybe another WR opposite TMac, secondary (possible starter, definitely depth), maybe RB.

 

This is probably the most complete team we've fielded in a long time. We definitely need to luck into 2nd and 3rd Oline talent being at our draft spot though. If we have a good season and pick back half of the first, then I'd be all about Oline.

 

Offensive skill positions plus secondary is kind of a lot... plus the OL as you say.  Secondary is a seven or eight man group and the OL is five and skill rotation is six or seven.

 

This isn't a good team yet.  It's a premier position group and a safety plus a promising young QB and WR.  It's better than our previous teams because that bar is low, but it's still a lot more successful building away from championship level competitiveness.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Offensive skill positions plus secondary is kind of a lot... plus the OL as you say.  Secondary is a seven or eight man group and the OL is five and skill rotation is six or seven.

 

This isn't a good team yet.  It's a premier position group and a safety plus a promising young QB and WR.  It's better than our previous teams because that bar is low, but it's still a lot more successful building away from championship level competitiveness.

I could just be a little higher on some of the players than you are, but I get your point.

 

However, yes. It's a very low bar.

 

Heck, when's the last time we really had 2 legit starters at safety?

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Rivera just now on 980.  The question he responded to on this was who are jumping out to you in camp that others might not be thinking of.

 

Hyped Pierre-Louis at LB.  Another beat guy said recently the coaching staff keeps bringing him up so there might be something to it.

 

At WR he hyped Steve Sims and Cam Sims as for standing out in practice.

 

Said Apke looking good but also has to come a long way on some things (or something like that)

 

Hyped Montez Sweat.

 

Said S. Charles has looked good.

 

[Anselmheifer]

22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Rivera just now on 980.  The question he responded to on this was who are jumping out to you in camp that others might not be thinking of.

 

Hyped Pierre-Louis at LB.  Another beat guy said recently the coaching staff keeps bringing him up so there might be something to it.

 

At WR he hyped Steve Sims and Cam Sims as for standing out in practice.

 

Said Apke looking good but also has to come a long way on some things (or something like that)

 

Hyped Montez Sweat.

 

Said S. Charles has looked good.

 

Would be so huge for us to have Sweat step up and Charles pan out as a legitimate top 15 LT. 
 

I wonder what KPL’s natural position would be for us. Can he play SAM? It looks to me that our top 3 LB prospects, Foster, Holcomb and KPL are all the same size and all better suited for WILL or MIKE. 

[Anselmheifer]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Two gapping doesn't necessarily mean playing as an A gap front side run defender.  Allen can two gap from multiple alignments, including as a back side run defender.  One of the things he went back to demonstrate his senior year (when he won every major defensive award in the country) was that he wasn't just a penetrating IDL pass rush specialist, but also a high end run defender.  I'd have complete confidence in him if they ask him two cover his B and C gap.

 

That NFL insider is selling him short as a pass rusher though.  He is a very skilled rusher and has double digit sack potential.  His first three seasons don't look all that different from Calais Campbell's, and he has the potential to play a similar role for a defense.

 

I agree with most of this. Although I will say that Calais Campbell isn’t a good analogy for Allen. Allen doesn’t really possess any elite athletic traits. He wasn’t explosive in any of his testing. He doesn’t have the elite length that Calais Campbell has. Allen has always been a guy where the sum was more than the individual parts, but I’m worried that that limits his ceiling in the NFL. 
 

and he’s had a lot of injuries. At first, of the season ending type, but more recently, smaller more nagging injuries. 
 

Im starting to feel like our best case scenario for Allen might be that he posts a breakout 11 or 12 sack season and that we can offload him for a first or a player, like DeForest Buckner. I don’t think we are going to be able to pay everyone on that line and to me, Allen is the odd man out. I’d rather keep Ioannidis, who is just generally better, and Payne, who is younger and more explosive. 

 

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I don’t think we are going to be able to pay everyone on that line

 

 

I don’t get the buzz about dropping lineman, specifically Allen, over financial reasons.

 

Kerrigan is in his last yr

Allen is under the 5 yr option next year. Don’t have to pay him for 2 yrs

Settle will need a new deal in 2yrs

Matt does not need to get paid for 3yrs

Pick up Payne’s option and he can wait 3yrs

Sweat – 4yrs

Young – 5yrs

 

That is spaced out well, and outside of Settle and Kerrigan, Allen will be the first one up for payment. I don’t see them breaking up the strength of this team at the first opportunity. They will re-sign Allen. I think Kerrigan and Settle will be the ones you will have to worry about losing for financial purposes. Settle will want to make an impact, and that will come alongside a raise. Kerrigan would have to be cool making 5 million. Either that or walk. They wont pay him 10+ Mill again.

 

You’ll have a choice to make after 3rd yr with both Payne and Matt coming due, but at that point you already had 3 years of relatively cheap D-line with Sweat, Young, Allen, Payne, Matt, and Brantley. The only ones getting big money are Allen and Kerrigan for a year. That is an absolute steal on the financial side. Why would we be interested in breaking that up after 1 year?

 

I am fine with the argument over player skill/ability that you touched on, but the financials don’t look like a problem to me at all. In fact its an absolute bonus. Like when you order a whopper, and end up getting a double whopper with brains by accident. Heaven.

 

I’ll be the first to agree we can't afford to pay big money to Allen, Payne, Matt, Sweat, and Young, but that is 5 yrs from now. I’d be much more worried about Haskins next deal before all of this.

[Anselmheifer]

8 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I don’t get the buzz about dropping lineman, specifically Allen, over financial reasons.

 

Kerrigan is in his last yr

Allen is under the 5 yr option next year. Don’t have to pay him for 2 yrs

Settle will need a new deal in 2yrs

Matt does not need to get paid for 3yrs

Pick up Payne’s option and he can wait 3yrs

Sweat – 4yrs

Young – 5yrs

 

That is spaced out well, and outside of Settle and Kerrigan, Allen will be the first one up for payment. I don’t see them breaking up the strength of this team at the first opportunity. They will re-sign Allen. I think Kerrigan and Settle will be the ones you will have to worry about losing for financial purposes. Settle will want to make an impact, and that will come alongside a raise. Kerrigan would have to be cool making 5 million. Either that or walk. They wont pay him 10+ Mill again.

 

You’ll have a choice to make after 3rd yr with both Payne and Matt coming due, but at that point you already had 3 years of relatively cheap D-line with Sweat, Young, Allen, Payne, Matt, and Brantley. The only ones getting big money are Allen and Kerrigan for a year. That is an absolute steal on the financial side. Why would we be interested in breaking that up after 1 year?

 

I am fine with the argument over player skill/ability that you touched on, but the financials don’t look like a problem to me at all. In fact its an absolute bonus. Like when you order a whopper, and end up getting a double whopper with brains by accident. Heaven.

 

I’ll be the first to agree we can't afford to pay big money to Allen, Payne, Matt, Sweat, and Young, but that is 5 yrs from now. I’d be much more worried about Haskins next deal before all of this.

Maybe you’re right. In my mind it’s also about resource investment. With the rest of our DL pieces, of I could swap out Allen with a similarly skilled CB, OT, or TE, I think that improves the team. That might not be possible. He might not recoup a draft pick that high and player for player trades are more of a rarity. 
 

To be clear, I like Allen. I just am not sure that we couldn’t swap him out for a better piece. 

[Koolblue13]

25 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

Maybe you’re right. In my mind it’s also about resource investment. With the rest of our DL pieces, of I could swap out Allen with a similarly skilled CB, OT, or TE, I think that improves the team. That might not be possible. He might not recoup a draft pick that high and player for player trades are more of a rarity. 
 

To be clear, I like Allen. I just am not sure that we couldn’t swap him out for a better piece. 

He's the leader of the defense and possibly the entire locker room. That was the first person Chase went to after he was drafted. Like he reported to him.

 

This 7/8 guys on our Dline are here through next season. Enjoy it. I don't know why people keep wanting to dump talent and **** up a possibly special unit.

2 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Would be so huge for us to have Sweat step up and Charles pan out as a legitimate top 15 LT. 
 

I wonder what KPL’s natural position would be for us. Can he play SAM? It looks to me that our top 3 LB prospects, Foster, Holcomb and KPL are all the same size and all better suited for WILL or MIKE. 

SDH is probably our best LBer.

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Rivera just now on 980.  The question he responded to on this was who are jumping out to you in camp that others might not be thinking of.

 

Hyped Pierre-Louis at LB.  Another beat guy said recently the coaching staff keeps bringing him up so there might be something to it.

 

At WR he hyped Steve Sims and Cam Sims as for standing out in practice.

 

Said Apke looking good but also has to come a long way on some things (or something like that)

 

Hyped Montez Sweat.

 

Said S. Charles has looked good.

 

Nice. Apke is my boy. I loved watching him bail out Norman last year a bunch of times when he was in. He's lightning fast too, if he can improve his awareness, I think he could be a perfect center fielder. Great looking 3 safety zone with Collins and Davis too.

 

If Cam can step up, that would be huge for us. He's that big possession type with down field speed too. Would be nice to see that come ut of nowhere and not have to rely on the rookie.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Would be so huge for us to have Sweat step up and Charles pan out as a legitimate top 15 LT. 
 

I wonder what KPL’s natural position would be for us. Can he play SAM? It looks to me that our top 3 LB prospects, Foster, Holcomb and KPL are all the same size and all better suited for WILL or MIKE. 

 

I liked Charles before the draft.  I've just become wary about dudes with multiple offenses in college staying out of trouble in the pros.

 

In a recent Keim postcast he said:

 

Reuben Foster they see as an outside LB.  Assume weak side but he didn't say. 

Holcomb and T. Davis are the guys they see who can play all three spots.

Bostic and Sean Dion Hamilton they look at as purely inside.

 

Sheehan doubled down later after Rivera that KPL is the dude they keep bringing up.  I'd presume KPL would play outside.  

 

[Fresh8686]

I told y'all to keep an eye on KPL ever since we picked him up earlier this year. He's more suited to the outside and interestingly enough he played the same Viper Position for Boston College that Khaleke Hudson played in Michigan's defense and both with the same Def. Coordinator.

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

 

 

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Would be so huge for us to have Sweat step up and Charles pan out as a legitimate top 15 LT. 
 

I wonder what KPL’s natural position would be for us. Can he play SAM? It looks to me that our top 3 LB prospects, Foster, Holcomb and KPL are all the same size and all better suited for WILL or MIKE. 

 

Because of his size (6'0 230) I'd be pretty wary of KPL playing SAM on anything other than an obvious passing down. IMO He doesn't have the size to go up against OL to stack and shed at the LOS on running plays as a SAM would do. Also, in PFF KPL has a huge gap between his run defense (61.9) and his coverage (91.0). To me he's more of a guy you'd have in as a hybrid LB/S in a nickel package. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I liked Charles before the draft.  I've just become wary about dudes with multiple offenses in college staying out of trouble in the pros.

 

In a recent Keim postcast he said:

 

Reuben Foster they see as an outside LB.  Assume weak side but he didn't say. 

Holcomb and T. Davis are the guys they see who can play all three spots.

Bostic and Sean Dion Hamilton they look at as purely inside.

 

Sheehan doubled down later after Rivera that KPL is the dude they keep bringing up.  I'd presume KPL would play outside.  

 

 

I definitely agree that Foster is a WILL. He has the athleticism, instincts, and play making ability to thrive in that role. I think he could play MIKE but I don't think that's his most natural position. IIRC when they were both at Bama, SDH was an inside backer who had play calling and alignment responsibilities and Foster was the heat seeking missile play maker. 

[Anselmheifer]

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Because of his size (6'0 230) I'd be pretty wary of KPL playing SAM on anything other than an obvious passing down. IMO He doesn't have the size to go up against OL to stack and shed at the LOS on running plays as a SAM would do. Also, in PFF KPL has a huge gap between his run defense (61.9) and his coverage (91.0). To me he's more of a guy you'd have in as a hybrid LB/S in a nickel package. 

 

 

I definitely agree that Foster is a WILL. He has the athleticism, instincts, and play making ability to thrive in that role. I think he could play MIKE but I don't think that's his most natural position. IIRC when they were both at Bama, SDH was an inside backer who had play calling and alignment responsibilities and Foster was the heat seeking missile play maker. 

This is all of our backers. Even Thomas Davis is 6’1” with 32 inch arms and weighed 230 at the combine. 
 

At this rate, if we drafted Micah Parsons, he, at 6’4” and 240, would be our biggest LB my a mile. 
 

In terms of having the length, JHC would have been our most prototype SAM. 6’4” with arms longer than 35”.

 

The coaches haven’t mentioned SDH at all. They have talked about Holcomb a good bit and seem to be raping about KPL. I wonder if SDH is getting lost in the sauce. 

[mistertim]

22 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

This is all of our backers. Even Thomas Davis is 6’1” with 32 inch arms and weighed 230 at the combine. 
 

At this rate, if we drafted Micah Parsons, he, at 6’4” and 240, would be our biggest LB my a mile. 
 

In terms of having the length, JHC would have been our most prototype SAM. 6’4” with arms longer than 35”.

 

The coaches haven’t mentioned SDH at all. They have talked about Holcomb a good bit and seem to be raping about KPL. I wonder if SDH is getting lost in the sauce. 

 

Well, Reuben Foster is listed as 6'1 245 so Parsons is taller but not "bigger" overall. 

 

As far as the rest of your post I'd mostly agree. JHC has really good length, but in the only 2 seasons they have number for him (2017, 2018) PFF gave him an abysmal run defense grade of 34.6 and 30.5, respectively. His coverage wasn't really all that much better at 42.6 and 51.4, respectively. I'm not going to hold my breath for him suddenly becoming a legit starter.

 

Yeah I've noticed that about SDH as well. The previous regime seemed to rave about him, and PFF gave him an outstanding coverage grade last season (89.7) though his run defense was lacking (57.6). But the newer regime has seemed a bit more quiet about him. 

 

Unfortunately I don't think we really have any "prototype" 4-3 MIKE and SAM guys (I think Foster is a prototype WILL). That's one reason I'd LOVE to get Parsons in the next draft (if we can't get Sewell). I think he's a dude who could step in immediately and be an elite MIKE from the jump. His playing style and instincts reminds me of Patrick Willis coming out of college. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I liked Charles before the draft.  I've just become wary about dudes with multiple offenses in college staying out of trouble in the pros.

 

In a recent Keim postcast he said:

 

Reuben Foster they see as an outside LB.  Assume weak side but he didn't say. 

Holcomb and T. Davis are the guys they see who can play all three spots.

Bostic and Sean Dion Hamilton they look at as purely inside.

 

Sheehan doubled down later after Rivera that KPL is the dude they keep bringing up.  I'd presume KPL would play outside.  

 

 

Similar to our front 4, our middle 3 is a bit loaded,  though not as much, but seems like a decent LB or 2 might get cut and caught in a numbers game.

[Koolblue13]

 

I know this is older and oh the optimism of the mid 2018 season, but Payne is amazing and young and they said the chains are coming off. Pretty fun to watch this and look at our current personnel.

[Going Commando]

On 8/14/2020 at 8:54 AM, Anselmheifer said:

I agree with most of this. Although I will say that Calais Campbell isn’t a good analogy for Allen. Allen doesn’t really possess any elite athletic traits. He wasn’t explosive in any of his testing. He doesn’t have the elite length that Calais Campbell has. Allen has always been a guy where the sum was more than the individual parts, but I’m worried that that limits his ceiling in the NFL. 
 

and he’s had a lot of injuries. At first, of the season ending type, but more recently, smaller more nagging injuries. 
 

Im starting to feel like our best case scenario for Allen might be that he posts a breakout 11 or 12 sack season and that we can offload him for a first or a player, like DeForest Buckner. I don’t think we are going to be able to pay everyone on that line and to me, Allen is the odd man out. I’d rather keep Ioannidis, who is just generally better, and Payne, who is younger and more explosive.

 

He's similarly productive to Campbell, if not via winning exactly the same way Campbell does.  Campbell beats you with brutal hands and length.  Allen wins with athleticism and power.  I do think he possesses elite athleticism for a 300 pounder.  His ball get-off is really good, he's a flexible bender, and his body control is spectacular.  Remember this play?

 

 

One of the best sacks I've ever seen.  I wish that gif showed the first steps he used to smoke that LG.  Just a really great inside jab step to outside cut synced with perfect hands.  When you look at how he piled up all of those sacks at Alabama, a lot of it came on stunts/twists.  That's a testament to his athleticism.   He's got a combo of power with quickness that is problematic for both inside and outside blockers.  Plus he's a high skill player with elite instincts.  We've been high on DaRon Payne's breakout potential in this new scheme, and rightfully so.  But the circumstances are just as favorable to Allen.  Putting him in a system where he where he can penetrate and stunt and get some freedom to play-make is ideal for what he does at a special level.  It's how you get the Bronko Nagurski/Lombardi/Bednarik award version of him.

 

If Jonathan Allen has a great season with 11 or 12 sacks, I'm 100% keeping him.  You combine that level of production with his versatility and his leadership quality and you have a true foundation player for a great defense.  The 49ers trading Buckner came down to money--they traded a second round pick for Dee Ford and gave him a big contract and gave a big contract to Arik Armstead which left them without enough cap room to get a long term deal done with Buckner.  It's unquestionably weakened them in the middle of their championship window, and I'm sure they would have kept him if they could have.  Those specific circumstances don't really exist here.  Our edge rushers are recent first round picks on rookie deals and Ioannidis is playing on a bargain extension.  And to be frank, we don't have nearly as good or expensive a roster as they do.

 

When you're trying to build a contender, first and foremost, keep your best players.  Your leaders and guys who can play a variety of roles to make you multiple.  Figure out how to make the money work in the margins of the roster with more limited and replaceable guys.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

They did trade Buckner, but immediately drafted Javon Kinlaw to replace him.  Kinlaw is far cheaper.

 

I like the move, it does hurt them short term, but the move means that in maybe a year or two Kinlaw will be close to Buckner's level of play, at a fraction of the cost, and it lets them spend that Buckner money to retain other quality players.

 

I applaud the move.  It was not an easy decision, losing Buckner.

[Koolblue13]

I like that we are following the Eagles lead on defense somewhat. A lot of Dlinemen to rotate, so come the fourth quarter, you still have fresh fast guys playing and spend more money on quality safeties than CBs. Allows you to keep more of your cap to retain players.

[Anselmheifer]

 

About 2/3 of the way through here, he takes about Rivera’s discussion of the LB’s during his presser. Sounds unsettled, since they haven’t had pads on, and might also be LB by committee. But, apparently, Rivera said they view Cole Holcomb more as a SAM. I think that could be a really good way to get our best players on the field. 
 

Imagine our speed in the front 7 if we can get Holcomb, KPL or Davis and Foster on the field at the same time. 

[Koolblue13]

SDH is the fastest LBer I believe.

[Jericho]

19 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

SDH is the fastest LBer I believe.

 

I'd have to imagine its Cole Holcomb based on 40 times

[Anselmheifer]

26 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

SDH is the fastest LBer I believe.

Foster and Holcomb and KPL are all 4.5 guys. I’m not sure SDH is that fast. But he is fast to some degree and is heady, which allows him to play fast.