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Serious Question: Do you regret letting Cousins go?

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5 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I was going to ignore this comment until i realized it was likely directly at me - or my comment. So here you go - 

 

First no one that I have seen as called him "elite". If they have they are not being realistic. However, it is fair to say he is a very good QB, which you seem to also have a probem with. 

 

As for what is relevant - lol I can't believe you even said that the teams score is irrelevant. This is not a one person sport. You have teammates for a reason. You also have STs and Def that has to do their job. They gave up 27 2nd half points!!  You can't expect even an Aaron Rogers to overcome that very often if at all.

 

Also, I could easily say right back - As a defense - if your offense scores 30, your job is to keep it under 30 - period. The fact is - and what my point was - 30 pts should win most games. The offense played well enough to win. The D and STs let them down - it's 3 phases of a game for a reason. How bad was that missed ex pt.

 

I know, none of it matters - it's 100% on the QB - if the defense gives up 150, the offense better score 151! Right! If the STs makes gaff after gaff, the QB is supposed to overcome that! No matter what! That's a pretty ridiculous take.

 

My one and only response to this. No value in going on.  


Im not sure why the vitriol was necessary here. You are more than entitled to your own opinion. It’s odd that you would take such offense to a relatively simple take, and certainly one that wasn’t directed to anyone in particular. 
 

The story is quite simple at this point with KC. He’s a good qb ( possibly even great) that has elite level statistics, but can’t win the big games regardless of venue or significance. ( which just so happen to be against winning teams). For this reason, I think my opinion of not paying him that contact has been validated. The fact that we have sucked since the trade is irrelevant. We aren’t judging him in any other statistic other than his ability to produce a win against the best, because we know all the other criteria has been met. Each of the losses against winning teams have had diverse circumstances, but most of them had similar situations where he had the opportunity to succeed. When you have the opportunity to win the game, as a Kirk did last weekend, you have got to eventually come through. The best qbs usually do. I know the defense could be better. The special teams could be better. Over the years the defense in particular in Min has been consistently great. ( special teams not so much). Unfortunately, KC has consistently failed to produce a win under the aforementioned pretenses over the course of his career, and that is what has and will continue to define him until the narrative changes. 

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The Vikings have been doing a lot better than The Redskins since they signed Cousins.  And who exactly has the FO spent all this money on that they didn't want to give to Kirk? 

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15 minutes ago, Bishop Hammer said:

The Vikings have been doing a lot better than The Redskins since they signed Cousins.  And who exactly has the FO spent all this money on that they didn't want to give to Kirk? 

Edited by Skin'emAlive
Straying off topic

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1 hour ago, Bishop Hammer said:

The Vikings have been doing a lot better than The Redskins since they signed Cousins.  And who exactly has the FO spent all this money on that they didn't want to give to Kirk? 


well they gave a lot of it to Alex Smith. A worse QB at a worse stage of his career. 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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7 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:


Im not sure why the vitriol was necessary here. You are more than entitled to your own opinion. It’s odd that you would take such offense to a relatively simple take, and certainly one that wasn’t directed to anyone in particular. 
 

The story is quite simple at this point with KC. He’s a good qb ( possibly even great) that has elite level statistics, but can’t win the big games regardless of venue or significance. ( which just so happen to be against winning teams). For this reason, I think my opinion of not paying him that contact has been validated. The fact that we have sucked since the trade is irrelevant. We aren’t judging him in any other statistic other than his ability to produce a win against the best, because we know all the other criteria has been met. Each of the losses against winning teams have had diverse circumstances, but most of them had similar situations where he had the opportunity to succeed. When you have the opportunity to win the game, as a Kirk did last weekend, you have got to eventually come through. The best qbs usually do. I know the defense could be better. The special teams could be better. Over the years the defense in particular in Min has been consistently great. ( special teams not so much). Unfortunately, KC has consistently failed to produce a win under the aforementioned pretenses over the course of his career, and that is what has and will continue to define him until the narrative changes. 

 

Well I wasn't going to respond past the first one - but it looks like I must.  And please finish, it' starts a little rough but gets better. You may want to start by relaxing a bit my friend. If you think what I posted is "vitriol", all I can say is just wow. I bit of sarcasm and maybe even a little snarky, sure I will give you that - and it was intentional considering the statement you made was a cheap shot meant to invalidate anyone elses opinion to the contrary. But fair enough I can go the other if you can and it looks like the above you have done that. Ok, now that we have that out of the way....  🙂

 

What you stated above is completely different than what your original response was. I actually mostly agree with what you stated above - although I think part of the criticism is a bit unfair. He was on a really bad team here in Wash - think Archie Manning - wins despite the team around but never nearly enough. But in terms of pure wins and losses I can see the argument being made and have made it myself at times. 

 

Now he is at Minn. I would disagree the D has been consistently great. Last year in fact the first half of the season was bad - not just a little bad but really bad. Down the stretch they were much better. I don't have time to look at all the stats - but just looking at points - first 8 gms they were giving up over 24 pts/gm. The last 8 they were giving up 18. That is almost a TD a gm difference.  So in Kirk's time there - he had a good D the last half of last yr. The first half last yr no, and this year no. He has had a better run game this year. 

 

In the end, and I posted this elsewhere on this thread - the only way he exercises the demons is to win a few Playoff games.

 

As for him signing here and any kind of validation - I am not sure there is anyone who wanted to see the team pay him the almost $30M/yr Minn did. You have a lot of company there. What is irritating is that they did not pay him earlier when they could have gotten him much cheaper - but even more they let him go without getting any kind of compensation for him. Again, I do not think you will find many that disagree with letting him go once the team backed themselves into a $30M/yr corner. But they could have had him much more reasonably - or once they decided fair or not he was not the answer here, they should have traded him and gotten something back to help the team. I believe that is the true frustration of most fans - even Kirk's biggest supporters. 

 

                                                 

Edited by goskins10
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2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

As for him signing here and any kind of validation - I am not sure there is anyone who wanted to see the team pay him the almost $30M/yr Minn did. You have a lot of company there. What is irritating is that they did not pay him earlier when they could have gotten him much cheaper - but even more they let him go without getting any kind of compensation for him. Again, I do not think you will find many that disagree with letting him go once the team backed themselves into a $30M/yr corner. But they could have had him much more reasonably - or once they decided fair or not he was not the answer here, they should have traded him and gotten something back to help the team. I believe that is the true frustration of most fans - even Kirk's biggest supporters. 

 

                                                 

 

 

This is where I think the biggest disconnect is between both sides of this 'debate.'  We're all a lot closer to the line than most think, the debate just gets heated and taken out of context. 

 

You could take this paragraph and i think about 80% of the people in this thread... regardless of their stance, would fit into this same narrative.  The main factor we run into is that people are blurring their visions of what is meant by 'regret letting Cousin's go.'  There is a lot more to this then just a simple yes or no answer, because it requires breaking down what 'letting him go' means.  Do you consider letting him go to be the whole process of messing it up by Dan/Bruce?  Do you consider letting him go to be one of the many situations that ultimately led to him not wearing a Redskins uniform anymore?  Do you consider letting him to go ONLY be the factor of us not be willing to match the deal that Minnesota gave him?  There are so many factors that went into what caused Kirk to not remain a part of this team, and so many definitions of 'letting him go.'  

 

Personally, like I said earlier, we messed up early on and ultimately Kirk was ready to move on.  I also think Kirk has his part in it.  He has to want to be here, in order for him to stay here.  By the end, fault being on multiple people, that want was not there, and only a godfather type offer may have swayed that.  


 

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3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Well I wasn't going to respond past the first one - but it looks like I must.  And please finish, it' starts a little rough but gets better. You may want to start by relaxing a bit my friend. If you think what I posted is "vitriol", all I can say is just wow. I bit of sarcasm and maybe even a little snarky, sure I will give you that - and it was intentional considering the statement you made was a cheap shot meant to invalidate anyone elses opinion to the contrary. But fair enough I can go the other if you can and it looks like the above you have done that. Ok, now that we have that out of the way....  🙂

 

What you stated above is completely different than what your original response was. I actually mostly agree with what you stated above - although I think part of the criticism is a bit unfair. He was on a really bad team here in Wash - think Archie Manning - wins despite the team around but never nearly enough. But in terms of pure wins and losses I can see the argument being made and have made it myself at times. 

 

Now he is at Minn. I would disagree the D has been consistently great. Last year in fact the first half of the season was bad - not just a little bad but really bad. Down the stretch they were much better. I don't have time to look at all the stats - but just looking at points - first 8 gms they were giving up over 24 pts/gm. The last 8 they were giving up 18. That is almost a TD a gm difference.  So in Kirk's time there - he had a good D the last half of last yr. The first half last yr no, and this year no. He has had a better run game this year. 

 

In the end, and I posted this elsewhere on this thread - the only way he exercises the demons is to win a few Playoff games.

 

As for him signing here and any kind of validation - I am not sure there is anyone who wanted to see the team pay him the almost $30M/yr Minn did. You have a lot of company there. What is irritating is that they did not pay him earlier when they could have gotten him much cheaper - but even more they let him go without getting any kind of compensation for him. Again, I do not think you will find many that disagree with letting him go once the team backed themselves into a $30M/yr corner. But they could have had him much more reasonably - or once they decided fair or not he was not the answer here, they should have traded him and gotten something back to help the team. I believe that is the true frustration of most fans - even Kirk's biggest supporters. 

 

                                                 


Kirk had a team here that won the division twice. One of which he was responsible for. It wasn’t a terrible roster his entire tenure, albeit one that was terribly mismanaged. ( Haslett/3-4 Def). He has been to the playoffs once, and was thoroughly outclassed by Rodgers. Asking for a multiple playoff wins out of KC would be a reach. Let’s start at winning against the best in the regular season first. 
 

My opinion stands that if you are an elite quarterback as per the contract you are given, then you are asked to put up more points than the opposition, and the number is irrelevant. Some continue to rise to the occasion ( Rodgers, Wilson, Brady) after being given such a contract. Some are tbd ( Ryan). Others have destroyed the team (Flacco, E Manning, soon to be Prescott/Goff/Wentz). 
 

If the question is : did we make a mistake not moving him after it was apparent he did not want to be here AND wanted the highest paycheck, then absolutely. Bruce is exceptional at his job /s. But if the question is did we make a mistake letting him go, then no. I see some things in a guy like Haskins I never saw in Kirk. Maybe it’s moxie, or fortitude, or fearlessness. You could say it’s an attitude that says, give me the ball, I’m going to score. It’s the difference between an Otto Porter and a Paul Pierce. Not saying Dwayne will ever get to the elite level, though I’m hopeful. But I am saying that when it’s apparent a guy doesn’t have the ability to win against the best, it’s time to blow it up and try again until you get it right. Jax made the right ( albeit monetarily difficult) decision to move in from Foles and give the reigns to Minshew. That man has it, and more often than not, it’s apparent early on. 

Edited by Skin'emAlive
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On 12/4/2019 at 5:21 PM, skinsmania123 said:

@JSSkinzYou can say that stuff about any game in the NFL.  Mistakes, blown coverages are part of the game.  Yeah Wilson may not do that again, just like Wilson will probably not broadcast, let alone throw an INT in the SB, on the two yard line, when he has a RB like Marshawn Lynch.....if he ever gets the chance again.  And I don't think it will be this year because their D is not good enough.  And I bet Rodgers won't take the beatdown he took from San Fran two weeks ago where he looked pedestrian at best. 

 

And what is the narrative on Cousin's after this particular game. I am listening to NLF network, and ESPN and what I am hearing is 3 TD's from Cousin's plus a FG should have been sufficient to win that game for any QB, on the road, in that particularly loud stadium.  But if that QB's defense gives up 200 yards on the ground allows 37 points, chances are, no matter who the QB is your going to lose.  

 

You know what the story is not over yet. I thought the play calling by the Vikes at the end of game was horrible.  But that is part of the game too.  Mistakes.  The reason they did not punt with over two minutes left is because their D sucks. I am going out on a limb and say despite the Vikings D, LOL.....they will get into the playoffs, and probably make a run. I would love to see a rematch in Seattle.  

 

 

 

Exactly.  If we are going to play the game of "what if" we can look at the 3rd down throw to an open received for a first down that was deflected at the line by a Seattle defender.  So I agree with most of what you said.  Still I gotta believe if it was Russell Wilson and not Kirk in that spot he would have found a way to get it done.

Edited by Darrell Green Fan

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43 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Exactly.  If we are going to play the game of "what if" we can look at the 3rd down throw to an open received for a first down that was deflected at the line by a Seattle defender.  So I agree with most of what you said.  Still I gotta believe if it was Russell Wilson and not Kirk in that spot he would have found a way to get it done.

Yeah.  The albatross of" can't get it done in primetime against top tier teams" is going to drag on.  That is the problem when things get out the public domain.  Even if he gets to a SB and wins, if in a year or so there is even a semblance of reverting, they are going to go back to the same narrative.  People get labeled.

 

 Russell Wilson is getting it done this year for sure.  He  has had his own issues the last few years due to deficiencies on the team overall IMO.  Russell Wilson, is if people do not know this, a guy who worked with a Sport's psychologists when he came into the NFL.  I have no idea if Pete Carroll had anything to do with that.  But when he was mic'd up I was laughing my head off at the NLP speak coming out of his mouth, in the last game.  Announcers were saying it was cringe-worthy, but it works.  And he has always said these things when he is mic'd up.  This just him.

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49 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

But when he was mic'd up I was laughing my head off at the NLP speak coming out of his mouth, in the last game.  Announcers were saying it was cringe-worthy, but it works.  And he has always said these things when he is mic'd up.  This just him.


Russel Wilson very much appears to have some cornball in him like Kirk, which is no surprise they workout together in the off-season. That’s the great thing about sports though, cornball or not, if you produce, the team will respect you.
 

Wilson very much is about positive energy and consistently programming his subconscious mind to be prepared for anything that comes his way. I think you posted previously a while back about the NLP methods, interesting stuff that is very effective. 

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2 minutes ago, wit33 said:


Russel Wilson very much appears to have some cornball in him like Kirk, which is no surprise they workout together in the off-season. 
 

I had no idea they worked out together in the offseason. Wow that is great. Thanks for the tidbit. 

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1 hour ago, skinsmania123 said:

I had no idea they worked out together in the offseason. Wow that is great. Thanks for the tidbit. 

They're actually friends, Russell talked about it after the game the other night.

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56 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

They're actually friends, Russell talked about it after the game the other night.

That is really great.  if your going to get better and better and your goal is to win a SB someday that is great company to keep.   I love how positive Wilson is, and It goes a long way towards being successful. 

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20 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

Yeah.  The albatross of" can't get it done in primetime against top tier teams" is going to drag on.  That is the problem when things get out the public domain.  Even if he gets to a SB and wins, if in a year or so there is even a semblance of reverting, they are going to go back to the same narrative.  People get labeled.

 

 Russell Wilson is getting it done this year for sure.  He  has had his own issues the last few years due to deficiencies on the team overall IMO.  Russell Wilson, is if people do not know this, a guy who worked with a Sport's psychologists when he came into the NFL.  I have no idea if Pete Carroll had anything to do with that.  But when he was mic'd up I was laughing my head off at the NLP speak coming out of his mouth, in the last game.  Announcers were saying it was cringe-worthy, but it works.  And he has always said these things when he is mic'd up.  This just him.

 

I'm still a Kirk guy but that label is very well deserved. Russell Wilson has been one of the most clutch QBs in the final minutes for as long as he's been in the league. Even when he struggles for 58 minutes there was never a time when I didn't feel that he would pull the game out in the end. He's got "it" and that's critical to being a really good QB.  And that's why Kirk is not and probably never will be a really good QB.  But he's sure better than what the Redskins have had and what the have now.

 

 

Edited by Darrell Green Fan

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On 12/6/2019 at 10:37 AM, Skin'emAlive said:


Kirk had a team here that won the division twice. One of which he was responsible for. It wasn’t a terrible roster his entire tenure, albeit one that was terribly mismanaged. ( Haslett/3-4 Def). He has been to the playoffs once, and was thoroughly outclassed by Rodgers. Asking for a multiple playoff wins out of KC would be a reach. Let’s start at winning against the best in the regular season first. 
 

My opinion stands that if you are an elite quarterback as per the contract you are given, then you are asked to put up more points than the opposition, and the number is irrelevant. Some continue to rise to the occasion ( Rodgers, Wilson, Brady) after being given such a contract. Some are tbd ( Ryan). Others have destroyed the team (Flacco, E Manning, soon to be Prescott/Goff/Wentz). 
 

If the question is : did we make a mistake not moving him after it was apparent he did not want to be here AND wanted the highest paycheck, then absolutely. Bruce is exceptional at his job /s. But if the question is did we make a mistake letting him go, then no. I see some things in a guy like Haskins I never saw in Kirk. Maybe it’s moxie, or fortitude, or fearlessness. You could say it’s an attitude that says, give me the ball, I’m going to score. It’s the difference between an Otto Porter and a Paul Pierce. Not saying Dwayne will ever get to the elite level, though I’m hopeful. But I am saying that when it’s apparent a guy doesn’t have the ability to win against the best, it’s time to blow it up and try again until you get it right. Jax made the right ( albeit monetarily difficult) decision to move in from Foles and give the reigns to Minshew. That man has it, and more often than not, it’s apparent early on. 

 

Can I please clarify something - and I promise you I am not the typo police. I am the worst. But did you really mean to type: "Bruce is exceptional at his job /s." I really had a hard time getting past this. I read it several times to see if there was context. I can;t see it so I need to understand if you really believe Bruce is exceptional at his job. I am virtually certain that's not what you believe but it's what is written. 

 

As for Kirk having a team that won 2 divisions - All I can say is the first one was - No Robert, no division. That was an OK team that got on a roll. The same thing exactly happened in 2015 - not to mention those were two very different teams (there are only 18 players that were on both 2012 and 2015 teams - that includes PS.) That team was dead in the water but then Kirk and team got it together and finished really strong. In fairness Kirk was not as critical to the run as Robert was, but that 2015 team was just not very good overall. Do you forget the worst defenses in the league. And saying he was thourougly outclassed in the PO game is hyperbole. He staked the team to an 11 pt lead that should have been 15 if Djax was not showboating. The defense never had an answer for Rogers. Still is was 24 - 18 at the half. 

 

AS for the timing, again I don;t think many regret him being gone for $30/yr. But there is much more to it than that. 

 

Also, can you please elaborate what you have seen in Haskins that you didn't see in Kirk? I am Ok with Haskins developing but so far he is no where near the QB that Kirk is. Can he get there? Possibly. Haskins does have a nice arm - stronger than Kirks. He hits the out routes pretty well. But his long ball is very erratic. His movement in the pocket is OK but I would not say it's better than Kirk. I am really interested in what you see in Haskins you did not see in Kirk. 

 

Last but not least, I totally disagree with what will remove the label by those like you who are just not a fan - and please don;t deny this. I have been here long enough and know most peoples history in terms of the high profile players. And that's OK. You have a right to that opinion.  But more importantly. he could win his next 10 games against teams with winning records and there will still be a lot - well what about ---  filled in with new target. Th only thing that will stop the talk is winning PO games. BTW - He has won some games against teams with a winning record and he has some game winning drives - people just ignore them. He has 10 4th Q comebacks and 13 Game Winning Drives. He had 8 and 12 in Wash, all but 1 of each came 2015, 16 and 17. 

Edited by goskins10
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1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Can I please clarify something - and I promise you I am not the typo police. I am the worst. But did you really mean to type: "Bruce is exceptional at his job /s." I really had a hard time getting past this. I read it several times to see if there was context. I can;t see it so I need to understand if you really believe Bruce is exceptional at his job. I am virtually certain that's what you believe but it's what is written. 


/s = sarcasm 

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28 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:


/s = sarcasm 

 

Fair enough - sorry don't know these symbols. Too old. 🙂  I had a typo - I meant to say "I am virtually certain that's not what you believe but it's what is written." I have corrected it. 

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I was watching and rooting for poor Kirk but it seems his anti-clutch gene kicked in again. It really is remarkable.  That offense was a complete mess, reminded me of the offense we've had here for so many years. No protection, nothing but 4 yard passes and delay of game penalties.  And that pick, oy Kirk WTF?   

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Its a shame that Callahan and Cousins and we would have had a good team, once again Bruce fails to realize who is in the building. How can we expect this crap head to identify talent when he cant even spot it right in front of him.

 

Instead he hires one of the worst coaches the skins have ever had next to Zorn and doesnt realize he stinks for 5.5 years. This guy has bungled so much.

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