No Excuses

The Impeachment Thread

Impeachment  

190 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Donald Trump be impeached for obstruction of justice?



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53 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

In the Nixon hearings, his defying subpoenas was the red line.  They met privately and forced him to resign.  So......who is that changed their standards?

This is why it's crucial for the Senate Dems to push this topic of defying subpoenas. Trump has absolutely done this with the Mueller investigation & the Ukraine investigation.

 

I've seen Kobachur & K.Harris in action asking questions in hearings. I'm way impressed with both. I'm sure there are others that are good as well. I just hope they have a compelling plan to drill whoever ends up testifying. 

 

Edit: If anybody has a link to a non-lawyer explanation of the impeachment process (rules, etc.) please post it somewhere. I want to understand this (lived through Nixon & Clinton without knowing crap).

Edited by EmirOfShmo
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1 hour ago, superozman said:

 

The Obstruction of Congress...I just dont get.  This one, the dems just needed to go to the 3rd branch and say "hey judicial branch, he wont provide this.  Tell him to provide this" and most likely President Trump would have had to.  But they didnt.  They didnt do that, one might think to be able to have this second charge.  This isnt obstruction of justice, it's something unique thought up by those creating the charges.

 

 

Obstruction of Congress isn't that hard to get. Congress is expressly given oversight over the Executive branch in the constitution. If the House is investigating something in the Executive and they request documents or testimony, the Executive is supposed to comply. If the Executive feels the request is unconstitutional they can take it to the courts, but the onus there should be on the Executive to provide the reasons why, not for the House to have to compel them via the courts for every single page of documentation. 

 

The Trump admin literally stated in public from the get-go that they would refuse to comply with any and all House investigations and the subsequent requests for documents and/or testimony. They claim absolute blanket immunity from everything. That's their full bore stated position and it's absolutely nutso. It has zero credible constitutional arguments. It's essentially stating an Imperial Presidency. 

 

Yes, the Dems could go to the courts, but the WH has pulled out all the stops in every other effort there so they can simply run out the clock and keep things jammed up in the courts. If they went to court now even if it were fast tracked at every turn (which is far from a foregone conclusion) it would probably still be a year before it went all the way to the top. The WH and Rs are betting that by that time the public would be weary of the whole thing...plus the election would already be over so it could be moot one way or the other. The Dems basically said they weren't going to play that game here and decided to charge them with obstruction and make that case instead of let the WH and Rs dictate the pace.

Edited by mistertim
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1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

Matt Gaetz accusing Adam Schiff of "theatrics" is more pot calling the kettle black.

I dunno, it feels more like pot calling the porcelain black.

 

54 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

 

It seems like the republican party has taken up trump's warped personality. He is one of the biggest narcissists I've ever seen and one of their major traits is gaslighting, that's all they seem to do these days. It looks like all of the people with integrity are no longer around. 

To be fair, the purge of integrity began before Trump came along.

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1 minute ago, PokerPacker said:

I dunno, it feels more like pot calling the porcelain black.

 

To be fair, the purge of integrity began before Trump came along.

 

I'll never understand how someone could go into a booth and cast a vote for a spineless blowhard like jim jordan. That guy is on the wrong side of everything!

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I’m pretty sure that Schiff and co stated, in their impeachment announcement, that the fact that courts were so glacially slow moving was the reason for obstruction of congress.

 

If they waited for courts, Trump would already be on his second term before they got all the subpoenaed witnesses to testify.

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3 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I’m pretty sure that Schiff and co stated, in their impeachment announcement, that the fact that courts were so glacially slow moving was the reason for obstruction of congress.

 

If they waited for courts, Trump would already be on his second term before they got all the subpoenaed witnesses to testify.

 

And the only thing that Trump WH has shown itself to be exceptionally competent at so far in his entire term is making things move through the courts as slowly as possible. 

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It's interesting that a lot of prosecutors are saying there is plenty enough evidence to charge Trump with a crime, but since Impeachment is a political process, you see all this other stuff being used to distract and cloud up matters. That would pretty much suggest that in a just situation, should the impeachment make it out of the house, the Senate should be convicting due to that being the part of the process that is actually about the crimes themselves and not the politics of the matter, however the Senate trial is potentially where this will be treated with the least amount of process.

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Thank goodness a Democrat is finally calling to task the absolute nonsense that impeachment/removal would "overturn the 2016 election results"   

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1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

 

But that is exactly it.  Trump is making up, completely making up "immunity" when it simply doesn't exist.  Obstructing is obstructing.  Because 6 months from now the obstruction efforts might hypothetically fail, it doesn't mean the process has not been obstructed. If the GOP were being honest about this process they would be demanding the witnesses that can provide 1st hand knowledge they claim they want to hear, to testify.  They aren't however. 

 

Trump makes up a ton of stuff.  🤣.

 

But how do you feel about the precedent it sets?  That if you force congress to go to the 3rd branch before you do something, it's automatically obstruction of congress?  To my knowledge many presidents have done this, but for Trump, it's "Obstruction of Congress"?

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6 minutes ago, superozman said:

 

Trump makes up a ton of stuff.  🤣.

 

But how do you feel about the precedent it sets?  That if you force congress to go to the 3rd branch before you do something, it's automatically obstruction of congress?  To my knowledge many presidents have done this, but for Trump, it's "Obstruction of Congress"?

 

Eh, there is already precedent in this situation. Nixon refused to comply with the subpoenas, the court ruled he had to.  Nixon resigned.   

 

Again, Trump is not arguing that there is a problem with the Democrats subpoena, that it is illegal or invalid.  He is arguing that he can deem anyone he wants magically immune from having to testify and every single court has told him that THERE IS NO SUCH THING.   

 

Just the fact that he is taking these measures to avoid having anyone in his inner circle testify should alarm the GOP as much as it does the Democrats.  During the Nixon hearings it alarmed the Republicans enough to force Nixon to resign.  So once again I will ask the question, What has changed since that precedent?  How can the GOP on one hand say they want more first hand knowledge for more proof, yet sweep under the rug that Trump is blocking the very witnesses that can provide all that information, from testifying.  

Edited by NoCalMike
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3 hours ago, Burgold said:

I mean are people really believing what Devin Nunes or Gaetz or Kennedy  or Lindsey Graham spouts over the summed intelligence reports of every investigative agency?

Yes

 

which is really the core of the problem here. i just spent a few days with someone and have learned a bit about the trump supporters. 
 

they’re brainwashed. They think that anything that refutes their points comes from an untrustworthy source. Everyone is out to get them - trump and his supporters. While we were laughing at trump complaining about a witch hunt, they were being indoctrinated. And they’re full on in now. 
 

they believe the fbi is not to be trusted. The intelligence community. Anything foreign can’t be trusted - media, politicians, even results of things just can’t be trusted. 
 

they’ve been turned against America’s institutions. The things the keep our society together. There is no trust. There is no authority. 
 

that’s why they’re ok with arguing that people are liberals going after trump, even if 2 weeks before they were lauding that persons credentials when they were announced for the task/position. 
 

or that the Ukraine stuff doesn’t matter because the Biden’s need to be investigated

 

or that the gop can literally present no factual evidence, but that the side that only presented factual evidence can’t be trusted. 

the executive privilege nonsense could go to scotus, which is stacked for the R’s, and rule against trump, and they’d find a way to blame scotus for bias and still support and agree with trump 

 

This isn’t a stupidity problem anymore. It’s a cult problem. 
 

logical arguments and evidence are not going to work. 

Edited by tshile
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2 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yes

 

So it took Russia exactly one single election cycle to win the propaganda war.  That is depressing. 

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One of the Democrats should pipe in and say that if they were in this to "overturn the 2016 election" Mike Pence would hardly be their chosen consolation prize to enter the oval office. 

Edited by NoCalMike

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at several points conversation got tense and was about to create a problem. 
 

I had to settle it with “we don’t agree on what facts are anymore so there’s really no where for this to go”

 

I don’t know how you talk to someone that basically declares all authority to be wrong/biased/maliciously lying/etc. 

 

It’s like hanging out with a friend on lsd that keeps arguing with you that you’re the one that doesn’t get it. 

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To add to what @tshilesaid above, my experience with attempting to debate Trump supporters also more or less mirrors my past attempts to debate full-bore conspiracy theorists. Any evidence you present to them that is counter to their narrative is automatically deemed to be from a "suspect" source, regardless of the actual source itself. That source is then automatically made to be part of the conspiracy ("they got to them") and dismissed. It then not only doesn't persuade them that their conspiracy theory is wrong, it actually reinforces it by "showing" them what they already believed...that the conspiracy is so strong it can get to almost anyone so it must be even that much more sinister than before. 

 

Trump supporters basically follow this exact same pattern. I don't think it's a coincidence that Trump has attracted conspiracy nutters from all walks of life and political persuasions. 

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3 minutes ago, tshile said:

at several points conversation got tense and was about to create a problem. 
 

I had to settle it with “we don’t agree on what facts are anymore so there’s really no where for this to go”

 

I don’t know how you talk to someone that basically declares all authority to be wrong/biased/maliciously lying/etc. 

 

It’s like hanging out with a friend on lsd that keeps arguing with you that you’re the one that doesn’t get it. 

 

Yeah that is where things have ended up.  Basically Trump is right-wing media on steroids. "You can only believe me, no one else.  All others critical of me are out to get me"  It is some authoritarian nonsense that 3 years ago I would have laughed off and never expected to get any foot-hold, at least in this short of time.

 

I was so wrong.

 

Trump is basically Dear Leader now.  It's irony that outside of the right-wing bubble we still have some semblance of a free press for people to engage in, and actually read up and study, where the full-bore authoritarian countries do not have that benefit.  Half of America is openly choosing to treat outlets like Fox, Breitbart, OANN (sp?) as their news.  It's sad.

Edited by NoCalMike
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27 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

Yeah the jurors coordinating with the defendant, happens all the time.  America, as we know it, is done and I'm not sure it goes back even if dems win house, senate and presidency. Too much damage is being done, courts are being packed, regulations rolled back.  I have kids 6 and 3 - what the hell kind of country are they going to grow up in.  Very sad times. 

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Holy Moly who is this lady? She is fantastic. 

1 minute ago, Isifhan said:

Yeah the jurors coordinating with the defendant, happens all the time.  America, as we know it, is done and I'm not sure it goes back even if dems win house, senate and presidency. Too much damage is being done, courts are being packed, regulations rolled back.  I have kids 6 and 3 - what the hell kind of country are they going to grow up in.  Very sad times. 

 

The Republicans are reacting to their majorities going away.  Much slower in certain areas than others, but it is coming.  So what they are doing is attempting to stack courts, rig elections, do everything in the power now, so when they can't win elections with votes, it won't matter.

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The frustration I have at this point is I don’t know how to talk to these people

 

My education went through the sciences. My job involves working with systems based on logic. 
 

they are the political equivalent of living in a world where the laws of physics don’t apply. How do you relate to that to be able to have a conversation where there’s an avenue for progress back towards reality?

 

Edited by tshile
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4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The Republicans are reacting to their majorities going away.  Much slower in certain areas than others, but it is coming.  So what they are doing is attempting to stack courts, rig elections, do everything in the power now, so when they can't win elections with votes, it won't matter.

If only 55% of the potential voters vote then you only need a rabid 28% of the country to be on your side.  It skews even more with the electoral college.  

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Whoa, Nadler just threw down the gauntlet.  Said impeachment voting will be tomorrow morning at 10am.   So I suppose a lot of us will be going into the weekend happy or angry, yeah?

 

And here comes the GOP with the "omg, Dictator, Kangaroo Court, Stalin-esque" charges.  Hahahaha....oh shut the eff up clowns, as if you don't 100% know how you are voting anyway.

 

Assuming they mean 10am eastern....I will be  just settling into my desk at work when this begins.

Edited by NoCalMike
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'

 

 

 

 

They should just muzzle the Republicans until it's their turn to talk.

Edited by visionary
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