PokerPacker Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 It's interesting on how the length of the impeachment investigation seems to change based on what suits a particular Republican talking point. Has it been a persecution that's been going on since inauguration, or has it been a rushed couple-month kangaroo-court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, PokerPacker said: It's interesting on how the length of the impeachment investigation seems to change based on what suits a particular Republican talking point. Has it been a persecution that's been going on since inauguration, or has it been a rushed couple-month kangaroo-court? Is it a unconstitutional sham because it's behind closed doors (that Republicans have been invited into, but are boycotting)? Or because they're questioning witnesses on TV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superozman Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, NoCalMike said: So what exactly is there to dispute about the current articles of impeachment? Everything that the Republicans are currently saying. They are saying that the Abuse of Power charge is watered down, and that it's not bribery (bribery isnt listed), and that there are other explanations for why it was brought up (corruption example, etc). You can believe that it was 100% for Trumps re-election purposes, and I personally do not doubt it was thought of by Trump, but the dems Abuse of Power can be disputed. The Obstruction of Congress...I just dont get. This one, the dems just needed to go to the 3rd branch and say "hey judicial branch, he wont provide this. Tell him to provide this" and most likely President Trump would have had to. But they didnt. They didnt do that, one might think to be able to have this second charge. This isnt obstruction of justice, it's something unique thought up by those creating the charges. The Dems should have made sure, that the articles of impeachment were so strong they sould pass a Senate vote. They are not. Which leads me to believe 3 things. They have something up their sleeve for the Senate trial, they are just sick of Trump and have said impeachment 5,000 times and pulled the trigger, or it's a charade as an election tactic for 2020 for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 The S Senate won't vote him out regardless, it takes 2/3 of the Senate. The Republicans are standing with Trump against the Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skintime Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, superozman said: Everything that the Republicans are currently saying. They are saying that the Abuse of Power charge is watered down, and that it's not bribery (bribery isnt listed), and that there are other explanations for why it was brought up (corruption example, etc). You can believe that it was 100% for Trumps re-election purposes, and I personally do not doubt it was thought of by Trump, but the dems Abuse of Power can be disputed. The Obstruction of Congress...I just dont get. This one, the dems just needed to go to the 3rd branch and say "hey judicial branch, he wont provide this. Tell him to provide this" and most likely President Trump would have had to. But they didnt. They didnt do that, one might think to be able to have this second charge. This isnt obstruction of justice, it's something unique thought up by those creating the charges. The Dems should have made sure, that the articles of impeachment were so strong they sould pass a Senate vote. They are not. Which leads me to believe 3 things. They have something up their sleeve for the Senate trial, they are just sick of Trump and have said impeachment 5,000 times and pulled the trigger, or it's a charade as an election tactic for 2020 for them. OMG, Some serious LOL material here. So this rock you have been living under, what was it like? Did the lizard people take you, or gasp, are you one of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, EmirOfShmo said: My thoughts exactly. Will the Democrats use the obstruction during the Mueller investigation to support the same actions during the Ukraine investigation? Sorry for the late response, I left work, had to pick up the kids. On the Mueller-Russia thing. I think a big misconception but the Trump voters and maybe Republicans at large is that it was "Investigating Trump" No. It wasn't. It was an investigation into Russia's meddling, influence, & interference into the election. That is where the foundation of the investigation was started well before Trump himself was a big player in it. The reason Trump ended up being a subject of interest is because individuals attached to his campaign, like Paul Manafort & Michael Flynn, & Roger Stone (and others) were indicted and convicted. Now if you are the FBI and you have those three among others pinned down, where are you naturally going to go next? It would be absolutely absurd to make the assertion that all these people were merely acting on their own with no one in Trump's inner circle, including Trump himself having knowledge of any of this. The only aspect I would maybe concede is that Trump is such a rube, there is a good chance he had no idea what was legal and/or not illegal, (when this all got started) but I assume there might have been some more honest folks around him too that raised concerns but as is the pattern with Trump, he does what he wants and thumbs his nose at the supposed laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, superozman said: Everything that the Republicans are currently saying. They are saying that the Abuse of Power charge is watered down, and that it's not bribery (bribery isnt listed), and that there are other explanations for why it was brought up (corruption example, etc). You can believe that it was 100% for Trumps re-election purposes, and I personally do not doubt it was thought of by Trump, but the dems Abuse of Power can be disputed. The Obstruction of Congress...I just dont get. This one, the dems just needed to go to the 3rd branch and say "hey judicial branch, he wont provide this. Tell him to provide this" and most likely President Trump would have had to. But they didnt. They didnt do that, one might think to be able to have this second charge. This isnt obstruction of justice, it's something unique thought up by those creating the charges. The Dems should have made sure, that the articles of impeachment were so strong they sould pass a Senate vote. They are not. Which leads me to believe 3 things. They have something up their sleeve for the Senate trial, they are just sick of Trump and have said impeachment 5,000 times and pulled the trigger, or it's a charade as an election tactic for 2020 for them. You just made the case for removal. “It was 100 percent for Trumps re-election and Trump thought of it.” nothing else matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, superozman said: The Obstruction of Congress...I just dont get. This one, the dems just needed to go to the 3rd branch and say "hey judicial branch, he wont provide this. Tell him to provide this" and most likely President Trump would have had to. Uh, they've done that. And Trump and one of his personal lawyers simply directs the Department of Justice to go to the next court up the chain and argue another time that he doesn't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, superozman said: The Obstruction of Congress...I just dont get. This one, the dems just needed to go to the 3rd branch and say "hey judicial branch, he wont provide this. Tell him to provide this" and most likely President Trump would have had to. But they didnt. They didnt do that, one might think to be able to have this second charge. This isnt obstruction of justice, it's something unique thought up by those creating the charges. They have gone to the courts. Over and over. Every single court has ruled against Trump so far. Trump is now appealing to the Supreme Court. Problem is the Supreme Court has no obligation to take up the case now, next week, next month, or ever. So basically the game the Republicans are playing is "oh wait this out until........." something that is not coming. When the GOP says "there was no obstruction of congress" there is LITERALLY obstruction of congress going on right now as they speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superozman Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Skintime said: OMG, Some serious LOL material here. So this rock you have been living under, what was it like? Did the lizard people take you, or gasp, are you one of them? I usually dont respond to those who dont actually discuss the topics with me, because as I've said before I appreciate discussion and learning through it. So what is laugh out loud, we can discuss one point if youd like to keep it simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, superozman said: The Dems should have made sure, that the articles of impeachment were so strong they sould pass a Senate vote. They are not. You do realize that your argument consists of "The Dem's case sucks, because the Republicans are unanimously voting to acquit (without even reading them)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Hersh said: You just made the case for removal. “It was 100 percent for Trumps re-election and Trump thought of it.” nothing else matters EX-FN-ACTLY!!! Everything else is background white noise. Everything else is a distraction. That is the entire point of what most of what everyone in this thread is saying. All that matters in the impeachment is whether Trump did it or not. (Spoiler: He did it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, superozman said: The Dems should have made sure, that the articles of impeachment were so strong they sould pass a Senate vote. They are not. Which leads me to believe 3 things. They have something up their sleeve for the Senate trial, they are just sick of Trump and have said impeachment 5,000 times and pulled the trigger, or it's a charade as an election tactic for 2020 for them. 1 hour ago, Larry said: True or false: One week before the RNC convention, (the biggest event of their campaign to date), the top three members of the Trump campaign cleared space on their calendars, so that the three of them could meet with a person who they knew to be a representative of the Russian government, to negotiate receiving campaign assistance from the Russian government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, superozman said: The Dems should have made sure, that the articles of impeachment were so strong they sould pass a Senate vote. They are not. Can you point to any GOP member (currently in office) who has even entertained the idea that Trump might have done something illegal, wrong, or hell even shady? The fact that the GOP are acting like a steel curtain to protect their guy should have zero bearing on doing the right thing or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superozman Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, NoCalMike said: They have gone to the courts. Over and over. Every single court has ruled against Trump so far. Trump is now appealing to the Supreme Court. Problem is the Supreme Court has no obligation to take up the case now, next week, next month, or ever. So basically the game the Republicans are playing is "oh wait this out until........." something that is not coming. When the GOP says "there was no obstruction of congress" there is LITERALLY obstruction of congress going on right now as they speak. On the impeachment inquiry specifically they have not. Nadler even stated he felt they dont need to (to which Rs disagreed), so I am not sure what you are referencing. 8 minutes ago, Hersh said: You just made the case for removal. “It was 100 percent for Trumps re-election and Trump thought of it.” nothing else matters Well maybe I should run for office! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, superozman said: On the impeachment inquiry specifically they have not. Nadler even stated he felt they dont need to (to which Rs disagreed), so I am not sure what you are referencing. Oh really? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/us/politics/mcgahn-testimony-ruling.html Quote WASHINGTON — The former White House counsel Donald F. McGahn II must testify before House impeachment investigators about President Trump’s efforts to obstruct the Mueller inquiry, a judge ruled on Monday, saying that senior presidential aides must comply with congressional subpoenas and calling the administration’s arguments to the contrary “fiction.” 5 second google search dude! (That was November 25th) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skintime Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Larry said: You do realize that your argument consists of "The Dem's case sucks, because the Republicans are unanimously voting to acquit (without even reading them)? OK, I'm sorry for the LOL. You have been very polite and I have not been so I'm sorry for saying you were taken by the lizard people. But I'm am curious, what makes you think with everything that trump has done, withholding all his people from testifying, all the documents, the demands, he would provide this. It has gone to the SC, and he has appealed it. Where is this goodwill you speak of? If he is so innocent why does he not free his people to proclaim his innocence so the world can hear and we can all rejoice in his greatness!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Matt Gaetz accusing Adam Schiff of "theatrics" is more pot calling the kettle black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superozman Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: Can you point to any GOP member (currently in office) who has even entertained the idea that Trump might have done something illegal, wrong, or hell even shady? The fact that the GOP are acting like a steel curtain to protect their guy should have zero bearing on doing the right thing or not. No, but that is politics. Things run along party lines until there is a surefire item, which is my point. Dems dig deeper, get something more solid, boom, Trump is gone. And many of us would say dont let the door hit you in your ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Cedric Richmond is the man democrats need making the case for this impeachment to the people. He cuts through the BS and lays the arguments out plainly. Most republicans seem to not be talking about impeachment at all, they’re just campaigning for Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjunkies Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Destino said: Cedric Richmond is the man democrats need making the case for this impeachment to the people. He cuts through the BS and lays the arguments out plainly. Most republicans seem to not be talking about impeachment at all, they’re just campaigning for Trump. It seems like the republican party has taken up trump's warped personality. He is one of the biggest narcissists I've ever seen and one of their major traits is gaslighting, that's all they seem to do these days. It looks like all of the people with integrity are no longer around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, superozman said: No, but that is politics. Things run along party lines until there is a surefire item, which is my point. Dems dig deeper, get something more solid, boom, Trump is gone. And many of us would say dont let the door hit you in your ass. In the Nixon hearings, his defying subpoenas was the red line. They met privately and forced him to resign. So......who is that changed their standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skintime Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superozman Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: Oh really? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/us/politics/mcgahn-testimony-ruling.html 5 second google search dude! (That was November 25th) I literally shared what Nadler STATED HIMSELF, I don't go to google every ****ing statement. So thanks for the snarky response, but truly thanks for sharing information. This is LITERALLY why i have the conversation. I would have taken Nadler's statement as true. But the funny thing is, this reverts to my original point. If it's actually going through the process, then it's not obstruction. If the court rules these poeple have to testify, then they have to testify and if Trump orders them not to then it's obstruction (Lawyers have stated this). And in the end, if these people have anything to say that truly implicates the president, hello Mike Pence, and next Jan for certain hello (insert Dem here). 7 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: In the Nixon hearings, his defying subpoenas was the red line. They met privately and forced him to resign. So......who is that changed their standards? In the Nixon hearings, the supreme court ordered him to comply (they went to the judicial branch and got a result) prior to voting on the articles of impeachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, superozman said: But the funny thing is, this reverts to my original point. If it's actually going through the process, then it's not obstruction. If the court rules these poeple have to testify, then they have to testify and if Trump orders them not to then it's obstruction (Lawyers have stated this). But that is exactly it. Trump is making up, completely making up "immunity" when it simply doesn't exist. Obstructing is obstructing. Because 6 months from now the obstruction efforts might hypothetically fail, it doesn't mean the process has not been obstructed. If the GOP were being honest about this process they would be demanding the witnesses that can provide 1st hand knowledge they claim they want to hear, to testify. They aren't however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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