spjunkies Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Should've stripped that championship. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: It is an indefinite suspension, not necessarily a lifetime ban. The Commissioner can put you on it and also take you off of it. Jenry Media of the Mets was put on it for repeatedly failing PED tests, but Manfred reinstated him last year. I think George Steinbrenner was put on the list for a few years, I can't remember what it was for though. Probably just being a dick. Steinbrenner: the Dave Winfield and the Howie Spira fiasco. It should be a 30 for 30. Unfortunately for the rest of the MLB, Steinbrenner's suspension worked in the Yankees favor. With Steinbrenner out of the way, Stick Michael got to work and drafted and pretty much laid the groundwork for the late 90s/early 00s Yankees teams that won titles. And then Steinbrenner got to be there to take credit for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 On 1/7/2020 at 3:50 PM, StillUnknown said: Yeah docking draft picks dont mean the same in this sport To a certain degree. The Astros drafted Springer, Correa and Bregman in the first round in the early part of the 2010s. Safe to say, without those 3 they don't win a WS ring. They also drafted McCullers in the first round in 2012. Docking a 3rd round pick isn't the same as docking a 3rd round pick in the NFL. But if you're at the top of the draft in the first round or close to it, you've got a chance to really help your franchise. However since they'd be picking at the bottom of the 1st round this year, I agree with you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Whoa, Luhnow and Hinch just got fired! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjunkies Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Whoa, Luhnow and Hinch just got fired! Dang, didn't expect that 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Good on Mr. Crane. But then this. Clueless Edited January 13, 2020 by CRobi21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmirOfShmo Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Whoa, Luhnow and Hinch just got fired! Good. Surprised no players were suspended. Now lets see what happens in beantown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Hinch will end up with the Cowboys or Raiders. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 The Astros got off easy as did the manager and GM, unless both have been unofficially blackballed by the league. Neither should work in baseball for at least 5 years. Per the draft picks, is there a sports team that wouldn't forfeit those picks for a world championship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Report indicates Alex Cora was the ringleader in 2017, and several 2018 Red Sox players already admitted they did it too. That's TWO consecutive World Series tainted by Cora. I'd expect at least a two year ban for him, if not lifetime. MLB isn't screwing around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Here is the full report if anyone is interested. https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/cglrhmlrwwbkacty27l7.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: To a certain degree. The Astros drafted Springer, Correa and Bregman in the first round in the early part of the 2010s. Safe to say, without those 3 they don't win a WS ring. They also drafted McCullers in the first round in 2012. Docking a 3rd round pick isn't the same as docking a 3rd round pick in the NFL. But if you're at the top of the draft in the first round or close to it, you've got a chance to really help your franchise. However since they'd be picking at the bottom of the 1st round this year, I agree with you. It sets them back comparitively to the rest the league, but the mlb draft is such a crapshoot. Even when players are a success, its usually 2-4 years from when they were drafted. That said, the league seems to be trending on valuing young talent more, giving them a chance to establish themselves earlier than a generation past. Perhaps the loss will be more significant now than 10 years ago. I still feel like the only reason they keep their title is because its less of a headache for MLB, which isnt a good enough reason not to strip them. Mlb needs to send the nats their draft picks for beating them in game 7. This looks a hell of alot worse if they are coming off 2 titles in 3 years Edited January 13, 2020 by StillUnknown 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 26 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: It sets them back comparitively to the rest the league, but the mlb draft is such a crapshoot. Even when players are a success, its usually 2-4 years from when they were drafted. That said, the league seems to be trending on valuing young talent more, giving them a chance to establish themselves earlier than a generation past. Perhaps the loss will be more significant now than 10 years ago. I still feel like the only reason they keep their title is because its less of a headache for MLB, which isnt a good enough reason not to strip them. Mlb needs to send the nats their draft picks for beating them in game 7. This looks a hell of alot worse if they are coming off 2 titles in 3 years Yeah, it's a bigger crapshoot for sure. I think if you're picking in the top 3, you've got a decent chance to land someone...certainly not as good as the NFL or NBA...but if you're picking #15 in the first round of the MLB draft, forget it. NFL, NBA, #15 in the first, you've still got a decent (not great) chance to land someone that can make a difference for you. I agree that MLB is valuing younger talent more in recent years, it has been refreshing to see. And I think you're right, MLB doesn't want a bigger headache than they already have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 you either take the title or hand out lifetime bans everything else feels like a half-measure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 "The Astros’ methods in 2017 and 2018 to decode and communicate to the batter an opposing Club’s signs were not an initiative that was planned or directed by the Club’s top baseball operations officials. Rather, the 2017 scheme in which players banged on a trash can was, with the exception of Cora, player-driven and player-executed." So why aren't players being fined and suspended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said: To a certain degree. The Astros drafted Springer, Correa and Bregman in the first round in the early part of the 2010s. Safe to say, without those 3 they don't win a WS ring. They also drafted McCullers in the first round in 2012. Docking a 3rd round pick isn't the same as docking a 3rd round pick in the NFL. But if you're at the top of the draft in the first round or close to it, you've got a chance to really help your franchise. However since they'd be picking at the bottom of the 1st round this year, I agree with you. First round picks at the top of the draft though, vs bottom of the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, TheDoyler23 said: "The Astros’ methods in 2017 and 2018 to decode and communicate to the batter an opposing Club’s signs were not an initiative that was planned or directed by the Club’s top baseball operations officials. Rather, the 2017 scheme in which players banged on a trash can was, with the exception of Cora, player-driven and player-executed." So why aren't players being fined and suspended? It opens a can of worms with MLBPA. If they hammer the GM and the manager, any team's FO and coaches in the future can kibosh it if players try something similar again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, justice98 said: First round picks at the top of the draft though, vs bottom of the first round. Exactly, which is why losing these draft picks isn't too big of a deal, IMO. Does that mean they're losing the ability to spend that money, too? Cause they can always go over slot to sign guys that have fallen to the 3rd and 4th rounds that other clubs would think they have to go over slot to sign in the first or second round. 5 million fine is a drop in the bucket to these guys, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just throwing out a point of reference for punishments. At UNC, over the course of 18 years, at least 3,100 students took "nonexistent" classes, the official investigation for which stated: "These counselors saw the paper classes and the artificially high grades they yielded as key to helping some student-athletes remain eligible [to participate in UNC athletics]." The NCAA's punishment: Nothing. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/sports/unc-north-carolina-ncaa.html Quote The N.C.A.A. did not dispute that the University of North Carolina was guilty of running one of the worst academic fraud schemes in college sports history, involving fake classes that enabled dozens of athletes to gain and maintain their eligibility. But there will be no penalties, the organization said, because no rules were broken. I'm not saying the Astro's are getting railroaded, I'm saying they are getting punished more than what usually happens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, bearrock said: It opens a can of worms with MLBPA. If they hammer the GM and the manager, any team's FO and coaches in the future can kibosh it if players try something similar again. Yes. And Manfred should be willing to fight that. Integrity of the sport should be important to him. He’s now presided over possibly multiple World Series’ that have been compromised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, TheDoyler23 said: "The Astros’ methods in 2017 and 2018 to decode and communicate to the batter an opposing Club’s signs were not an initiative that was planned or directed by the Club’s top baseball operations officials. Rather, the 2017 scheme in which players banged on a trash can was, with the exception of Cora, player-driven and player-executed." So why aren't players being fined and suspended? Per the report: Quote I will not assess discipline against individual Astros players. I made the decision in September 2017 that I would hold a Club’s General Manager and Field Manager accountable for misconduct of this kind, and I will not depart from that decision. Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical. It is difficult because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability. It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs. But more importantly, the Club’s General Manager and Field Manager are responsible for ensuring that the players both understand the rules and adhere to them. Our office issues a substantial number of detailed rules and procedures to Clubs – many of which, including the sign stealing rules, are not sent directly to players. It is the obligation of the Club, and, in this case, the General Manager and Field Manager, to educate and instruct their players on the rules governing play on the field. Here, because the Club’s Bench Coach was an active participant in the scheme, and the Club’s Manager was aware of the scheme and did nothing to stop it, I recognize that some players may have understood that their conduct was not only condoned by the Club, but encouraged by it. This was misconduct committed by the team, and with the exception of the individuals whom I will hold personally accountable, my disciplinary action will be directed at the team. I think this is a decent enough rationale (certainly a lot of the players involved are with other clubs, and it's tough to pick and choose which players to punish), but also probably motivated by MLB's bottom line (don't want to tarnish Bregman, he's super marketable, etc). Edited January 13, 2020 by PleaseBlitz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, TheDoyler23 said: Yes. And Manfred should be willing to fight that. Integrity of the sport should be important to him. He’s now presided over possibly multiple World Series’ that have been compromised. You're probably right on principle. But it is a hugely messy situation to go down that route. Given the free agency implications, you might need to give new teams right to void contracts at some point. It's an incredibly difficult needle to thread, is all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I couldn’t disagree more. “Too many of them cheated to discipline them” is garbage rationale. 17 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: Just throwing out a point of reference for punishments. At UNC, over the course of 18 years, at least 3,100 students took "nonexistent" classes, the official investigation for which stated: "These counselors saw the paper classes and the artificially high grades they yielded as key to helping some student-athletes remain eligible [to participate in UNC athletics]." The NCAA's punishment: Nothing. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/sports/unc-north-carolina-ncaa.html I'm not saying the Astro's are getting railroaded, I'm saying they are getting punished more than what usually happens. The NCAA totally dropping the ball and failing to hold people accountable has nothing to do with MLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hersh said: I couldn’t disagree more. “Too many of them cheated to discipline them” is garbage rationale. I agree, what you wrote is garbage rationale, but that's not the rationale in the report, if you read it. Quote The NCAA totally dropping the ball and failing to hold people accountable has nothing to do with MLB. It's a point of reference for how these things usually go. Edited January 13, 2020 by PleaseBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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