Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Does it really matter if Allen and co are the ones evaluating and making the pick? Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Burgold said: In fairness, Philly's roster was considered one of the worst in the league the year Chip Kelly was fired. Two years later that team won a Superbowl with a back up QB that was almost run out of the league for ineffectiveness. Ya, because of being hyper aggressive in getting a young franchise QB and in free agency, along with a completely rebuilt front office. If we don't do any of the three, I don't expect the same or so.ilar results. https://www.mcall.com/sports/football/eagles/mc-spt-super-bowl-eagles-rebuild-20180203-story.html I mean, in all fairness, that team was 11-2 when Foles made his first start because of Wentz, not Foles, that's who got him home field advantage in the playoffs to be a le to go on that run in the first place. He obviously fits that offense, but it tool a loooooong time for him to fit a where like he does right now. Eagles have 18 guys on IR including a QB that was on an MVP tear last year and are in the second round of the playoffs. That's his much better their organization is then ours right now, so no, I'm not shocked they are still successful with their backup QB. Does that make Foles elite? No, that makes the organization elite, something we aren't, so bringing up Foles like he would be successful here doesn't make sense to me. Fun fact: Foles has never started 16 games in a season in his entire career. They are absolutely maximixing the hell out of him, so we should get back to making up for what we haven't shown we can do instead of giving examples of teams that can. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SprintBomb Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SprintBomb Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/history-says-trading-up-for-a-first-round-quarterback-is-generally-a-terrible-idea/ https://www.businessinsider.com/trade-up-for-qb-nfl-draft-2018-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Ya, because of being hyper aggressive in getting a young franchise QB and in free agency, along with a completely rebuilt front office. If we don't do any of the three, I don't expect the same or so.ilar results. https://www.mcall.com/sports/football/eagles/mc-spt-super-bowl-eagles-rebuild-20180203-story.html I mean, in all fairness, that team was 11-2 when Foles made his first start because of Wentz, not Foles, that's who got him home field advantage in the playoffs to be a le to go on that run in the first place. He obviously fits that offense, but it tool a loooooong time for him to fit a where like he does right now. Eagles have 18 guys on IR including a QB that was on an MVP tear last year and are in the second round of the playoffs. That's his much better their organization is then ours right now, so no, I'm not shocked they are still successful with their backup QB. Does that make Foles elite? No, that makes the organization elite, something we aren't, so bringing up Foles like he would be successful here doesn't make sense to me. Fun fact: Foles has never started 16 games in a season in his entire career. They are absolutely maximixing the hell out of him, so we should get back to making up for what we haven't shown we can do instead of giving examples of teams that can. Please. Same story though with the Rams. The Rams were considered a perennial joke. A Browns level team. McVay comes over and people start talking about how many amazing players they have. Goff was on his way to being a total bust and everyone said that McVay was just waiting a year and hoping he could steal Cousins. Utilizing a roster correctly is part of making a team look talented. Here's an example, if Peterson was used correctly, taking runs as he prefers, do you think he wouldn't have gotten 2-400 more yards? And again, the Chip Kelly teams were considered totally devoid of talent. Two years later they are Superbowl winners. That's not an 11-2 team winning with a back up. That's taking a 4-12 team and using the same players (mainly) and getting to the Super Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profusion Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, Burgold said: And again, the Chip Kelly teams were considered totally devoid of talent. Two years later they are Superbowl winners. That's not an 11-2 team winning with a back up. That's taking a 4-12 team and using the same players (mainly) and getting to the Super Bowl. I don't recall anyone saying that. Kelly made some odd moves in transitioning away from Andy Reid's personnel, but I recall people mostly joking about him trying run the "blur" offense in the NFL and how he was misusing talent. Does anyone really think that Sean McVay could have reached the SB with the 2018 Redskins roster? Coaching is a big part, but not more so than roster construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, profusion said: Does anyone really think that Sean McVay could have reached the SB with the 2018 Redskins roster? Coaching is a big part, but not more so than roster construction. I don't think I see the Super Bowl, but I do see a more successful year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 @Burgold I really want to get your point, but I don't, can you please try to rephrase it so I'm on same page with you? We don't have McVay or Pederson, we dont have the high quailty have the high quality, aggressive front office, we have Jay and Bruce for foreseeable future. So what do you do knowing that? Keep insisting on what we should be doing knowing we won't do it? Just now, Burgold said: I don't think I see the Super Bowl, but I do see a more successful year. This is completely hypothetical considering we went through 4 QBs this year, this quickly deviating from the point of the thread. It woulda been a slightly better team with ridiculous amount of injuries and no future, hardly an upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 @Renegade7, What I perceived your argument to be was that it takes three components to be successful: a good front office, coaching staff, or roster. Then you said, the Redskins aren't comparable to the Eagles in any of 'em. What I'm trying to argue is that we might have similar talent on the roster, but that the coaching is holding our team back. By way of exploring this, I looked at the Rams before McVay and the Eagles before Pederson. Both the Eagles and Rams were bottom feeders and many said that the Chip Kelly had got rid of all his best talent and left the roster a disaster. In steps Pederson and almost immediately the Eagles have a good roster. Same thing with the Rams. I agree with you that there are three legs, but what I'm saying is that the coaching leg may be holding back the roster. It may be making the talent substantially worse than it actually is. By almost every "experts' reckoning we have had two very good drafts in a row. Playing a pure vanilla, unimaginative defensive scheme we had a top five defense the first half of the year. That ranking, I believe, was based solely on talent. Likewise, Smith, Crowder, Thompson, Reed, and Peterson is actually a pretty talented group. Now, injuries have to be taken into account, and that's where the FO leg has let us down, but I think that we are further along in talent than we think. We're just always losing on the chess board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profusion Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Burgold said: I don't think I see the Super Bowl, but I do see a more successful year. We can't know what McVay would be able to accomplish with Alex Smith, Adrian Peterson and a bunch of spare parts. He lucked into (or was wise enough to get into) an enormously talented team that was held back by a coach trying to run a 1970s offense. Everybody knew how much talent the Rams had. The question for years was how Jeff Fisher could get so little out of so much - both in St. Louis and Tennessee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakedtater1 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 How was mcvays attitude when here..did he respect the organization, appreciate being here?.. what I don't think people understand here is if he would have been named the head coach it wouldn't have done a ****tin bit of difference..we still wouldn't be good..we can keep trading up for every bright and shiny new quarterback coming out until the cows come home and it wouldn't make a difference neither had McVay been named the coach... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, profusion said: We can't know what McVay would be able to accomplish with Alex Smith, Adrian Peterson and a bunch of spare parts. No, we can't, but we can look at the success of the Redskins offense before McVay, during McVay, and after McVay and say... the McVay years were our best years. On top of it, we can say that the discipline of the Rams (the sloppy penalties, time mismanagement, etc.) is far superior than the Redskins' discipline. So, I can't know that a McVay run Redskins team would be more successful, but I think it's very likely. I also think that McVay would not have hired Haslett or Barry and probably no Manusky to be his DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 42 minutes ago, SprintBomb said: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/history-says-trading-up-for-a-first-round-quarterback-is-generally-a-terrible-idea/ My original list I gave you had more examples both failures and successes. This is just failures, your just trying to scare people out of this like it never works and that's not true. 42 minutes ago, SprintBomb said: https://www.businessinsider.com/trade-up-for-qb-nfl-draft-2018-3 Based on that list, that's looks like a 5-3 success rate, because I dont consider Vick a bust, 4-4 otherwise, which is basically a coin flip. That's really weak to throw Josh Freeman in there as a failure of moving up on same list with Griffin when the Bucs only moved up two spots. And Flacco won super bowl MVP, so I ultra dont get what point you making here other then throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profusion Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, Burgold said: So, I can't know that a McVay run Redskins team would be more successful, but I think it's very likely. I also think that McVay would not have hired Haslett or Barry and probably no Manusky to be his DC. You're assuming that Jay had any choice in all of that. I'm not defending Jay here. He's Norv 2.0. But a lot of coaches have been called brilliant because they were able to get out of the way of a talented roster and not screw things up. Give it a few seasons and more roster turnover before we annoint McVay as Belichick 2.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SprintBomb Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Renegade7 said: My original list I gave you had more examples both failures and successes. This is just failures, your just trying to scare people out of this like it never works and that's not true. Based on that list, that's looks like a 5-3 success rate, because I dont consider Vick a bust, 4-4 otherwise, which is basically a coin flip. That's really weak to throw Josh Freeman in there as a failure of moving up on same list with Griffin when the Bucs only moved up two spots. And Flacco won super bowl MVP, so I ultra dont get what point you making here other then throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. So you were upset with me for not providing stats and "talking to you like your 5". I provide 2 links after googling "nfl trading up first round" and your upset with that as well. Both links show real situations, some good some bad. The first one also includes an interesting quote from Pete Carol regarding the failure rate of underclassmen QBs. Also regarding Flacco remember the they had the 8th pick and traded down to 26 then traded from 26 to 18. I'm not trying to "throw stuff at a wall to see what sticks". I'm also not posting those 2 links to make some point. I'm posting them as info for anyone who may be interested considering its related to the thread. You seem extremely defensive on the topic. Chill out and enjoy your Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 @Burgold I feel you, man, yea,with better coaching it might of been better. There's nothing to expect from this team having 20+ players on IR and going through 4 QBs. It's like putting sprinkles on a **** sundae, you aren't winning a championship with that formula. It's like groundhog day with way Bruce has constructed a roster almost maliciously designed to self-implode from injury every year so he can keep using that excuse to keep his job. The only way I know to even stay competitive in an ass-backwards plan like that is with an elite QB. We're making a mistake thinking we will ever do it the right way or that even have enough time to u til critical mass is hit with this fan base. We roll out there with JJ starting week 1 and there may be no coming back from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, profusion said: You're assuming that Jay had any choice in all of that. I'm not defending Jay here. He's Norv 2.0. But a lot of coaches have been called brilliant because they were able to get out of the way of a talented roster and not screw things up. Give it a few seasons and more roster turnover before we annoint McVay as Belichick 2.0. Not really because in my current ideal Redskins world there is no Jay and there is no Bruce. I view the problem as one of "and" I think the only thing we've been doing kind of okay in recent years is drafting. I don't know that we've been killing the draft, but we're doing pretty well. If we had no Jay and no Bruce with McVay in charge I suspect we'd have a superior team even with the same roster... even with the same injuries (although I contend some of those injuries wouldn't have happened because McVay's training camp, practices, etc. would lead to practices that would reduce injuries). The fact that we continually lead the league in injuries and guys lost for the season also speaks to both Jay and Bruce. Mind you, I'm being led astray. This thread should be about Haskins and the value of trading up. On that account, I'm against it. I think next year is the year to get the QB. This year is the one to play out the lame HC and lame FO, tank our way down to 4-12 which ought to be possible if our starting QB is Colt backed up by Josh, and then get one of the super blue chippers coming out next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 20 minutes ago, SprintBomb said: So you were upset with me for not providing stats and "talking to you like your 5". I provide 2 links after googling "nfl trading up first round" and your upset with that as well. Both links show real situations, some good some bad. The first one also includes an interesting quote from Pete Carol regarding the failure rate of underclassmen QBs. Also regarding Flacco remember the they had the 8th pick and traded down to 26 then traded from 26 to 18. I'm not trying to "throw stuff at a wall to see what sticks". I'm also not posting those 2 links to make some point. I'm posting them as info for anyone who may be interested considering its related to the thread. You seem extremely defensive on the topic. Chill out and enjoy your Sunday. I'm good, I'm not upset. Im also not one for subtle or direct insults, I have an overall threshold for that. I already posted a link for you with a list of all those guys and more, ones that worked and ones that didnt. We both know sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, its not that serious, we both want same thing just different way of getting it. We can pick up on this later, going to enjoy my Sunday : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Wonsley Posse Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Doesn’t matter what they do if BA and Gruden are still here they will always be 7-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: I honestly didnt know he was black. I've just read about him here and don't watch college. Between his name and baseball, I assumed he was a white guy. You’re thinking of Murray, the undersized qb with baseball on the horizon. Haskins is quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdaddy Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 9 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Ya, because of being hyper aggressive in getting a young franchise QB and in free agency, along with a completely rebuilt front office. If we don't do any of the three, I don't expect the same or so.ilar results. https://www.mcall.com/sports/football/eagles/mc-spt-super-bowl-eagles-rebuild-20180203-story.html I mean, in all fairness, that team was 11-2 when Foles made his first start because of Wentz, not Foles, that's who got him home field advantage in the playoffs to be a le to go on that run in the first place. He obviously fits that offense, but it tool a loooooong time for him to fit a where like he does right now. Eagles have 18 guys on IR including a QB that was on an MVP tear last year and are in the second round of the playoffs. That's his much better their organization is then ours right now, so no, I'm not shocked they are still successful with their backup QB. Does that make Foles elite? No, that makes the organization elite, something we aren't, so bringing up Foles like he would be successful here doesn't make sense to me. Fun fact: Foles has never started 16 games in a season in his entire career. They are absolutely maximixing the hell out of him, so we should get back to making up for what we haven't shown we can do instead of giving examples of teams that can. Please. And let's not forget that Philly traded away their two most electric players, Shady McCoy and Desean Jackson....Their rise to NFL elite has been almost totally about front office and coaching personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedBNG Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 I love these personal favorite one player call outs before the draft that have us giving up a pick or 2 along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Hammer Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 I'd say lets just genuinely suck next year, despite Wash's best efforts not to, and land in place to draft Justin Herbert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clskinsfan Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 NOOOOO! Take your guy at 15 if you have too. But dont give up the farm again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommDownMan Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 9% yes, so we probably all know what our FO will do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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