Election 2019 - D's take VA. Bevin takes L.

[Fresh8686]

12 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

Exactly this. Dems can tie their hands behind their back and light themselves on fire protesting partisan gerrymandering, but GOP is going to point and laugh and win elections while they do it. 

 

Or Dems can be as aggressive as they can to beat the GOP at their own game, and who knows maybe turn the elimination of partisan gerrymandering into a bipartisan position. 

 

Yea and in between those is a goldilocks zone, that allows you to still be effective while maintaining some semblance of integrity.

 

We need to thread that needle.

[PleaseBlitz]

I think it would be PERFECTLY appropriate for Dems in any legislative body to say "we have this bill that would mandate fair redistricting procedures forever, and we're happy to pass it at any time because we fundamentally favor fair elections.  Until such time, so long as we are in power, we will 100% push for every advantage in the process up to and included drawing the most gerrymandered districts that can pass legal muster."

[NoCalMike]

1 minute ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I think it would be PERFECTLY appropriate for Dems in any legislative body to say "we have this bill that would mandate fair redistricting procedures forever, and we're happy to pass it at any time because we fundamentally favor fair elections.  Until such time, so long as we are in power, we will 100% push for every advantage in the process up to and included drawing the most gerrymandered districts that can pass legal muster."

 

On that point, I think what would be nice is for the Dems to, instead of unilaterally re-drawing district maps, pass some sort of legislation that requires any/all future drawing of district maps to be done in a bi-partisan way regardless of which party is in power in the state.

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, NoCalMike said:

 

On that point, I think what would be nice is for the Dems to, instead of unilaterally re-drawing district maps, pass some sort of legislation that requires any/all future drawing of district maps to be done in a bi-partisan way regardless of which party is in power in the state.

 

 

 

Right, but I think they should use the threat of drawing partisan maps as a cudgel to get that done.  

 

I also think that Virginia shouldn't do that unless some red states agree to do the same in the context of drawing US House maps. 

[Renegade7]

Trying to do anything to resolve this issue will get spun as a partisan attack by fox and the GOP until they get back in power and get back to gerrymandering themselves. 

 

If Virginia can create a model for fixing this based some kind of algorithm centered on population, not race or party, like with folks from Virginia Tech or MIT, do it and put in place so no one can get rid of it.  Use AI to create something that makes sense and try to take the human element out of it as much as possible, no human is perfectly unbiased.

 

The best case scenario is something neither side loves or probably even likes, that's when you know you got something fair.  The more pissed both sides are at it, the better.

[tshile]

The algorithms produce maps people don’t like. 
 

the problem is everyone wants it “fair” but there’s no definition for that. Someone is always unhappy about how some group of people are “unfairly” represented. 

[PleaseBlitz]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Trying to do anything to resolve this issue will get spun as a partisan attack by fox and the GOP until they get back in power and get back to gerrymandering themselves.

 

Of course it will be.  And because doing ANYTHING will be attacked as partisan, you might as well do whatever you want.  And if you do it right, they'll never get back into power regardless. 

[Springfield]

Fox News will accuse VA dems of gerrymandering regardless of how they draw the maps.  So **** it all

and draw the maps so that they’ll never lose control of the legislature.

 

Dont squander this opportunity by being giant cucks.

[Cooked Crack]

 

Some sore ass losers

[Larry]

18 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Trying to do anything to resolve this issue will get spun as a partisan attack by fox and the GOP until they get back in power and get back to gerrymandering themselves. 

 

No doubt.  

 

If voters are individually assigned to districts via a random  number generator, the headlines on right wing media will be "The Dem legislature is drawing districts which will cost the GOP 11 seats!".  

 

So I'm not sure that I care about something that I know they're going to lie about, anyway.  

 

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

No doubt.  

 

If voters are individually assigned to districts via a random  number generator, the headlines on right wing media will be "The Dem legislature is drawing districts which will cost the GOP 11 seats!".  

 

So I'm not sure that I care about something that I know they're going to lie about, anyway.  

 

 

Why I think we can push for something that's fair now before we risk them being in power again.  I liken this to preexisting conditions protecting the ACA from getting replaced, regardless of the relentless attacks, the general public wont 100% agree with the propaganda all the time.  We will definitely lose the court of public playing the same bs game as them.

[LadySkinsFan]

Reading lots posts on FB of voter suppression at the polls directly with people of color being told that they aren't on the list despite their registration showing up on online voter registration lists, or just denied because they don't have a picture ID when none is required, and so on. 

 

I am very angry about this not letting people vote or having them submit a provisional ballot. This is happening everywhere, even in NJ. Thank goodness some good citizens are standing up to this outright suppression of citizens' right to vote. 

[@DCGoldPants]

At this point you can do anything and the same folks are going to complain. 

Question is, do you do something that is "fair" or something that favors you?

 

No doubt there are debates internally for Dems in a lot of states on how best to address this. Some might suggest to just go with what favors you and blow off the complaints as "Why should we believe them when they keep getting caught lying?".

 

Personally, I would lean towards more "fair" but also create laws under the election fraud concept that makes the penalties for things like the phony ballots in Ohio (or what recently happened in NC) with a minimum of prison time and HUGE fines to the individuals and if they work for a state party, them too.

 

****, right now VA should have a law about releasing taxes to appear on a ballot for national office.  Get in on that action.

[LadySkinsFan]

Also, if one is committed of voter fraud or suppression they lose their right to vote. How dare they prevent others who have the right to vote!

[Renegade7]

46 minutes ago, tshile said:

The algorithms produce maps people don’t like. 
 

the problem is everyone wants it “fair” but there’s no definition for that. Someone is always unhappy about how some group of people are “unfairly” represented. 

 

In all honesty, I dont even know if fair should be the goal, jus what makes the most amount of sense based on population. We should use as much of this on math as we can. So much of our representative democracy is centered on that first, that's why the census is so important, why we did 3/5ths of a person back in the day (as messed up as that was).  I dont know if we have mininum population requirements anymore to be a state, but we used to.

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm involved in an anti-gerrymandering group in Texas. Everywhere in the country, if you draw the maps fairly, it benefits Democrats (with the possible exception of California). So, there is no need to gerrymander in Virginia. Draw the maps fairly, and the Democratic majority should increase.

 

I also look at the big picture. Gerrymandering is killing Democrats in Texas, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina. And it's probably costing us at least one seat in Alabama. So, any benefit that would come out of rigging the map in Virginia doesn't pay off elsewhere.

 

Assuming the blue takeover of Virginia is complete, it's really time to put resources in North Carolina, Georgia, and - yes - Texas.

[No Excuses]

1 hour ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

Some sore ass losers

Kind of amazing how openly anti-democracy the GOP is. If you look at their behavior in NC and GA, you can see field tests for what is almost certainly going to be their federal strategy if they aren’t properly checked by voters. 

[No Excuses]

1. It’s the women.

 

2. Shocker of the year that women won’t support a party that backs a man who brags about committing sexual assault and raped women,  a party who supported a pedophile and a rapist and is now openly pro rape babies. 
 

 

 

[MartinC]

18 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

1. It’s the women.

 

2. Shocker of the year that women won’t support a party that backs a man who brags about committing sexual assault and raped women,  a party who supported a pedophile and a rapist and is now openly pro rape babies. 

 

It does make me somewhat ashamed to be an ageing white male. We are dragging our heels here.

[No Excuses]

17 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

It does make me somewhat ashamed to be an ageing white male. We are dragging our heels here.

Can’t hold yourself accountable for actions of others. White identity politics is a phenomena stronger than any one person.

[PleaseBlitz]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I'm involved in an anti-gerrymandering group in Texas. Everywhere in the country, if you draw the maps fairly, it benefits Democrats (with the possible exception of California). So, there is no need to gerrymander in Virginia. Draw the maps fairly, and the Democratic majority should increase.

 

I also look at the big picture. Gerrymandering is killing Democrats in Texas, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina. And it's probably costing us at least one seat in Alabama. So, any benefit that would come out of rigging the map in Virginia doesn't pay off elsewhere.

 

 

This literally makes no sense.

 

Sure, draw the VA map fairly and the Dem majority should increase.  Draw it unfairly in favor of Dems, and the Dem majority will increase more.

 

Yes, gerrymandering is unfairly skewed against Dems in TX, PA and NC.  True.  So rigging the map in VA would offset the unfairly drawn maps in those other states.

 

I know this is Machiavellian, but if Republicans are going to brazenly gain an unfair advantage in the states in which they hold power, then Dems have to counterbalance that in the states in which they hold power, or else we will be in perpetual minority rule in the House.  We are already stuck in that in the Senate.

[LadySkinsFan]

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

This literally makes no sense.

 

Sure, draw the VA map fairly and the Dem majority should increase.  Draw it unfairly in favor of Dems, and the Dem majority will increase more.

 

Yes, gerrymandering is unfairly skewed against Dems in TX, PA and NC.  True.  So rigging the map in VA would offset the unfairly drawn maps in those other states.

 

I know this is Machiavellian, but if Republicans are going to brazenly gain an unfair advantage in the states in which they hold power, then Dems have to counterbalance that in the states in which they hold power, or else we will be in perpetual minority rule in the House.  We are already stuck in that in the Senate.

 

I'm saying you need to build a legal and political argument against gerrymandering. Being short-sighted undercuts a longer-term plan here.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

This literally makes no sense.

 

Sure, draw the VA map fairly and the Dem majority should increase.  Draw it unfairly in favor of Dems, and the Dem majority will increase more.

 

Yes, gerrymandering is unfairly skewed against Dems in TX, PA and NC.  True.  So rigging the map in VA would offset the unfairly drawn maps in those other states.

 

I know this is Machiavellian, but if Republicans are going to brazenly gain an unfair advantage in the states in which they hold power, then Dems have to counterbalance that in the states in which they hold power, or else we will be in perpetual minority rule in the House.  We are already stuck in that in the Senate.

 

I'm confused, arent Dems in control of House right now, and partly due to the GOP losses in the suburbs? 

 

I'm convinced we're going to start seeing ruby red states get dem senators because of this in our lifetime, rural areas are dominated by the only racial group in the US that's declining in population in an era where more people in cities then rural for first time in human history.  The target model for the modern GOP is completely unsubstainable, this isnt jus corruption, its desperation.

 

I believe theres some truth the game being so rigged in GOP favor that any attempts to resolve it will favor Democrats in some case.  I'd say "is what it is" on that one, have to start somewhere, they brought it in themselves. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm confused, arent Dems in control of House right now, and partly due to the GOP losses in the suburbs? 

 

I'm convinced we're going to start seeing ruby red states get dem senators because of this in our lifetime, rural areas are dominated by the only racial group in the US that's declining in population in an era where more people in cities then rural for first time in human history.  The target model for the modern GOP is completely unsubstainable, this isnt jus corruption, its desperation.

 

I believe theres some truth the game being so rigged in GOP favor that any attempts to resolve it will favor Democrats in some case.  I'd say "is what it is" on that one, have to start somewhere, they brought it in themselves. 

 

The Senate and the Electoral College are both anti-urban concepts that will hurt the Dems for the foreseeable future. But that's an issue that has to be addressed on a Constitutional level and is - thus - almost impossible to resolve in the near term.

 

The House will work itself out if you just draw the maps fairly across the country - which can be done via normal legal/political mechanisms.