Miami Herald: I’m done trying to understand Trump supporters. Why don’t they try to understand me?

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, Bang said:

I'm not sure why not. It got to Iowa pretty fast. And it turned our country and every other western country on it's head.
we are totally vulnerable, especially during the Trump admin,, we can't come together on any issue at all. Think they don't know that?
We're practically destabilized as it is.. to keep prying at the weakness is what an enemy does.
Perhaps the release wasn't expected where it happened, but to think they could not have engineered it .. I don't know how it's so hard to believe.

 

~Bang

 

 

Just as easy to believe <insert country here> released it in China to make them look bad.  Maybe even more so...

[Bang]

12 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Just as easy to believe <insert country here> released it in China to make them look bad.  Maybe even more so...

 

I guess. A country could have smuggled in a souped up version the last SARS disease that came from Wuhan, taken it to Wuhan and released it to make a nation that is aggressively pushing for world domination look like an aggressive nation.

But that seems very far-fetched. We forget that when it got out, the first scientist who raised alarms was promptly thrown in jail where he died of it. They tried like hell to shut it up. They introduced the "bat soup" theory. Keeps everyone off balance, slows reactions, slows responses, and again, do not discount how easy the Trump admin's idiocy helped make it worse. And that was easy to predict. Destabilization, infighting .. we are a mess.
To me the obvious is the most obvious answer. This is something they would do, it is very similar to the last version that got out. It can't just be dismissed because it doesn't match our morality. They don't match our morality and never have. The possibility is strong.
And it caused more than economic strife.. it caused violence in this country, people storming state houses, we had an actual insurrection that is still rippling and still a real threat to happen again.  We are weaker as a result, divides are deeper, trust in those who can help us is non-existent on one side of it, and they are moving ahead very quickly in terms of bulking up their military.

 

If they did not do it, it is pretty coincidental that it all worked so well in their favor.

 

~Bang

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Bang

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 minutes ago, Bang said:

 

I guess. A country could have smuggled in a souped up version the last SARS disease that came from Wuhan, taken it to Wuhan and released it to make a nation that is aggressively pushing for world domination look like an aggressive nation.

But that seems very far-fetched. We forget that when it got out, the first scientist who raised alarms was promptly thrown in jail where he died of it. They tried like hell to shut it up. They introduced the "bat soup" theory. 
To me the obvious is the most obvious answer. This is something they would do, it is very similar to the last version that got out. It can't just be dismissed because it doesn't match our morality. They don't match our morality and never have. The possibility is strong.
And it caused more than economic strife.. it caused violence in this country, people storming state houses, we had an actual insurrection that is still rippling and still a real threat to happen again.  We are weaker as a result, divides are deeper, trust in those who can help us is non-existent on one side of it, and they are moving ahead very quickly in terms of bulking up their military.

 

If they did not do it, it is pretty coincidental that it all worked so well in their favor.

 

~Bang

 

 

The US reaffirming our global leadership in vaccine/medical technology and leading the world into the post-pandemic by distributing it to our allies worked out well for China?

[Larry]

6 minutes ago, Bang said:

But that seems very far-fetched. We forget that when it got out, the first scientist who raised alarms was promptly thrown in jail where he died of it. They tried like hell to shut it up.

 

Yeah.  I mean, politicians wouldn't try like hell to downplay the outbreak of a contagious disease, unless they themselves had intentionally created it.  

 

 

 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, Bang said:

 

I guess. A country could have smuggled in a souped up version the last SARS disease that came from Wuhan, taken it to Wuhan and released it to make a nation that is aggressively pushing for world domination look like an aggressive nation.

But that seems very far-fetched. We forget that when it got out, the first scientist who raised alarms was promptly thrown in jail where he died of it.
To me the obvious is the most obvious answer. This is something they would do, it is very similar to the last version that got out. It can't just be dismissed because it doesn't match our morality. They don't match our morality and never have. The possibility is strong.
And it caused more than economic strife.. it caused violence in this country, people storming state houses, we had an actual insurrection that is still rippling and still a real threat to happen again.  We are weaker as a result, divides are deeper, trust in those who can help us is non-existent on one side of it, and they are moving ahead very quickly in terms of bulking up their military.

 

If they did not do it, it is pretty coincidental that it all worked so well in their favor.

 

~Bang

 

 

 

Or, there was no nefarious activity by anyone. That it happened either through nature or honest human error or careless. I agree that China is not our friend. But they are playing the long game which is financial strength and being a financial world leader. And they have worked towards that goal in a ruthless manner being able to outlast smart presidents and take advantage of poor presidents. They do not change governments every 4 years so they can take the long vision.

 

Thinking they actually launched a serious disease on purpose is a bit too much James Bond'ish or Robert Ludlum (Read the Prometheus Deception among others). Keep in mind I have spent a cumulative 1 yr plus in China and know the people and their customs very well. 

 

I am not saying it's impossible. I am saying that for me human error is much more likely to be the cause - something that could have been cut off had Trump not removed the scientists Obama had gotten China's WHO to agree we have in their organization. What I also know is that they do not follow the same safety guidelines we do - see the train lines falling apart after 5 years or less, specifically in the mountains near Fuzhou. The Birds Nest from the Olympics was literally falling apart 4 yrs after the olympics. So again, my belief is it's much more likely to be human error or carelessness than some nefarious effort at world destruction. 

 

Again, they are having a great amount of success financially becoming the world leader. And killing millions of their own does not help that goal. Nor really does killing other nations peoples by having a deadly disease running wild all over the world. If nothing else, quite pragmatically they need people to want and need their goods and services, in country and all over the world. That is not helped by mass killing. 

 

[Bang]

17 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The US reaffirming our global leadership in vaccine/medical technology and leading the world into the post-pandemic by distributing it to our allies worked out well for China?

 

The US being on the brink of civil war seems to put that at a distant second. You think this disease didn't help to further destabilize us? They watched these lunaticvs overrunning state houses, they saw how quickly we drew up the lines of partisanship. Seeing how unbalanced we are is more than enough motive to try to tip us even further. (and it did exactly that.)
Interesting debate today..  the anniversary of the Chinese government sending tanks to run over their own people. They don't really care about their citizenry the way we'd expect.
I am not saying it did happen the way it seems or it didn't. I think the possibility is too strong to ignore. It should be explored until we know as much as we can about it's origin and how it got to the proportion it did. 

 

it could have occurred naturally. Or it might not have. given where it came from, given the previous SARS outbreak, it's too coincidental to just dismiss it, especially the way they operate.

The Trump admin acted exactly the way a belligerent nation would hope they would act if they wanted this to destabilize the US. 
And again,, that is not hard to predict. That is almost a given.

Anyway, gotta go to work. Be back later. Peace fellas!

 

~Bang

Edited June 4, 2021 by Bang

[Larry]

12 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Or, there was no nefarious activity by anyone. That it happened either through nature or honest human error or careless. I agree that China is not our friend. But they are playing the long game which is financial strength and being a financial world leader. And they have worked towards that goal in a ruthless manner being able to outlast smart presidents and take advantage of poor presidents. They do not change governments every 4 years so they can take the long vision.

 

Strongly agree.  

 

Since WW2, America's biggest strength has been our economy, dominating the world's.  China intends to take that advantage for themselves.  That's the big threat that they represent.  

 

And the only way to counter that, is for the world to unify against them.  Which is why they don't want the US to unify things.  

 

22 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The US reaffirming our global leadership in vaccine/medical technology and leading the world into the post-pandemic by distributing it to our allies worked out well for China?

 

You see the US coming out of this crisis looking like the world's leader?  

 

Near as I can tell, a good chunk of the world has their borders closed to the US, and only the US.  They don't see us as the savior of this thing.  They see us as the biggest source of infection.  

Edited June 4, 2021 by Larry

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Strongly agree.  

 

Since WW2, America's biggest strength has been our economy, dominating the world's.  China intends to take that advantage for themselves.  That's the big threat that they represent.  

 

And the only way to counter that, is for the world to unify against them.  Which is why they don't want the US to unify things.  

 

 

You see the US coming out of this crisis looking like the world's leader?  

 

Near as I can tell, a good chunk of the world has their borders closed to the US, and only the US.  They don't see us as the savior of this thing.  They see us as the biggest source of infection.  

Oh really, because I’m posting right now from Reykjavík, Iceland which has just recently opened its borders to tourists...but essentially only from the United States.

 

Primarily due to the fact that our vaccine rollout and vaccine efficacy is among the best in the world.

[goskins10]

35 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

You see the US coming out of this crisis looking like the world's leader?  

 

Near as I can tell, a good chunk of the world has their borders closed to the US, and only the US.  They don't see us as the savior of this thing.  They see us as the biggest source of infection.  

 

27 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Oh really, because I’m posting right now from Reykjavík, Iceland which has just recently opened its borders to tourists...but essentially only from the United States.

 

Primarily due to the fact that our vaccine rollout and vaccine efficacy is among the best in the world.

 

I think both of these are true. Early on the US was far behind and was not a world leader and in fact was more considered the source of the issue. However, over the last 4 to 5 months we have emerged as a world leader again. 

 

This was made possible by two things - as much as I loathe trump, his administration did help the increased speed in developing the vaccine. The fact he then used politics to decide who would get it is a different story. But credit where credit is due. Then Biden put adults back in charge of the entire roll-out process and we have gotten vaccinated at a very high rate and have better containment processes in place. 

 

So yes, early on and as late as Jan/Feb most of the world was afraid of us and considered Americans highly contagious. However, since the speedy rollout of vaccines we are getting closer to our role as world leader. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by goskins10

[Bang]

totally agree on China's economic strategy.. but give a look at their recent military buildups, and the speed in which they are happening. They are actively threatening their neighbors even if they aren't coming right out and saying so or actively shooting (yet). It is sounding some alarms.

 

We've always done the cat and mouse in the South China sea with them, and now they are pushing it further. Their neighbors in the region are quite nervous about it.

Beal, are you really in Reykjavik? If so, I'm envious, I'd like to get to Iceland someday, hopefully soon.

 

~Bang

Edited June 4, 2021 by Bang

[TradeTheBeal!]

30 minutes ago, Bang said:

totally agree on China's economic strategy.. but give a look at their recent military buildups, and the speed in which they are happening. They are actively threatening their neighbors even if they aren't coming right out and saying so or actively shooting (yet). It is sounding some alarms.

 

We've always done the cat and mouse in the South China sea with them, and now they are pushing it further. Their neighbors in the region are quite nervous about it.

Beal, are you really in Reykjavik? If so, I'm envious, I'd like to get to Iceland someday, hopefully soon.

 

~Bang

Tis a wondrous place.  Volcano tomorrow!

 

 

 

 

[Llevron]

Its not really that hard for me to believe that this virus was made in a lab in china at all

Nor is it hard for me to believe that they weaponized it, though I would say they did a piss poor job at it. 

My problem is that its also not hard for me to believe that it did occur naturally, as has happened before, and since we have no solid proof yet that it actually was created in a lab natural occurrence seems more likely to me. 

Add that to the fact that i know its human nature to assume that something so huge and life changing as this pandemic was' just HAD to be caused by something big or scary or insidious.....because how else could something like this happen and destroy my life like this? That's a natural thought. Its also what leads people down the conspiracy rabbit hole. And so knowing this I try to protect myself (and others) by waiting until I have proof of something before i begin to believe it. Right now in my mind its the JFK/black umbrella thing all over again until i get some evidence that it isn't. 

 

But once I see something factual, i wont be shy about changing my mind. I never am. 

[Jabbyrwock]

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

But once I see something factual, i wont be shy about changing my mind. I never am. 

 

True fact: the problem with most people is not their ability to change their mind when they see something factual, rather it is their ability to actually discern what is, and is not, a "fact".

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[Busch1724]

That blow money won't raise itself.

[Llevron]

30 minutes ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

True fact: the problem with most people is not their ability to change their mind when they see something factual, rather it is their ability to actually discern what is, and is not, a "fact".

 

True. I guess I trust myself to source my information. Its one of the gifts we get from ES though; being able to test our 'facts' against others who we know well enough to trust or not.....and at the same time are foreign enough to tell us the truth regardless of our feelings on the subject. Its a dichotomy that I think makes my opinions and ability to recognize the truth stronger in the long run. 

 

Easy example. Yall remember when I thought the word proof was spelled prof? I never make that mistake anymore lol. It has nothing to do with truth. I just think about it every time I write the word proof now. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Llevron

[China]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

Its not really that hard for me to believe that this virus was made in a lab in china at all

Nor is it hard for me to believe that they weaponized it, though I would say they did a piss poor job at it. 

My problem is that its also not hard for me to believe that it did occur naturally, as has happened before, and since we have no solid proof yet that it actually was created in a lab natural occurrence seems more likely to me. 

Add that to the fact that i know its human nature to assume that something so huge and life changing as this pandemic was' just HAD to be caused by something big or scary or insidious.....because how else could something like this happen and destroy my life like this? That's a natural thought. Its also what leads people down the conspiracy rabbit hole. And so knowing this I try to protect myself (and others) by waiting until I have proof of something before i begin to believe it. Right now in my mind its the JFK/black umbrella thing all over again until i get some evidence that it isn't. 

 

But once I see something factual, i wont be shy about changing my mind. I never am. 

 

I'm wondering if anyone read the article I posted both in this thread and the Covid thread:

 

The Wuhan Lab Leak Hypothesis Is A Conspiracy Theory, Not Science

[Jabbyrwock]

10 minutes ago, China said:

 

I'm wondering if anyone read the article I posted both in this thread and the Covid thread:

 

The Wuhan Lab Leak Hypothesis Is A Conspiracy Theory, Not Science

 

I'ma just leave this here:

 

Integrated Whale Media Investments

 

😉

[mcsluggo]

On 6/3/2021 at 10:31 AM, Dan T. said:

I could use some comic relief...

 

ahh... the legendary "massage with comic relief" that we hear so much about

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

 

Easy example. Yall remember when I thought the word proof was spelled prof? I never make that mistake anymore lol. It has nothing to do with truth. I just think about it every time I write the word proof now. 

I remember one of my first posts here was about frivolous lawsuits like the lady who sued McDonald’s after she spilled coffee.  I had no idea about the details behind that suit until someone here told me and I then fact checked it.  Then I admitted I was wrong.  People here seemed caught very off guard by that.  I guess that wasn’t a common thing.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[China]

More evidence that Trump supporters are ****ty people:

 

"Trump Man" Busted For Serial Pooping Spree

 

A 70-year-old Ohio man who told cops he was a “Trump man” confessed to repeatedly urinating and defecating in front of a neighbor’s home because the residents "are Democrats and support Joe Biden," according to a police report.

 

Jerry Detrick, the accused septuagenarian serial pooper, was cited Sunday for littering after the homeowner caught him in the act around 3:15 AM in Greenville, a western Ohio city.

 

Investigators say that Matthew Guyette called 911 after spotting a man squatting down and relieving himself near a privet hedge outside the home Guyette, 59, shares with his husband. Upon being confronted by Guyette, the suspect got up and walked away from the property.

 

Based on a description provided by Guyette, police subsequently identified Detrick, a retired high school teacher, as a suspect in the predawn pooping. Detrick, seen at right, lives a couple of blocks from Guyette’s residence.

 

During police questioning, Detrick reportedly admitted to urinating in Guyette’s yard on May 30, and also copped to previously defecating on the victim’s property "multiple times."

 

Detrick, cops say, admitted targeting the home because Guyette and his spouse "are Democrats and support Joe Biden," while he is a “Trump man.” A patrolman noted that Detrick's statement "leads me to believe this incident is politically motivated."

 

Click on the link for the full article

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

 

[mcsluggo]

7 hours ago, Bang said:

 

I guess. A country could have smuggled in a souped up version the last SARS disease that came from Wuhan, taken it to Wuhan and released it to make a nation that is aggressively pushing for world domination look like an aggressive nation.

But that seems very far-fetched. We forget that when it got out, the first scientist who raised alarms was promptly thrown in jail where he died of it. They tried like hell to shut it up. They introduced the "bat soup" theory. Keeps everyone off balance, slows reactions, slows responses, and again, do not discount how easy the Trump admin's idiocy helped make it worse. And that was easy to predict. Destabilization, infighting .. we are a mess.
To me the obvious is the most obvious answer. This is something they would do, it is very similar to the last version that got out. It can't just be dismissed because it doesn't match our morality. They don't match our morality and never have. The possibility is strong.
And it caused more than economic strife.. it caused violence in this country, people storming state houses, we had an actual insurrection that is still rippling and still a real threat to happen again.  We are weaker as a result, divides are deeper, trust in those who can help us is non-existent on one side of it, and they are moving ahead very quickly in terms of bulking up their military.

 

If they did not do it, it is pretty coincidental that it all worked so well in their favor.

 

~Bang

 

 

 

a more likely scenario is that the chinese were (are) working on weaponizing the sars virus and shoddy laboratory procedures allowed it to escape into the home market 

 

[PeterMP]

  

8 hours ago, Bang said:

I truly don't understand why it would be hard to believe the Chinese built it and leaked it. The last SARS disease that originated in the same place was bad, but easily killed due to how it worked within th body. This one is basically the same, but it is much harder to kill because either IT learned how to become more resistant to treatments, or somebody built it to be that. 

 

That they built it is hard to believe because it doesn't have any trademarks of things that we would normally see if humans had done work on it.  When working with DNA and RNA in order to do the work (e.g. change or insert sequences), there are certain tools and "tricks" that would be used in most cases by humans.  Those tools and tricks require and result in certain things in the resulting sequence.

 

The virus doesn't have any of those.  

 

Now, why people are so against this was the result of some accidental exposure in the lab or a "leak" from the lab, I'm less sure. 

 

It is known that this lab worked with other similar viruses (the known closest virus to the Covid-19 virus is known to us based on work done at the Wuhan facility).  It seems like Covid-19 could be the result of in lab propagation of one of the viruses they already had (i.e. mutations that occurred naturally in the lab as the propagated the virus to work with it).

 

Our own State Dept. apparently was concerned about safety issues and before the pandemic.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/03/08/josh-rogin-chaos-under-heaven-wuhan-lab-book-excerpt-474322

 

That a lab that worked with a very similar virus and had safety concerns accidently allowed one of the viruses to be released doesn't seem overly shocking to me.  I haven't seen anybody explain to a degree that I would consider adequate as to why that's extremely unlikely.

 

Then you throw in the apparent reluctance of the Chinese to cooperate and help determine where it started (starting with the incorrect story that it originated in the market to blaming us for making it, releasing it, and spreading it there, etc.)

 

And the supposed report that people at the facility had it early on (which I'm not sure how much stock you put in to that story or the report if the report actually exists).

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by PeterMP