What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[Jabbyrwock]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

You have some Bible verses to back this up?

The problem with these kind of questions is that there is an absolutely enormous body of apologetics that has carefully crafted a ready made "explanation" to explain away the passages in the bible that would, and should, be considered abhorrent in this day and age.  This kind of soft rewriting of the bible is acceptable to some, I guess.  For myself...I generally think of it as patronizing and insulting to even my limited intellect.

 

As an example pertinent to the discussion @Koolblue13 brought up, I can immediately think of 1 Timothy 2:12 (and im still innebriated in a post game fog).  But I'm sure there is some tired apologetics that explains this passage doesn't actually mean that no woman should have authority over a man, or should just be quiet. 

 

Or 1 Corinthians 14:34...if they desire to learn let them ask their husbands (the blind leading the blind verse)

 

1 Corinthians 11:3 tho...that one is clearly wisdom.  The "get me a sammich verse".

 

And speaking of sammiches...i better get me another one if I expect to get thru the rest of my post loss rum unscathed.

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, Jabbyrwock said:

The problem with these kind of questions is that there is an absolutely enormous body of apologetics that has carefully crafted a ready made "explanation" to explain away the passages in the bible that would, and should, be considered abhorrent in this day and age.  This kind of soft rewriting of the bible is acceptable to some, I guess.  For myself...I generally think of it as patronizing and insulting to even my limited intellect.

 

There are lots of interpretations of the bible based on the answer you want on the internet. This is true for suicide, too, but I'll get to that later. Often there are women's conferences at my church, and the question of a wife submitting to her husband comes up a lot.  This is an African church, btw, so some are coming from more conservative lifestyles then we are used to in the states.  The pastor says the same thing everytime about how if a husband loves his wife he isnt supposed to hurt her.  Ephesians 5:25 is an example of loving your wife as you love Christ, in context of thinking what you wouldn't do to Christ you wouldn't do to your wife.  

Quote

“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”

 

5:28 and 5:29 go further

 

Quote

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

 

This isn't a 2021 interpretation, this is what the book says in KJV.  Up to Christians to do it.

 

3 hours ago, Jabbyrwock said:

As an example pertinent to the discussion @Koolblue13 brought up, I can immediately think of 1 Timothy 2:12 (and im still innebriated in a post game fog).  But I'm sure there is some tired apologetics that explains this passage doesn't actually mean that no woman should have authority over a man, or should just be quiet. 

 

A lot of people believe thats in reference to leadership and teaching roles in the church.  I don't agree with it, our pastor has one of the elder female members give sermon once a month.  Here's that verse in context:

 

Quote

⁷ 

2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

² For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

³ For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

⁴ Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

⁵ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

⁶ Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

⁸ I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

⁹ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

¹⁰ But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

¹¹ Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

¹² But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 

https://juniaproject.com/defusing-1-timothy-212-bomb/

 

3 hours ago, Jabbyrwock said:

Or 1 Corinthians 14:34...if they desire to learn let them ask their husbands (the blind leading the blind verse)

 

Quote

³⁴ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

³⁵ And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

We don't do this anymore, women talk in church and ask questions all the time now, who's preaching this?  I'm not excusing it being in there, its wrong and i dont agree with their decision to write that 2000+ years ago.  Every church i've been to doesnt do this anymore, same with not sacrificing goats.

 

3 hours ago, Jabbyrwock said:

1 Corinthians 11:3 tho...that one is clearly wisdom.  The "get me a sammich verse".

 

Thats not what that verse says at all:

 

Quote

³ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

If you want to snap on the head of household role for the husband from a christian standpoint, jus understand Ive been told to reference to verses like Ephesians 5:25,28-29 as examples of why not to be an asshole and demand a sandwich from your wife.

 

 

But I don't feel like spending all day defending Christianity when sometimes it wont defend me.  Thats not why I'm here.

 

I talked to my wife and father and they both explained how suicide was an unforgivable sin.  1 Corinthians 3:17 has an example of this:

 

Quote

¹⁷ If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

It is maddening that God would create us on an individual basis, with mental health issues, and the ultimate price for a catastrophic failure from that disease is eternal damnation.  I was nearly in tears before posting this thinking about it, my cousins step-daughter shot herself two weeks ago.  Its not fair, I met her before, good kid, getting treatment and meds, only 17.  I'm struggling coming out of a depression freefall because of researching this topic, it makes me feel abandon by religion when i need it most.

 

There are interpretations that suggest it is forgivable, seems like a stupid rule and huge gamble.

 

[Koolblue13]

"Interpretation".

 

[Epochalypse]

I've found that as a Christian it makes more sense to me that the Bible is not 100% the word of God.  It is a book that has been written and interpreted by imperfect men over centuries, and those men intentionally and perhaps in some cases unintentionally injected their own biases into the translations.

[The Sisko]

 

On 9/27/2021 at 2:53 AM, Renegade7 said:

 

There are lots of interpretations of the bible based on the answer you want on the internet. This is true for suicide, too, but I'll get to that later. Often there are women's conferences at my church, and the question of a wife submitting to her husband comes up a lot.  This is an African church, btw, so some are coming from more conservative lifestyles then we are used to in the states.  The pastor says the same thing everytime about how if a husband loves his wife he isnt supposed to hurt her.  Ephesians 5:25 is an example of loving your wife as you love Christ, in context of thinking what you wouldn't do to Christ you wouldn't do to your wife. 

So we shouldn't be having sex with our wives then? Just a lil jokey joke.💩

 

Reading your response and the page you linked to about the 1 Timothy bomb, I can't help but agree with @Jabbyrwock's  (Dude, what, Jabberwocky wasn't hard enough to spell?😃) point about the apologetics. It kind of reminds me of a debate, almost argument I had with my wife when I was still on the god train. She brought up Islam's version of the 1 Timothy bomb, i.e. the Surah An-Nisa wife beating bomb. I responded with the usual apologetics and we went back and forth until it occurred to me that if one has to twist oneself into a logic pretzel to come up with explanations like this, there's a problem with the book, not people's interpretation of it.

 

Let's look at it this way. God is allegedly supposed to be eternal and omniscient. As such, why would it decide to leave as its final message to mankind (according to Xtians anyway) a bunch of rules that people would almost need to be religious legal scholars with an understanding of several ancient languages to avoid misinterpreting them? Note that I'm not talking about parables which most anyone can get the meaning of, but actual rules, i.e. do this/don't do that?

 

On 9/27/2021 at 5:20 PM, Epochalypse said:

I've found that as a Christian it makes more sense to me that the Bible is not 100% the word of God.  It is a book that has been written and interpreted by imperfect men over centuries, and those men intentionally and perhaps in some cases unintentionally injected their own biases into the translations.

 

^^This. But then that kind of goes back to KB's point about how great a tool it is for manipulation. To quote Napoleon, “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”

Edited September 29, 2021 by The Sisko

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, The Sisko said:

 

So we shouldn't be having sex with our wives then? Just a lil jokey joke.💩

 

*sigh, disappointed thats what you took from that.

 

1 minute ago, The Sisko said:

Reading your response and the page you linked to about the 1 Timothy bomb, I can't help but agree with @Jabbyrwock's  (Dude, what, Jabberwocky wasn't hard enough to spell?😃) point about the apologetics. It kind of reminds me of a debate, almost argument I had with my wife when I was still on the god train. She brought up Islam's version of the 1 Timothy bomb, i.e. the Surah An-Nisa wife beating bomb. I responded with the usual apologetics and we went back and forth until it occurred to me that if one has to twist oneself into a logic pretzel to come up with explanations like this, there's a problem with the book, not people's interpretation of it.

 

Its not a logical pretzel, that verse is not the word of God, its in a letter from Paul, a human.  I posted a link with context, did you read it? 

 

Theres an incredible amount of background and reasoning into why certain things are in the Bible, what they mean, and how they are connected.  We're talking about scriptures that have been translated, retranslated,  and passed down through generations. 

 

Trying to understand it is work, Bible study, listening to sermons, Theology is a field of study that people go to school for and overlaps with archeology which people devote their lives to understanding.  

 

1 minute ago, The Sisko said:

Let's look at it this way. God is allegedly supposed to be eternal and omniscient. As such, why would it decide to leave as its final message to mankind (according to Xtians anyway) a bunch of rules that people would almost need to be religious legal scholars with an understanding of several ancient languages to avoid misinterpreting it? Note that I'm not talking about parables which most anyone can get the meaning of, but actual rules, i.e. do this/don't do that?

 

Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, both are around today.  A lot of the rules are pretty straightforward, whether we like them or follow them is a different story.  The Bible also has to be looked in context of the time the stories were gathered and retold before it was even compiled into the Bible we talk about today.  

 

Let's not get it twisted, man wrote the Bible, and thats the point @Epochalypse was trying to make.  I wouldn't want to tear down Thomas Jefferson's statue because he owned slaves, why should I blast the Bible for not denouncing slavery when it was so common place in the world during the Old Testament? Historical context, different world, man.

 

1 minute ago, The Sisko said:

 

^^This. But then that kind of goes back to KB's point about how great a tool it is for manipulation. To quote Napoleon, “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”

 

Thats organized religion, no one is denying that.  The Bible, however is an inanimate object.  Many of the justified anger towards organized religion needs to be directed at the individuals who used that book for those means, picking and choosing which verses to justify their actions.  But the book didn't do that.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Best place to learn about the Bible is Landover Baptist. 

[Jabbyrwock]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

Dude, what, Jabberwocky wasn't hard enough to spell?😃

 

 

[Epochalypse]

White Christian Americans Must Be Honest About Their Sins | Time

[86 Snyder]

On 9/27/2021 at 2:53 AM, Renegade7 said:

 

There are lots of interpretations of the bible based on the answer you want on the internet. This is true for suicide, too, but I'll get to that later. Often there are women's conferences at my church, and the question of a wife submitting to her husband comes up a lot.  This is an African church, btw, so some are coming from more conservative lifestyles then we are used to in the states.  The pastor says the same thing everytime about how if a husband loves his wife he isnt supposed to hurt her.  Ephesians 5:25 is an example of loving your wife as you love Christ, in context of thinking what you wouldn't do to Christ you wouldn't do to your wife.  

 

5:28 and 5:29 go further

 

 

This isn't a 2021 interpretation, this is what the book says in KJV.  Up to Christians to do it.

 

 

A lot of people believe thats in reference to leadership and teaching roles in the church.  I don't agree with it, our pastor has one of the elder female members give sermon once a month.  Here's that verse in context:

 

 

https://juniaproject.com/defusing-1-timothy-212-bomb/

 

 

 

We don't do this anymore, women talk in church and ask questions all the time now, who's preaching this?  I'm not excusing it being in there, its wrong and i dont agree with their decision to write that 2000+ years ago.  Every church i've been to doesnt do this anymore, same with not sacrificing goats.

 

 

Thats not what that verse says at all:

 

 

If you want to snap on the head of household role for the husband from a christian standpoint, jus understand Ive been told to reference to verses like Ephesians 5:25,28-29 as examples of why not to be an asshole and demand a sandwich from your wife.

 

 

But I don't feel like spending all day defending Christianity when sometimes it wont defend me.  Thats not why I'm here.

 

I talked to my wife and father and they both explained how suicide was an unforgivable sin.  1 Corinthians 3:17 has an example of this:

 

 

It is maddening that God would create us on an individual basis, with mental health issues, and the ultimate price for a catastrophic failure from that disease is eternal damnation.  I was nearly in tears before posting this thinking about it, my cousins step-daughter shot herself two weeks ago.  Its not fair, I met her before, good kid, getting treatment and meds, only 17.  I'm struggling coming out of a depression freefall because of researching this topic, it makes me feel abandon by religion when i need it most.

 

There are interpretations that suggest it is forgivable, seems like a stupid rule and huge gamble.

 

 

Personally, when laying out the rules for all of civilization to follow as a guide to salvation and avoid eternal torture, which rules by the way will never be amended because it would be blasphemous to do so, I prefer the omniscient one to do so in a clear and concise fashion so that nothing is left up to "interpretation".

 

Oh well.

[Epochalypse]

I would agree that would be ideal but it comes down to choice.  And it feels like God is most interested in our choices, based on the tidbits of information provided.  In my view of things, there is deliberately enough room for interpretation to allow one's true self to come out.  Are you erring on the side of love or condemnation?  Inclusion or exclusion?  Are you choosing to follow the example of Peter putting down his sword or going to war for "promised land"?  It's like a Rorschach test...how people interpret the ambiguity says quite a bit.

[PleaseBlitz]

31 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Personally, when laying out the rules for all of civilization to follow as a guide to salvation and avoid eternal torture, which rules by the way will never be amended because it would be blasphemous to do so, I prefer the omniscient one to do so in a clear and concise fashion so that nothing is left up to "interpretation".

 

Oh well.

 

Also would have been nice if He provided them near the beginning of human existence and not waited 198,000 years or so. 

[Jabbyrwock]

17 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Also would have been nice if He provided them near the beginning of human existence and not waited 198,000 years or so. 

 

[ThomasRoane]

On 9/27/2021 at 5:20 PM, Epochalypse said:

I've found that as a Christian it makes more sense to me that the Bible is not 100% the word of God.  It is a book that has been written and interpreted by imperfect men over centuries, and those men intentionally and perhaps in some cases unintentionally injected their own biases into the translations.

 

Have you heard of Dr. Michael Heiser?  He's a Hebrew/Greek scholar who has a really good podcast (Naked Bible Podcast) and is the author of several books.  Namely, The Unseen Realm.  Here's his website:  Dr. Michael Heiser - Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert (drmsh.com)

 

I am a Christian and I'll admit that there are many thorny issues in the Bible that can really make your head spin.  People like Dr. Heiser have been very helpful.  (N.T. Wright, Carmen Imes, John H. Walton, Tim Mackie, etc. come to mind) 

 

Most of the controversial scriptures are only controversial to the modern reader.  Thanks to a treasure trove of commentaries (that many of the early church fathers lacked) that we have from the DSS and archaeology, we now have a more clear picture of the culture that the original audience of the Scriptures were accustomed to.  Most of our problems come from trying to read the Bible as a Post Modern reader.  As Dr. Heiser says, the Bible was written for us but it was not written to us.  What sense would it make for a prophet or a writer to talk about things that their audience couldn't relate to?  They wouldn't and they didn't.  

 

What does 100% Word of God mean exactly?  Dr H. also likes to remind people that there was no such thing as automatic writing when it came to the scriptures.  Paul, as an example, didn't have the concepts for his letters downloaded into his brain, write them down, and then go back to see what God had written thru him.  That was not the case at all.  There was however, a providential partnership between God and the writers of Scripture.  Explained in the quote below.

 

Quote

There is no one definition of inspiration that has been tried and true throughout the history of the Church—of the believing community. If you've been taught that, you've been taught something that is an error, that is wrong, that just is not true. It does not conform to reality at all. There's no one definition of these inspiration/inerrancy things.
    …
    
    So you're looking for a two-sided process in inspiration: something that honors the humanness of the thing created and also honors the Providential hand of God, where God molded the biblical writers for their task throughout their whole lives. He molded and prepared them for the time and place that they would write. And the results that they produced were good enough for God. If they were good enough for God, they should be good enough for us. Humans were chosen to produce the text. You actually get a hint of this in Jeremiah 25:13, where God considers the words of the writers his own words. But it doesn't say he dictated them. It says: 
     
    13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. 
     
Now, you could view that in reverse: "Well, God must have uttered all the words in Jeremiah's head. That's why God is saying this." But if you actually just look at the verse, you could go at it from the other direction. What Jeremiah wrote, God looked at and said, "Yep. That's what I wanted you to say. That captures it well. Got it. Bingo. Good job." That's the view I think we need to take because of the phenomena that arise from the text.   ~Dr. Michael Heiser, NB Podcast episode 148: Q&A 19

 

As a natural skeptic, I've probably reviewed all of the difficult scriptures there are and most times the misunderstanding was a result of not fully understanding the culture, the context, the referents, and/or the metanarrative.  I've never had more confidence in the Scriptures than I do now.  But each person should do their due diligence if they are honest truth seekers.  There are loads of resources out there.  Commentaries, books, apps, you name it.  You don't have to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar out there because many people have already done the hard work and make it easier for us laymen.  

Edited September 29, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[ThomasRoane]

19 hours ago, The Sisko said:

Let's look at it this way. God is allegedly supposed to be eternal and omniscient. As such, why would it decide to leave as its final message to mankind (according to Xtians anyway) a bunch of rules that people would almost need to be religious legal scholars with an understanding of several ancient languages to avoid misinterpreting them? Note that I'm not talking about parables which most anyone can get the meaning of, but actual rules, i.e. do this/don't do that?

 

Has it occurred to you that God's enemies, who couldn't destroy the Church thru persecution, changed tactics and joined the Church to distort or to hide the meaning of the Scriptures?  Ever hear of the Dark ages when the Roman Catholic Church would not allow the common people to read the scriptures for themselves?  Caliph Omar destroyed countless writings in Alexandria in 640AD.  Yet providentially, look how many yet we've found stored away in clay jars in the desert.  Put there by people loyal and dedicated to God.  With the early Church being the only exception, our generation has no excuse for doubting the scriptures.  We have more copies, writings, commentaries, etc. than any other generation.  Even the early Church had their hands full with gnostics and legalists.  Paul and John specifically wrote letters to expose their heresies.  

 

Here's the big picture that I think a lot of people overlook when they decide to lay all the blame at God's feet.  God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.  However, He choses to allow His children (spiritual and human) to play their parts in the battle between order and chaos, good and evil, light and darkness.   Even after those dark ages the Reformation, lead by men and women, brought the scriptures back to the common people; even the plowboys (William Tyndale reference).  For those who really want to know what the meaning is just seek and you will find.  God never fails.  His children fail to complete their tasks.  Ultimately though, He bends everything by providence (even our failures) to fulfill His will. 

 

One more thing though about rules and such; do this/don't do that.  Man!  You nailed that one!  That's what separates Christianity from the rest.  Christianity is not about do's and don'ts.  It's about what's been done.  The rules are a good mirror for us.  To see if we're on the right track.  But the harder you try to live the Christian life the more you will fail.  Only Christ can do that for us.  It's supernatural.  It's our job to live our lives with believing loyalty.  Knowing that He will do what He has promised.  As CS Lewis said, “The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us.”  A Christian should demonstrate a pattern of life that is trending up.  There may be dips here and there but behavior should be trending towards becoming more like Christ.  

 

As much as we can we are to walk in faithful obedience.  Daily feeding on the Word and spending time in prayer; relying on Christ to do the hard work.  We just have to be willing.  We will fall.  We will sin sometimes.  Regardless, His Grace will call us back to the right path again.  I love the words from We the Kingdom's song.  

 

I don't wanna abuse Your Grace

God, I need it every day

It's the only thing that ever really

Makes me want to change.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Personally, when laying out the rules for all of civilization to follow as a guide to salvation and avoid eternal torture, which rules by the way will never be amended because it would be blasphemous to do so, I prefer the omniscient one to do so in a clear and concise fashion so that nothing is left up to "interpretation".

 

Oh well.

 

Quote

Here is another thing that used to puzzle me. Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him. But in the meantime, if you are worried about the people outside, the most unreasonable thing you can do is to remain outside yourself. Christians are Christ’s body, the organism through which He works. Every addition to that body enables Him to do more. If you want to help those outside you must add your own little cell to the body of Christ who alone can help them. Cutting off a man’s fingers would be an odd way of getting him to do more work.  ~CS Lewis, Mere Christianity

 

[Epochalypse]

@ThomasRoane Thank you for the thought out reply, and I have not heard of Dr. Heiser, but based on what you provided I believe I still disagree with him.  There are things in the Bible that I do not believe are things that God would have read and "signed off" on.  I do not believe every species of living creature got on an ark, particularly when the very next narrative after is the story of the Tower of Babel, where people were then so plentiful that they could build a tower to the heavens.  The narratives about the creation, Noah's Ark, Tower of Babel, how long men have walked the earth...they read more to me like men trying to come up with something to explain the world God provided as opposed to God telling them what He did.  I can believe God exists and is God without Eve being made from Adam's rib.  I can believe God exists without a ship being able to carry two of every creature floating around for 150 days (the potable water storage alone would have sunk it).  By forcing every single thing in the Bible to be true in order for God to exist actually provides fodder for non-Christians to point to as arguments for why they can't and don't believe.  People want to force everything in the Bible to be true so they can draw their own interpretations from those words, then say that what they believe is from God.  And I say all of this as someone who reads the Bible every night and have done so for years.

 

I am more inclined to look to the example of Jesus.  When Jesus was on Earth, His lessons heavily relied on parables or the Socratic method, he rarely if ever flat out and said things directly.  If you truly "got it" you would get the right message over time.  "Let those with ears, let them hear."  Otherwise, your "heart was hardened".  The Bible is written by people.  People decided which books got in and which books were excluded, which interpretations of words were the most correct and the Bible has even evolved within translations to different versions, each of which add just enough nuance to massage the original word as written.  I don't think God condoned or condones slavery, killing homosexuals, multiple wives, etc.  All that said, I fully accept I may be wrong on all of the above.  I would agree though that there is enough of God's influence in the Bible to ensure that those with ears would hear, and He provided enough breadcrumbs to show that there is a specific plan in place.  But I do not believe every single word is divinity on paper.

 

I also believe as I said previously that God is interested in our choices.  If He wanted to He could have wired us to have no choice but worship Him.  He didn't.  I believe that while He detests sin, He created it as an alternative option for His creation.  If you believe as I do that God is omnipotent and omniscient, the fact that He doesn't remove sin from existence suggests it is part of His plan.  The fact He created Satan, knowing he'd rebel, the fact (if you believe the Creation story) He puts a tree in Eden that teaches mankind of sin knowing they'll eat it, suggests sin in the lives of mankind was always the intention.  With that in mind, the question then becomes why would God allow that?  And it comes back to choice.  Which is why I have such a problem with much of the Evangelical push to force Christianity into our government and people's lives.  It's like they decry radical Islamic terrorists for trying to establish a Caliphate forcing people to be Muslims, and turn around and want to force everyone here to be Christians.  I've read nothing in the Bible that tells me God wants us to force Christianity down people's throats.  We are supposed to be presenting ourselves in such a way as to present Christianity as the best option, so people will come to Him because they want the joy you have.  Not by force.  Not all this hate.  If we truly (as I believe) have the best marketing pitch for how to live this life and after, act like it.  I've said it many times before and I continue to say it, the problem with Christianity isn't Christianity, it is Christians.

 

TLDR: I have a different view of Christianity than most of my fellow Christians.

[FuriousD]

Smallpox killed 300 million "souls" in the 20 century alone.  During half that timespan, the Soviets exterminated somewhere between 20-60 million of their fellow citizens in an atheistic orgy of communism.  2004 Thailand tsunami and 280,000 wiped out in a matter of minutes.  And on and on and on....... 

 

And you want to pretend He cares?

 

If He is willing but unable; then is He impotent.

If He is able but unwilling; then is He malevolent.

If He is willing and he is able; then where is He? 

[ThomasRoane]

23 minutes ago, FuriousD said:

Smallpox killed 300 million "souls" in the 20 century alone.  During half that timespan, the Soviets exterminated somewhere between 20-60 million of their fellow citizens in an atheistic orgy of communism.  2004 Thailand tsunami and 280,000 wiped out in a matter of minutes.  And on and on and on....... 

 

And you want to pretend He cares?

 

If He is willing but unable; then is He impotent.

If He is able but unwilling; then is He malevolent.

If He is willing and he is able; then where is He? 

 

The Father cared enough to send His only begotten (one-of-a-kind) Son to take our place on the cross to pay for our sins so that we could spend eternity with Him without ever having to fear death or feel sorrow again.  Not to float on clouds and play harps all day.  But to participate in wild and exciting new adventures as rulers, teachers, priests, explorers, etc.  Before you go there, the Son volunteered to get up on the cross by the way.  

 

Hebrews 10

5 Therefore, as he was coming into the world, he said:

You did not desire sacrifice and offering,
but you prepared a body for me.
6 You did not delight
in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.
7 Then I said, “See—
it is written about me
in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, God.”

 

We see things from inside time and space.  The Father sees all things as if they've already happened.  In your mind, all of these tragedies have recently (in relation to mankind's history) taken place.  However, the Father has seen to it that all things will work out for the good for those who love Him.  I know it may seem an easy thing for you to put yourself in the Judgment seat about what should have or should not have happened.  You don't see the butterfly effects that ripple thru time.  Third, fourth, fifth order effects that began as acts of evil that worked out for the greater good.  (The Father plays chess while the enemy is still playing checkers) The early Christians were brutally persecuted in Rome.  Human torches, sacrificed to wild animals, etc.  That forced many Christians to free all throughout the Roman empire.  Bringing the Gospel as far as Britain and eventually to most of the known world.  He used the devils roads to spread His good news.  

[NoCalMike]

I am no religious scholar but the entire premise of "nevermind your suffering now, because later on......." comes off like it was written by those in power who look to exploit the peasants and needed some kind of "higher" justification for their exploitation and mistreatment of those deemed not worthy.  How do you stifle revolt?  By convincing people that it is all "part of the plan" 

[Epochalypse]

@FuriousD I don't know if your post was posed to me but I'll wade in.  I'll start by saying I don't want to pretend He cares.  I believe He cares.

 

There are a lot of good things in this world, but there are a lot of bad things as well.  In this world there is suffering, pain, depression, hatred, loss, evil.  If this world were without such things, no one would want to leave it.  No one would want to seek God and heaven.  If this world were perfect, this would be heaven and to depart it would be something to be feared, avoided.

 

Knowing pain and suffering allows us to better appreciate when we feel good.  Knowing depression allows us to better appreciate joy.  Knowing what it is like to lose someone or something allows us to appreciate the time we had with them and the time we still have with others.  Knowing that there are evil people in this world allows us to recognize and appreciate when we meet the good people.  And sometimes these tragedies lead to good.  I remember moments when we would see a more unified America, during times like after Katrina, or 9-11 when (more) people (not all) would be nicer to each other following these tragedies.  It was unfortunately far too short-lived, but those moments were there.

 

I don't believe this world is all there is.  When I see people talking about wanting to live forever, I shake my head.  I am not even 50 years old and a career in the military has me feeling aches and pains every day.  Belief gives me a reason to search for joy amongst the pain, a reason to serve others and put them before myself (when I am strong enough to do so), a reason to love when I could hate, a reason to persevere when things all seem to be falling apart around me.  My belief tells me that what awaits me puts all of this to shame, so I shouldn't get too attached to this material world.  I can give more to charity because things on this world hold less value.  When it's my time to move on, I know the discussion came up earlier in the thread but I can say I don't fear death, I do fear the pain that may accompany it, so a nice quiet sleep that I never wake me up would suit me just fine.  The situations you mentioned above would obviously not be high on my list of ways to go out, but it helps knowing that whatever form that takes is temporary and again, nothing compared to what comes after.

 

Best I can offer.

[Epochalypse]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I am no religious scholar but the entire premise of "nevermind your suffering now, because later on......." comes off like it was written by those in power who look to exploit the peasants and needed some kind of "higher" justification for their exploitation and mistreatment of those deemed not worthy.  How do you stifle revolt?  By convincing people that it is all "part of the plan" 

That is certainly a pessimistic view of it, and there is no doubt that there are many examples of it being used that way.

 

But at its core, the message is hope, and no matter whether you believe or not I would think you cannot deny the power of hope and how important hope is for people to help them get through some very dark and painful times.

 

As for the Christian aspect of it, I would offer that the notion that there is something beyond this world should provide us a greater opportunity to be better people in this world.  For those who choose to view it that way.

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, Epochalypse said:

@ThomasRoane Thank you for the thought out reply, and I have not heard of Dr. Heiser, but based on what you provided I believe I still disagree with him.  There are things in the Bible that I do not believe are things that God would have read and "signed off" on.  I do not believe every species of living creature got on an ark, particularly when the very next narrative after is the story of the Tower of Babel, where people were then so plentiful that they could build a tower to the heavens. 

 

Thank you.  If I may, there's actually one thing that I enjoy discussing more than football and that's theology.  (Hard to believe I know)  I'm not interested in debating or trying to sway your beliefs.  I too struggled with a lot of the very same passages that you pointed out.  If it's okay with you, I'd like to share some of the information that I found.  There are a lot of strange things in the Bible that require more than just a concordance or a word study.  I won't take anything personal and I respect your beliefs.  Permit me please to try and explain what I've discovered.

 

First, I'd like to address the remark about the things would have read and signed off on statement.  God was dealing with an ancient near eastern people group who were not dumb cave men.  However, they didn't have the scientific instruments and knowledge that we have today.  Funny, I'll bet in the end, when Christ returns we'll look back at what we thought we know and realize we were quite off the mark on many things as well.  Just because there is a text in the Bible that doesn't mean that God agreed 100% with what the writer believed about his world.  God knew that the world was not flat with a dome and great tree.  Jesus surely knew that the orchid seed was smaller than the mustard seed.  He was the Creator after all.  Neither of them thought it was important.  Why?  Because the Bible never was meant to be a science book!  It's not about the how but it's about the why?  There are quite a few accounts in the Bible that are really ugly. 

 

Rape, incest, betrayal, etc.  Just because they're in the Bible that doesn't mean that God approves of them.  He allowed them because there are important lessons to be learned.  For each of those we see the results.  Heartache, misery, etc.  None of the Patriarchs were perfect.  They all did some things that they wouldn't be proud off.  In the end, they put their faith in God and He redeemed them.  That lets us, the sinner today, see that He is a God of grace and mercy not desiring that any should perish. (He's never changed)

 

As for Noah's ark.  The writer of Genesis had no idea how big the world was.  As far as he was concerned, Moses (and some contemporary editors), thought that the nations surrounding the Mediterranean Sea was the whole world.  By the way, there is scientific support for a regional flood event.  Also noteworthy is that every surrounding civilization has some kind of flood narrative in their lore and myths.   God didn't feel the need to interject and say "well actually Moses, there's a couple more continents to the west.  North and South America.  And there's this land in the far south pacific where giant jack rabbits run around with pouches to hold their babies." What was important was that God created.  God decreated.  God recreated again.  

 

I'll get to the Tower of Babel next.  That's far more fascinating than you could imagine.  

[Renegade7]

34 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I am no religious scholar but the entire premise of "nevermind your suffering now, because later on......." comes off like it was written by those in power who look to exploit the peasants and needed some kind of "higher" justification for their exploitation and mistreatment of those deemed not worthy.  How do you stifle revolt?  By convincing people that it is all "part of the plan" 

 

Thats...cynical.  Bible is full of stories of people going through and praying to get through it, life is hard, it doesn't pretend its not.

[ThomasRoane]

57 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I am no religious scholar but the entire premise of "nevermind your suffering now, because later on......." comes off like it was written by those in power who look to exploit the peasants and needed some kind of "higher" justification for their exploitation and mistreatment of those deemed not worthy.  How do you stifle revolt?  By convincing people that it is all "part of the plan" 

 

Well, it would be one thing if we were promised we wouldn't suffer.  He told us clearly take up your cross and follow me.  

 

The question is, why do we suffer?  That was not God's intention.  Mankind was created to live in communion with God from the beginning.  To spread Eden throughout the whole world.  To be priests and to bring order to the rest of the lands.  Hence the command be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth.  

 

God wanted a blended family of both His spiritual (elohim - angelic) and human children.  Some of the spiritual children, Satan as you probably know Him, wasn't really keen on the idea; at the tower of Babel he would be joined by others.  He also didn't like the idea that he had to submit himself to anyone.  He wanted to be higher than God.  So, he deceived Adam and Eve with the age old lie that is repeated over and over.  Hath God said?  Twisting the words of God to deceive and to mislead.  Mankind had been given dominion over all we call the Earth.  Adam chose to believe the rebel over God and mankind had to be sent away because it's not possible to be in a Holy God's presence in a sinful state.  Being apart from God - the Giver of all Life - Adam and Eve were no longer immortal.  They would surely die.  That death however would loose their bond to the rebel - Satan.  Yet still, they were in his realm of the dead - since the Bible clearly calls him lord of the dead.  Someone had to rescue Adam, Eve, and all mankind from the curse of death and to free us all from the sting of death. 

 

In order to do so, Jesus Christ - the Messiah - also had to die in order to be able to pay the debt for all mankind.  He could not just be a mere man.  He also had to be Deity.  So, Christ came born to a woman (fully man) yet Fathered by God thru the Holy Spirit so still fully God.  The ManGod so to speak.  He came and picked a fight with the rebel from Eden and his companions.  Jesus knew He had to die so that He could pay for our sins.  The enemy didn't know.  (1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.)  By killing Christ on the cross they sealed their fate once and for all.  They lost their power over the souls of mankind. 

 

Ever since then, they pit us against one another.  They cause us to use one another.  Why?  Because they despise everything there is about us because we are loved by God.  By hurting us (or better for them - getting us to hurt one another) they imagine they are hurting God.  It's foolish though.  Because in the end, they lose.  We win.  We are given access to paradise.  They are destined for eternal misery and despair.   They know that and that, is why we all suffer.  This supernatural enemy hates you and hates me.  Even those who serve them regret it in the end.  They love to break their toys.  ~CS Lewis, That Hideous Strength

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, FuriousD said:

Smallpox killed 300 million "souls" in the 20 century alone.  During half that timespan, the Soviets exterminated somewhere between 20-60 million of their fellow citizens in an atheistic orgy of communism.  2004 Thailand tsunami and 280,000 wiped out in a matter of minutes.  And on and on and on....... 

 

And you want to pretend He cares?

 

If He is willing but unable; then is He impotent.

If He is able but unwilling; then is He malevolent.

If He is willing and he is able; then where is He? 

 

Bible says after he kicks us out the Garden of Eden that we are going to go through it, and that he has no plans to end all suffering until the end times.  In the meantime, its our responsibility as humans to look out for each other and this planet He's given us dominion over.

 

Smallpox and tsunamis come with the territory of living on this volatile planet, and wasn't the most inviting even before we showed up. We have an immune system for a reason, the planet is covered with microorganisms that can kill us. Many natural disasters are the earth's way of cleansing itself, wildfires are neccesary, volcanoes create new land. But as what point do we take responsibility for this climate change disaster instead blaming God for not stopping natural disasters?  When do we step up and stop this new mass extinction we are in?

 

Stalin is a perfect example of something that is not God's fault, it is ours.  We as a species failed to do anything about what he was doing, UN and everything.  BTW, is their an example of an atheistic society that isn't a hot mess from a human rights violations standpoint?  Are we really going to blame God for that, too?

 

Sorry if it comes across as venting, I dont mean to talk past you or at you like that.  But I get frustrated with the question of "why did God let this happen" versus "why did WE let this happen".  So much suffering, so much pain, we need to step up instead looking for someone to blame for their inaction, what about our own?