What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[London Kev]

@Renegade7 , @PeterMP , @CousinsCowgirl84 .

 

Ok guys, I'm going to bail. I've really enjoyed the conversations and I have even learned a little about relegion. But I think we are about to hit an impasse, possible due to semantics (words like belief, faith and evidence).

Also, I think that my posts are getting a little off topic, because I'm interested to know why people believe what they believe, which isn't the question asked in the OP.

 

Up until a few months ago I don't think that I had even seen a bible. Like a lot of complex topics, the more I've learned about it, the more questions I have. As a lot of it is open to interpretation, there seems to be different answers to each question, with (IMO) no actual evidence to point to the correct interpretation, and I find this frustrating.

 

Ultimately I think that it comes down to the fact that for me, faith is not enough. Thankfully we are all different and I respect the views that you hold, I just can't believe them.

 

Have a happy Easter.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Here's a perfect example of a life of faith.

 

It begins with a conclusion, everything else is a justification of proof of evil. BTW, for those actually paying attention, this is FAR from a hypothesis because in science a hypothesis is allowed to be wrong. A life of faith either 1) moves the goalposts, 2) condemns the process. Meanwhile Beth's attitude has been the cause of much pain in the world with religion condemning science causing many diseases to flourish because theology was more important than biology.

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Here's a perfect example of a life of faith.

 

It begins with a conclusion, everything else is a justification of proof of evil. BTW, for those actually paying attention, this is FAR from a hypothesis because in science a hypothesis is allowed to be wrong. A life of faith either 1) moves the goalposts, 2) condemns the process. Meanwhile Beth's attitude has been the cause of much pain in the world with religion condemning science causing many diseases to flourish because theology was more important than biology.

 

You seem to be suggesting a very narrow idea of a "life of faith".  There are plenty of people that would label themselves as believers, theist, or people of faith that have no problem with the idea that we can use logic and our brains and senses to understand the natural world and universe.

 

(And such people pre-dated modern science).

 

What you are saying does and has happened, but that does not capture everybody and paints an incomplete picture.

[AsburySkinsFan]

22 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

You seem to be suggesting a very narrow idea of a "life of faith".  There are plenty of people that would label themselves as believers, theist, or people of faith that have no problem with the idea that we can use logic and our brains and senses to understand the natural world and universe.

 

(And such people pre-dated modern science).

 

What you are saying does and has happened, but that does not capture everybody and paints an incomplete picture.

Check out the comments that follow Saint Moore's tweet.

Oh and saying that people used their minds to understand the world around them before science was probably supposed to be a shock, but tends to be that those people were often killed by the likes of Beth Moore BECAUSE they made Jesus smaller.

[LD0506]

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Well I met God yesterday morning (at Starbucks of all places). I have to say, I was a little disappointed. A whole lot of “you gotta show up every day, give it 110%, take it one day at a time and keep swinging for the fences.” I wasn’t expecting so many cliches.

 

We’re going to meet up again this afternoon at the bike trail. Hopefully he has something more insightful for me this time. I’ll keep you updated.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I don’t think that was God. Just a hobo.

 

Hey question, if you went to meet someone at a bike trail and woke up with your pants unbuttoned and a half empty bottle of cranberry juice, would you tell anyone?

 

 

edit: Followup question for anybody who said no, would you like to meet up at the bike trail?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[757SeanTaylor21]

For someone who needs evidence that there is a God, and says theres only the Bible that tells us about Him is not truly looking. Miracles were done not for those who believe, but those who didnt/dont because if we face it....most are " if i dont see it i dont believe it." Theres miracles all over that you may not know, hear about or see. Theres prophets that have prophesied and came to pass thar you may not know, hear, or see. The Word says ask and you shall be given, knock and you shall find. If you seek Him. You will find. 

 

Theres also a difference in between God's plan vs mans will. Yet when we see death, its referred to Gods plan and tends to refute our own will in the process. God, all knowing, omnipresent, knows everything about us and every choice we make has its own repercussion. God KNOWS these repercussions, but He allows us TO choose. Everything is a choice. Deciding not to choose is a choice. There is a difference between what God wants versus what He allows. If somebody was to eat fast food every single day three times and suffer a heart attack and dies....is that what God wanted? Absolutely not...that was the repercussion of his or her choice. WE KNOW that its bad. The Bible also mentions that we were born into sin amd shaped by iniquity. So when you see kids with cancer...think about this world we live in. And what we are surrounded by. Yes, the intention and the beginning was good in the sight of the Lord...but you see wherr its at by mans actions. Look at global warming...mans actions. Etc. Etc. 

[The Sisko]

On 4/18/2019 at 2:17 PM, PeterMP said:

 

There's a difference between allowing things to happen and things being part of a plan.  I allow my kids to do things that if I were trying to rigorously plan their lives I would not allow them to do.

 

I'm allowing them to make choices that I sometimes think are poor choices.  

 

There's a difference between God let's bad things happen (partly because we have free will) and that God has a plan and all ending points are what they are because that  is what God wants.

 

My questions are meant to make that distinction.

 

God allowed for the dropping of the atomic bombs (and even more focusing on the 2nd one) because we have free will and those were the decisions the people made. 

 

Or 

 

God has a plan that required the city of Nagasaki to be destroyed and over 40K people wiped out essentially instantaneously (with even more dying later more slowly) in our around August 1945.

 

I've got no problem with the first.  Your posts suggest the 2nd.  I've got big problems with that.

The free will argument breaks down at a certain point. So, would you allow your kid to be killed in a tornado or contract a disease and die? Those have nothing to do with free will, and yet they happen to the innocent all the time. Moreover, that’s just not very loving in my book. I’d add the condoning of slavery and the misogynistic stuff about women to that as well.

 

As for your point about the difference between free will vs. a pre-planned existence, I think your version doesn’t square with an omniscient god. If he’s omniscient, then he’d have to know before he created you that you’re going to do X bad things. Therefore, the choice was his at the point that he created you.

Interestingly, my views have changed a little bit since I first posted. I’m now feeling the 5% Nation these days. So, yeah, there is a God after all - me.

Like most of you that have ever heard of the 5%, I initially laughed off their dogma as foolishness. “So, you think the black man is God and all white people are the devil? GTFOH!🙄” I laughed that stuff off right up until recently when I started searching for the meaning of some old school rap lyrics and ran across the explanation. It turns out much of their stuff is allegorical. So they don’t believe all white people are literally the devil. This construct actually refers to the powerful who it just so happens at this point are mostly white.

 

Where I diasagree with them is their homophobic beliefs and their condescending ideas about women. However, they are spot on about personal empowerment, education and the ruling class.

Edited May 7, 2019 by The Sisko

[LD0506]

[PeterMP]

12 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

The free will argument breaks down at a certain point. So, would you allow your kid to be killed in a tornado or contract a disease and die? Those have nothing to do with free will, and yet they happen to the innocent all the time. Moreover, that’s just not very loving in my book. I’d add the condoning of slavery and the misogynistic stuff about women to that as well.

 

As for your point about the difference between free will vs. a pre-planned existence, I think your version doesn’t square with an omniscient god. If he’s omniscient, then he’d have to know before he created you that you’re going to do X bad things. Therefore, the choice was his at the point that he created you.

Interestingly, my views have changed a little bit since I first posted. I’m now feeling the 5% Nation these days. So, yeah, there is a God after all - me.

Like most of you that have ever heard of the 5%, I initially laughed off their dogma as foolishness. “So, you think the black man is God and all white people are the devil? GTFOH!🙄” I laughed that stuff off right up until recently when I started searching for the meaning of some old school rap lyrics and ran across the explanation. It turns out much of their stuff is allegorical. So they don’t believe all white people are literally the devil. This construct actually refers to the powerful who it just so happens at this point are mostly white.

 

Where I diasagree with them is their homophobic beliefs and their condescending ideas about women. However, they are spot on about personal empowerment, education and the ruling class.

 

I've stated before, the fundamental problem between a theist and non-theist when talking about death is that the non-theist inherently sees death as a bad thing.  You are essentially arguing that something bad (dying) has happened to somebody innocent.

 

I'd tell you that you've started with two premises and I disagree with both of them.

 

In terms of God being omniscient, there are different philosophical constructs and possibilities that are possible.  One of the biggest issues is that we've come to see omniscience as total omniscience (which I understand).  Which isn't actually very well supported in the Bible (some of the Psalms go in that direction), but for the most part.  Much of the omniscience of God based on the Bible is more of a most knowledgeable and powerful person.  Nobody can tell him anything that he doesn't know, and he can decide the out come if he wants.  

[The Sisko]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

I've stated before, the fundamental problem between a theist and non-theist when talking about death is that the non-theist inherently sees death as a bad thing.  You are essentially arguing that something bad (dying) has happened to somebody innocent.

 

I'd tell you that you've started with two premises and I disagree with both of them.

 

In terms of God being omniscient, there are different philosophical constructs and possibilities that are possible.  One of the biggest issues is that we've come to see omniscience as total omniscience (which I understand).  Which isn't actually very well supported in the Bible (some of the Psalms go in that direction), but for the most part.  Much of the omniscience of God based on the Bible is more of a most knowledgeable and powerful person.  Nobody can tell him anything that he doesn't know, and he can decide the out come if he wants.  

I can’t speak for all of us, but I’d disagree with the idea that non-believers see death as a bad thing. It’s just a fact of life. I think most of us would say unexpected, early, tragic death is what’s bad and allowing these things to happen is incongruent with the concept of a loving god. Moreover, he allows these things to happen even after telling you to beg for them not to happen, while he knows full well he has no intention of helping you.

 

I understand that the idea of god’s omniscience and maybe omnipotence is open to interpretation. However, I’d argue that if a god created the universe, that would by definition make him outside the limitations of space and time since he’d have to exist before the universe began in order to create it. Therefore, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect him to be able to affect things as I’ve described. If he can’t, and thus requires a scholarly debate about the limits of his powers, is he really a god after all?

[PeterMP]

37 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

I can’t speak for all of us, but I’d disagree with the idea that non-believers see death as a bad thing. It’s just a fact of life. I think most of us would say unexpected, early, tragic death is what’s bad and allowing these things to happen is incongruent with the concept of a loving god. Moreover, he allows these things to happen even after telling you to beg for them not to happen, while he knows full well he has no intention of helping you.

 

I understand that the idea of god’s omniscience and maybe omnipotence is open to interpretation. However, I’d argue that if a god created the universe, that would by definition make him outside the limitations of space and time since he’d have to exist before the universe began in order to create it. Therefore, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect him to be able to affect things as I’ve described. If he can’t, and thus requires a scholarly debate about the limits of his powers, is he really a god after all?

 

1.  Well, I was talking about all death of any kind.   You see those deaths as bad.  A theist would not.  You see them as incongruent with the concept of a loving God because you see them as bad.  Even if you see them as a natural part of life, then the idea of them being bad goes away, and they aren't incongruent with the idea of a loving God.

 

Why is an early and unexpected death worse than the death of an older person that isn't unexpected?  Is it not a fact of life that some people will die early and unexpectedly?

 

2.  I'm not sure why you say he tells you to beg for them to not to happen, and I don't know why you say he knows full well he has no intention of helping you.  

 

3.  This point is different than your last point.  God can have the ability to affect things and we can still have free will.  That God doesn't affect things that he could is what gives us free will.

 

4.  That would depend on how you want to define a god.  Certainly, in most polythestic relgions the gods have had limits on their power.  (Not, that I'm saying that God does, but to simply say that if he does, he's not really a god certainly seems go against the historical use of the term god.  Most gods in most belief systems in history have had limits to their powers and people have used the term god to describe them.  If God can only create one universe at a time, is he not a god?  That would still seem to give him power than the gods of mythology, which people called gods.)

Edited May 7, 2019 by PeterMP

[The Sisko]

OK Pete, I’m going to respond one more time about this but I think we’re getting a bit off the topic of the thread.

 

1. Again, we don’t see all deaths as bad. Death after a well lived, longish life is OK. Sad, but normal. Early death before someone has had a chance to live and enjoy life or violent unnecessary death is tragic. I’m sure believers feel the same way, whether some of you will admit it or not. If you didn’t, you’d all kill yourselves right away in a bid to get to heaven ASAP. This is probably the real reason suicide is verboten in most religions.

 

2. 

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18 

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." –Philippians 4:6

And yet, god knows he’s going to not answer many, maybe most of these prayers. That’s sadistic, even bullying behavior in my book.

 

3. So god gives us free will, except when he doesn’t? Why doesn’t he choose to step in to stop a mass shooting for example, when I’m told he helps folks to catch touchdown passes and other such more important things?

 

4. This may be so. However, the limited omnipotence god isn’t the one that’s sold to people in the pews on Sunday and most definitely not when proselytizing.

[Renegade7]

On 5/7/2019 at 2:14 PM, LD0506 said:

You aren't adding anything to the conversation with this, you are instigating, not cool.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

OK Pete, I’m going to respond one more time about this but I think we’re getting a bit off the topic of the thread.

 

1. Again, we don’t see all deaths as bad. Death after a well lived, longish life is OK. Sad, but normal. Early death before someone has had a chance to live and enjoy life or violent unnecessary death is tragic. I’m sure believers feel the same way, whether some of you will admit it or not. If you didn’t, you’d all kill yourselves right away in a bid to get to heaven ASAP. This is probably the real reason suicide is verboten in most religions.

 

2. 

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18 

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." –Philippians 4:6

And yet, god knows he’s going to not answer many, maybe most of these prayers. That’s sadistic, even bullying behavior in my book.

 

3. So god gives us free will, except when he doesn’t? Why doesn’t he choose to step in to stop a mass shooting for example, when I’m told he helps folks to catch touchdown passes and other such more important things?

 

4. This may be so. However, the limited omnipotence god isn’t the one that’s sold to people in the pews on Sunday and most definitely not when proselytizing.

 

1.  I'm still not sure why one is worse than the other.  In terms of suicide, it seems you know the answer so I'm not sure why you asked.

 

2.  I wouldn't call those phrases telling people to beg, and I certainly wouldn't call them sadistic.  I gave finals recently.  Before the final, I tell all my students to ask if they have any questions at all.  Now, realistically, I end up not being able to answer a lot of the questions they ask, but I wouldn't consider the fact that i told them to ask questions if they have any sadistic or bullying even though I know that I'm going to get lots of questions that I'm going to have to say, I'm sorry, but I can't answer that.

 

3.  Because stopping somebody from doing something is interfering with their free will.  The shooter has free will.

 

Obviously, I can't defend everybody's beliefs.  I disagree with a lot of mainstream Christian ideas (I'm anti-prosperity Gospel).  Have somebody post about how God helped them make a touchdown catch, and I'll have no problem explaining to them why I think they are wrong.

 

4.  Obviously, there have to be some limits to God's power.  And as such we can have a scholarly debate to as to what those limits are.

 

Can God make a rock so large that he can't move?  Either there is a limit on his ability to move things or his ability to create things.

 

Can God make a being more powerful than him?  Either there is a limit on his ability to create things or a limit on his powers.

Can he make creatures that have free will, but always know what they are going to do?  Either there is a limit on his ability to create things or a limit on his ability to know things.

 

These questions aren't novel or new, have been debated by Christians for centuries, and I don't see how acknowledging them disagrees with what I hear at Church on Sundays.  To make the same point as above, I'm not going to defend everything that is said in a "Christian" Church every Sunday (I disagree with 95% of what Joel Osteen says), but by and large, I think intellectually most Christians recognize there must be some limits to God's power.

Edited May 11, 2019 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

If you ask someone if they'd kill their only child if God told them to, are you wrong for asking them that and are they wrong for saying yes? I feel like I was wrong for askin that but absolutely hated their answer.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Renegade7

[TheGreatBuzz]

38 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

If you ask someone if they'd kill their only child if God told them to, are you wrong for asking them that and are they wrong for saying yes? I feel like I was wrong for askin that but absolutely hated their answer.

 

I dunno but I feel like there is a good (funny) backstory to this exchange that I'd like to hear.

[AsburySkinsFan]

On 5/7/2019 at 3:00 PM, PeterMP said:

 

1.  Well, I was talking about all death of any kind.   You see those deaths as bad.  A theist would not. 

A Christian theist should, it is after all the consequence of sin and wholly preventable according to the faith.

 

As I sit here now post-faith I don't place an emotional value on death any more than I do a stop sign. It's a thing nothing more. It is scripture in the Bible that considers death bad or a consequence of evil. That you suggest theists don't view death as bad seems to suggest that you've accepted the punishment as normal. It also suggests that you're more Augustinian/Dante version of the afterlife where death is a neutral gateway to the reward/punishment. Which I would argue isn't what your Bible actually teaches.

On 5/1/2019 at 4:50 PM, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

For someone who needs evidence that there is a God, and says theres only the Bible that tells us about Him is not truly looking. Miracles were done not for those who believe, but those who didnt/dont because if we face it....most are " if i dont see it i dont believe it." Theres miracles all over that you may not know, hear about or see. Theres prophets that have prophesied and came to pass thar you may not know, hear, or see. The Word says ask and you shall be given, knock and you shall find. If you seek Him. You will find. 

Fine, if there are so many miracles name some verifiable miracles.

Edited July 29, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan

[CousinsCowgirl84]

7 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

As I sit here now post-faith I don't place an emotional value on death any more than I do a stop sign. 

 

Huh... ok. I’m pretty sure Ted Bundy felt the same way about dead. Maybe a little less than a stop sign in his case though.  

 

I think he idea that a theist views death as “good” and that an atheist views death as “bad” is a fallacy, but best stick the the script here.

 

7 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Fine, if there are so many miracles name some verifiable miracles.

 

Landing on on the moon was a miracle!

[AsburySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

Huh... ok. I’m pretty sure Ted Bundy felt the same way about dead. Maybe a little less than a stop sign in his case though.  

 

I think he idea that a theist views death as “good” and that an atheist views death as “bad” is a fallacy, but best stick the the script here.

 

 

Landing on on the moon was a miracle!

Oh so now I'm Ted Bundy. Gotcha. Why not engage your brain and ask a question before posting some bull**** strawman next time? Some who aren't failing in their basic logic centers would recognize that there is a difference in seeing death as neutral and seeing people as valueless objects as a sociopath, but I'm sure you just need your coffee before you can fully engage....(your past posting history notwithstanding).

 

And landing on the moon wasn't a miracle it was an act of science and engineering. The fact that you don't know how to do it does not make it a miracle. I bet my wife's gallbladder surgery was a miracle too...you know if you ignore the whole surgeon.

Edited July 29, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan

[PeterMP]

10 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

A Christian theist should, it is after all the consequence of sin and wholly preventable according to the faith.

 

As I sit here now post-faith I don't place an emotional value on death any more than I do a stop sign. It's a thing nothing more. It is scripture in the Bible that considers death bad or a consequence of evil. That you suggest theists don't view death as bad seems to suggest that you've accepted the punishment as normal. It also suggests that you're more Augustinian/Dante version of the afterlife where death is a neutral gateway to the reward/punishment. Which I would argue isn't what your Bible actually teaches.

 

Just because it was preventable doesn't make it bad or a punishment today.

 

I also don't consider it a punishment and yes, I prescribe to an Augustinian view.

 

(You also seem to be suggesting a very literal reading of Genesis, which I also don't support.  The fact that some animals seem to understand right and wrong suggest that the idea of eating from the tree of good and evil isn't a true story.)

[AsburySkinsFan]

11 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Just because it was preventable doesn't make it bad or a punishment today.

 

I also don't consider it a punishment and yes, I prescribe to an Augustinian view.

 

(You also seem to be suggesting a very literal reading of Genesis, which I also don't support.  The fact that some animals seem to understand right and wrong suggest that the idea of eating from the tree of good and evil isn't a true story.)

Except the whole New Testament part about the wages of sin and all. And Augustine was wrong, he wasn't in keeping with what the Bible actually teaches in this regard, nor was he in line with anything that would resemble a Hebraic understanding of post death because Augustine either ignores or outright redefines the meaning of resurrection. Just sayin'

Edited July 29, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan

[PeterMP]

10 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Except the whole New Testament part about the wages of sin and all. And Augustine was wrong, he wasn't in keeping with what the Bible actually teaches in this regard, nor was he in line with anything that would resemble a Hebraic understanding of post death. Just sayin'

 

1.  I'm not sure of your point about the wages of sin or how that indicates I'm wrong.  (the next part of the wages of sin deals with the gift from God, defining a process that results in an incredible gift as bad seems very short sighted to me).

 

2.  I don't think he was.

 

3.  I'm not at all sure the Hebrews understood post-death properly.

Edited July 29, 2019 by PeterMP

[AsburySkinsFan]

8 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

1.  I'm not sure of your point about the wages of sin or how that indicates I'm wrong.  (the next part of the wages of sin deals with the gift from God, defining a process that results in an incredible gift as bad seems very short sighted to me).

 

2.  I don't think he was.

 

3.  I'm not at all sure the Hebrews understood post-death properly.

So Jesus telling you that death is the wage you receive from sin you read that then to mean death is neutral. Even though according to the authors death was only known to humanity because of sin. All that to you makes death a neutral event? 

Lemmie tell ya, that's HIGHLY counter intuitive.

 

2. It's fine, you're both wrong.

 

3. So the actual authors didn't know what they were talking about? It couldn't possibly be that you feel this way because it's you who misunderstands them? Nah, after 4,000 years you finally got it worked out.