What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[NoCalMike]

I don't think anyone is making the argument that a god-less society automatically equals a non-suffering society.  I believe the atheist would argue it is the flaw of mankind, which religious folks would argue too, however they would offer different reasons as to why. 

 

Christianity seems to believe mankind ultimately did this to themselves early on which set the ball rolling, where as atheists likely would argue that this is just how mankind has always been from the start. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by NoCalMike

[Renegade7]

50 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I don't think anyone is making the argument that a god-less society automatically equals a non-suffering society.  I believe the atheist would argue it is the flaw of mankind, which religious folks would argue too, however they would offer different reasons as to why. 

 

Fair, though there have been plenty of posts in here hoping for organized religion to cease so we can take many of the ills it brings on society out the picture of an already messed up world. To me it feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and may do more harm then good.

 

  We've seen what some atheistic societies are capable of, we know there are secular individuals that are just as damaging to our world as some religious folks.  Theres nothing wrong with having a book to help guide civilized behavior and morality, to help us get through our suffering, and something to look forward to when we are gone.  We are unfortunately seeing the results of that book being weaponized throughout history, and I get the anger towards that, I really do.

 

50 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Christianity seems to believe mankind ultimately did this to themselves early on which set the ball rolling, where as atheists likely would argue that this is just how mankind has always been from the start. 

 

 

Yea, a lot of different philosophical takes on human nature out there, the Bible is another source on that.  My optimism makes it hard to deal with this idea that our hearts are inherently wicked, or as some philosophers say we are competitive and animalistic by nature to our core. 

 

https://iai.tv/articles/hobbes-vs-rousseau-are-we-inherently-evil-or-good-auid-1221

 

Religion is supposed to help us reconcile with the reality that the only thing that matches what we are capable of is what we are capable, that even the best of us can have the worst thoughts at times.  I do believe a lot of people believe in God, but work on Sundays, or have gay friends, and can't stand how the catholic church keeps getting away with raping kids. All fair and reasonable. 

 

 @Epochalypse posted an article about how white evangelicals need check themselves before they wreck themselves,, but it may need to jus happen so organized religion can be backed into a corner to start soul searching itself for its own survival. At some point it will need space to do that without our secular society trying to kick it while its down because of its history. Revenge is not justice. 

[dfitzo53]

@ThomasRoane In your view, what happens to the people who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus in any way and cannot have made a decision to accept him as a savior?

[TheGreatBuzz]

I know I was the one that got this thread rolling again and I don't want people to think I just did a drive by and dipped out.  I'm really enjoying this conversation, its just that you all have gotten beyond my knowledge level.  Keep it up!

[Epochalypse]

@ThomasRoane Happy to discuss as long as we can keep this friendly and on topic.  I guess I should also caveat that these are all my own views and do not represent the views of anyone except me, and I also want to make clear I offer these with a clear understanding I don't think that I am right or wrong, even though my wording may and will at times suggest otherwise; I am just as flawed and trying to wrap my head around this life as everyone else likely is.  These thoughts help me rationalize much of what is likely beyond our ability to rationalize and I welcome different views presented appropriately.  I will try my best to do so as well.

 

With that out of the way, to the point about the Bible not being a science book, I would still posit that the information should be accurate if it truly is the word of God.  As the Bible itself states, God cannot lie.  And that would in my view include deceiving us, either through misinformation or disinformation, although it does seem to allow omission.  I am making the assumption that the omission part is to allow those choices to be available to mankind.  To your point about the Ark and the compartmentalization of what creatures may or may not have been on it, I can't tell if you are making the argument that Noah's Ark held only those creatures that were known to the region or that the Flood (which I do believe occurred mind you) was a localized event.  I can't see how either of these are available options is you believe every word in the Bible is true.  Noah either had every creature or he didn't.  Genesis 7:21-23 is rather clear on that description.  But I also hold the belief that God's creation wasn't just right in the beginning and He slapped his hands together and walked away, leaving only what survived on the Ark to repopulate everything, which would include the assumption that Noah and his family repopulated the entirety of mankind again.  God could have been actively creating people in other places, and I also believe maritime creatures could evolve to become land dwelling creatures, but that apparently is one of those things that just couldn't happen for some Christians.

 

To your point in your next post, I don't know that I would say with certainty that God does not intend for us to suffer.  God uses suffering, and the Bible actually holds a clear example that He even allows suffering in the form of Job.  If you believe that God and Satan were sitting there and God went ahead and allowed Satan to wreak havoc on Job and his family, all to prove a point to Satan, I'm going to disagree that represents a God that does not intend us to suffer.  But this goes back to what I said earlier, that this world is necessarily filled with such things in order to teach us that holding on to this world, becoming so attached to this world should not be the goal.  It is necessarily flawed and broken so that the contrast of heaven is clear.  I equate it to a parent that allows their child to learn a hard lesson; it's painful to allow it to happen, but if you consistently save them from their mistakes, make them believe they can never do wrong, make them believe they are always right and always get what they want, you get a Donald Trump.  And I refuse to have my children grow up to be a Trump.

 

That's probably long enough for now.

[FuriousD]

12 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Bible says after he kicks us out the Garden of Eden that we are going to go through it, and that he has no plans to end all suffering until the end times.  In the meantime, its our responsibility as humans to look out for each other and this planet He's given us dominion over.

Then why the eons of intercessory prayer?

[Renegade7]

20 minutes ago, FuriousD said:

Then why the eons of intercessory prayer?

 

I'd love to answer your question, but I don't understand your point you're asking me to address. Can you please elaborate?

[CousinsCowgirl84]

31 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'd love to answer your question, but I don't understand your point you're asking me to address. Can you please elaborate?

He is saying if god isn’t willing to end suffering today why pray to him (for someone). 
 

I am an atheist, but I found this response to a similar question to be valid:

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by CousinsCowgirl84

[FuriousD]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'd love to answer your question, but I don't understand your point you're asking me to address. Can you please elaborate?

Certainly..

 

You say the Bible says he has no plans to end all suffering until the end times, then why and Christians always dropping to their knees to ask Him for help?  Not going out on much of a limb here if I were to say 99% of your brethren don't agree with your interpretation.  I'm sure there are drive-by prayers along the lines of "Dear God, you rock! Thanks for everything. Ciao."  But you know and I know the vast majority of believers on their knees are asking God to intercede on their behalf and save them, their family or friend from something ugly, threatening or frightening.

 

Here's an example from perhaps the most famous prayer in the world, the Lords Prayer..  "Give us this day our daily bread"  Not... "Dear Lord, if today you could see your way to point me in the direction of the nearest loaf, I'll do the leg work".  No, it's GIVE US!

 

[ThomasRoane]

15 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

I don't think anyone is making the argument that a god-less society automatically equals a non-suffering society.  I believe the atheist would argue it is the flaw of mankind, which religious folks would argue too, however they would offer different reasons as to why. 

 

 

 

History certainly bears that out.  No matter how a manmade system (apart from God) begins it always goes to crap in the end.  Even socialism.  Funny how the masses always end up living in poverty yet the people in charge continue to live in luxury.  Even though socialists often end up in power by railing at the privileged elite.  Always, always, always ends up as rules for thee but not for me.  Especially true for any government system that has no consideration for judgment in the afterlife.  Live for today and to hell with everyone else!  That's not to say that all atheists are like that.  To be sure there are some who are very caring and considerate; who do a lot for the less fortunate.  There are also some Christians who walk around like they've been baptized in vinegar.  Angry at anyone and everyone who dares to think differently than they do; many times they take out most of their anger on fellow Christians!

 

As far as the flaw in mankind, I'm not one who believes in a sin nature (Original Sin).  To say that we're born with a sinful nature (handed down from Adam) is to say that every stillborn baby or every baby murdered in their mother's womb is going to hell.  Does that sound like something Christ — who loved children and encouraged them to come to Him — would condone?  I think Augustin (Augustine of Hippo) was the one who came up with the sin-nature doctrine in the 4th century.  I believe he meant well but got it wrong.  He was human after all.

 

I believe there is a misunderstanding of Paul's writings in Romans 5:12 and Ephesians 2:1-3.

  

Quote

 

Romans 5 

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die. 8 But God proves his own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 How much more then, since we have now been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation.

Death through Adam and Life through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all people, because all sinned.

 

Ephesians 2 

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also.

 

 

The curse that was handed down was not sin but rather death.  We don't sin because Adam made the wrong choice in Eden.  We sin because disobedience is easier than obedience.  You don't have to teach your two year old to be selfish.  They'll figure that on their own!  You have to teach them to share.  Because that's not easy.  Given time, everyone at sometime or another will sin.  The only One who lived a perfect life without Sin was Jesus Christ Himself.  That's why His death was the only acceptable substitution for those who trust in Him for salvation.  (By the way, if all receive a sin nature, then that would included Jesus Christ Himself from Mary and that would have disqualified Him as our Savior)  

 

Once we reach an age where we can know right from wrong, then we are accountable for our sins.  For children, I believe that's different for each one.  I have five children and none of them were the same.  They all grow at their own pace.  Then there are those who have mental handicaps.  Once we reach the age to know what is right and what is wrong, then we have a decision to make.  Either we pay for our sins (children under wrath) or we place our faith in the Savior - Jesus Christ who died for us.    

 

The human flaw comes from modeling.  We have so few examples of how we should live.  So many examples of how we should not live!  As a Christian, I would confidently say that the only example we should follow is Christ Himself.  I doubt that any of the Apostles would disagree.  He is the ruler by which we measure if our lives are straight.  Everyone else is no more than a crooked stick.  Myself included!  

 

Absence from the presence of God will make us more susceptible to sin. Not a sin nature. Hence the importance of church, the scriptures, and prayer. ~Dr. Michael Heiser

[ThomasRoane]

9 hours ago, dfitzo53 said:

@ThomasRoane In your view, what happens to the people who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus in any way and cannot have made a decision to accept him as a savior?

 

Did you see the quote from CS Lewis about it?  Honestly, we aren't told what happens with them (whether good or bad).  I know that I serve a just and good God who is not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)  I do believe that after the Lord returns (soon probably) that there will be a period where He is reigning and ruling on a renewed earth.  You may have heard of it called as the Millennium.  Perhaps those people will be resurrected and given an opportunity to choose to accept His work on the cross and receive the gift of eternal life?  

 

There are a lot of things that God did not deem was necessary for us to know — yet.  He has however, made sure that we have all the essential information necessary for salvation.  Namely, the Gospel.  We also have story after story in the Bible of countless people who really blew it and yet God gave them an opportunity to repent and be saved (King David for one).  Also, many others who were given many opportunities to repent and yet still turned away; to their own destruction. (King Saul)  

 

I believe without a doubt that no one who ends up in Hell will have a good defense as to why they are there.  In the end, those who end up there wanted no part of a God who loved them enough to allow His Son to die for them.  He won't force them into heaven against their will.  

[Renegade7]

34 minutes ago, FuriousD said:

Certainly..

 

You say the Bible says he has no plans to end all suffering until the end times, then why and Christians always dropping to their knees to ask Him for help?  Not going out on much of a limb here if I were to say 99% of your brethren don't agree with your interpretation.  I'm sure there are drive-by prayers along the lines of "Dear God, you rock! Thanks for everything. Ciao."  But you know and I know the vast majority of believers on their knees are asking God to intercede on their behalf and save them, their family or friend from something ugly, threatening or frightening.

 

Why are you suggesting that by not addressing all suffering that he won't address any?  Thats not what the Bible says, multiple examples of saying we should pray to God in trying times and he will intervene. 

 

He doesn't everytime we ask him, too, sometime i get it, sometimes I dont get it.  Faith is not getting fed up because he won't fix everything, thats impatience and unrealistic.  The Bible doesn't say to kick up our feet and ask him to do everything for us, we still need to put in our own work.

 

Typically when I pray, im asking for help and strength to get through something.  Theres the saying of "Jesus take the Wheel", and I've had those moments in life where I jus need something taken off my plate completely.

 

 

 

James 2:17

Quote

King James Bible
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

New King James Version
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, FuriousD said:

Here's an example from perhaps the most famous prayer in the world, the Lords Prayer..  "Give us this day our daily bread"  Not... "Dear Lord, if today you could see your way to point me in the direction of the nearest loaf, I'll do the leg work".  No, it's GIVE US!

 

 

 

Quote

Matthew 6:9-13
King James Version
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

 

That verse in context of the actual prayer shows we have work to do as well.

 

[Jabbyrwock]

2 hours ago, FuriousD said:

 "Dear Lord, if today you could see your way to point me in the direction of the nearest loaf, I'll do the leg work".

 

You'll never take me alive!!!!!

[ThomasRoane]

7 hours ago, Epochalypse said:

@ThomasRoane Happy to discuss as long as we can keep this friendly and on topic.  I guess I should also caveat that these are all my own views and do not represent the views of anyone except me, and I also want to make clear I offer these with a clear understanding I don't think that I am right or wrong, even though my wording may and will at times suggest otherwise; I am just as flawed and trying to wrap my head around this life as everyone else likely is.  These thoughts help me rationalize much of what is likely beyond our ability to rationalize and I welcome different views presented appropriately.  I will try my best to do so as well.

 

Couldn't have said it better.  Anybody who says they've got the Bible completely figured out is not to be trusted.  The Bible is a timeless, literary masterpiece that requires hours of research, study, and introspection to begin to understand it.  I've got a long way to go and am willing to listen to other viewpoints without judging.

 

7 hours ago, Epochalypse said:

 

With that out of the way, to the point about the Bible not being a science book, I would still posit that the information should be accurate if it truly is the word of God.  As the Bible itself states, God cannot lie.  And that would in my view include deceiving us, either through misinformation or disinformation, although it does seem to allow omission.  I am making the assumption that the omission part is to allow those choices to be available to mankind. 

 

Let's not forget that the Bible didn't float down from heaven to us.  More than likely, nothing was written down until after Moses led Israel out of Egypt.  There was a middle eastern literary culture in place already.  Story telling has been with mankind forever.  That is how we best remember details.  I'll bet you remember more good books (stories) that you read from school than you remember facts from government class.  Why shouldn't God meet the people where they were at?  Instead of imposing modern or supernatural writing standards upon them why not simply use the same writing mechanisms and techniques they were familiar with?  After all, wasn't the point of creating Israel as a nation to show other nations the value of serving the Most High God?  And wouldn't it make sense to make it easier to communicate with their neighbors?  

 

Go ahead and look at many of the ancient writings.  Egypt, Assyria, the Hittites, Babylonians, etc. all wrote in the same style.  Whenever they conquered they would frequently comment that they had conquered the whole world.  To them, what they could see was the whole world.  I could see your point if in the Genesis -Noahic account you have an interjection from God proclaiming "And I God certify that indeed every single animal species in the whole world was saved by the pairs placed in the Ark."  God doesn't.  He allows the writer some flexibility in how he tells the story as long as he gets the important parts correct.  

 

That is:  God created.  God decreated.  God recreated.  

 

God was less concerned with science and nature and more concerned with doctrinal teachings.  If we needed an encyclopedia or compendium for salvation that's what He would have given us.  Even today.  Look how far mankind has come in our knowledge of science, mathematics, technology, etc.  All that knowledge has done is made us more clever devils.  We didn't need geography lessons.  We needed to know how to be saved from our sins and from death!  So when it comes to the doctrine of salvation He did not compromise but made sure that His Word - the Scriptures - told us what our problem was.  Sin.  What we needed.  A Savior.  Who that Savior is.  Jesus.  The thread of that truth starts in Genesis and finishes in the book of Revelation.  

 

Here's a really good video that may help to understand Biblical literature.  (The videos are very short)

 

 

Another video on the use of Metaphor in the Bible.

 

 

7 hours ago, Epochalypse said:

 

To your point about the Ark and the compartmentalization of what creatures may or may not have been on it, I can't tell if you are making the argument that Noah's Ark held only those creatures that were known to the region or that the Flood (which I do believe occurred mind you) was a localized event.  I can't see how either of these are available options is you believe every word in the Bible is true.  Noah either had every creature or he didn't.  Genesis 7:21-23 is rather clear on that description.  But I also hold the belief that God's creation wasn't just right in the beginning and He slapped his hands together and walked away, leaving only what survived on the Ark to repopulate everything, which would include the assumption that Noah and his family repopulated the entirety of mankind again.  God could have been actively creating people in other places, and I also believe maritime creatures could evolve to become land dwelling creatures, but that apparently is one of those things that just couldn't happen for some Christians.

 

Actually, I'm saying I don't care whether the Ark did indeed carry two of every kind of animal in the world or whether the flood event was localized or worldwide.  That's not the point of the story.  You have to refer to Genesis 6.  The human race had become polluted because of some rebel watchers.  The results were disastrous.  God wanted to rid His land of those who continued to live in rebellion.  For 120 years Noah preached repentance and yet only his family believed his message.  So, either all other humans or most were destroyed by the flood.  The point of the story remains intact regardless.

As for a regional flood, if there is any truth in myth (and I believe there is a strand of truth in most myths) then it would seem that some escaped the flood.  Such as the Apkallu in the epic of Gilgamesh. There is this curious strand of a commission on the part of Israel the nation to wipe out every trace of the Nephilim (Anakim, Amorites, etc.) throughout the Old Testament.  Then there is the fact that most scientist do not believe that it's possible for the entire earth to be covered in water.  The Bible does not say so definitely.  Not if you factor in the use of literature and exaggeration in ancient cultures.  Or as you say, omission in the case of the writer(s) of Genesis. Both science and the Bible can be right in this instance.  They don't have to be in conflict for the flood story to be a real event.   

 

Whole earth or world is used  as a figure of speech in the Bible. 

 

Genesis 11:1  The whole earth had the same language and vocabulary. (Even the people in South America?)

 

1 Kings 10:24 The whole world wanted an audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom that God had put in his heart.  (Really the whole world?  Even those in Europe?  Asia? Couldn't whole world just mean all the lands the writer and readers knew about? And I'd say the writer got his point across.)  

 

Jeremiah 50:23 How the hammer of the whole earth is cut down and smashed! What a horror Babylon has become among the nations! (When did Babylon conquer Norway?)

 

The terms whole earth or whole world were to make the hearer recognize that whatever the event it was a really big deal!  How many times have you heard someone say "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse!"  What goes thru your mind?  You're not thinking to yourself: man! that's gonna take him a long time.  Instead, you're thinking he must really be hungry! 

 

Jesus used exaggeration Himself to get His point across.

 

Matthew 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the splinter out of your eye,’ and look, there’s a beam of wood in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First take the beam of wood out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye. 

 

Think of how comical and outrageous that sounds.  Someone walking around with a 2x4 sticking from their eye!  That got the hearer's attention and helped them to understand what the Lord was trying to teach.  Hey, how about you clean up your act first before you go sticking your nose in somebody else's business! 

 

The Job story deserves its own thread man.  More to come on that later.

Edited September 30, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[TheGreatBuzz]

I hope the faithful here are able to take this without insult because there is truly none meant.  That said…….

 

I just don’t get how people can believe this.  It’s like watching Lord of the Rings and thinking it is a factually accurate telling of a time that existed.  I just don’t GET it. I’ve read every post here.  I grew up going to a religious school.  On one deployment, I vowed to read the entire bible (I didn’t, but I put a very respectable dent in it).  In some ways, it probably makes me a little jealous, having a belief in something good.  Maybe that’s part of the cynic in me.  I think Robert Langdon said it best, “faith is a gift I have yet to receive.”  But believing something that, to me, is so obviously fictional is…..well, I just don’t GET it.  

 

I remember having a discussion with a priest one time (I think it was at my dads funeral).  He asked “what if you are wrong?”  I said “well, hopefully I’ll get some credit for sticking to my beliefs no matter how unpopular they are.  And I did so after real soul-searching, not just paying lip service to whatever I was told I should believe without real reflection.”  He replied something to the effect of “well, I can respect that” then walked off.  I don’t think he was expecting that from a teenager.

[86 Snyder]

4 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Did you see the quote from CS Lewis about it?  Honestly, we aren't told what happens with them (whether good or bad).  I know that I serve a just and good God who is not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)  I do believe that after the Lord returns (soon probably) that there will be a period where He is reigning and ruling on a renewed earth.  You may have heard of it called as the Millennium.  Perhaps those people will be resurrected and given an opportunity to choose to accept His work on the cross and receive the gift of eternal life?  

 

There are a lot of things that God did not deem was necessary for us to know — yet.  He has however, made sure that we have all the essential information necessary for salvation.  Namely, the Gospel.  We also have story after story in the Bible of countless people who really blew it and yet God gave them an opportunity to repent and be saved (King David for one).  Also, many others who were given many opportunities to repent and yet still turned away; to their own destruction. (King Saul)  

 

I believe without a doubt that no one who ends up in Hell will have a good defense as to why they are there.  In the end, those who end up there wanted no part of a God who loved them enough to allow His Son to die for them.  He won't force them into heaven against their will.  

 

So he'll just burn them for all eternity instead?  I guess thats consistent with flooding the entire earth and drowning everyone except like 8 guys.

[86 Snyder]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I hope the faithful here are able to take this without insult because there is truly none meant.  That said…….

 

I just don’t get how people can believe this.  It’s like watching Lord of the Rings and thinking it is a factually accurate telling of a time that existed.  I just don’t GET it. I’ve read every post here.  I grew up going to a religious school.  On one deployment, I vowed to read the entire bible (I didn’t, but I put a very respectable dent in it).  In some ways, it probably makes me a little jealous, having a belief in something good.  Maybe that’s part of the cynic in me.  I think Robert Langdon said it best, “faith is a gift I have yet to receive.”  But believing something that, to me, is so obviously fictional is…..well, I just don’t GET it.  

 

I remember having a discussion with a priest one time (I think it was at my dads funeral).  He asked “what if you are wrong?”  I said “well, hopefully I’ll get some credit for sticking to my beliefs no matter how unpopular they are.  And I did so after real soul-searching, not just paying lip service to whatever I was told I should believe without real reflection.”  He replied something to the effect of “well, I can respect that” then walked off.  I don’t think he was expecting that from a teenager.

 

I was raised in an ultra Christian home.  Read the bible cover to cover many times. Read Mere Christianty, which has been mentioned here several times, a couple times too.  Absorbed every single talking point evangelicals offer over and over and over again.  And yet, all along it resonated with me as BS.  I didnt ask to feel that way, thats just my honest evaluation.  I tried...I really did.  But the longer you live and more you learn it just keeps breaking down more and more.  Whats a person such as me supposed to do, fake it?  For life?

 

George Carlin sums it all up pretty well for me.

Edited October 1, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[Renegade7]

Kinda hard for believers and non-believers to meet halfway on respecting each other's beliefs when comparing the Bible to LOTR is on the table.

 

I'm doing best I can not to take some of these posts to heart, I really am.  Its the Internet, people are going to say whats on their minds with no filter, im used to it.  

 

This isnt a thread about proving God is real, so I don't have to respond to every post that calls him BS like I'm on some crusade to save religion, because I'm not. If that's how you really feel, so be it.

[ThomasRoane]

12 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

So he'll just burn them for all eternity instead?  I guess thats consistent with flooding the entire earth and drowning everyone except like 8 guys.

 

If you want my amateur theological opinion by what is meant by hell then I'll do my best.  First, the Bible has to use allegory and metaphor to explain the supernatural to beings who live in the natural, material world.  So there are several descriptions given to guide us on what hell is like in comparison to our limited, material senses.

 

1.  Unquenchable fire.  

 

Matthew 3  11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I. I am not worthy to remove his sandals. He himself [John is speaking of Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn. But the chaff he will burn with fire that never goes out.”

 

Isaiah 66 24 “As they leave, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me; for their worm will never die, their fire will never go out, and they will be a horror to all humanity.”

 

Matthew 521 “You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Whoever insults his brother or sister, will be subject to the court. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to hellfire (Greek here is Gehenna). 

 

 The Greek word used here [for hellfire] is geenna, often transliterated into English as “Gehenna.” The underlying reference is to the Hebrew  name “Valley of Hinnom,” which was a place near Jerusalem linked with idolatrous sacrifices in the ot (e.g., 2 Chr 28:3). Over time, Gehenna came to represent a place of God’s wrath, hence the affiliation with fire. Compare note on 1 Pet 3:19 ~Logos.com

 

Jesus compared Hell to Gehenna.  Which was a trash pit near Jerusalem where dead bodies, waste, trash, etc. was burned.  It was a formerly a place of disgrace that was even used by Jewish kings to sacrifice children to the god Molech.  As predicted by the prophet Jeremiah, the place was destroyed by the good Southern Kingdom King Josiah.  Who scattered the ashes of baal worshipping priests upon the site thus rendering it unfit; even for the cult of baal.  Ever since that time it was a place of disrepute. Since people were always burning garbage there, the smoke and stench from that place was always present.  It smelled like death; like hell itself.

 

Now, fire is most likely not a reference to flame as we know it.  How can something burn eternally?  Wouldn't it eventually be consumed - law of entropy?  That is not the picture we get.  The fire never goes out.  So, most people agree that what is going on here is really something more like regret, remorse, agonizing sorrow, etc.  Imagine dying and realizing you could have repented and gone to Paradise.  But you lost your chance and now your fate has been sealed.  It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment.  (Hebrews 9:27)   

 

The Lord gives us the greatest picture of what Hell is like in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.  The rich man describes burning in agony.  He wasn't on fire.  So it was most likely the regret he felt from making the wrong choice.  He was barely in hell when he became an evangelist!  Begging Abraham to send the poor man Lazarus to warn his brothers so they would not end up like himself.  

 

2.  Outer darkness.

 

Imagine living an eternity in utter darkness.  Jesus also uses that to help us to understand hell.  (God alone is the source of light; without His presence darkness is all that is left) No one to talk to.  Nothing to do but relive your past over and over and over with heartrending grief. 

 

2 Peter 2 17 These people are springs without water, mists driven by a storm. The gloom of darkness has been reserved for them.

 

Jude v 13 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever.

 

Matthew 22 13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him up hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Parable of the Wedding Banquet)

 

Apart from God, the source of all light, what is left but darkness? Note the Lord's description - gnashing of teeth.  Have you ever made a decision that was such a mistake that your jaw clenched at your stupidity?  I believe that's what's in play here.  The person sentenced eternally to be separated from all that is good, loving, pleasurable, safe, comforting — light.  All that is left for you is loneliness, regret, despair, hopelessness — darkness.

 

 

Now to answer what you really want to know.  How could a loving God sentence an immortal being (which is what we all are after all) to such a fate for eternity?  I answer by turning it back around.  How could a loving God force someone to be in His Presence for eternity without their consent?  Especially knowing that it would be dangerous for an unrepentant sinner to be in the presence of a Holy God.  Every evil act that sinner would have done would burn like hot coals within their souls because it had never been dealt with; specifically by the blood of Christ.  

 

Another way to put it is like this.  Does it sound right to you that a Loving God should force a woman who was murdered and raped to share eternity in heaven with the unrepentant, unforgiven person who did that to her?  Wouldn't heaven then become her hell?  

[ThomasRoane]

18 hours ago, FuriousD said:

Certainly..

 

You say the Bible says he has no plans to end all suffering until the end times, then why and Christians always dropping to their knees to ask Him for help?  Not going out on much of a limb here if I were to say 99% of your brethren don't agree with your interpretation.  I'm sure there are drive-by prayers along the lines of "Dear God, you rock! Thanks for everything. Ciao."  But you know and I know the vast majority of believers on their knees are asking God to intercede on their behalf and save them, their family or friend from something ugly, threatening or frightening.

 

Allow me to explain what prayer is.  Prayer is having a conversation with God.  If you love someone, wouldn't you want to spend time with that person?  Spending time often involves a two way conversation.  You listen and you speak.  The most effective prayers come from praying the scriptures.  God loves to be reminded of His promises.  Father, You have said in Your Word...  The Lord's Prayer is a good way of guiding us back to the faithfulness of God's promises.  

 

Prayer for the mature Christian, is not simply a list you present to the Lord.  Ok, I want 1 of these, 3 of those, and I'd like for such and such to happen.  Thanks!  Of course, it's not wrong to ask for your needs.  The Lord does say ask in my Name and it will be given to you.  He is not however some genie that you can conjure up to answer your every wish!  The mature Christian uses the Lord's example when asking for anything in prayer.  Nevertheless, not as I will but as You will.  

 

I have received many answers to prayer.  My first son was stillborn.  My faith didn't waver.  I kept my trust in Him knowing that I will see my son again in Heaven someday.  I asked the Lord for more children.  He gave me three wonderful daughters!  Then, He sent me a son after all.  Elijah's due date?  May 26th, the same day of the month my first son was born.  (Coincidence?  Sure - you believe that if you want to)  In May of 2018 I was diagnosed with stage IV mantel cell lymphoma.  I prayed to the Lord for healing; with the idea that His will would be done.  I figured, I either get to be with Him or spend more time with my five children.  (Jacob came along a little more than a year after Elijah.  Wife's tubes had been cut and burned but the Lord had other plans in mind)  The Lord healed me.  I'm cancer free still.  Yet my immune system was not as good as many others.  Despite having the vaccine (Pfizer - I'd recommend the Moderna now), I came down with COVID about a little more than a week ago.  Prayed about it.  Prayed for guidance.  My oncologist said there was one dose of monoclonal antibodies left at Sentara in Hampton Virginia and he was campaigning for me to get it.  My children and I prayed about and I got the infusion Tuesday.  (If I could sneak passed my daughter I'd be on the elliptical today lol!)  

 

Now, those are the prayers God answered.  I think a lot of Christians, if they're honest, are more thankful for the prayers God DID NOT answer!  I can't begin to list the prayers that I thought I really wanted only to realize later they weren't answered because He sees around the corners.  He knows what I need better than I do! 

 

Why me and why not so many other people who have just as much of a reason to have their prayers answered than I did?  All I can offer is that the Lord is not finished with me yet.  As of yet, not all of my children are saved.  (Three out of five are) I don't pressure them about it.  I try to live my life according to the Lord's guidance, I pray for them, and if they ask I give them a reason for my faith.  Ultimately, the Father must draw the sinner to the Son.  We are only to provide the loaves and fish.

 

18 hours ago, FuriousD said:

 

Here's an example from perhaps the most famous prayer in the world, the Lords Prayer..  "Give us this day our daily bread"  Not... "Dear Lord, if today you could see your way to point me in the direction of the nearest loaf, I'll do the leg work".  No, it's GIVE US!

 

 

If you're interested, I can give you a rundown on what the Lord's prayer is really all about.  The Lord never meant for us to just quote it as if saying the words over and over have some supernatural power.  The prayer was to be a model for us.  A template so to speak.  

 

Give us this day our daily bread.

 

In other words, keep your focus on today!  

 

Matthew 6 “Therefore I tell you: Don’t worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t life more than food and the body more than clothing?

 

This is a heart question.  Do you trust your Heavenly Father or not?  I pray like this:  Father, You have always provided for me in the past.  Even when it seemed like there was no hope.  You have provided for me today.  I may not have everything I want but I have what I need.  I trust You also with my future.  Thank You for what Your hand has provided for me and my family today.  I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus didn't have the feeding of Israel with mana in the wilderness in mind here.  Or ravens bringing bread to the prophet Elijah in the wilderness.  Maybe He even thought about the feeding of the thousands that He had planned.  Ultimately, He is leading us on a path to maturity.  There will be times when our prayers are not answered.  We we won't have enough to eat.  When there will be no cure for cancer.  What then?  Will we still trust Him to meet us in Paradise?  I know I will.  

 

 

[ThomasRoane]

16 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I hope the faithful here are able to take this without insult because there is truly none meant.  That said…….

 

I just don’t get how people can believe this.  It’s like watching Lord of the Rings and thinking it is a factually accurate telling of a time that existed.  I just don’t GET it. I’ve read every post here.  I grew up going to a religious school.  On one deployment, I vowed to read the entire bible (I didn’t, but I put a very respectable dent in it).  In some ways, it probably makes me a little jealous, having a belief in something good.  Maybe that’s part of the cynic in me.  I think Robert Langdon said it best, “faith is a gift I have yet to receive.”  But believing something that, to me, is so obviously fictional is…..well, I just don’t GET it.  

 

I remember having a discussion with a priest one time (I think it was at my dads funeral).  He asked “what if you are wrong?”  I said “well, hopefully I’ll get some credit for sticking to my beliefs no matter how unpopular they are.  And I did so after real soul-searching, not just paying lip service to whatever I was told I should believe without real reflection.”  He replied something to the effect of “well, I can respect that” then walked off.  I don’t think he was expecting that from a teenager.

 

Not in the least insulted by anything you wrote.  

 

My background was quite the opposite.  No one in my family was a believer.  My parents divorced early.  Dad was an alcoholic and mean as hell.  Mom was (is) one who self-medicated to get by.  I consider myself a skeptic by nature.  I was probably more like the Apostle Thomas.  To my shame, I too would have wanted to see the nail prints and the scar on the side.  I wasn't sure what to believe in.  I just knew that there had to be more to life than what we experience.  

 

Which brings me to your statement about myth.  Why is it do you think that every civilization is fascinated with myth?  We simply can't get enough of it.  Could it not be that there are shadows and hints of truth (what really happened) within those myths?  Is that why they get down deep into our souls? 

 

I believe Christianity is the myth that is true as CS Lewis put it.  My faith is not blind.  Mine is evidenced based.  I came to be a believer actually looking in the occult section of a library.  (I once believed in ancient aliens but then you get back to the fact that they don't explain how the universe came from nothing).  I saw a book on Biblical prophecy.  That is what got my attention.  The Bible is the only religious book that dares to predict the future.  If you're going to be so bold then you had better be right.  The great Isaiah scroll had the greatest impact on me.  Specifically, Isaiah 53.  What Jews call the forbidden chapter.  Forbidden in that they don't allow it to be read in their synagogues.  Of course, we know why that is...

 

That scroll is scientifically dated between 150 to 100 BCE.  Well before the coming of Christ.  Yet the prophecy was fulfilled even as verified by unbelievers like Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger who wrote about the crucifixion.  

 

Isaiah 53 

Who has believed what we have heard?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a young plant
and like a root out of dry ground.
He didn’t have an impressive form
or majesty that we should look at him,
no appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of suffering who knew what sickness was.
He was like someone people turned away from;
he was despised, and we didn’t value him.

4 Yet he himself bore our sicknesses,
and he carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced because of our rebellion,
crushed because of our iniquities;
punishment for our peace was on him,
and we are healed by his wounds.
6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished him
for the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughter
and like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 He was taken away because of oppression and judgment,
and who considered his fate?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
he was struck because of my people’s rebellion.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
but he was with a rich man at his death,
because he had done no violence
and had not spoken deceitfully.

10 Yet the Lord was pleased to crush him severely.
When you make him a guilt offering,
he will see his seed, he will prolong his days,
and by his hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished.
11 After his anguish,
he will see light and be satisfied.
By his knowledge,
my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will carry their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him the many as a portion,
and he will receive the mighty as spoil,
because he willingly submitted to death,
and was counted among the rebels;
yet he bore the sin of many
and interceded for the rebels.

 

What I love as I study the Bible is that you realize that many of the scriptures are a polemic to those who thought they got things right about history.  A lot of the Old Testament is a correction of what the civilizations of Ugarit, Babylonia, Assyria, Hittites, Egyptians, etc. thought were the true accounts as they were taught by rebel elohim.  The Bible mocks them over and over.  Pronouncing judgment upon those who deceive the people.  

 

Most of the problems you have with the Bible (and Christianity) can most likely be attributed to a misunderstanding of what is actually being said.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Kinda hard for believers and non-believers to meet halfway on respecting each other's beliefs when comparing the Bible to LOTR is on the table.

 

It was the best comparison I could come up with.  If you have a more respectful comparison that still captures my thoughts, I'm all ears.  Both the Bible and LOTR are (in my mind) books that are about an ancient, mythical time, really long, teach good value/morals, well-written, and are fictional.  As I said, I didn't mean to insult.  It's not like I compared the Bible to a Calvin and Hobbes book.

 

27 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

Which brings me to your statement about myth.  Why is it do you think that every civilization is fascinated with myth?  We simply can't get enough of it.  Could it not be that there are shadows and hints of truth (what really happened) within those myths?  Is that why they get down deep into our souls? 

People in general enjoy good stories.  And some of the best stories teach a lesson while also trying to entertain.  As for the shadows of truth, I don't doubt that some stories in the Bible are at least based around some event that happened but because of a lack of scientific understanding of what was taking place, they were associated with a "God".  Then those stories were relayed over the years getting embellished or bent just a little.  For example, raining down fire and brimstone could easily have been their interpretation of a meteor shower.

 

32 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

Mine is evidenced based.

And this where people can respectfully disagree.  I feel that my lack of faith is evidence based.

 

 

[ThomasRoane]

2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

And this where people can respectfully disagree.  I feel that my lack of faith is evidence based.

 

 

 

A prophecy that came true is not evidence then?  

 

Not impressed with the one?  How about the fact that there are over 300 Biblical references to 61 specific prophecies about the Messiah that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ of Nazareth?  

 

More importantly, if you could be 100 percent convinced that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and truly is the only way to gain salvation would you follow Him with believing loyalty?

[Renegade7]

@ThomasRoane your better off bringing archeology into this conversation when it comes to the conversation of evidence. For non-believers, its like talking past them, not to them, when using the Bible to validate its own historical events that it describes.

[86 Snyder]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@ThomasRoane your better off bringing archeology into this conversation when it comes to the conversation of evidence. For non-believers, its like talking past them, not to them, when using the Bible to validate its own historical events that it describes.

 

True story.  Fulfilling known prophecy is a bit of an open book test, no?

 

While we are on the subject of archeology...

 

How old is the earth?

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by 86 Snyder