What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[Jabbyrwock]

21 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

Man, I hate "jus"

 

Wow...this could really go the wrong way if you read that with a long "u" sound (like in music) rather than a short "u" (like bus).

 

...thought the religion thread was taking a pretty awful turn for a second there...

Edited February 18, 2022 by Jabbyrwock

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

18 minutes ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

Wow...this could really go the wrong way if you read that with a long "u" sound (like in music) rather than a short "u" (like bus).

 

...thought the religion thread was taking a pretty awful turn for a second there...

 

Seigen Heil Juuuuus meine Yurmany!!!!!

[The Sisko]

6 hours ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

Man, I hate "jus"

 

Put the T in there.

 

6 hours ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

Wow...this could really go the wrong way if you read that with a long "u" sound (like in music) rather than a short "u" (like bus).

 

...thought the religion thread was taking a pretty awful turn for a second there...

 

[PeterMP]

On 2/18/2022 at 6:47 AM, Renegade7 said:

Praying is not expected to protect everyone from every possible bad thing that could happen to us from happening to us.  This is Earth, not Heaven, bad things comes with the territory at minimum.

 

Anyone is welcome to believe what they want to believe, but I don't agree with holding religion to unrealistic standards like this jus for the sake of saying they are unrealistic. 

 

There are plenty of fair criticisms of religion, many I agree with, but what you are claiming here, this isn't one of them. 

 

I don't think this is completely accurate.  There are certainly a subset of Christians that believe if enough true believers pray for something that God will intercede and prevent it from happening.

 

Franklin Graham's post linked in the other thread is a good example where:

 

https://deadstate.org/franklin-graham-pray-for-president-putin-today/

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

I don't think this is completely accurate.  There are certainly a subset of Christians that believe if enough true believers pray for something that God will intercede and prevent it from happening.

 

Franklin Graham's post linked in the other thread is a good example where:

 

https://deadstate.org/franklin-graham-pray-for-president-putin-today/

 

A "subset" of Christains should not be used to infer that most if not all Christians have that expectation.

 

There's a subset that believes the second coming of Christ was a dead South Korean guy in the 20th century, non-denominational.  There's another subset that doesn't believe in celebrating certain Christian holidays.  Another subset got together and killed themselves via poisoned fruit punch.  How many denominations of Christianity are there now anyway?

 

Should the actions of those subsets be used to speak for the beliefs of Christianity as a whole, that because a small subset believes something, it should be inferred they all do?  

 

 I already asked my pastor about this a while ago, more then one more then one time, I was never raised to expect prayer to stop every terrible thing from happing to me or anyone ever.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Renegade7

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Beliefs are dumb.

 

Dumb.

 

Prove it.

 

What the **** is the secrecy for?  Put yourself out there, "God", and say something.

 

Or do I need to trip off of brain acid, to tell people I saw Him?

 

Remember to capitalize "Him".

 

He has a penis.

[The Sisko]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:40 AM, Renegade7 said:

 

A "subset" of Christains should not be used to infer that most if not all Christians have that expectation.

 

There's a subset that believes the second coming of Christ was a dead South Korean guy in the 20th century, non-denominational.  There's another subset that doesn't believe in celebrating certain Christian holidays.  Another subset got together and killed themselves via poisoned fruit punch.  How many denominations of Christianity are there now anyway?

 

Should the actions of those subsets be used to speak for the beliefs of Christianity as a whole, that because a small subset believes something, it should be inferred they all do?  

 

 I already asked my pastor about this a while ago, more then one more then one time, I was never raised to expect prayer to stop every terrible thing from happing to me or anyone ever.

I don't know that it's a subset. Most every Christian I've ever met prays for stuff they want or need and if it happens, "God is good, all the time" but if it doesn't, then he's got a bigger plan or he works in mysterious ways. Even athletes frequently talk about how God ordained their team victory or their personal performance, never mind that while he was doing that, he also decided to let millions of kids across the globe starve, be molested, succumb to illnesses, accidents, etc. If you ask me, he's got his priorities a bit mixed up.

I have two problems, with the whole concept. First, one person having their prayers answered or being “blessed” implies that another wasn’t worthy, did something wrong, etc. Second, if God is omniscient, he knows before you even ask whether he’s going to grant a prayer or not. So, telling adherents to pray for things knowing their prayers will have no effect on your decision is psychological abuse IMO.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

I don't know that it's a subset. Most every Christian I've ever met prays for stuff they want or need and if it happens, "God is good, all the time" but if it doesn't, then he's got a bigger plan or he works in mysterious ways.

 

 

The topic of discussion is whether prayer is expected and backed up via Bible verses to prevent anything bad from ever happening to anyone ever while on Earth.  I have not seen that verse, have you?

 

I don't see anything wrong with strong believers happy that their prayers are answered or accepting when they aren't, the Lord's Prayer in the Book of Matthew talks about "thy will be done", not "my will be done", and it has been a process for me to accept the difference regardless of how i feel about it:

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 6%3A9-13&version=KJV

 

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

 

Even athletes frequently talk about how God ordained their team victory or their personal performance, never mind that while he was doing that, he also decided to let millions of kids across the globe starve, be molested, succumb to illnesses, accidents, etc. If you ask me, he's got his priorities a bit mixed up.

 

Beal thanks "his lord and savior" at the start of every post-game interview he does, but that doesn't actually prove God is rooting for Beal over the Sacramento Kings.  Philip Rivers abstained from sex with his wife that he meet in grade school because of their beliefs, but he never won a super bowl.  There's no evidence whatsoever that God is prioritizing athletes over kids getting raped, none.

 

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

I have two problems, with the whole concept. First, one person having their prayers answered or being “blessed” implies that another wasn’t worthy, did something wrong, etc.

 

 

We're talking about a religion here, man, this isn't about folks being worthy or blessed, what you are getting at is expectations for people that practice that religion (and importantly how) compared to everyone else. 

 

I get your frustrations, and I've made comments here and to other Christians that I don't look forward to an end times because of the varying impacts it would have on people I know and care for that don't share the same beliefs as me. 

 

Having said that, it's a religion, what do you expect the religion to say and what religion doesn't also say that there may be different results for people based on how they practice that religion?  This may be a disappointing concept for non-believers, but I dont find it worthy of a potshot in context of what religion is. 

 

Science has a similar rule, you can't pick and choose what laws of physics to follow and expect the same as results as someone else who actually follows them. Your rocket could explode before it even gets off the ground.

 

Even if the Koran said "x would happen to non-believers" (which i dont know, and have not looked) that's not going to make me convert to Islam.  The irony here being the Abrahamic religions are talking about the same God, jus different beliefs regarding Jesus.

 

I've seen references to God loving us all, being upset with some of the things we do, but making it clear that we have a choice between right and wrong.  The energy that is being wasted on God not stopping something should be directed at the humans doing it or worse allowing it to happen and "also doing nothing". 

 

 

Why waste time being mad over an expectation that even believers don't have (regarding God stopping every bad thing from happening to anyone via prayer)?

 

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

 

Second, if God is omniscient, he knows before you even ask whether he’s going to grant a prayer or not. So, telling adherents to pray for things knowing their prayers will have no effect on your decision is psychological abuse IMO.

 

This is an interesting question that I've asked my wife about before in reference to not "already having made his mind up", but already knowing the future and future decision he will make. 

 

An example that comes to mind is when Abraham is "negotiating" with God in Gensis over destroying Sodom.  Abraham is like "surely if there's x number of good people in Sodom, you won't destroy the whole city and everyone in it?"  God's respond is "find x number of good people", and that number keeps changing via Abraham. 

 

The way I took that story was even if God already "made up his mind" on what he wanted to do, he still wanted Abraham to ask that question (without telling him to), as part of a larger point and discussion in regards to killing everyone, including good people, in an attempt to punish the bad ones.  If this conversation does not happen, it doesn't make it into the scriptures, nor does it make it into the Bible. 

 

I can think of other examples, but if you've even read this far, I imagine you likely still aren't buying it and are either going to ask for other examples, debate other examples, or throw your hands up like I'm defending God no matter what.

 

So let me make this clear (not in a snarky way, but in a 'so we're on the same page here' way), I do not agree with everything God does or doesn't do, and that's one of the reasons I started this thread. 

 

I'm on my own personal journey to understand what it means to be a Christian, I am learning stuff as I go and challenging stuff as I go.  So don't ask me to defend everything Christianity is or does because I won't do it.  That doesn't mean there are somethings worthy of defense despite my not standing up to do it myself, but I'm not going to take the role here, I'm not a pastor, I'm jus some random dude on the Internet.

 

And if you still think this whole Religion thing is BS, that's fine, too.  This is a "What Do You Believe" thread, and it's not my place to try to keep comments respectful to others beliefs (ive already been reprimanded for trying), I'll jus lead by example. 

 

Not all religious and non-religious folks should be painted with broad strokes generalizing all of them in an attempt to make these complicated issues and debates easier (not saying you are doing that, this is jus my opinion on how I operate and wish we all did).

Edited February 21, 2022 by Renegade7

[PeterMP]

So what are being discussed here are called prayers of petition or intercessory prayers (though that term is more often used to describe something else).

 

There are many people that believe in the power of prayers of petition in that they believe sometimes God intercedes to change the out come (e.g. God changes the laws of the universe locally or something so somebody that should have died doesn't).  I used the word subset to start, and I don't know a number but I strongly suspect the majority of Christians (more than 50%) believe in prayers of petition at that level.  And to my knowledge, there isn't a Christian faith tradition (i.e. denomination) that rejects the utility of them in that God can/does intercede despite the fact that scientific studies indicate it doesn't happen and prayers of petition have essentially no affect and in some cases can have negative affects (if the person that is being prayed for knows they are being prayed for, believes in the power of prayer, and knows they are party of a study in prayer).

 

https://secularhumanism.org/2018/12/have-christians-accepted-the-scientific-conclusion-that-god-does-not-answer-intercessory-prayer/

 

But the idea among at least some Christians that the prayers of petition aren't about getting God to intercede (e.g. change the laws of the universe locally or something so some people live when they should die or whatever) is an old idea.  That prayer is about changing us and not changing the universe.  And the argument about the utility of prayers of petition easily outdate modern science and the findings on prayers of petition.

 

https://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/mission/campusministry/RegularSpiritualPractices/resources/spirituality/restlesshearts/prayers.html

 

And there is good evidence that prayer (and related activities like meditation) change the participant in mostly positive ways.  Prayer can be useful even if it doesn't result in God changing the universe to give you what you've asked for.

 

(But I do think most Christians believe in prayers of petitions in that God actually does something to grant the prayers sometimes.)

[skinsmarydu]

My dad always said that we should take time to listen after prayers, we might hear the answers we seek. 

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

9 hours ago, skinsmarydu said:

My dad always said that we should take time to listen after prayers, we might hear the answers we seek. 

 

My dad always said religion is bull****, and we should seek the answers ourselves.

 

Well, I have.  The answers to one religion, book, mythology...all come to one point, from what I've researched.  There is no proof, except for anecdotal evidence.

 

Why is Mythology, called Mythology?

 

How are the Greek Gods CLEARLY fake, and ole Christ Sr. is CLEARLY real?

[PeterMP]

24 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

My dad always said religion is bull****, and we should seek the answers ourselves.

 

Well, I have.  The answers to one religion, book, mythology...all come to one point, from what I've researched.  There is no proof, except for anecdotal evidence.

 

Why is Mythology, called Mythology?

 

How are the Greek Gods CLEARLY fake, and ole Christ Sr. is CLEARLY real?

 

For many years, the idea of plate tectonics was only really supported by anecdotal evidence.

 

That didn't mean the people that believed in it were wrong.  Many humans believe many things only based on anecdotal evidence.  And I suspect that includes you.

Edited February 23, 2022 by PeterMP

[TheGreatBuzz]

Has anyone tried to pray Putin out of Ukraine?

[Jabbyrwock]

5 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

Has anyone tried to pray Putin out of Ukraine?

Research has shown that "pray the gay away" doesnt work.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

12 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

For many years, the idea of plate tectonics was only really supported by anecdotal evidence.

 

That didn't mean the people that believed in it were wrong.  Many humans believe many things only based on anecdotal evidence.

 

Anecdotal would be a person on the ground realizing the ground moved a little bit after every earthquake.

 

It was early research that needed to be proven, and they did that.  Thus proving it.  Unlike pure, unfiltered anecdotes that keep religion alive.

 

I'm gonna be the Greek Mythology guy in this thread.  Prove to me its not real.  Zeus for life.

 

[Renegade7]

@d0ublestr0ker0ll there's no proof that God doesn't exist, either.

 

There's plenty of information about the way the universe works that doesn't need a variable or source like God for it to be real or true.  We know how the water cycle works enough that we don't need to say God is doing it to explain how it works.

 

But that is not proof there is no God.  And science will never be able to prove that He is real any more then it can prove that He isn't.

 

@PeterMP I saw your post earlier and will get back to you about that, not ignoring you.

 

In meantime, check this out and tell me what you think (as this was something someone passed to me after telling them about your post):

 

Mark 9:26-29

 

Quote

And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

 

The way I took this was the disciples failure to complete an exorcism and Jesus explaining this would take more then prayer alone.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Renegade7

[PeterMP]

16 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

Anecdotal would be a person on the ground realizing the ground moved a little bit after every earthquake.

 

It was early research that needed to be proven, and they did that.  Thus proving it.  Unlike pure, unfiltered anecdotes that keep religion alive.

 

I'm gonna be the Greek Mythology guy in this thread.  Prove to me its not real.  Zeus for life.

 

 

So first, technically plate tectonics isn't proven.  It is just the best explanation for the available evidence.

 

Also, I don't think anybody here cares if you believe in Zeus.  The thread is what do you believe.  Not convince me what you believe is correct or what I believe is incorrect.

Edited February 23, 2022 by PeterMP

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@d0ublestr0ker0ll there's no proof that God doesn't exist, either.

 

There's plenty of information about the way the universe works that doesn't need a variable or source like God for it to be real or true.  We know how the water cycle works enough that we don't need to say God is doing it to explain how it works.

 

But that is not proof there is no God.  And science will never be able to prove that He is real any more then it can prove that He isn't

 

This is the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument.  There is no proof that it doesn't exist.  The Burden of Proof is on the people making the argument.

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

This is the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument.  There is no proof that it doesn't exist.  The Burden of Proof is on the people making the argument.

 

Burden of proof is on whoever is making the argument, it goes both ways.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

10 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

So first, technically plate tectonics isn't proven.  It is just the best explanation for the available evidence.

 

So all of the fault lines that grind against each other, are hard to believe like Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and the laughable Genesis.  Ok.

[PeterMP]

3 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

So all of the fault lines that grind against each other, are hard to believe like Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and the laughable Genesis.  Ok.

 

The idea that parts of the Bible shouldn't be taken literally is a very old idea and pre-dates modern science when things like Genesis became laughable.  Even before people knew that Genesis was laughable due to science there were people that questioned how accurate it was.

 

While a good percent of Christians today take the Bible literally, that's actually the newer belief in Christian circles and only really became a more mainstream belief in the last 60 years or so.

 

Also plate tectonics is much more than fault lines grind against one another.

Edited February 23, 2022 by PeterMP

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

Burden of proof is on whoever is making the argument, it goes both ways.

 

No it doesn't.  You are making the claim God is real.  Prove it.

 

Prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't real.  You can't.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

Also plate tectonics is much more than fault lines grind against one another.

 

Ok, so the plates are divided by fault lines, and they SMASH and grind.  Ok.  There is a ridiculous amount of evidence.  Again, if its proven to be something else, I'll do my research on it.

 

Question everything.  Do you question your religion...ever play Devil's Advocate with it?

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

No it doesn't.  You are making the claim God is real.  Prove it.

 

I am claiming He is real, but I'm also saying it's impossible to prove that with science.  That's not what religion is or does.

 

2 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

Prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't real.  You can't.

 

And neither can you prove that He isn't, can you?  You are also making a claim that you cannot prove, at least I'm admitting it, now it's your turn.

[PeterMP]

1 minute ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

Ok, so the plates are divided by fault lines, and they SMASH and grind.  Ok.  There is a ridiculous amount of evidence.  Again, if its proven to be something else, I'll do my research on it.

 

Question everything.  Do you question your religion...ever play Devil's Advocate with it?

 

Sure.

 

Do you ever question that you actually exist as a physical entity?

 

Do you ever question whether every thing we know from science will be wrong tomorrow?

Edited February 23, 2022 by PeterMP