What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

True story.  Fulfilling known prophecy is a bit of an open book test, no?

 

While we are on the subject of archeology...

 

How old is the earth?

 

4.5 billion years, last I checked.

 

Having said that, I get crap from both sides for my beliefs, like that God created Evolution.

 

 

[86 Snyder]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

4.5 billion years, last I checked.

 

Having said that, I get crap from both sides for my beliefs, like that God created Evolution.

 

 

 

Thanks.  That question is basically a litmus test for whether I'll bother with any kind of discussion.

 

To quickly clarify my position, I could and probably do agree with the existence of a creator.  I also find Genesis and much of the old testament to be insulting to my intelligence if expected to be taken literally.  I think there was a Jesus of nazareth, despite scare mentioning aside from the bible.  I dont particularly enjoy the tail chasing that happens when you begin to analyze scripture, either the specific meaning of passages or the origin of them, because inevitably you are forced to dissect mutiple ancient languages and fill in gaps regarding translation history.  And so I end up in a place of thought that boils down to "this is not a fair request of god to expect everyone to complete the mental gymnastics required to arrive at unshakeable faith that jesus was a diety in human form, with the weight of eternity resting in the balance".  If he had been born 2,000 years later we could at least watch his sermons on youtube, check out a miracle or two...that would be a whole lot more fair.

 

So currently I'm trying to figure out some middle ground between looking around and thinking theres a god who is a master scientist that put all this into motion, versus a literal reading of the old and new testament.  But its real hard to watch all the bull**** in the world arrive on our own doorstep in the form of red maga hats, see the most devout people I know take the side of one of the biggest pieces of **** I can possibly imagine, and think to myself "yeah those people definitely have the afterlife figured out for sure".

 

And lately ive been thinking, why not just make it up for myself?  Fill in the gaps the best I can?  People have been doing it for thousands of years and really theres no way to prove the writers of the gospels (if you can even prove exactly who they are) werent doing that themselves.  Its really not that different than what was described upthread regarding gods approval of the writing of the scriptures...basically, close enough, good job, its not *exactly* what I would say but its in the zip code so lets put it into circulation for the next few millenium.

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

A prophecy that came true is not evidence then?  

 

Not impressed with the one?  How about the fact that there are over 300 Biblical references to 61 specific prophecies about the Messiah that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ of Nazareth?  

 

More importantly, if you could be 100 percent convinced that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and truly is the only way to gain salvation would you follow Him with believing loyalty?

 

To your first two lines, as another poster said, they are like an open book test.  If seen some that are claimed to predict 9/11 but when I read them, you see similarities but that always seems to only work with the benefit of hindsight.  Just because I predict that we "will be covered with a cold, white powder" doesn't mean I'm a prophet because it eventually snows.

 

And regarding prophecies (and I'm probably swinging above my weight class here), wasn't the Messiah supposed to bring peace on earth and such?  My understanding is that is the main difference between Christianity and Judaism.  Christians believe Jesus was the man, Jews are more of the mindset that he was a cool dude and all, but not the Messiah.

 

If I could be 100% convinced that Jesus was the man, I don't see why I wouldn't follow him.  But I don't know it is possible to convince me 100%.  I'm always open to learning and I will listen.  But many have tried before to convince me and I just don't feel it.  

[dfitzo53]

3 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

It was the best comparison I could come up with.  If you have a more respectful comparison that still captures my thoughts, I'm all ears.  Both the Bible and LOTR are (in my mind) books that are about an ancient, mythical time, really long, teach good value/morals, well-written, and are fictional.  As I said, I didn't mean to insult.  It's not like I compared the Bible to a Calvin and Hobbes book.

 

Sir. Sir!

 

This is a civilized conversation. I will not have Calvin and Hobbes slandered so.

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

True story.  Fulfilling known prophecy is a bit of an open book test, no?

 

While we are on the subject of archeology...

 

How old is the earth?

 

 

 

So you don't believe in carbon dating then?  The Great Isaiah Scroll was carbon dated for 150 to 100 BCE.  Either you trust in science or not.  (I was referring to archaeology btw)

 

How old is the earth?

 

I'm an old earth creationist.  Science says the universe is about 14 billion years or so old.  The Bible never tells us how old the earth or the universe says.  It doesn't tell us what happened before "In the beginning."  Also, 24 hour days don't start until day 4 or so in the Bible.

 

We can go back and forth, round and round, tossing out facts and figures.  It's boring and tedious and we will get nowhere.  We all know the arguments and counter arguments.  

 

I'll pose the most important question to you now 86 Snyder.  If you could know with 100% certainty that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and truly is the only way to gain salvation would you follow Him with believing loyalty?

Edited October 1, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[86 Snyder]

2 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

So you don't believe in carbon dating then?  The Great Isaiah Scroll was carbon dated for 150 to 100 BCE.  Either you trust in science or not.  (I was referring to archaeology btw)

 

How old is the earth?

 

I'm an old earth creationist.  Science says the universe is about 14 billion years or so old.  The Bible never tells us how old the earth or the universe says.  It doesn't tell us what happened before "In the beginning."  Also, 24 hour days don't start until day 4 or so in the Bible.

 

We can go back and forth, round and round, tossing out facts and figures.  It's boring and tedious and we will get nowhere.  We all know the arguments and counter arguments.  

 

I'll pose the most important question to you now 86 Snyder.  If you could know with 100% certainty that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and truly is the only way to gain salvation would you follow Him with believing loyalty?

 

Answered upstream.

[ThomasRoane]

20 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

To your first two lines, as another poster said, they are like an open book test.  If seen some that are claimed to predict 9/11 but when I read them, you see similarities but that always seems to only work with the benefit of hindsight.  Just because I predict that we "will be covered with a cold, white powder" doesn't mean I'm a prophet because it eventually snows.

 

My argument was based on scientific, carbon dating.  

 

20 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

And regarding prophecies (and I'm probably swinging above my weight class here), wasn't the Messiah supposed to bring peace on earth and such?  My understanding is that is the main difference between Christianity and Judaism.  Christians believe Jesus was the man, Jews are more of the mindset that he was a cool dude and all, but not the Messiah.

 

The Messiah came first to suffer and then returns to judge the living and the dead.  And then He brings peace.  The pieces to the puzzle were not easy to fit together until after the resurrection.  Jesus had to explain the plan to His disciples in more detail after He had one.  Reason being, the Devil reads the Bible to.  When Jesus was in the wilderness, how did the Devil tempt Him?  It was using the Scriptures right?  He was probing to find out what the Lord's plan was.  As intelligent as he was, he couldn't put all the pieces of the puzzle together.  Jesus needed to die on the cross to rescue us from the power of hell and death.  Satan and his companions didn't know that.  If they had, they never would have crucified the Lord of Glory. (1 Corinthians 2:8).  

 

You may say that it sounds unfair to the Jews and Romans who crucified Him.  Yet didn't the Lord say on the cross Father forgive them.  For they know not what they do?  Many did indeed repent of their sin.  When Peter spoke to them at the temple of Jerusalem.  Those who liked their extravagant and peaceful lives did not.  In the end, they chose the world over their Messiah; hell over heaven.

 

20 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

If I could be 100% convinced that Jesus was the man, I don't see why I wouldn't follow him.  But I don't know it is possible to convince me 100%.  I'm always open to learning and I will listen.  But many have tried before to convince me and I just don't feel it.  

 

Ah, an honest atheist.  If you truly seek with all your heart, your soul, and your mind you will find Him.  Is it okay if I pray for you?  Not going to preach or anything.  I'll answer questions if they're honest.  But I would like to pray for you. 

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

To quickly clarify my position, I could and probably do agree with the existence of a creator.  I also find Genesis and much of the old testament to be insulting to my intelligence if expected to be taken literally.  I think there was a Jesus of nazareth, despite scare mentioning aside from the bible.  I dont particularly enjoy the tail chasing that happens when you begin to analyze scripture, either the specific meaning of passages or the origin of them, because inevitably you are forced to dissect mutiple ancient languages and fill in gaps regarding translation history.  And so I end up in a place of thought that boils down to "this is not a fair request of god to expect everyone to complete the mental gymnastics required to arrive at unshakeable faith that jesus was a diety in human form, with the weight of eternity resting in the balance". 

 

 

Interesting take.  To each their own I suppose.  Personally, I find that my faith in the scriptures has improved exponentially as I've come to see how clever the ancient writers were.  They took God's revelations and put them into narrative forms that their contemporaries could easily remember and understand.  I'm a history nerd so I really enjoy learning what their lives were like.  Getting the ancient middle easterner in my mind has helped a great deal. 

 

Take the parable of the lost coin.

 

Luke 15: 8 “Or what woman who has ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 When she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found the silver coin I lost!’ 10 I tell you, in the same way, there is joy in the presence of God’s angels over one sinner who repents.”

 

For years, I used to yawn at this parable.  Okay, she had 10 and lost one.  She still had nine left.  I don't get why the great joy?  Until I found out more about middle eastern culture.  

 

In Judea, a bride came to her husband with at least ten silver coins sewn round her head-band, and often more: and her husband knew just how many there were, for he could see them.  They belonged to him, as she did, although the Law did not allow his creditors to seize these personal coins on his wife’s head.
Nevertheless, woe betide the woman who lost her coins: her husband immediately suspected her of a wrong use of them; and the laws of divorce in the Master’s day were so heavily loaded against the wife that a man might divorce his wife if but one of those marital coins was missing from her headgear.
That was why that woman in the Master’s sharply drawn tale of sweeping so desperately; taking broom and candle in an agony of dismay.
She was sweeping, not only for a bit of metal, but for home and shelter and respectability; for her right to a safe and honorable place in society, perhaps even for her right to her children.” – Lady Hoise, in Peloubet’s Select Notes on the International Bible Lessons 1956.

 

So now, as I read the parable of the lost coin, I get the big picture.  The story is richer and more impactful than before.  

 

That's just one of countless examples that I have come across.  There's a reason the Bible is still the best selling book of all time.  There is so much that the writers are trying to get across to the reader.  Most Christians are truly missing out.  Especially the King James only crew.  

 

Then there is the whole theme of how God deals with His people.  Judeo Christianity is so unique in that God bothered to tell people what He expected of them.  Every other civilization, besides ancient Israel, lived in utter fear of their gods.  They didn't know what to expect.  When bad things happened they had to guess at what their gods (little g on purpose) wanted from them.  Yet Yahweh gave His people the Mosaic law.  If you do such and such you will be blessed.  Otherwise, you will be cursed.  Unfortunately, by the time of Jesus first coming the religious leaders had turned the law into a legalistic taskmaster that no one could live up to.  Not even them!  Jesus corrected them by expounding on the Spirit of His law in many of His parables and sermons.  

 

The Lord put it very well Himself.  Society knows this as the Golden Rule.

 

Matthew 22

34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together. 35 And one of them, an expert in the law, asked a question to test him: 36 “Teacher, which command in the law is the greatest?”

37 He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and most important command. 39 The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands.”

 

Jesus is also drawing, cleverly, on the Ten Commandments.  The first four can be summed up as Love the Lord your God with all your heart.  The remaining six can be summed up as Love your neighbor as yourself.  

 

Then there are the Gospels.  Matthew cleverly weaves in all the ways that Jesus was the Moses they were looking for.

 

Deuteronomy 18 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

 

• Moses was in the wilderness before he led Israel out of Egypt.  Jesus was in the wilderness before He would lead His people out of the modern Egypt - the world and sin.
• Moses was on the mountain for 40 days with no food or drink.  Jesus was in the wilderness 40 days with no food or drink
• Moses called on the Lord to feed the people and mana was sent.  Jesus fed the 5,000 with bread.

On and on there are countless, clever comparisons, chiasms, polemics, etc. that you'll miss if you just gloss over them and don't spend time to really think about what it is the writer wants you to know about God and the Kingdom of heaven.  A good start is The Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser.  You'll realize that when the ancient Israelite heard about a talking snake in the garden of Eden they didn't take that literally.  But their ears perked up because what was in play here was that there was a spiritual throne guardian who just entered the story.  

 

 

1 hour ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

If he had been born 2,000 years later we could at least watch his sermons on youtube, check out a miracle or two...that would be a whole lot more fair.

 

And yet so many who were miraculously fed bread and fish were the very same ones who cried out "crucify him!"  Seeing isn't believing.  Believing is seeing.  ~Judy the Elf from The Santa Clause - it still works though.

 

1 hour ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

So currently I'm trying to figure out some middle ground between looking around and thinking theres a god who is a master scientist that put all this into motion, versus a literal reading of the old and new testament.  But its real hard to watch all the bull**** in the world arrive on our own doorstep in the form of red maga hats, see the most devout people I know take the side of one of the biggest pieces of **** I can possibly imagine, and think to myself "yeah those people definitely have the afterlife figured out for sure".

 

Or, you can ask Him to truly open your mind to understand the Scriptures.  To come and make Himself known and real to you because you really want to know who He is.  

 

1 hour ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

And lately ive been thinking, why not just make it up for myself?  Fill in the gaps the best I can?  People have been doing it for thousands of years and really theres no way to prove the writers of the gospels (if you can even prove exactly who they are) werent doing that themselves.  Its really not that different than what was described upthread regarding gods approval of the writing of the scriptures...basically, close enough, good job, its not *exactly* what I would say but its in the zip code so lets put it into circulation for the next few millenium.

 

You're too intelligent for that.  You seem to me like someone who wants know the truth.  Keep searching.  You'll find it.  

 

Apologies for the book.  I'm waiting to que up to play New World with my sons.  Nothing else to do!

 

[86 Snyder]

@ThomasRoaneI appreciate the interesting reply.  A couple quick thoughts (without quoting for simplicity)

 

The parable of the lost coin highlights the patriarchy more than anything else to me.  Best find that coin or its gonna get abusive in here real quick.  Not that the author is advocating idomestic abuse, but perhaps a teaching of how that is not a good thing would have been a more constructive aside.  But that itself would be pretty inconsistent with a lot of how women are biblically treated.  I realize thats not your point, I'm claiming it as my own in this meandering sidebar.

 

I didnt get to see him feed the 5,000.  Would love the opportunity though, I'd go all in on him as messiah.  And water to wine?  You're my messiah AND new best friend.  

 

Regarding scientific carbon dating, of course I accept that.  I dont think anyone here disputes the age of Isaiah scrolls; for me I question whether a messiah was retrofit to fulfill the prophecy.  If I set out to create a religion based on a singular savior, I'd make sure he fit all the previously announced expectations of what that savior would accomplish.  It's an open book test.  That doesnt necessarily disqualify it from being true, just as it doesnt prove anything.  The whole thing would be a bit more believable to me if there were acknowledgments of his miracles and teachings littered throughout various cultures ancient texts, but other than a couple scarce mentionings, there's just not all that much to confirm the existence and works of Jesus of nazareth, aside from the bible.

 

The checkmate argument I really used to respect was why would so many early christians accept being put to death rather than denounce Jesus?  But now I realize, the world is full of crazy people that will literally do anything at any time.  The bible is a whole lot more plausible than a great many wacko cults that have lead to mass suicides, so I'm hardly surprised that early christians in a primitive world that had answers to absolutely nothing were willing to die on that hill of faith.  And also they probably knew they were getting the sword regardless of what they said, because those Roman soldiers were there for a good time, not catch and release.

 

I saw that you offered to pray for Buzz...which I was a little disappointed with, was hoping for a big reveal of solid evidence.  Bjt that aside, prayer itself is a sticky wicket for me.  To summarize George Carlin, a long time ago god came up with a divine plan.  Thought it was a good plan and put it into practice.  Now suppose the thing you want isnt in the divine plan.  What do you want him to do, change his plan?  Just for little old you?  And suppose your prayers arent answered?  Then what do you say?  Well its gods will...they will be done.  But if its gods will and hes going to do what he wants to do anyway, why bother praying in the first place?  

 

To apply it to this specific example, why does god need your prayer to begin helping Buzz acheive his enlightment?  Im genuinely asking.  

 

ETA: Yes, if I were ever 100% convinced, or really anything close to it for that matter, I'd follow Jesus with unwavering loyalty.  Closest I ever got was 55/45, then 50/50, 40/60...im like 5/95 now, on a good day.  Then I read the news and it gets worse.

Edited October 2, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[TheGreatBuzz]

5 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

My argument was based on scientific, carbon dating.  

 

I think I’ve lost what exactly the argument that you are trying to make is?  That you feel there is scientific proof that Jesus was/is the messiah?

 

5 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

Ah, an honest atheist.

 

I prefer to identify as plain old honest.

 

5 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

If you truly seek with all your heart, your soul, and your mind you will find Him.

 

In my opinion, I did.  I certainly put in more work than most people I know that show up a few Sundays out of the year while living lives generally considered sinful.  I knocked but no one answered.

 

5 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

Is it okay if I pray for you?

 

I’ve always been a big fan of people doing what they want, especially if it doesn’t hurt someone else.  You do you, bro.

[ThomasRoane]

12 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I think I’ve lost what exactly the argument that you are trying to make is?  That you feel there is scientific proof that Jesus was/is the messiah?

 

 

My point is that the Great Isaiah scroll has been scientifically carbon dated at about 150 - 100 BCE.  There are many prophecies about Jesus embedded in Isaiah.  Yet Isaiah 53 is the most powerful.  I hate math but by my calculation, the words that were filled about Christ's crucifixion were at least written down up to 200 years before the crucifixion event.  To say that is just coincidence is to really stretch your faith.  

 

I would not try to lean upon a prophecy that was self-contained in the Bible to witness to an unbeliever.  For example, there is a prophecy by Jeremiah that a King would come and destroy the high places in Ben Himmon early on in his book.  Then later on, in the book of Jeremiah, the prophecy was fulfilled by King Josiah.  As a believer who trusts the Bible, I have no problem with it.  I would never point to that as proof to an unbeliever however.  That would be the classic open book test.  

 

I think science validating Isaiah 53 is pretty powerful.  It was for me.  If I were to tell you today that the WFT would be KC 42 - 17 on October 17th and it happened exactly as I foretold.  Wouldn't you be interested in what I told you would happen to the WFT for the rest of the season?  

 

I don't like the word argument.  You can't argue someone into becoming a Christian.  I was simply giving you the evidence that put me on my journey to trust what is written in the Scriptures.  The Lord met me and since then there has been a cascade of evidence (mostly life experiences) that convinced me without a doubt that the Lord is who He says He is.  That is a personal quest for each person though I think.  Each person has to travel their own road toward Him and salvation.  Or go their own way...

[757SeanTaylor21]

Very good conversation going on here peoples and if i may I would like to chime in on a few things adding my perspective if you would kindly allow. Forgive me for I am on a phone and don't really know how to quote multiple things over and over and over so I will brush back into the tidbits and answer the question with a reference to the question so bare wit me. I use caps intermittently I'm not yelling but using that word for emphasis. Also I didn't read from page 1 to now. I read last 2 or so pages and just wanna talk wit yall so...

 

I've came to know Christ through a prophetic dream that literally I had no idea what it was meaning. I earnestly prayed over it when I was a believer but non practicing believer. I was the guy that said yeah I believe in Christ but uhh I'm not gonna keep on asking for forgiveness if I know 15 minutes later I'm doing the same things...I've encountered supernatural events that are completely unexplainable that was to the very tee of what was asked and it manifested. Only credit can be attributed to the Father. If any of you are interested in hearing (reading) I can share those with you and those are what keeps me grounded in the faith. I've actually experienced beyond what is here. Good and evil. No fairytales. I can't answer if Thomas or renegade or any of yall have but it's intense.  So I'm reading and I see you buzz and 86 and I'm not gonna label you atheists or whatever. I will chime in on some questions  yall have asked or talked about (minus the full history aspect cause im not a historian nor am I an apologist) but I'd also will like to ask you few questions as well as we  carry on.  Also I would like to add that I don't view myself as a "Christian" in the sense of what you may have experienced. I am a man after Christ though. I am spiritual. But I also get logic and reasoning as well. So I will use logic and reasoning for a lot and I can quote scriptures as well but you already don't believe in them so I'll try and minimize them.  To be honest. I'm not here to convince you that Jesus is real. Because truthfully I and anybody else can't. Only He can. But what I will do is love on yall regardless and talk with yall and share my viewpoints, thoughts, and experiences in the hopes that it moves that inner part of you to want to know more. Also I may get on a soapbox lol..forgive me. 

 

How old is the earth? However old the earth is...Thomas said what..some 4 billion years and change or whatever...I agree. The "christian" thing people pound saying what 25k years yeah right. Not happening.  Like Thomas said In the beginning of Genesis it never gives a point of when it began. Nor did it also state how long man was in the garden before they fell. It's whats called the time gap lapse. Time didn't actually become a thing until man fell. It didn't have any purpose to count time. The original purpose was to never die! 

 

There's definitely skeptic people in the Bible...heck even one of the 12 apostles doubted Jesus. He had to personally experience seeing Jesus resurrected. Lol. So to have a skeptical mind is understandable. Mind you I didn't come to Christ from a church service or simply reading scriptures. I didnr grow up in church or any of the sort. My belief was eh yeah we came from somewhere lol. So let me ask yall this. So we talk about this figure Jesus and you say ahh..yeah...nah doubt it...prove it to me. Show me the proof! Convince me! But do you carry this same mindset everywhere? What about in your unbelief...do you question those who say God DOESNT exist? If you ask your wife/husband/kid...how their day was and they go on about a classmate of theirs..or co worker...or whatever...do you raise the same questions of skepticism? I doubt it  look at me now playing the skeptic lol. .you take what they say at face value. Your kid says her day sucked cause she got hit in the head but u don't see any markings do you doubt that she got hit or do you need proof that she did? Most would believe she did. If you do then you have a measure of faith. Or stories of your great grand parents that you never met and passed away. You don't know they personally existed but you know they did and also what experiences were past down. Because faith is something you don't see but you still believe. In which everybody was given a measure of faith. Truth be told some may have more than others. Some need to be convinced or shown...some take it at face value and run and yadda yadda yadda. I think you get my gist? The thing is what actually is it that will get you to believe. For Thomas, even as a believer he doubted the resurrection until Jesus revealed Himself to him. So you can believe that He existed. U just choose not to. But again...what does it take TO believe? Or what is it that created this unbelief? Is it scientific evidence...historical evidence? Is it personal experience? 

 

Concerning prayer... the one thing to understand is that God is not a genie. He is not the dragon ball z dragon and grants all of our wishes. This is where the prosperity gospel name it and claim it fails amongst other reasonings. That's not what prayer is about nor should It ever. Scriptural speaking people forget the " if it's in His will" and cherry pick the rest. God is not obligated to do everything we ask of Him or that we want from Him. Heck let's be honest. People in their sinful heart would abuse the heck out of that would you agree? God I want a bmw. I want 3 million. I want that job. I want I want I want I want. That aint no relationship. Right? Imagine if your kid only really spoke with you when they wanted something. Dad I want a bmw. Give me 30k dollars. I want a new phone. Dont talk to me unless I get these things. And that's what a lot of so called believers do anyway! Only wanna pray when they need something. To understand the in His will aspect brings peace in prayer knowingly that hey, if I pray and it doesn't happen then I am OK either way. That simply is maturity. Things happen in life that are beyond my control. People die, people get hurt, people get divorced. Etc. If I expect everything to go away or get fixed because I prayed is it my will or His? Whaf If I pray and you pray for opposite things...what happens? So it begs the question well why pray then? Prayer is the lifeline in communication with God. God talks to us. He reveals things. It's all relational.  Usually we are so busy talking though we don't take time to listen. I remember I was in a prayer session with a group and I heard these words come to me about my pastor "bring up his promised son" and I was like huh what nah. Mind you I was kinda new so I didn't have much of a relationship with him as well so I was hesitant to even wanna be wrong. I heard it again...still refused to say it.  Heard it again...bring up his promised son and I will give you more....nope. and then bam this girl was like ... pastor mo idk why I heard this but something about your promised son and my heart SANK in that. That was suppose to be me but nope. I was disobedient and that crushed me in that moment.. now I've learned that voice and who it was in that moment. My pastor and his wife had been promised a son since they got married. They had a daughter And at that point they been trying for a couple years to get pregnant in their late 30s. Couple years later now and little Mo is here. So God came through.  And I've experienced times where He hasn't. Does that mean God doesn't exist? Or He doesn't love us?  Nah. It easily applies to us as well. When you tell your kids no you not getting a new phone. No yoh can't have any snacks or whatever you tell your kid no doesn't change the fact that you love them. Meanwhile if they dont feel like you love them in that moment doesn't change the fact that you do. It's exactly the same. Yet when it doesn't go our way we tend to alienate God because He didn't do what we wanted. 

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I’m not a believer but I’ve generally never had any problem with people who are. That being said, I’ve been feeling very cynical toward religion lately. 

One of the kids I coached down here was in a real bad car accident last week… he has a traumatic brain injury. It’s not good. So I’m checking for updates every day on Facebook and all the people down here are like, “God is so great!! Joey was able to toss a beach ball today!! Thank you Jesus for making this possible!”

 

Like, you’re telling me there is this all powerful being who can wave a magic wand and do whatever he wants but the most he’s gonna do is make it so the kid can toss a beach ball and you guys all fall on your knees?

 

Every little slightly positive thing is all thanks to God. Meanwhile, the kid may be brain damaged for life. Somebody said, “God will heal him in his own time.” And I’m like, “WTF?!?! Why should I not just call you out for your nonsense because you’re very obviously just saying ****?”

[ThomasRoane]

16 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

@ThomasRoaneI appreciate the interesting reply.  A couple quick thoughts (without quoting for simplicity)

 

The parable of the lost coin highlights the patriarchy more than anything else to me.  Best find that coin or its gonna get abusive in here real quick.  Not that the author is advocating idomestic abuse, but perhaps a teaching of how that is not a good thing would have been a more constructive aside.  But that itself would be pretty inconsistent with a lot of how women are biblically treated.  I realize thats not your point, I'm claiming it as my own in this meandering sidebar.

 

I quite agree with the problems of patriarchy.  Just because something was in the Bible, that doesn't mean that God approved of it.  The Bible is raw and real life.  Which to me, makes it more genuine.  If the writers tried to paint a perfect picture of the people of their nation then I'd have a hard time believing everything.  They tell you the good, the bad, and the ugly.  I do know that God did not like the idea of a husband having many wives.  In the beginning, man was to have one wife.  The Lord confirmed that in Matthew 19:5 and the two will become one flesh.  One thing you see over and over and over is that the husbands who had many wives (Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, etc.) had many troubles!  I like the joke from Wanda Sykes.  "You men and your obsession with multiple women as partners.  Can't keep one woman happy and you want to leave many unsatisfied?!"

 

When God appeared to Abram (later to be Abraham), a culture was already established.  Not necessarily a good one either.  The writer says quite often the people did what was right in their own eyes.  (Rather than what God taught)  That's a really long discussion (about the preexistent culture that is) and to be on common ground you'd probably have to do some reading to catch up.  If you're willing, I'd even buy a book for you.  You'd probably find it interesting even from the view of an unbeliever.  To sum up though, God knew that mankind would not turn it all around instantaneously.  We were created with free will and as such we are prone to selfishness, greed, and disobedience.  Even now, when Christians have the gift of the Holy Spirit written upon our hearts we mess up.  (I know I have made a lot of mistakes that I regret!) 

 

Christianity brought more rights to women than any government or religion.  The stories of women are very prominent in the Bible.  Deborah, Rahab, Hannah, Ruth, Ester, etc. are great heroines in the OT.  Then there are countless others in the New Testament.  There were even women who ran Churches out of their houses.  Paul never spoke against them teaching others.  Paul was concerned more with the husband/wife relationship.  He gave the husband the more difficult to challenge though.  Anybody can submit.  You can submit and cut the grass as your father told you to or else!  It's more difficult to love someone.  Especially imperfect, rebellious people who will often disappoint you.  The husband was to love his wife so much that he would die for her.  In a Roman culture where a wife could be divorced for a bad meal that was a radical command!  Peter even preached on the importance for a husband to love their wife.  The Apostles valued women but they were not tasked to bring upheaval to a patriarchal system unfair to women (or to slaves for that matter).  Their job was to introduce the Gospel.  To begin the revolution!  

 

Quote

I didnt get to see him feed the 5,000.  Would love the opportunity though, I'd go all in on him as messiah.  And water to wine?  You're my messiah AND new best friend.

 

Mine too!  I don't believe that Jesus made grape juice.  There are several scriptures that talk about wine being an alcoholic drink.  I enjoy a good glass of wine or a Guinness or two.  Islam forbids drinking.  Christianity does not.  We are not to be drunk though.  Like many God-given pleasures, the enemy loves to distort them and to use them to destroy us.

 

16 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

Regarding scientific carbon dating, of course I accept that.  I dont think anyone here disputes the age of Isaiah scrolls; for me I question whether a messiah was retrofit to fulfill the prophecy.  If I set out to create a religion based on a singular savior, I'd make sure he fit all the previously announced expectations of what that savior would accomplish.  It's an open book test.  That doesnt necessarily disqualify it from being true, just as it doesnt prove anything.  The whole thing would be a bit more believable to me if there were acknowledgments of his miracles and teachings littered throughout various cultures ancient texts, but other than a couple scarce mentionings, there's just not all that much to confirm the existence and works of Jesus of nazareth, aside from the bible.

 

To be clear, I was giving you all the reason that I came to trust the Bible.  Not why you should trust it.  You have to follow your own path.  I don't buy the interpolation argument.  Because no one but Christ Himself, not even His disciples understood that He had to die on the cross.  That was quite the shock so I don't see any hint of retrofitting there.  The Jews felt like anyone who was crucified was cursed.  The prophecies about it were intentionally cryptic.  The early Christians only understood the puzzle after the pieces had been put together.  See the account of the disciples on the road to Emmaus after the resurrection.  Again, there is a supernatural enemy and they know the Bible better than any of us. This was a chess match between Christ and the rebel angels who wanted Him to fail.  He picked a fight with them knowing that His death meant their defeat.  God is a 4D chess player.

 

16 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

The checkmate argument I really used to respect was why would so many early christians accept being put to death rather than denounce Jesus?  But now I realize, the world is full of crazy people that will literally do anything at any time.  The bible is a whole lot more plausible than a great many wacko cults that have lead to mass suicides, so I'm hardly surprised that early christians in a primitive world that had answers to absolutely nothing were willing to die on that hill of faith.  And also they probably knew they were getting the sword regardless of what they said, because those Roman soldiers were there for a good time, not catch and release.

 

The resurrection is the checkmate argument.  Had the Jews found a body they would have stopped Christianity in its tracks.  The fact that they couldn't is what upset the apple cart.  And eventually turned the Roman empire upside down.  The Christians went from hiding behind locked doors to preaching out in the open.  It wasn't so much that they were willing to die for the Gospel but rather they were willing to upset their entire lives for the sake of the Gospel!  They would lose everything.  Jobs, houses, families, spouses, etc. and yet they (especially the 500 who witnessed risen Christ) refused to recant.  (Dying by comparison is easier; it's over in an instant)  By the way, there aren't many good Christian movies, but the movie Risen however is very well done!  I like how they come at it with a nod towards forensics.  I would also highly recommend The Chosen.  That too is very well done.  Good acting and they really do a great job of expounding on what the culture of the day was like.  Even some pretty cool jokes.   I don't believe that Jesus and the disciples were serious all the time.  There probably were some humorous incidents between them.  The disciples were real people with real flaws and weaknesses.  The Chosen does a good job of showing the human side of Jesus and His followers.  

 

16 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

I saw that you offered to pray for Buzz...which I was a little disappointed with, was hoping for a big reveal of solid evidence.  Bjt that aside, prayer itself is a sticky wicket for me.  To summarize George Carlin, a long time ago god came up with a divine plan.  Thought it was a good plan and put it into practice.  Now suppose the thing you want isnt in the divine plan.  What do you want him to do, change his plan?  Just for little old you?  And suppose your prayers arent answered?  Then what do you say?  Well its gods will...they will be done.  But if its gods will and hes going to do what he wants to do anyway, why bother praying in the first place?  

 

To apply it to this specific example, why does god need your prayer to begin helping Buzz acheive his enlightment?  Im genuinely asking.  

 

You misunderstand what I'm praying for.  I'm not praying that the Lord would want Buzz or yourself to come to Him for salvation, peace, joy, and life everlasting.  That's a given.  He said He's not willing for anyone to perish.  What I pray for is that Buzz and yourself would truly be willing for the Lord to come into your lives and to make Himself known and real to you both.  And to give your spirit understanding.  He will not violate your free will to do so.  I'm not a Calvinist.  I think people make the mistake with the term the elect.  That's a different rabbit hole altogether!  My prayer for my two daughters who have yet to commit to follow Christ and for Buzz (and you if you don't mind) is very simple.  Father, may the be willing to come to You thru Your Son Jesus Christ.  Give them spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear.  Amen. 

 

If you are willing, He is able. 

 

16 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

ETA: Yes, if I were ever 100% convinced, or really anything close to it for that matter, I'd follow Jesus with unwavering loyalty. Closest I ever got was 55/45, then 50/50, 40/60...im like 5/95 now, on a good day.  Then I read the news and it gets worse.

 

May that day come!  Then you will be like me.  You'll take God at His word when He says:

 

Psalm 37 
34 Wait for the Lord and keep his way,
and he will exalt you to inherit the land.
You will watch when the wicked are destroyed

[skinsmarydu]

My dad was a minister before I was born.  He broke ground for Shingle Creek United Methodist Church in Orlando, FL...I was the first baby Christened there.  He had many charges in VA, the last with the organized church being a 3-point (he delivered 3 services every Sunday and managed the congregations of 3 very rural churches...I played piano at all 3 services every Sunday).  He built his last church on his own, my parents put their entire life savings into it.  His message was always one of love and salvation, absolutely no "hell, fire, and brimstone" stuff.  It was good.  As a matter of fact, the last sermon I heard him preach at that church, he was way into Alzheimer's but still had it goin' on...and it was the "faith without works is dead"...my very least favorite. 

 

My sister is a member of a church that requires a W-2 to make sure members tithe.  I believe I should be a productive member of society first...pay my bills, help others when I can, etc.  (Jesus didn't say, "Get a big pile of nice stuff and a big pile of guns to defend it."  He said, "Sell your goods and help the poor.") 

 

John 3:16 doesn't exclude anyone.  

 

I've stayed out of this conversation for good reason, but there is some middle ground.  Big Bang?  God said so.  That's how I rationalize creation/evolution.  We weren't created walking upright.  We evolved.  Science says so.  There is a way to put the two together without getting all freaked out. 

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I’m not a believer but I’ve generally never had any problem with people who are. That being said, I’ve been feeling very cynical toward religion lately. 

One of the kids I coached down here was in a real bad car accident last week… he has a traumatic brain injury. It’s not good. So I’m checking for updates every day on Facebook and all the people down here are like, “God is so great!! Joey was able to toss a beach ball today!! Thank you Jesus for making this possible!”

 

Like, you’re telling me there is this all powerful being who can wave a magic wand and do whatever he wants but the most he’s gonna do is make it so the kid can toss a beach ball and you guys all fall on your knees?

 

Every little slightly positive thing is all thanks to God. Meanwhile, the kid may be brain damaged for life. Somebody said, “God will heal him in his own time.” And I’m like, “WTF?!?! Why should I not just call you out for your nonsense because you’re very obviously just saying ****?”

 

Seriously, my heart goes out to you.  Until my battle with cancer, I coached for over 30 years.  Those kids become like your own.  I'll never forget Joemel Dennis.  One of the best QB's I ever coached.  In the mid 90s, he had scholarship officers from Tennessee and UNC as a rising Junior.  He was murdered in his front yard for .40 cents and a class ring.  

 

I can't begin to tell you what the Lord is doing in Joey's life.  And with those who love him.  I can tell you that it's okay to call out to the Lord and ask why?!  He already knows how we feel.  It's not a sin to grieve question what God is up to.  After all, David — about whom the Lord said was a man after my own heart — wrote most of the Psalms.  Including Psalm 13 where he wrote:

 

Psalm 13 

1 How long, Lord? Will you forget me forever?
How long will you hide your face from me?
2 How long will I store up anxious concerns within me,
agony in my mind every day?
How long will my enemy dominate me?

3 Consider me and answer, Lord my God.
Restore brightness to my eyes;
otherwise, I will sleep in death.

 

What sets Christianity apart from other religions is the fact that our Savior knows what it means to suffer.  While I don't believe it was necessary that the Lord be brutally scourged and tortured before He was nailed to the cross, the Father permitted it so that we would have a Savior who knows exactly what it feels like to be mocked, betrayed, tortured, and murdered.  The only Deity that has the power to help Joey, in this life or the next, is Jesus Christ.  Not only the power, but the love as well.  

[ThomasRoane]

26 minutes ago, skinsmarydu said:

My dad was a minister before I was born.  He broke ground for Shingle Creek United Methodist Church in Orlando, FL...I was the first baby Christened there.  He had many charges in VA, the last with the organized church being a 3-point (he delivered 3 services every Sunday and managed the congregations of 3 very rural churches...I played piano at all 3 services every Sunday).  He built his last church on his own, my parents put their entire life savings into it.  His message was always one of love and salvation, absolutely no "hell, fire, and brimstone" stuff.  It was good.  As a matter of fact, the last sermon I heard him preach at that church, he was way into Alzheimer's but still had it goin' on...and it was the "faith without works is dead"...my very least favorite. 

 

My sister is a member of a church that requires a W-2 to make sure members tithe.  I believe I should be a productive member of society first...pay my bills, help others when I can, etc.  (Jesus didn't say, "Get a big pile of nice stuff and a big pile of guns to defend it."  He said, "Sell your goods and help the poor.") 

 

Ref tithing, yikes about the W-2!   I do tithe and give sacrificially as well.  Especially to single mother's ministries and those who work against human trafficking.  I had to build up to tithing.  It was like stepping into a pool a little at a time.  What I discovered is that it's not about the fact that God needs our $.  What I discovered is that it is really a heart/trust issue.  Again, God doesn't need my (really His) money.  He owns everything after all!  It's more about am I willing to trust in Him or not?  Even through my battles with cancer and outrageous bills I have been able to tithe and still save money.  Not to mention my 401K isn't looking too shabby.  But it's not really the monetary blessings.  It's the little things.  Peace with enemies.  Specifically my ex wife lol!  It's the comfort of knowing that I can trust my heavenly Father no matter what.  A good job.  Dependable car.  Peaceful sleep!  I don't worry about tomorrow because He has proven over and over and over that He will provide what I need.  (Not always what I want of course!)

 

 

26 minutes ago, skinsmarydu said:

 

John 3:16 doesn't exclude anyone.  

 

I've stayed out of this conversation for good reason, but there is some middle ground.  Big Bang?  God said so.  That's how I rationalize creation/evolution.  We weren't created walking upright.  We evolved.  Science says so.  There is a way to put the two together without getting all freaked out. 

 

There's a really good book about this by Dr. Joshua Swamidass.  It has been peer reviewed and not even the top Atheists can find fault with his conclusions.  Worth checking out if you're humble enough to let God be God and create the world and humans however He wants.  Whether by supernatural intervention and/or by using the very laws of nature that He created.

 

The Genealogical Adam and Eve: The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry: Swamidass, S. Joshua: 9781514003831: Amazon.com: Books

 

Evolutionary science teaches that humans arose as a population, sharing common ancestors with other animals. Most readers of the book of Genesis in the past understood all humans descended from Adam and Eve, a couple specially created by God. These two teachings seem contradictory, but is that necessarily so? In the fractured conversation of human origins, can new insight guide us to solid ground in both science and theology? In The Genealogical Adam and Eve, S. Joshua Swamidass tests a scientific hypothesis: What if the traditional account is somehow true, with the origins of Adam and Eve taking place alongside evolution? Building on well-established but overlooked science, Swamidass explains how it's possible for Adam and Eve to be rightly identified as the ancestors of everyone. His analysis opens up new possibilities for understanding Adam and Eve, consistent both with current scientific consensus and with traditional readings of Scripture. These new possibilities open a conversation about what it means to be human.

 

In this book, Swamidass

• untangles several misunderstandings about the words human and ancestry, in both science and theology
• explains how genetic and genealogical ancestry are different, and how universal genealogical ancestry creates a new opportunity for rapprochement
• explores implications of genealogical ancestry for the theology of the image of God, the fall, and people "outside the garden"

Edited October 2, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

My point is that the Great Isaiah scroll has been scientifically carbon dated at about 150 - 100 BCE.  There are many prophecies about Jesus embedded in Isaiah.  Yet Isaiah 53 is the most powerful.  I hate math but by my calculation, the words that were filled about Christ's crucifixion were at least written down up to 200 years before the crucifixion event.  To say that is just coincidence is to really stretch your faith.  

 

I would not try to lean upon a prophecy that was self-contained in the Bible to witness to an unbeliever.  For example, there is a prophecy by Jeremiah that a King would come and destroy the high places in Ben Himmon early on in his book.  Then later on, in the book of Jeremiah, the prophecy was fulfilled by King Josiah.  As a believer who trusts the Bible, I have no problem with it.  I would never point to that as proof to an unbeliever however.  That would be the classic open book test.  

 

I think science validating Isaiah 53 is pretty powerful.  It was for me.  If I were to tell you today that the WFT would be KC 42 - 17 on October 17th and it happened exactly as I foretold.  Wouldn't you be interested in what I told you would happen to the WFT for the rest of the season?  

 

I don't like the word argument.  You can't argue someone into becoming a Christian.  I was simply giving you the evidence that put me on my journey to trust what is written in the Scriptures.  The Lord met me and since then there has been a cascade of evidence (mostly life experiences) that convinced me without a doubt that the Lord is who He says He is.  That is a personal quest for each person though I think.  Each person has to travel their own road toward Him and salvation.  Or go their own way...

I’m gonna be completely honest here and admit that all this is a bit above my knowledge level for me to be able to give a valuable response.  I’ll have to go do some research to respond.  (Note, that doesn’t mean I’m actually going to do the research but I will if I have time.). But I don’t think I can debate particular scripture until I do.  I will say that I fell that over the course of my life, I have done enough to have my opinion based on research and not just whatever meme I saw.  At this point, I think I’ve done my share.  If Jesus wants my attention, he is going to have to come to me and clearly earn it.

 

3 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I’m not a believer but I’ve generally never had any problem with people who are. That being said, I’ve been feeling very cynical toward religion lately. 

One of the kids I coached down here was in a real bad car accident last week… he has a traumatic brain injury. It’s not good. So I’m checking for updates every day on Facebook and all the people down here are like, “God is so great!! Joey was able to toss a beach ball today!! Thank you Jesus for making this possible!”

 

Like, you’re telling me there is this all powerful being who can wave a magic wand and do whatever he wants but the most he’s gonna do is make it so the kid can toss a beach ball and you guys all fall on your knees?

 

Every little slightly positive thing is all thanks to God. Meanwhile, the kid may be brain damaged for life. Somebody said, “God will heal him in his own time.” And I’m like, “WTF?!?! Why should I not just call you out for your nonsense because you’re very obviously just saying ****?”

I feel this way quite often.

[skinsmarydu]

Bennigan's early 90s was an absolute den of funk when I worked there, and we did all kinds of crazy stuff...like Sharpie your own tray with a slogan.  Mine was "The God I Believe In Is Not Short On Cash."  I don't and probably will never give to a church again, but my charitables add up because I have feels about certain causes that don't get enough help...homelessness and hunger are on the very top of the list.

 

[ThomasRoane]

51 minutes ago, skinsmarydu said:

Bennigan's early 90s was an absolute den of funk when I worked there, and we did all kinds of crazy stuff...like Sharpie your own tray with a slogan.  Mine was "The God I Believe In Is Not Short On Cash."  I don't and probably will never give to a church again, but my charitables add up because I have feels about certain causes that don't get enough help...homelessness and hunger are on the very top of the list.

 

 

Ah, Bennigans.  The Irish restaurant that didn't serve real Irish food lol.  You should see my Irish Feast every year!

 

God loves a cheerful giver.  I certainly am not going to judge you one way or the other.  It's between the person and God.    

 

One thing though that used to bother me about giving.  What if that person take takes that $ and uses it for something it was not intended for?  The more I think about it though.  That's not really my concern.  If my heart was right than God will see and bless.  If someone misuses the funds they will answer to God.  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

 

That said, you'll never catch me sending $ to Creflo Dollar or Joel Osteen! The Lord told us to be wise as serpents, gentle as doves.

[skinsmarydu]

My belated husband's sister is the best, director of the GA Alliance to End Homelessness.  40,000 pairs of socks from Bombas.   I posted that pic last year, cases and cases of socks.

We welcome your help. 

To me, it's about helping the things no one gets a tax deduction for.   Just help people.  It's not that hard. 

[techboy]

9 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

It has been peer reviewed and not even the top Atheists can find fault with his conclusions.  

 

 

[dfitzo53]

I did a little googling about the book out of curiosity and I couldn't find anything that looked like peer-review in the technical sense, nor anything written by "top atheists", whatever that term might mean. It's possible that my googling skills are rusty though.

 

@ThomasRoane can you point towards some of the reviews you're talking about?

[ThomasRoane]

2 hours ago, dfitzo53 said:

I did a little googling about the book out of curiosity and I couldn't find anything that looked like peer-review in the technical sense, nor anything written by "top atheists", whatever that term might mean. It's possible that my googling skills are rusty though.

 

@ThomasRoane can you point towards some of the reviews you're talking about?

 

I'm assuming you mean the Genealogical Adam & Eve book by Swamidass.  

 

I'll keep searching to find the necessary links.  Here's one reference to the peer review but it doesn't point us to the actual review(s).  Swamidass has been quite open about inviting any and everyone to look at his hypothesis and show where he could have gone wrong.  Typically, the peer reviews come out in a paper but often there are conferences as well where a presenter posits their theories and the experts in the crowd poke holes in it.  

 

I do like how the book has it's references on the same page as the reference or quote cited.  I hate when authors make you jump back to the end of the book.  So, he backs up his findings with citations from scientific research himself.  

 

Essentially, Swamidass proposes that a de novo created human was genetically engineered by God and eventually interbred with the homo sapiens that were present.  That does help to fill in some gaps.  Such as, why would Cain be afraid others would kill him after he was banished for killing Abel?  Who would kill him?  Then, who did Cain marry and with what people did he create his own city with?  

 

Then, what was God up to?  Why create a new model?  I know the ancient Jews mentioned that the difference in Adam from all other creatures was the neshama.   Man was created with a spirit.  Think of it as a special transmitter with which God could communicate to man perhaps?  The Science of God is an old but interesting book with some really intriguing ideas.  I would say also that perhaps the de novo created beings possibly had a greater capacity to reason and think.  Possibly explaining why they survived and the Neanderthal did not?  

 

Here's a short video that is a thumbnail sketch of how Swamidass brings coherence between Genesis and Science.  

 

Here's a link to a talk that dives a little deeper into what exactly Swamidass wants us to consider.  Save yourself some trouble and start at the 11 minute mark.  Swamidass is a bit emotional at first.  There are a lot of hard core young earth creationists that are actively campaigning against him.  Even questioning his faith.  He has really put himself out there with his theories.  

Edited October 3, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[ThomasRoane]

@dfitzo53  Check out the John Templeton foundation.  I think this is where all the experts were gathered to review Swamidass' works.

 

The Genealogical Adam and Peaceful Science - John Templeton Foundation