What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

So Jesus telling you that death is the wage you receive from sin you read that then to mean death is neutral. Even though according to the authors death was only known to humanity because of sin. All that to you makes death a neutral event? 

Lemmie tell ya, that's HIGHLY counter intuitive.

 

2. It's fine, you're both wrong.

 

3. So the actual authors didn't know what they were talking about? It couldn't possibly be that you feel this way because it's you who misunderstands them? Nah, after 4,000 years you finally got it worked out.

 

Okay are we talking about the process of dying or death itself?  The process of dying frequently comes with suffering.  Suffering in general is not pleasant and therefore is generally categorized as bad (though, we can talk about the value of suffering too).  In addition, there is the pain of loss of those left living after the person has died.  So in that context, there is "bad" associated with death.  Beyond that, there's no real reason to believe that death itself is not neutral (from a biochemical/scientific stand point or a theological one).   @Larry recently posted, he fears nursing homes.  I agree.  I don't fear death.  I do fear the issues that come with dying.

 

(And that quote about death being the wage of sin is from Romans and so Paul and not Jesus.  And while I like Paul, Paul was also clearly wrong about some things (e.g. he believed he'd be alive for the 2nd coming).  He also talks about death in a positive light in Philippians 1 so if you want to claim that quote in Romans indicates that we should fear death, then you have to also deal with Philippians 1.)

 

The Hebrews believed in a mass exodus of Jewish slaves from Egypt accompanied with the destruction of a large component of the Egyptian army that was preceded by events that would have caused large scale societal upheaval (e.g. the death of the first born of not just every person, but also every animal).

 

I don't.  The larger historical evidence indicates that such an event never happened.  It is likely the Hebrews were wrong.

 

The authors are very likely wrong (as in the creation story too).  Hebrews believed that many diseases were the sins of the parents being delivered onto the children by God.  Not natural phenomenon associated with genetics, viruses, bacteria, etc.

 

I don't.

 

I don't claim to have it all worked out.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident in saying that in totality I've got more right than people that didn't have modern tools we use to understand things.

Edited July 29, 2019 by PeterMP

[AsburySkinsFan]

40 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Okay are we talking about the process of dying or death itself?  The process of dying frequently comes with suffering.  Suffering in general is not pleasant and therefore is generally categorized as bad (though, we can talk about the value of suffering too).  In addition, there is the pain of loss of those left living after the person has died.  So in that context, there is "bad" associated with death.  Beyond that, there's no real reason to believe that death itself is not neutral (from a biochemical/scientific stand point or a theological one).   @Larry recently posted, he fears nursing homes.  I agree.  I don't fear death.  I do fear the issues that come with dying.

 

(And that quote about death being the wage of sin is from Romans and so Paul and not Jesus.  And while I like Paul, Paul was also clearly wrong about some things (e.g. he believed he'd be alive for the 2nd coming).  He also talks about death in a positive light in Philippians 1 so if you want to claim that quote in Romans indicates that we should fear death, then you have to also deal with Philippians 1.)

 

The Hebrews believed in a mass exodus of Jewish slaves from Egypt accompanied with the destruction of a large component of the Egyptian army that was preceded by events that would have caused large scale societal upheaval (e.g. the death of the first born of not just every person, but also every animal).

 

I don't.  The larger historical evidence indicates that such an event never happened.  It is likely the Hebrews were wrong.

 

The authors are very likely wrong (as in the creation story too).  Hebrews believed that many diseases were the sins of the parents being delivered onto the children by God.  Not natural phenomenon associated with genetics, viruses, bacteria, etc.

 

I don't.

 

I don't claim to have it all worked out.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident in saying that in totality I've got more right than people that didn't have modern tools we use to understand things.

Classical Christian Theology:

Prior to sin (man's participation in evil) there was no death.

As part of the punishment for that sin god allowed humanity to be affected by death (NOT just the processes of sickness and age, but the reality of death). Death entered into the world through one man and death was over come by one man. The promises throughout the entire NT are not a happy existence AFTER we die but a resurrection and defeat of death. That's simply what the text says. Augustine in his dualistic theology abandons resurrection, and embraces Heaven as the reward, thus death is a now a mechanism. But Augustine misconstrues the Bible to his own ends. Even a cursory reading of the Bible demonstrates that God never intended for death to affect humanity, and that death is what is prevailed against, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" If you are serious about your faith, I'd encourage you to examine what you believe in light of what's in your texts.

 

As for your red herring arguments about the Hebrews and their vision of Eden/Exodus, you know full well that the point of those stories is not the stories but the teachings that undergird them. Christianity, is after all a Hebraic religion, and if you are going to stand in judgment of those who authored your very own sacred texts, then sir, I might suggest that you are creating your own religion, around a god of your own design. For your religion is nothing without the foundation it was built from, and if they are wrong about their theological principles then what leg have you to stand on? You have literally given yourself permission to remake the religion into whatever suits your interests. That, I do believe is the very definition of idolatry.

 

As for Philippians 1, Paul is faced with his imminent death, he's coming to terms with the fact that he is going to be martyred soon by the Romans. This is a guy who is embracing his reality. Paul is NOT saying that death is a neutral thing or even a good thing. His hope is that through death he will be with Christ, you are seriously twisting his words if you think that Paul is somehow pontificating that death is somehow a benign thing. Death is the scourge of evil.

[mcsluggo]

 

i think people are talking past each other when they talk about death here.... 

 

for a TRUE believer, death is no big thing, because you just move on to the afterlife after death ... so life is just the staging ground before the actual big and important stuff happens.   

 

that is a really big difference ...if you believe it.     in that scenario, allowing death and suffering is more akin to a parent allowing their kids to get beat-up and bruised in a game, and then allowing the kids to stay in a the game knowing there is a good chance that they are going to get really disappointed by losing the game in a really humiliating way (if they behave in the game like you know they MIGHT).

 

again... IF you completely and 100% believe the story of the afterlife.    (and that is a YUGE "if")

 

but.. if you completely believe that set-up, than you can much more easily swallow the idea that it is more important to God to give people free-will, and allow everyone to have to deal with the consequences of people's free-will actions, and then have God dry the tears of the people that are hurt AFTER they are "dead"... and at that point God can basically ask people that exercised their free-will if they learned anything from the overall experience?  

 

 

but... if you can't shake the feeling (fear, or otherwise) that THIS life is IT, your one shot at living.... then  ^^^ THAT ^^^  sounds like complete cruelty, and anyone trying to sell it is a complete asshole: swindling people, and denigrating the one true precious thing... life. 

 

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

26 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

i think people are talking past each other when they talk about death here.... 

 

for a TRUE believer, death is no big thing, because you just move on to the afterlife after death ... so life is just the staging ground before the actual big and important stuff happens.   

 

that is a really big difference ...if you believe it.     in that scenario, allowing death and suffering is more akin to a parent allowing their kids to get beat-up and bruised in a game, and then allowing the kids to stay in a the game knowing there is a good chance that they are going to get really disappointed by losing the game in a really humiliating way (if they behave in the game like you know they MIGHT).

 

again... IF you completely and 100% believe the story of the afterlife.    (and that is a YUGE "if")

 

And what I'm saying is that what you have described is NOT what the Bible teaches. Life is not the prepwork, life is the point of it all. God creates life, sin ****s it up, God sends his son to restore life. Death is the enemy. What is being taught in modern Evangelical churches is FAR from that. Which is my whole point, and to push the point further it's what makes the whole thing even MORE unconvincing. That after thousands of years they STILL can't get it right. Oh I'm sure they will say they have, but a brief reflection of their stated beliefs about things like death and what their Bible actually says about death will reveal two very different ways of thinking. 

But hey no biggie it's just about Jezus the rest don't matter...all you got to do is tell the ghost in the sky you're sorry for the **** you do each day and when you die he'll treat you like the champion you know you are! 

[PeterMP]

4 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Classical Christian Theology:

Prior to sin (man's participation in evil) there was no death.

As part of the punishment for that sin god allowed humanity to be affected by death (NOT just the processes of sickness and age, but the reality of death). Death entered into the world through one man and death was over come by one man. The promises throughout the entire NT are not a happy existence AFTER we die but a resurrection and defeat of death. That's simply what the text says. Augustine in his dualistic theology abandons resurrection, and embraces Heaven as the reward, thus death is a now a mechanism. But Augustine misconstrues the Bible to his own ends. Even a cursory reading of the Bible demonstrates that God never intended for death to affect humanity, and that death is what is prevailed against, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" If you are serious about your faith, I'd encourage you to examine what you believe in light of what's in your texts.

 

As for your red herring arguments about the Hebrews and their vision of Eden/Exodus, you know full well that the point of those stories is not the stories but the teachings that undergird them. Christianity, is after all a Hebraic religion, and if you are going to stand in judgment of those who authored your very own sacred texts, then sir, I might suggest that you are creating your own religion, around a god of your own design. For your religion is nothing without the foundation it was built from, and if they are wrong about their theological principles then what leg have you to stand on? You have literally given yourself permission to remake the religion into whatever suits your interests. That, I do believe is the very definition of idolatry.

 

As for Philippians 1, Paul is faced with his imminent death, he's coming to terms with the fact that he is going to be martyred soon by the Romans. This is a guy who is embracing his reality. Paul is NOT saying that death is a neutral thing or even a good thing. His hope is that through death he will be with Christ, you are seriously twisting his words if you think that Paul is somehow pontificating that death is somehow a benign thing. Death is the scourge of evil.

 

I didn't say that God didn't intend for humans to not die and neither did Augustine, but you have over simplified.  Before sin, there wasn't just no death.  There does not appear to be any suffering at all.  You've ignored all suffering and placed the only importance on death.  There isn't really any support for that in the Bible.  We suffer (and die) because sin has separated us from God.

 

(I will say that isn't death that is to be over come, but sin.  I'd also not claim to know whether our life was supposed to eternal in the context of this Universe.  There's so much not true in the Creation stories it is hard to piece out what (if anything) is relevant.

 

Jesus came and died for our sins.  Through that, we have eternal life.  The sin is the key component.  Death is just an offshoot.  In life and dying, we are separated from God through sin.)

 

There is no evidence that the Hebrews didn't (and conservative Jews today don't) take Exodus literally.

 

If you want to claim that I'm creating my own religion, that's fine.  What I'd say is you are arguing for a underpinning that isn't actually supported by known facts or the Bible itself because you appear to be overly tied to trying to derive information from things don't necessarily contain any easily identified useful information.

 

Here's what Paul says:

 

" For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. ²² If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! ²³ I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; ²⁴ but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

 

Paul is living with suffering (he's being kept in prison in chains apparently (though the true nature of imprisonment is a little odd as he apparently has the resources and means to write letters and have them delivered)) and death would be better for him.  But for them (the people he's writing to), it is important that he stays alive.

 

There's no sense that he fears death for the sake of death and with respect to himself, death and being with Christ (in heaven) would be better.  Dying is gaining.

 

That's not a man afraid of death itself.

 

If you imagine some future where some people have found away to live forever, that doesn't invalidate Christianity.  The consequence of sin is separation from God and part of that is death (and dying).  The separation from God brings and causes suffering.

 

People that can't die don't escape the consequence of sin.  They are stuck living with it forever.

Edited July 29, 2019 by PeterMP

[AsburySkinsFan]

Yup, typical Evangelical dichotomy between sin/death as if the two aren't intimately connected. 

 

Oh, and don't think I ever said Paul fears death, I said that he's accepted his imminent death. This might be difficult but those are two different things. And just because Paul has accepted his upcoming death does NOT mean he no longer views death as a consequence of sin. You are sterilizing death which is common in Evangelical circles because you ignore what the resurrection ACTUALLY is and you reinterpret "resurrection" to mean Heaven because you don't get that actual bodily resurrection of the faithful is the promise of the Bible...not an eternity in "heaven". So you're fine to believe what you choose, it's just not Christianity. It's another religion with Jesus as a hood ornament. 

[Renegade7]

19 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I dunno but I feel like there is a good (funny) backstory to this exchange that I'd like to hear.

When you're in a car for 19 hours with someone, all kinds of weird conversations come up.  They told me even though I believed Christ died for our sins to be forgiven and hes the son of God that's not good enough, Satan did too, that's why he was messing with him so hard when he was in the desert by himself.  I'm still processing that.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Yup, typical Evangelical dichotomy between sin/death as if the two aren't intimately connected. 

 

Oh, and don't think I ever said Paul fears death, I said that he's accepted his imminent death. This might be difficult but those are two different things. And just because Paul has accepted his upcoming death does NOT mean he no longer views death as a consequence of sin. You are sterilizing death which is common in Evangelical circles because you ignore what the resurrection ACTUALLY is and you reinterpret "resurrection" to mean Heaven because you don't get that actual bodily resurrection of the faithful is the promise of the Bible...not an eternity in "heaven". So you're fine to believe what you choose, it's just not Christianity. It's another religion with Jesus as a hood ornament. 

 

Any and all suffering, including that which precedes death for the dying in many cases and follows death for the living, is connected to sin. 

 

There is no real reason to believe the actual event of death itself includes suffering.

 

It wasn't that he accepted his death; he'd rather die if just considering himself.  He gains via death.  If that isn't consistent with my previous posts, I don't know what is.

 

Jesus clearly speaks to after death continuing in heaven (his father's house) as a place to celebrate being (before the 2nd coming) and without any bodily resurrection and that's consistent with what Paul says.  Paul will depart and be with Christ.

 

What do you think happen when we die?

 

(or maybe better what did you, when you were a Christian, think happened when we died?)

Edited July 29, 2019 by PeterMP

[AsburySkinsFan]

Never said that suffering wasn't connected to sin, you are saying that I said that. 

 

The timetable of what happens immediately after we die is ambiguous at best. You want to attribute a timeline to a god who obviously rejects timelines (considering he transcends time). In your mind Jesus goes to prepare you a place so you have a place to hang out after you die while you wait for his return. At best the clearest image is the throne-room in Revelation but lets not pretend we can do much with literal interpretations in Revelation. However, you have Abraham who believed he would go to the place of the dead, Sheol, where ALL the dead went.

 

What do I believe happens when you die? Your relatives will spend an inordinate amount of money on a funeral so your body will be preserved in a VERY comfortable box that you will never enjoy all because they feel guilty. They'll exchange casseroles and hugs and try to think of something profound to before they all start fighting over the ****ing will. Meanwhile, you'll be rotting...slowly because of the juice they pump into your corpse because our culture cannot accept death as a natural part of life. Or you'll be on a mantle in a jar. 

 

What did I believe before? At first I believed in heaven because, that's what my preacher believed, and I believed in Hell because God needs to damn people who aren't me. Then I dropped that **** because it doesn't make any sense. Then I settled in on basic resurrection because that's what the book actually says. Then I woke up one day and never looked back.

[AsburySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

When you're in a car for 19 hours with someone, all kinds of weird conversations come up.  They told me even though I believed Christ died for our sins to be forgiven and hes the son of God that's not good enough, Satan did too, that's why he was messing with him so hard when he was in the desert by himself.  I'm still processing that.

So what more do they think you need?

[PeterMP]

9 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Never said that suffering wasn't connected to sin, you are saying that I said that. 

 

The timetable of what happens immediately after we die is ambiguous at best. You want to attribute a timeline to a god who obviously rejects timelines (considering he transcends time). In your mind Jesus goes to prepare you a place so you have a place to hang out after you die while you wait for his return. At best the clearest image is the throne-room in Revelation but lets not pretend we can do much with literal interpretations in Revelation. However, you have Abraham who believed he would go to the place of the dead, Sheol, where ALL the dead went.

 

What did I believe before? At first I believed in heaven because, that's what my preacher believed, and I believed in Hell because God needs to damn people who aren't me. Then I dropped that **** because it doesn't make any sense. Then I settled in on basic resurrection because that's what the book actually says. Then I woke up one day and never looked back.

 

I actually never said you said it.  I said your view was an over simplification where choose to focus on the act of death and not overall suffering.

 

Just because God transcends time, doesn't mean he doesn't understand time and have a timeline (also, I'm not sure that we won't transcend time after we die.  Does time have meaning after you die?  So I'm not really asking for a timeline.  If the judgement process takes 1,000 years, but time is meaningless to us, that doesn't seem to mean death will be a negative experience.).

 

Paul clearly believes upon death he will join Christ and there are other places in the Bible where Jesus at least tells some, they will join him.

 

"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also”"

 

"Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.""

 

etc.

 

Without having to resort to making sense of Revelation.

 

Any idea that death in of to itself is something that we should fear or is bad (not in the moral sense, but as in something to be avoided or unpleasant) isn't founded in the Bible.

[AsburySkinsFan]

So you're gonna proof text one sentence Jesus said from the cross?

 Ok, two can play that game;

2 Peter 3:8
"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." 

 

See, more ****ing Rorschach blots.

 

Going to prepare a place for you gives ZERO indication about when you'll take possession of your new condo.

 

And I don't focus on the suffering because that's a given. You were the one who said theists don't see death negatively, even while death goes hand in hand with sin. To not see it negatively is to divorce what shares DNA.

Edited July 30, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan

[CousinsCowgirl84]

12 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Oh so now I'm Ted Bundy. Gotcha. Why not engage your brain and ask a question before posting some bull**** strawman next time? Some who aren't failing in their basic logic centers would recognize that there is a difference in seeing death as neutral and seeing people as valueless objects as a sociopath,

 

If you value people you must value their life. You can’t see their death as “a good thing” or “neutral” if you value ones life. 

 

It would be like saying you value your car but are OK with the fact that someone stole it and drove it into a river.

 

You are super defensive about it.... maybe you’re more like manson?

 

Quote

The fact that you don't know how to do it does not make it a miracle.

 

Well, yeah, but lots of things are miracles though....

Edited July 30, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84

[AsburySkinsFan]

6 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

If you value people you must value their life. You can’t see their death as “a good thing” or “neutral” if you value there life. 

 

It would be like saying you value your car but are OK with the fact that someone stole it and drove it into a river.

 

You are super defensive about it.... maybe your more like manson?

 

 

Well, yeah, but lots of things are miracles though....

To your first point:

My step mother's life was torn apart by crippling anxiety and depression. She took her life to end the pain she endured daily. **** you if you don't think an end to her pain was a good thing.

 

To your second...name some miracles then, let's see if they hold up to scrutiny. The previous poster (who ran away)  claimed that miracles are to convince an unbelieving people of the power of god. So surely these miracles will be so plentiful and unexplainable as to drop the scales from my blinded eyes.

Edited July 30, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

To your first point:

My step mother's life was torn apart by crippling anxiety and depression. She took her life to end the pain she endured daily. **** you if you don't think an end to her pain was a good thing.

 

Sorry for you, but one exception the rule doesn’t make the exception a rule. 

 

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

To your second...name some miracles then, let's see if they hold up to scrutiny.

 

I didn’t get into a car crash on the way home today! So there’s that. #smallmiracles

[AsburySkinsFan]

12 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

Sorry for you, but one exception the rule doesn’t make the exception a rule. 

 

 

One exception doesn't make a rule but it is sufficient to disprove the absolute statement you wrote below. You said I "can't", I proved to you that I can, and do. Therefore you absolute statement is false.

 

21 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

If you value people you must value their life. You can’t see their death as “a good thing” or “neutral” if you value ones life. 

 

15 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

I didn’t get into a car crash on the way home today! So there’s that. #smallmiracles

If that's what you consider a miracle...then thank you because you've proven my point that there is no such thing.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

4 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

One exception doesn't make a rule but it is sufficient to disprove the absolute statement you wrote below. You said I "can't", I proved to you that I can, and do. Therefore you absolute statement is false.

 

 

 

You can’t value their/her life. You made it clear she/you valued her escape from pain more than you valued her life. 

 

Thats her choice, not saying it’s not. But it is clear she didn’t value her life.

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84

[AsburySkinsFan]

5 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

You can’t value their/her life. You made it clear she/you valued her death (and freedom from pain) over her life.

 

Are you ****ing serious? I didn't value my step mother's life if I see her death as a positive!

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Good night, but you need to drop this because your logic is stupid.

Edited July 30, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan

[HOF44]

If you’re a devout Christian isn’t death what you’ve been waiting for all your life?? Heaven sounds pretty sweet to me.   And shouldn’t everyone be happy you are there now??

[AsburySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, HOF44 said:

If you’re a devout Christian isn’t death what you’ve been waiting for all your life?? Heaven sounds pretty sweet to me.   And shouldn’t everyone be happy you are there now??

That's the point I've been trying to make the whole time. What you describe is escapism, and not part of what the Bible seems to teach. Not only that but nearly everything you've been taught about Heaven does not come from the Bible. A devout Christian understands that LIFE is the gift of god, which is why the sting of death has been removed because the resurrection is there to undo death. 

See that's the whole point of all of it, according to the Bible god is working to restore creation back to its original state, Eden, not in "heaven" but here on earth, with the faithful rewarded with eternal.....wait for it.....

LIFE.

Once heaven is seen as the goal escapism begins and death is viewed as the doorway, and not the negative consequence of sin.

Edited July 30, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan

[DCSaints_fan]

I like to focus on this life, as its the only one I'm sure I'll have

[AsburySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, DCSaints_fan said:

I like to focus on this life, as its the only one I'm sure I'll have

Yup.

I spent too many years denying myself the joys and pleasures of life. I watch those around me living afraid of disappointing the sky ghost, and I see myself in them. Looking down in judgment upon those things they could enjoy, all to do what? Sorry, but attending Promise Keepers and men's study groups just ain't doing it for me. You have but one life to live and you will only regret those things you didn't do.

Live life to the fullest!

[PeterMP]

deleted

Edited July 30, 2019 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

22 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

So what more do they think you need?

 

To keep this short, that question misses the point.  I've been trying to think of what the person considered a requirement versus explaining what wasnt, and it all jus sound like their own interpretation that they got from their own religious path and fellow circle of believers. 

 

Saying the primary requirement for being a Christian isnt good enough is simply a means to elevate on a denomination by denomination basis what is a requirement.  I'm sure there are some Mormons that think Baptists dont go far enough and Jehovahs Witnesses that think they're both amatures.  

[PleaseBlitz]

18 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Yup.

I spent too many years denying myself the joys and pleasures of life. I watch those around me living afraid of disappointing the sky ghost, and I see myself in them. Looking down in judgment upon those things they could enjoy, all to do what? Sorry, but attending Promise Keepers and men's study groups just ain't doing it for me. You have but one life to live and you will only regret those things you didn't do.

Live life to the fullest!

 

Asbury, circa 2019: