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Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

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23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That's why he ran for 355 yards last year, 2 years before that for almost 500 yards -- Reid doesn't like to see the dude running?  Lets agree to disagree.  The RO-RPO has a QB run component inherent in the play as an option so yeah there was design in those plays.  The dude didn't just scramble on the fly for 500 yards.  

 

The fake jet sweeps have been a part of every game as far as I noticed -- heck they even got the TE involved in it last week.   I don't think I've seen yet Reed in the backfield as KC would do at times with Kelce where he'd be lined up like a RB in the I.

 

But as a defense of Alex, I think you need MORE of this.  And yes I do think you have to showcase his wheels.  

 

If that's what they wanted in a QB what's with the Jay criticism and the fact that beat guys said they are very frustrated behind the scenes?  

 

Reid primarily used Smith on designed runs inside the 10 yard line as part of red zone package.  

 

Yes, most of those yards came on scramble plays. Low percentage were related to designed QB runs. I thought this was a known thing. 

 

Im basing this off of watching Smith rushing highlights, game against Skins, and casually watching over the years. Not sure if a stat is out there to show yardage gained from designed QB runs versus scrambles. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wouldn’t say that he’s ever happy to call folks out.  Like a lot of coaches, you really have to dig in to find anything.  Whenever he’s asked about specific players, he almost always goes to “well, everybody...”. He actually blamed the wind once for Kirk’s poor accuracy.

 

True he did do that lol

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18 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

Again, those if's will become when-he-did's, and then what are people going to hang their hats on?

Good ole stand-bys like our irritation with Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder? I mean that's the go to.

 

On that note, who'd have thunk that the "I hate Bruce Allen" thread would fall completely off the first page!? Now, we still hate Bruce Allen and think he's done a terrible job for seven years, but suddenly, his last two drafts look pretty good, the defense is killing it and we see depth on the team. We're still lacking stars (though it's possible that we may be seeing the beginning of some on the D Line and the reinvention of one at running back), but for three weeks almost no one has burned the Front Office in effigy.

 

That's gotta be a record!!!

 

Right now, I understand the scorn some Redskins fans feel toward Kirk. It turns out he jilted us. We're the dumpees. We get to feel bitter. Sure, Bruce was an abusive boyfriend and no one really begrudges Cousins escaping, but at the same time for two years... Kirk lied to us fans about his interest in being a part of this team. We loved him and were ready to love him forever. He planned to bail even as he was whispering sweet nothings in our ear. 

 

I think that's why some feel differently about him than they do other free agent departures. Kirk never negotiated in good faith. I accept the notion to a degree that Allen didn't either, but while Allen low-balled, that's kind of normal for an initial offer. The idea is to counter and negotiate. I still put most of the blame on Bruce, but Kirk did play a role.

 

OTOH, if it turns out that the Redskins are a good team without Kirk and that probably means a playoff team (something that Kirk accomplished once) then I think most of the animosity goes away. Mind you, there are still Redskins fans who Deion Sanders for what he did to us so who knows how long the grudge lasts.

Edited by Burgold

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17 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

Again, those if's will become when-he-did's, and then what are people going to hang their hats on?

Cousins has lost 5 fumbles, Alex Smith has lost one.  Quite the disparity in lost fumbles for me to play the what if game ?‍♂️

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3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

 We loved him and were ready to love him forever. 

Short memory.

 

Every pass Kirk threw was micro analyzed, and by analyzed, I mean criticized.  By a very vocal contingent of the fanbase. Every game, win lose or tie.  He was a choker who never gets it done and always blows the game.

 

All this week to week griping about QB play didn’t start this season.

 

 

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The truly sad part is that unless Smith turns it around quickly.. Skins got screwed, just the way they thought they would with the Cousins deal.

 

With Cousins - FO never thought he was that good and kept wanting to see more before signing him to a big deal. To a point where they waited too long and he got too good to sign to a reasonable team deal.

After what happened w Cousins.. FO decided not the make the same mistake of waiting and seeing so...

 

They traded for Alex and without seeing him in Grudens' system signed him to a big deal right away.. while it looks like the 'Cousins wait and see approach' might have been the more prudent option.

The point is that the level of production we are getting from Smith could have been gotten from a number of other FA QB options on a much better deal that would not preclude Skins from exploring QB options in FA or draft next year.

 

 

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1 minute ago, TysonM said:

Mike Freeman just savaged Cousins in an article today, using criticisms that we've all already heard about him.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2803271-vikings-qb-kirk-cousins-already-looking-like-an-84-million-flop

Premature to make any conclusive statements about Cousins and the Vikes. He has been mostly good. The monkey on Kirk's back (if he has one) is the reputation that he folds in big moments/big games. He certainly makes throws that create excitement and opportunity for the O. What I don't really understand is why running backs and defenses seem to let him down as they do. It's really weird. The Vikings had an amazing D and run game last year and now their D looks like the 2017 Redskins. I know Kirk can't be responsible for that, but... it's really weird.

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53 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Low percentage were related to designed QB runs. I thought this was a known thing. 

 

How is that the case with an RPO-RO heavy driven offense?  

 

Every QB including RG3 with wheels gains runs via scrambles.  Most of these QBs bigger runs are often via scrambles because they happen when things break down and there is a big unexpected gap ala the big RG3 run against Minny.   So its of course part of the soup.  But most of those same QBs have designed runs and run RO and RPO to exploit their speed.  The RO in particular without the QB running much?  And just by chance his running numbers were big?  And by chance his coaches were talking about him running more in their new RPO-RO more driven scheme -- but it really wasn't about that but Alex deciding later in this career to just scramble more?

 

As for what the breakdown is for scrambles or designed runs.  Got no idea.  But the idea that KC didn't incorporate Alex's legs as part of their scheme much -- that would defy really the lore about what Andy Reid did to arguably revive his career.  If you want to argue that running QBs are often more about the threat of running than actually running -- that's often true.  But running QBs do flash their wheels from time to time to show that the threat of the QB to take off is a real danger that a defense has to account for.

 

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/09/nfl-andy-reid-bill-belichick-patriots-chiefs-recap

Critics of the option love to bring up the Robert Griffins and Colin Kaepernicks while ignoring success stories like Cam Newton, Russell Wilson and even Alex Smith. Like any other offense, systems that embrace these college concepts work better with better personnel. What a novel concept!

The same goes for any other scheme, but you won’t hear anyone call the West Coast offense a gimmick system because Chris Simms was terrible under Jon Gruden in Tampa Bay.

The read option is still going strong in the NFL. The Chiefs used it and other concepts that aren’t supposed to work in the NFL to hang 537 yards on the Patriots defense.

 

https://rpoclinic.com/2017/11/02/the-kansas-city-chiefs-rpo-offense/

Andy Reid is taking the multi-talented athletes on his roster and using them to attack NFL defenses like no one has seen before.  With jack-of-all-trades burners like Tyreek Hill and De’Anthony Thomas, a mismatch nightmare in Travis Kelce, a banger running back in Kareem Hunt, and a mobile, athletic QB who can run and pass, the spread RPO game is ideally suited for the Chiefs roster.

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/278158/from-k-c-to-d-c-inside-alex-smiths-nfl-survivor-story

Smith hasn’t become a more consistent passer because of his legs, but he has become a more dangerous quarterback. His first NFL head coach, Mike Nolan, wishes he and his staff had incorporated Smith more in the running game early in his career.

“It would have set him apart as a rookie had he done that, and the beginning of his career would be looked at completely different,” Nolan said. “That’s one of our biggest mistakes. No one in the league was doing it, but that doesn’t make it OK, but had we been on the cutting edge as people were with Cam [Newton]and Russell [Wilson]. ... That’s how Alex should have been used. Had that happened, his start would have been different.”

When Jim Harbaugh’s staff took over in San Francisco in 2011, Smith benefited. However, it took Smith’s trade to Kansas City to tap into all that he could do. With San Francisco, Smith averaged 2.7 runs per game and 3.59 yards per carry. In his five years with the Chiefs, Smith averaged 4.2 runs per game and 5.27 yards per attempt.

His passing numbers improved as well. He threw for 81 touchdowns and 63 interceptions with the 49ers; he tossed 102 touchdowns to 33 picks for the Chiefs.

“I went through a lot of what he did in college and pulled out similar things and then we talked and all that experience with different offenses, we pulled out things he was comfortable with and built around it,” Reid said. “The more he grew in the offense, the more things he liked that we did. He felt comfortable. The RPO [run-pass option], that’s all stuff he did in college.”

Smith ran a combined 286 times in three seasons at Utah.

“What sets him above those other guys is that he stresses you and that’s something a lot of game managers can’t do,” Nolan said. “They dink and dunk to everyone, but they don’t have the added dimension Alex does. That’s a huge advantage. All the other stuff sounds good, but when you get down to it and you’re trying to keep Alex from beating you, he has an added dimension to his game.”

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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44 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Good ole stand-bys like our irritation with Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder? I mean that's the go to.

 

On that note, who'd have thunk that the "I hate Bruce Allen" thread would fall completely off the first page!? Now, we still hate Bruce Allen and think he's done a terrible job for seven years, but suddenly, his last two drafts look pretty good, the defense is killing it and we see depth on the team. We're still lacking stars (though it's possible that we may be seeing the beginning of some on the D Line and the reinvention of one at running back), but for three weeks almost no one has burned the Front Office in effigy.

 

 

the Bruce thread has been around a long time.  It's gotten bumped down to page 2 or 3 many times over the course of time especially after a game where we got a lots of new threads, it was on page 1 if I recall just a few days ago.  And if you go through the posts, you'd see many don't give him credit or blame for any draft.  He's not the dude making the picks.   The issues with Bruce for most of us at least isn't that he hired Kyle Smith and we don't like him and what he does with college drafting -- we've praised that part of the operation many times.  It's all the other stuff. ?

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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29 minutes ago, TysonM said:

Mike Freeman just savaged Cousins in an article today, using criticisms that we've all already heard about him.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2803271-vikings-qb-kirk-cousins-already-looking-like-an-84-million-flop

 

OK that article was completely unfair and appears to have been written by a Kirk hating message board poster.  Kirk has played very well for the Vikings. Putting the team records entirely on the QB while ignoring all the other factors that go into a win/loss is idiotic. 

 

And in 2 years he will still be playing well where the Redskins will have another Mark Brunell and a plan to spend a high pick, a pick that could be used to fill other needs, in the NFL draft in attempt to find a QB that will be better than Cousins. The same draft that produced countless busts including Griffin, Campbell, Ramsey, Shuler and others. 

Edited by Darrell Green Fan
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After the Saints game I was very negative about Alex Smith and said that he should be replaced with McCoy. Three wins later, I've mellowed somewhat and McCoy isn't in my thoughts.

 

The main thing is, we've had the lead in the last three games, Smith hasn't had to bring us back from the brink and his conservative style hasn't ****ed anything up and blown it for us.  Now Smith has to take some credit for getting us the lead to start with, although it's mainly down to the running of AP and a wonderfully stingy defense.  As long as we have a lead and don't need to make big plays on offense then I'm OK with Alex at QB. Although I do find it quite frustrating and a bit boring, we're winning and that's all that matters.

 

The problems will start again if/when we fall behind, especially if it's by two scores in the 4th quarter. I don't know what the word is to describe exactly what it is that Alex hasn't got, but he hasn't got it. I just don't see him moving the offense quickly up the field to score twice at the end of a game. If we fall behind by two scores then I think we lose.

 

I can't describe how happy I am with 5-2, beating the cowboys and giants, top of the pile in the division. It's so much more than I expected. If the team can carry on keeping us in games, keeping us in front, then Alex just might majestically dink-and-dunk us all the way to the playoffs. If we fall behind in a few games then all he'll do is pathetically dink-and-dunk us to the final whistle and a loss.

 

I'm still hoping that he can loosen up a bit and sort out his accuracy because we are a good team at the moment, if the QB play could only match the rest of the team then we really could be on the verge of something special.

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11 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

OK that article was completely unfair and appears to have been written by a Kirk hating message board poster.  Kirk has played very well for the Vikings. Putting the team records entirely on the QB while ignoring all the other factors that go into a win/loss is idiotic. 

 

And in 2 years he will still be playing well where the Redskins will have another Mark Brunell and a plan to spend a high pick, a pick that could be used to fill other needs, in the NFL draft in attempt to find a QB that will be better than Cousins. The same draft that produced countless busts including Griffin, Campbell, Ramsey, Shuler and others. 

And crying over a QB who looks to be the exact same as he was with us, with a team that EVERYBODY thought was better than ours, who now has a worse record halfway through the season is just as idiotic. Alex not being great doesn't necessarily mean we screwed up by not resigning Kirk. If anything it's justifying it. Just wait till Cousins cap hits balloon after this year and guys like Thielen/Waynes etc. need new contracts. That team will suffer the same fate as Seattle/Baltimore before you know it, but at least with those teams they already got their teams rings.

 

We need to turn our attention toward the draft for a QB while Smith holds down the fort. Your best shot to win multiple SBs is with a QB on a rookie contract anyway.

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1 minute ago, London Kev said:

After the Saints game I was very negative about Alex Smith and said that he should be replaced with McCoy. Three wins later, I've mellowed somewhat and McCoy isn't in my thoughts.

 

 

I am not a McCoy guy so I am not clamoring for him.  I'd let Alex see if he can sort this out with Jay.  The next three games are really interesting -- 3 teams who are more about their passing game especially Atlanta.  Giants put up yards in the air but a lot of that is screens to Barkley.   I think Atlanta is a good test to see if the New Orleans game was an anomaly and they can either stick to this style to defeat a pass happy team or pass more and keep up.  

 

Like you, I love beating Dallas and Ny Giants back to back.  I think they were big games for Jay in particular.

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I heard BMitch on a bit of a rant today, expecting more out of Alex and the WRs.  Using Goff with 2 new offenses and new WRs as evidence that changes shouldn't hold a passing game back.  Goff and his guys clicking in game 1. His theme was that us passionate fans are allowed to think players need to be held accountable, or some **** like that.

 

Interesting to see Kirk with his lead back out injured racking up lots of yards. Vikes have a decent D.

Edited by RandyHolt
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4 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

We need to turn our attention toward the draft for a QB while Smith holds down the fort. Your best shot to win multiple SBs is with a QB on a rookie contract anyway.

 

I disagree with your first point in the post but I agree with the 2nd -- a QB with a rookie contract is the easiest formula.  Granted its not easy to pick right but if you do, wow. 

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We won't draft a QB in round 1 and the success rates on QBs taken after that are extremely small. I don't think we go after a QB in the draft until 2020 at the absolute earliest.

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42 minutes ago, oraphus said:

They traded for Alex and without seeing him in Grudens' system signed him to a big deal right away.. while it looks like the 'Cousins wait and see approach' might have been the more prudent option.

The point is that the level of production we are getting from Smith could have been gotten from a number of other FA QB options on a much better deal that would not preclude Skins from exploring QB options in FA or draft next year.

 

This is important. It’s one thing (one terrible, tragic thing) to let a franchise Qb walk because you misevaluated their talent and lowballed them. 

 

We werent content with just that colossal mistake, we had to magnify it by 10 by signing the literal definition of a no-threat game manager to a long term $80mil contract when any number of cheaper free agent or even rookie options could have provided us with this garbage production and play. 

 

With a different free agent QB, we aren’t locked in and could build/draft a QB for the future and with a rookie we would at least have exciting potential we could watch grow. Smith provides none of that while putting an massive cap on our ceiling, future, and financial flexibility

 

he is an anchor around this team’s future

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6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We won't draft a QB in round 1 and the success rates on QBs taken after that are extremely small. I don't think we go after a QB in the draft until 2020 at the absolute earliest.

 

Probably so.  Doesn't mean I agree with it.   Alex has in effect a three year contract.  Reading about why KC made the move for Mahomes -- their scouts loved the guy and thought he was special.  IMO you take the same approach, if you love a guy chase him within reason.  If not, don't.

 

Even though I do think Alex has been the #1 problem with the passing offense thus far.  I don't see it as hopeless.  And I am in the school of giving him more weapons.  I like Tate.  I like D. Jax.  I'd make a move.   

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

This is important. It’s one thing (one terrible, tragic thing) to let a franchise Qb walk because you misevaluated their talent and lowballed them. 

 

We werent content with just that colossal mistake, we had to magnify it by 10 by signing the literal definition of a no-threat game manager to a long term $80mil contract when any number of cheaper free agent or even rookie options could have provided us with this garbage production and play. 

 

With a different free agent QB, we aren’t locked in and could build/draft a QB for the future and with a rookie we would at least have exciting potential we could watch grow. Smith provides none of that while putting an massive cap on our ceiling, future, and financial flexibility

 

he is an anchor around this team’s future

Disagree because one, it's too soon to say that. Plenty of posters have pointed out that Kirk was less than ideal in this same offense his first 7-8 games. But second, Alex is still a competent QB. And competent QBs still hold plenty of trade value. See Tyrod Taylor netting a third. If we really wanted to move on from Smith, we could trade him for a second or third round pick tomorrow.

 

But I fully realize I'm probably engaging with somebody who thought Kirk Cousins was the golden franchise QB who we wronged so badly and let get away. I just never was sold Kirk was the guy for this franchise, despite bulk numbers on the surface telling you he was. So I expect to agree to disagree. And I can't lie, it is so ironic that Kirk left for the more complete team...that ended up being not as good as the one he just left. Weird huh?

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5 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

 

But I fully realize I'm probably engaging with somebody who thought Kirk Cousins was the golden franchise QB who we wronged so badly and let get away. I just never was sold Kirk was the guy for this franchise, despite bulk numbers on the surface telling you he was. So I expect to agree to disagree. And I can't lie, it is so ironic that Kirk left for the more complete team...that ended up being not as good as the one he just left. Weird huh?

I still can't get over the idea that the unforgivable insult was an opening contract offer that would have made Kirk the fifth highest paid QB in the league. That was the first offer he and his agent walked away from and pretty much refused to counter after Kirk had a pretty bad opening eight games followed by a quite good final eight games.

 

Yeah, the Redskins were hedging their bet somewhat, but it wasn't a bad opening offer. 

 

On topic: I do worry that they jumped the gun by signing Alex to a long term deal immediately. I get why they did that, but I still am not sure it was wise especially because part of it was a PR stunt to show that the front office would sign a QB to a big contract and it was all Kirk's fault that nothing ever got done.

Edited by Burgold
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1 minute ago, Burgold said:

I still can't get over the idea that the unforgivable insult was an opening contract offer that would have made Kirk the fifth highest paid QB in the league. That was the first offer he and his agent walked away from and pretty much refused to counter after Kirk had a pretty bad opening eight games followed by a quite good final eight games.

 

Yeah, the Redskins were hedging their bet somewhat, but it wasn't a bad opening offer. 

Oh boy you'll get crucified for that.

 

But yes, for a QB who had shown a propensity to make critical mistakes at critical moments, who would fade down the stretch when playoffs were on the line, should not have been so offended by "lowball initial offers." And only lowball in the context that he and his agent could just sit on the tag and make even more the following year on the tag. He and his agent did something no one had really done in the past, which is actually embrace the tag. And that was because the tag value had spiked right when all of this was happening, and was a palatable option because regardless of injury/performance he was set for life.

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2 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Oh boy you'll get crucified for that.

I'm getting used to it. I'm also chastising myself. I shouldn't be talking about Kirk so much in Fed Ex Field. He's no longer a Redskin and even thought the conversation and comparisons make sense he's a bad guy now. Conversation ought to be limited to Around the NFL.

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12 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Alex is still a competent QB. And competent QBs still hold plenty of trade value. See Tyrod Taylor netting a third. If we really wanted to move on from Smith, we could trade him for a second or third round pick tomorrow.

 

No one is going to give up a 2nd or 3rd for Smith when he is playing like its 1970.. in todays NFL. Most teams can not survive with this level of production from a QB position. Skins are an anomaly in this regard due to the strong D and good running game. If either of the two falters due to teams figuring it out or injuries the team is done winning. We are basically the 2017 Jaguars.. see how that worked out.

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