Which wide receiver would you like Washington to get?

[bobandweave]

8 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m not sure what you’re asking here...

 

You said and I quoted it not about trading for Bryant. I asked you if we are discussing Bryant how you figure it’s not about trading for Bryant

[skinny21]

46 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

You said and I quoted it not about trading for Bryant. I asked you if we are discussing Bryant how you figure it’s not about trading for Bryant

Ah, I gotcha now.  

 

My issue isn’t trading for Bryant per say, it’s about what it comes with (losing a pick, getting a 1 year deal and/or expensive contract), what it means (between Bryant and Smith, it means win now and a move that looks potentially PR driven), and the likelihood we get screwed over in the deal.  Same with how my issue with the Smith trade wasn’t because I dislike Smith (or thought we didn’t need a qb), it’s the baggage and implications that come with the deal. 

[Warhead36]

Bryant? As in Dez Bryant? He's terrible now. HARD pass. Ryan Grant is better than he is.

 

Looks like you're talking about Martavis Bryant. He's a talent but you really think he'd work in THIS environment? No thanks.

[duffy]

I posted in the draft thread, but figure it belongs here. 

 

I would be fine with a trade of Cravens for M. Bryant. Seems fair enough on both sides. 

[Taylorcooley1]

I would think m Bryant would compliment a smith very nice...but I've been around long enough to know better...give me a list of f agents who have paid dividends here...I still like the Vernon Davis signing...last productive f agent I can remember.

[I Love The Skins]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Bryant? As in Dez Bryant? He's terrible now. HARD pass. Ryan Grant is better than he is.

 

Looks like you're talking about Martavis Bryant.

I take Bryant here, Alex Smith would be very happy to have him and Josh Doctson to throw to.

[bowhunter]

3 hours ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

I would think m Bryant would compliment a smith very nice...but I've been around long enough to know better...give me a list of f agents who have paid dividends here...I still like the Vernon Davis signing...last productive f agent I can remember.

Swearinger and Z.Brown don't warrant a nod here?

[Birdlives]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Bryant? As in Dez Bryant? He's terrible now. HARD pass. Ryan Grant is better than he is.

 

Looks like you're talking about Martavis Bryant. He's a talent but you really think he'd work in THIS environment? No thanks.

 

I disagree. If the cowboys release Dez, I sign him the next day. He disappeared when Romo went away. Dez ain’t running away from anyone, but he’s big and strong and his qb has to trust he’ll win without separation, which he does. I think Gruden could use Dez in a way that would be very effective. If he’s free, I’d sign him.

 

I’d hard pass on Martavis Bryant unless he costs a Cravens or a 7th round pick. The guy is 1 joint away from a life ban. 

 

 

[Taylorcooley1]

29 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Swearinger and Z.Brown don't warrant a nod here?

Yes..yes they do... if they are able to stick around.... I'm still looking for a Lorenzo Alexander Buffalo Bills Jersey

[bobandweave]

5 hours ago, Birdlives said:

 

I disagree. If the cowboys release Dez, I sign him the next day. He disappeared when Romo went away. Dez ain’t running away from anyone, but he’s big and strong and his qb has to trust he’ll win without separation, which he does. I think Gruden could use Dez in a way that would be very effective. If he’s free, I’d sign him.

 

I’d hard pass on Martavis Bryant unless he costs a Cravens or a 7th round pick. The guy is 1 joint away from a life ban. 

 

 

 

Which is why I would keep him on his current deal of only 700k, if he smokes they lose that. If he’s got his stuff together they get a year to get a feel on that and build a relationship. 

 

Depends on the ask of course but with this news coming out now it does say a few things 

 

1. They won’t be resigning him long term, they are burning a relationship publically

 

2. They want to move him, would be beyond screwed up if they know about a failed test and dumped that on someone. Clearly they don’t want to move him for cash relief so curious on the timing and news.

 

Depends on how much they want to move him. If they took a fourth for him still no? Respect if no for you to me high high risk but possible high high reward move if the price was low enough so worth exploring

 

Curious feel the same way if we were discussing Josh Gordon instead of MB?

 

Dez I agree with you 

[RG3fan]

I would avoid Bryant from all the drug problems he has had

[Reaper Skins]

Would rather have Maclin at half the cost, plus the experience of working with Smith already in Kansas City

[Audible_Red40]

22 hours ago, Reaper Skins said:

Would rather have Maclin at half the cost, plus the experience of working with Smith already in Kansas City

See, now I am totally down with this.

 

[skins island connection]

It would be nice to have a WR over 6'2 for a change.  One who can jump and catch, battle [ and win ] for the ball when its in the air.

Doctson is showing hints of being this type of player, but consistency is needed; 1 out of every 4 isn't going to cut it.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, skins island connection said:

It would be nice to have a WR over 6'2 for a change.  One who can jump and catch, battle [ and win ] for the ball when its in the air.

Doctson is showing hints of being this type of player, but consistency is needed; 1 out of every 4 isn't going to cut it.

 

Nice rating on post routes -- which is what we need.

 

Pro Football Focus‏Verified account @PFF Feb 25

More

Sammy Watkins' most successful routes this past season!

[Voice_of_Reason]

Well, on Gruden presser he said right now Crowder is the starter, though he wants to sign Grant and somebody with more juice. 

 

Im guessing they’re going to sign some role-player guy and then bring him in for 10% of plays...

 

Im absolutely convinced that it’s going to be the same group of skill position players on opening day, probably with a new RB.  Doctson, Crowder, Grant, Reed and some new RB.  CT as the third down guy.

 

That group’s max potential is 8-8.  Unless we start running the ball extrodimarily well...

 

I hope to hell I’m wrong. 

[max21]

On 2/23/2018 at 6:17 PM, Warhead36 said:

Bryant? As in Dez Bryant? He's terrible now. HARD pass. Ryan Grant is better than he is.

 

Looks like you're talking about Martavis Bryant. He's a talent but you really think he'd work in THIS environment? No thanks.

Ryan Grant is not better than Dez Bryant, sorry. 

[Est.1974]

On 23/02/2018 at 11:51 PM, duffy said:

 

I would be fine with a trade of Cravens for M. Bryant. Seems fair enough on both sides. 

 

Seeing as the Broncos seem keen on Cravens, I'd consider getters Sanders involved in the deal. However, last year our FO showed a reluctance to give 30 year old receivers 10mil per year. Sanders deal currently looks like 2 year just unde 20mil left, which is probably to rich for his output. 

 

Probably better getting a mid round pick back for Cravens.

[skinny21]

On 2/27/2018 at 6:36 AM, skins island connection said:

It would be nice to have a WR over 6'2 for a change.  One who can jump and catch, battle [ and win ] for the ball when its in the air.

Doctson is showing hints of being this type of player, but consistency is needed; 1 out of every 4 isn't going to cut it.

I get what you’re saying, but Smith isn’t really a ‘throw jump balls’ sort of passer, is he?   Gruden’s comments make me think of Moore, Washington or maybe St. Brown in the draft.  Not just a speed guy, but a guy that has solid enough speed to challenge deep.  

 

 

12 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, on Gruden presser he said right now Crowder is the starter, though he wants to sign Grant and somebody with more juice. 

 

Im guessing they’re going to sign some role-player guy and then bring him in for 10% of plays...

 

Im absolutely convinced that it’s going to be the same group of skill position players on opening day, probably with a new RB.  Doctson, Crowder, Grant, Reed and some new RB.  CT as the third down guy.

 

That group’s max potential is 8-8.  Unless we start running the ball extrodimarily well...

 

I hope to hell I’m wrong. 

I agree that would be a pretty lackluster group of weapons (though if Doctson makes some strides and Reed is healthier, it should be marginally better).  However, a better back and a healthier defense should make a difference.  

 

Seems like receiver is up near the top of the list for them.   Personally, I feel like a good TE can make a big difference too... though often they need time to adjust to the pros.  

 

This is gonna be an interesting offseason.  

 

 

 

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

Seeing as the Broncos seem keen on Cravens, I'd consider getters Sanders involved in the deal. However, last year our FO showed a reluctance to give 30 year old receivers 10mil per year. Sanders deal currently looks like 2 year just unde 20mil left, which is probably to rich for his output. 

 

Probably better getting a mid round pick back for Cravens.

Yeah, looks like 9.25/year, but I’m not sure about the opt out clause for 2019... that could be a deal breaker depending on the details.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I agree that would be a pretty lackluster group of weapons (though if Doctson makes some strides and Reed is healthier, it should be marginally better).  However, a better back and a healthier defense should make a difference.  

 

Seems like receiver is up near the top of the list for them.   Personally, I feel like a good TE can make a big difference too... though often they need time to adjust to the pros.  

 

This is gonna be an interesting offseason.  

I actually think RB is high on the list, they're counting on Reed coming back and staying healthy, but WR is not high on the list, especially if Grant comes back.  

 

It's a different point entirely, but I wouldn't count on Reed being available at all, and treat it as a bonus when he is.  

 

I really think Gruden thinks his scheme can get anybody open who knows what they are doing, and takes experience over talent.  And he's probably right for the most part.  The problem that I have with it is that no matter what, that limits your explosiveness, and also makes the margin for error small. 

 

I think Gruden is comfortable with Doctson, Crowder, Grant, and add a specialty speed-guy.  If you're going to go with that group, you've got to run the ball really well and play really good defense, because the skill level of the receivers puts a limiter on how many points the offense can score.

 

[Est.1974]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I actually think RB is high on the list, they're counting on Reed coming back and staying healthy, but WR is not high on the list, especially if Grant comes back.  

 

It's a different point entirely, but I wouldn't count on Reed being available at all, and treat it as a bonus when he is.  

 

I really think Gruden thinks his scheme can get anybody open who knows what they are doing, and takes experience over talent.  And he's probably right for the most part.  The problem that I have with it is that no matter what, that limits your explosiveness, and also makes the margin for error small. 

 

I think Gruden is comfortable with Doctson, Crowder, Grant, and add a specialty speed-guy.  If you're going to go with that group, you've got to run the ball really well and play really good defense, because the skill level of the receivers puts a limiter on how many points the offense can score.

 

 

I think, with the exception of CT, we will start over at RB and get one in FA plus draft one within our first couple of picks. The group was outright average at best. Major upgrade on the way. Fundamental for a Smith as well.

 

WR, can see us getting at least one in FA, maybe a two, or we will draft someone as our second addition.

 

Not sure on Doctson, I've got a suspicion we ship him out via trade if we get who we want in FA. Just a guess, but I could see that happening. 

[joeken24]

I think Gruden spilled the beans on Ryan Grant. So a free agent WR (like Albert Wilson) might be on the Redskins' radar.

 

http://www.redskins.com/videos/Jay-Gruden-We-Have-A-Few-Positions-Of-Need-To-Address/Jay_Gruden_Im_A_Firm_Believer_In_Offensive_Line_Play/7fa699a8-5923-48d3-bec1-0ee56e5f2534

[Voice_of_Reason]

27 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I think, with the exception of CT, we will start over at RB and get one in FA plus draft one within our first couple of picks. The group was outright average at best. Major upgrade on the way. Fundamental for a Smith as well.

I dunno.  Gruden has never really made it seem like he thinks he needs an elite back.  I really think that he looks at the running game as simply a necessary evil that helps the pass game.  I don't think he wants to really run the ball a lot, he wants to run it enough to effect the pass-game.  That's been his MO both as an OC in Cincy and also in his 4 years here.  I think a dynamic back would be much better for him.  However he really likes Rob Kelly and some of these other guys.

 

I'm not sure if they are going to start over or commit a lot of resources to it.  I hope I'm wrong.  I would like them to get a real legitimate back that has game-changing ability.  We don't have that now, outside of CT.  And CT can't be a 1st and 2nd down guy consistently.  He'd wear out by week 3.  

 

27 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

WR, can see us getting at least one in FA, maybe a two, or we will draft someone as our second addition.

I think we're going to pick up "cheap and available" WRs and roll with what we've got.  I don't agree with that position, I didn't agree with it last year. 

 

27 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Not sure on Doctson, I've got a suspicion we ship him out via trade if we get who we want in FA. Just a guess, but I could see that happening. 

Nah, there's no way we trade a rookie contract like that when we don't even have enough WRs on the team to field a team.  I doubt it, unless it's a swap for another WR. I also don't think we're targeting anybody in FA worth anything.  

 

I'm really bitter about the WR situation, and I think that the FO and Jay are both to blame.  Jay's needs to realize that he needs more on the outside, and the FO needs to make sure they don't go in with Doctson, Grant and Crowder as the top 3.  

 

Also, Jay said he was comfortable with Crowder as the outside guy.  That's a BIG BIG mistake.  He's not big or fast enough to challenge or get separation on the outside.  Neither is Grant.  But at least Crowder can work well in the slot.  Putting Crowder on the outside will sub-optimize everything.  

45 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

I think Gruden spilled the beans on Ryan Grant. So a free agent WR (like Albert Wilson) might be on the Redskins' radar.

 

http://www.redskins.com/videos/Jay-Gruden-We-Have-A-Few-Positions-Of-Need-To-Address/Jay_Gruden_Im_A_Firm_Believer_In_Offensive_Line_Play/7fa699a8-5923-48d3-bec1-0ee56e5f2534

I can't watch the video, what did he say that spilled the beans?

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I actually think RB is high on the list, they're counting on Reed coming back and staying healthy, but WR is not high on the list, especially if Grant comes back.  

 

It's a different point entirely, but I wouldn't count on Reed being available at all, and treat it as a bonus when he is.  

 

I really think Gruden thinks his scheme can get anybody open who knows what they are doing, and takes experience over talent.  And he's probably right for the most part.  The problem that I have with it is that no matter what, that limits your explosiveness, and also makes the margin for error small. 

 

I think Gruden is comfortable with Doctson, Crowder, Grant, and add a specialty speed-guy.  If you're going to go with that group, you've got to run the ball really well and play really good defense, because the skill level of the receivers puts a limiter on how many points the offense can score.

 

I think back is high on the list too (though it might be a long list with multiple top needs/wants), however, I don’t get the impression they want to devote valuable resources to it.  

 

You seem really jaded with Jay when it comes to receiver and back.  I mean, I see where you’re coming from, but I’m not reading as much into his run game success/failure, his kind words for Grant and Kelley, his mention of needing a speedier guy that can spread the D and open up the offense, or his thought that Crowder could play outside.  

 

Look at it this way, Jay was a qb for a number of years, he’s been around football for a long time.  He can probably identify things at least as well as we can, right?  He probably knows the trenches need to be effective, that the run game is a qbs best friend, who fits where talent-wise.  Understands dynamism, especially when it comes to backs and receivers.  

 

So he loves Rob Kelley - the guy that came out of nowhere, works his tail off, can break tackles behind the LOS to gets positive yardage when our oline and TEs miss blocks.  Doesn’t mean he is fine with him as the starter, but probably he sees the blocking issues, the stacked boxes and thinks - we need to address all of these spots, not just focus on the back.  

 

He loves Grant - also works hard, plays teams, is well rounded (ok speed, route running, hands, understanding of the offense and coverages), and can step in and play all 3 receiver spots.  He knows he’s not an ideal starter, but he sees a lot of value there.    

 

He really likes Crowder - he says Crowder could play outside (I believe him).  Doesn’t mean that’s what he wants, just that it’s one option.  If we acquire a guy better suited to the slot (even if that’s accidental) Jay believes he can work with that.  

 

He wants a speed guy, but he also made it clear that he wants a well rounded guy.  He wants an AJ Green.

 

So no telling what he actually gets to work with -  the FO has to actually listen, be smart in their scouting and what they devote their resources to - but I think Jay gets it for the most part.  I think he understands that some/much of it is out of hands - who does the FO pick up, how do these guys fit, develop, etc. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I think back is high on the list too (though it might be a long list with multiple top needs/wants), however, I don’t get the impression they want to devote valuable resources to it.  

I agree.  The problem is that the organization hasn't done a great job identifying RBs in later rounds at all.  See, Jones, Matt.  Maybe Perine is ok, but he's not a game changer.  

 

So my concern is that if they don't devote resources to it, they're going to end up with "eh" again.  And "eh" isn't going to be good enough.

 

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

You seem really jaded with Jay when it comes to receiver and back.  I mean, I see where you’re coming from, but I’m not reading as much into his run game success/failure, his kind words for Grant and Kelley, his mention of needing a speedier guy that can spread the D and open up the offense, or his thought that Crowder could play outside.  

I'm only jaded with Jay on RB's and WRs because we haven't had good ones, and the best ones that he's had since he's been here (Morris, Garcon and DJax) are all gone.  The replacement plan for all of them has been "eh" at best, with 1 possible bust in Doctson.  And no, Doctson isn't on Jay's room bill.  I get that.  

 

I have a HUGE issue with him thinking Crowder can play outside, though.  Because I know it won't work.  He tried it last year at times, and it didn't work.  He's not that type of player.  And not only that, but if he thinks it will work after it already not working, that's a problem.

 

I think Jay is very confident in his scheme to get guys open, even if they don't have a lot of talent.   And he's not entirely wrong.  But Grant cannot separate 1:1 against almost any starting caliber DB.  Period.  Crowder on the outside can't either.  He gets jammed, pushed back 3 yards, and he's dead in the play before it even starts.  What makes Crowder so effective is being able to work the middle against defenders, especially if they're not right up on him so he can get a more clean release.  FWIW, we did exactly the same thing with Antwon Randle-El.  Took a great slot guy, didn't have anybody who could really play opposite Moss (because Taylor Jacobs was the best practice player ever who couldn't contribute in games), so they stuck ARE out there.  And he was "eh." And it effected his punt returning also.  Sound familiar?  Exactly the same situation.  It didn't work then.  It didn't work last year, and it won't work in the future. 

 

As far as his run-game failures (he's had no successes in the run game in his 3 years as OC in Cincy, or his 4 years as HC here) I firmly believe that it's because he just doesn't value it or care that much.  He's a passing game guy, and the running game is simply there to help the passing game.  There's exactly zero creativity, no real commitment of resources, and no consistent production. And, quite frankly, if that's the plan, I'm ok with it as long as the passing game is clicking and we can put up points.  

 

The  thing that you should know, and why I get juiced about this, is that I stated all off-season last year, based on what Jay was saying, they were comfortable going with Doctson and Grant as starting WRs, with Crowder in the slot and Kelley as the starting back.  And I said from April of last year, almost a year, that was a BAD BAD plan. I was told, "VOR, calm down, it's coach speak, they'll never do that.  Grant isn't a starting WR.  They know that."  I was told this over and over.  Guess what? Grant was an opening day started.  It was a BAD BAD plan.  I posted in April or May that if Grant started at WR on opening day, the ceiling was 8-8.  Guess what?  That was also correct.  It was predictable, and it was wrong then, and it remains wrong now.  And everything I see is that they're going down exactly the same path, and they're going to make the same mistakes, with extraordinarily predictable results.  ** And before anybody says "PRYOR FAILED!" THAT WAS THE PLAN YOU STUPID DOPE!" I will remind you that Jay said repeatedly, when asked why Pryor and Doctson weren't on the field at the same time a lot, that THEY PLAYED THE SAME POSITION.  Pryor was brought in as an insurance policy for Doctson, not to elevate Grant/Crowder.  So, it remained a stupid plan. 

 

Let me 100% clear on this: It's not all on Jay.  In fact, it might not be mostly on Jay.  It might be Bruce and Doug.  I have no idea who is actually making the decisions.  This is a criticism of the Redskins as a whole for letting that happen.  IF Jay was comfortable with the plan, no GM in their right mind should have allowed a coach to put himself into that position.  It's an organizational failing.  

 

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Look at it this way, Jay was a qb for a number of years, he’s been around football for a long time.  He can probably identify things at least as well as we can, right?  He probably knows the trenches need to be effective, that the run game is a qbs best friend, who fits where talent-wise.  Understands dynamism, especially when it comes to backs and receivers.  

As a general rule, I don't like this line of thinking because you have a lot of BAD coaches out there who, by the very nature of getting a HC job in the NFL, have been massively successful at football in general.  At least as a coordinator, college level, coach, etc.  But there are just bad HC's who don't know what they need to do to be a good HC.  Norv is a really good example.  He was at best a "meh" HC.  He got 3 HC jobs.  He was "eh" at all of them.  He might be one of the top 3 OCs in the last 30 years.  It never translated.  Marvin Lewis was a hell of a good DC.  He's been a "meh" HC in Cincy.  

 

Just because you're good at one thing, in your example being a QB and being around football a long time, doesn't mean that you can translate that into leading an organization.

 

All I can see is that the team, while Gruden has been HC, has essentially gone backwards in skill position players, and not once has he ever indicated in any way that he thinks that's a problem, nor has the team done anything to indicate that there is a problem.  That's telling.  

 

 

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

So he loves Rob Kelley - the guy that came out of nowhere, works his tail off, can break tackles behind the LOS to gets positive yardage when our oline and TEs miss blocks.  Doesn’t mean he is fine with him as the starter, but probably he sees the blocking issues, the stacked boxes and thinks - we need to address all of these spots, not just focus on the back.  

Rob Kelley has no burst to the hole and average vision.  He's not a feature back on 30 teams.  He's a great guy to have on the team. But not a starter.  

 

I completely agree on TEs.  Our TE blocking is atrocious.  What are the odds we bring back exactly the same group of TEs and expect better results?  I'd say ... 97%.  The results won't be any better, and some folks (probably not you or I) will be wondering why the hell we can't run the ball.  

 

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

He loves Grant - also works hard, plays teams, is well rounded (ok speed, route running, hands, understanding of the offense and coverages), and can step in and play all 3 receiver spots.  He knows he’s not an ideal starter, but he sees a lot of value there.    

He is a great 4th or 5th guy on a good team.  He'd never start for any contender.  Look at the final 4 teams.  He'd struggle to make their roster. If you're going to compete against the best and expect to win, you've got to have comparable talent.  

 

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

He really likes Crowder - he says Crowder could play outside (I believe him).  Doesn’t mean that’s what he wants, just that it’s one option.  If we acquire a guy better suited to the slot (even if that’s accidental) Jay believes he can work with that.  

If he believes that, he has already been proven wrong, and will be proven wrong again.  It's just a matter of time.  Again, they tried this last year, it didn't work, which is one of the reasons why Grant played more on the outside in 2 receiver sets... 

 

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

He wants a speed guy, but he also made it clear that he wants a well rounded guy.  He wants an AJ Green.

I'd take AJ Green.   

 

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

So no telling what he actually gets to work with -  the FO has to actually listen, be smart in their scouting and what they devote their resources to - but I think Jay gets it for the most part.  I think he understands that some/much of it is out of hands - who does the FO pick up, how do these guys fit, develop, etc. 

Yeah, I agree.  The FO has to figure this out and gt talent.  I don't have any faith in their ability to do it.  None. 

 

It's fascinating that when they had possibly the best skill position players in the league in 2015/2016 with Garcon/DJax/Crowder/Reed, the defense let them down.  Now that they've let that go, the defense might come around, and the offense will let them down.