The *Budget Fight* Thread (Jan 2018 Edition)-

[tshile]

3 hours ago, Hersh said:

I totally disagree with liberals complaining about the Dems caving. Ultimately they are forcing the GOP to have a vote on DACA and they did this without a long drawn out shutdown and with CHIP extended and off the bargaining table. 

In principal I agree with you.

 

The problem is that I can definitely see a reality where the Republicans don't do anything for dreamers/daca and shut the government down and eventually get a budget passed when the dems show that they're not willing to shut the government down long term over this.

 

The dems got chip this time, but I don't know that they'll get what they want in a few weeks....

 

(I personally think budgets should be passed cleanly and this is a piss poor way of governing but this is what happens when your fill your government with piss poor people)

[nonniey]

4 hours ago, Hersh said:

I totally disagree with liberals complaining about the Dems caving. Ultimately they are forcing the GOP to have a vote on DACA and they did this without a long drawn out shutdown and with CHIP extended and off the bargaining table. 

No a lot of people on the left are misunderstanding what was promised by McConnell. He promised to bring an immigration bill to the floor that would be open to amendments. I imagine what he will bring to the floor will include everything that Republicans want along with DACA. Then there will be a discussion on what should and should not be included.

 

We will see if what is finally included in the Senate bill will pass.  Question if the Bill doesn't pass by Feb 8 will the Dems hold up funding again?

[LadySkinsFan]

They should hold up a spending bill if Republicans continue to play games and lie their asses off.

 

So sick of their ****.

 

If they keep it up, voters will make them pay at the polls.

[Hersh]

3 minutes ago, nonniey said:

No a lot of people on the left are misunderstanding what was promised by McConnell. He promised to bring an immigration bill to the floor that would be open to amendments. I imagine what he will bring to the floor will include everything that Republicans want along with DACA. Then there will be a discussion on what should and should not be included.

 

We will see if what is finally included in the Senate bill will pass.  Question if the Bill doesn't pass by Feb 8 will the Dems hold up funding again?

 

McConnell is making a mistake by thinking short term with immigration instead of the long game. Throw in Paul Ryan and they are effectively writing off generations of Hispanic voters. 

 

Per the deal, don't forget, the Senate actually passed an immigration bill in 2013 and the GOP House refused to even vote on it. Personally I don't see a down side for the GOP to move one from the DACA issue by letting it get passed. It's not like the base is going to abandon them over this issue. Especially if there is some form of border control they can hang their hat on. 

 

 

[nonniey]

Just now, LadySkinsFan said:

They should hold up a spending bill if Republicans continue to play games and lie their asses off.

 

So sick of their ****.

 

If they keep it up, voters will make them pay at the polls.

My question postulated McConnell holding up his end of the bargain - ie a Bill is brought to the floor that is open to amendments.  That is what he promised - he did not promise it would be passed (nor could he).  Do the Dems then hold up funding if it doesn't pass? That is what I am asking. 

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

McConnell is making a mistake by thinking short term with immigration instead of the long game. Throw in Paul Ryan and they are effectively writing off generations of Hispanic voters. 

 

Per the deal, don't forget, the Senate actually passed an immigration bill in 2013 and the GOP House refused to even vote on it. Personally I don't see a down side for the GOP to move one from the DACA issue by letting it get passed. It's not like the base is going to abandon them over this issue. Especially if there is some form of border control they can hang their hat on. 

 

 

That is not what I am asking. What happens if McConnell keeps his word but a bill doesn't get passed?

[LadySkinsFan]

McConnell could work on a bill that passes. 

 

If he doesn't even make an effort, he piles on his lies.

 

I don't trust Republicans at all to do anything that benefits actual humans except for the 1%ers.

[nonniey]

Just now, LadySkinsFan said:

McConnell could work on a bill that passes. 

 

If he doesn't even make an effort, he piles on his lies.

 

I don't trust Republicans at all to do anything that benefits actual humans except for the 1%ers.

OK lets say the McConnell brings a bill that funds Increased Border Security (Border wall), ends chain migration and includes DACA?  He then allows amendments - Dems  try to strip out the Wall and ending of Chain Migration , Republicans will try adding penalties to Sanctuary States   Assume those amendments fail - will the Dems allow that bill to pass? And if it doesn't do they then hold up funding?

 

[Hersh]

4 minutes ago, nonniey said:

 

That is not what I am asking. What happens if McConnell keeps his word but a bill doesn't get passed?

 

Too many "depends on x, y and z" to be able to answer that now. Dems should hold on for DACA to get done. Right now they, the Dems, should be highlighting Dreamers in the military, in health care, as business owners, etc. 

[visionary]

47 minutes ago, nonniey said:

No a lot of people on the left are misunderstanding what was promised by McConnell. He promised to bring an immigration bill to the floor that would be open to amendments. I imagine what he will bring to the floor will include everything that Republicans want along with DACA. Then there will be a discussion on what should and should not be included.

This is what I've been expecting since the first mention of his promise.  It seemed pretty vague.

[Fresh8686]

19 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Too many "depends on x, y and z" to be able to answer that now. Dems should hold on for DACA to get done. Right now they, the Dems, should be highlighting Dreamers in the military, in health care, as business owners, etc. 

 

Its amazing how bad the democrats are at controlling the narrative. But then, that's mostly all the republicans do now a days. That spectacular mix of hubris and short term thinking. Why govern and actually do anything that promotes the common good, when you can make yourself rich and pump out a narrative based on fear and hate? Such a simple

message, shouted loudly and constantly that calls to the baser instincts of those who are the most ignorant, especially when it comes to character. 

 

The leverage of the lowest common denominator. Democrats have stil, yet to figure out how to properly counter it. 

[Hersh]

1 minute ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

Its amazing how bad the democrats are at controlling the narrative. But then, that's mostly all the republicans do now a days. That spectacular mix of hubris and short term thinking. Why govern and actually do anything that promotes the common good, when you can make yourself rich and pump out a narrative based on fear and hate? Such a simple

message, shouted loudly and constantly that calls to the baser instincts of those who are the most ignorant, especially when it comes to character. 

 

The leverage of the lowest common denominator. Democrats have stil, yet to figure out how to properly counter it. 

 

McConnell is a cold, soulless person. I dislike him far more than Trump and that's saying quite a bit. 

[Fresh8686]

14 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

McConnell is a cold, soulless person. I dislike him far more than Trump and that's saying quite a bit. 

 

Yup, I feel the same way. As bad as Trump is, McConnel's predation is much more complex and much deeper in its craven soullessness. It's terrible what him and others like him, like newt have done to the Republican Party and this country as a consequence. 

[Hersh]

BTW, I would not give the GOP all the want in exchange for DACA. I think there is an underestimation by some in this administration about the emotions they are stirring up in communities with all the deportations and if dreamers get deported, that will look terrible. This is one of those issues where some people may be in favor of stronger immigration until it hits their community. 

[nonniey]

18 minutes ago, Hersh said:

BTW, I would not give the GOP all the want in exchange for DACA. I think there is an underestimation by some in this administration about the emotions they are stirring up in communities with all the deportations and if dreamers get deported, that will look terrible. This is one of those issues where some people may be in favor of stronger immigration until it hits their community. 

How much/what would you (Or anyone else in this forum) give if you were a Senator for a day?  Serious question.

[Fresh8686]

10 minutes ago, Hersh said:

BTW, I would not give the GOP all the want in exchange for DACA. I think there is an underestimation by some in this administration about the emotions they are stirring up in communities with all the deportations and if dreamers get deported, that will look terrible. This is one of those issues where some people may be in favor of stronger immigration until it hits their community. 

 

I don't know how big the impact will be, but I've seen examples of that play out in articles throughout the year. People who voted Trump angry and confused when someone they know, "one of the good ones" suddenly gets caught up with ICE even after contributing to the community for many years. 

 

They've got people fired up about the idea, rather than the reality (in some cases of course. That base has a range of people, with how far their anger will take them). 

[visionary]

11 minutes ago, nonniey said:

How much/what would you (Or anyone else in this forum) give if you were a Senator for a day?  Serious question.

A big statue of Trump building a wall.  

 

 

 

 

(I don't know nearly enough about the actual discussions to give a serious answer)

[nonniey]

15 minutes ago, visionary said:

A big statue of Trump building a wall.

Issue is I've heard many say that only DACA should be considered and was wondering if that is the consensus in this forum.

 

I'm assuming that is what you want given this answer.

 

[Hersh]

9 minutes ago, nonniey said:

How much/what would you give if you were a Senator for a day?  Serious question.

 

I think there can be modifications to immigration lotteries and money for a wall is fine because I'm not sure it would really be spent. I think one of the problems is that the administration has already reduced visas for seasonal workers and wanted to reduce visas that brought in more highly skilled workers. This would need to be cleaned up. I know NC farmers really depend on seasonal workers that aren't necessarily highly skilled. I suspect this is the case across the country. 

 

I want to add what a bunch of BS this really is from the GOP. When Obama wanted increases to help with border security including additional judges to help get people processed, the GOP refused cause it was Obama. I'm not sure the GOP wants any deal cause they prefer to campaign on it. 

[nonniey]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

I think there can be modifications to immigration lotteries and money for a wall is fine because I'm not sure it would really be spent. I think one of the problems is that the administration has already reduced visas for seasonal workers and wanted to reduce visas that brought in more highly skilled workers. This would need to be cleaned up. I know NC farmers really depend on seasonal workers that aren't necessarily highly skilled. I suspect this is the case across the country. 

 

I want to add what a bunch of BS this really is from the GOP. When Obama wanted increases to help with border security including additional judges to help get people processed, the GOP refused cause it was Obama. I'm not sure the GOP wants any deal cause they prefer to campaign on it. 

Well I'm on the same page with you on the H1 Visa (highly skilled) program. Bannon's attack on that program was idiotic and Trump apparently bought in on that one. 

[DogofWar1]

Nice.

[Fergasun]

I'm going to admit to being a Fed employee - shutdowns in October are completely different than shutdowns in the middle of the year.  A shutdown for a protracted time has the potential to personally suck for me...   and a shutdown on February 8 will affect people getting tax refunds.... who needs their tax refunds the most?  Probably not the 1%.  If this gets shutdown on February 8, it'll be a disaster.   

 

The point for the Democrats should be to highlight that GOP doesn't really want to do anything with DACA.  Right now they all said, "Oh yeah, Senate will pass DACA..." here's how I see a deal. 

 

DACA-fix gets passed for a limited number of dreamers.  Democrats agree to soften their 1:1 stance on funding for the  government as in they allow the GOP to increase the military cap by a bit more than the domestic cap.

 

Reasonable people could get this done right now.  I don't know if the House is reasonable... basically the Senate can pass something 70-30 and the House can do nothing, or pass their partisan immigration bill -- and this ends up in a ridiculous conference committee that stretches into the summer.  The Democrats have the potential to turn this into a huge 2018 issue.   

 

I hope that the "Group of 20 Senators" who have been talking about this continue to talk and don't need another friggin' crisis to get something done.  That's the whole point of the Senate! 

[Hersh]

38 minutes ago, nonniey said:

Well I'm on the same page with you on the H1 Visa (highly skilled) program. Bannon's attack on that program was idiotic and Trump apparently bought in on that one. 

 

I think there is a major disconnect between politicians and industries/employers when it comes to immigration. It seems as if there are certain politicians that treat immigration in a vacuum without examining the impact of the economy. 

[tshile]

10 hours ago, nonniey said:

OK lets say the McConnell brings a bill that funds Increased Border Security (Border wall), ends chain migration and includes DACA?  He then allows amendments - Dems  try to strip out the Wall and ending of Chain Migration , Republicans will try adding penalties to Sanctuary States   Assume those amendments fail - will the Dems allow that bill to pass? And if it doesn't do they then hold up funding?

 

This is pretty much what I think is going to happen.

 

Dems will be mad that McConnell might have technically fulfilled his promise, but in reality lied to them. Republicans will say held up his deal, dems are weak on security and/or just want a repeat of the 80's, etc.

 

I will remain unsurprised and angry at both sides for sucking yet again, despite our resident liberals cries of botherism and being unfairly criticized for wahing.

 

And we'll be right back where we have been.

 

[Going Commando]

This is was the outcome I expected.  A commitment to deal with DACA in the next month.  The next step is for the senate to pass compromise bill where Republicans get increased funding for border security and Democrats get a pathway to citizenship for DACA recipients.  I hope Democrats don't give Trump money for his stupid ass wall though.  That's a boondoggle, and honestly Republicans shouldn't want it because it's an ineffective waste of money that'll be one giant mess that they will have to own.

 

I don't trust McConnell but this is something his own party wants, so I do expect him to keep his promise and bring bipartisan legislation to vote.  But I definitely don't expect House Republicans to pass it or even vote for it.  The GoP conference in the House is full of extremists and it's still politically fractured.  They are unpredictable.

 

The bottom line takeaway from all of this is that there is no dealing with Trump.  He submarines the legislative process instead of leading it like a real president.  Congress will have to take the lead on all matters as Trump is killing the imperial presidency with his incompetence and weakness.  Next time Republicans tell Schumer to go bargain with the White House first, he needs to point to this continuing resolution farce and say he won't waste everyone's time again.

[Zguy28]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

This is was the outcome I expected.  A commitment to deal with DACA in the next month.  The next step is for the senate to pass compromise bill where Republicans get increased funding for border security and Democrats get a pathway to citizenship for DACA recipients.  I hope Democrats don't give Trump money for his stupid ass wall though.  That's a boondoggle, and honestly Republicans shouldn't want it because it's an ineffective waste of money that'll be one giant mess that they will have to own.

 

I don't trust McConnell but this is something his own party wants, so I do expect him to keep his promise and bring bipartisan legislation to vote.  But I definitely don't expect House Republicans to pass it or even vote for it.  The GoP conference in the House is full of extremists and it's still politically fractured.  They are unpredictable.

 

The bottom line takeaway from all of this is that there is no dealing with Trump.  He submarines the legislative process instead of leading it like a real president.  Congress will have to take the lead on all matters as Trump is killing the imperial presidency with his incompetence and weakness.  Next time Republicans tell Schumer to go bargain with the White House first, he needs to point to this continuing resolution farce and say he won't waste everyone's time again.

The bottom line takeaway I see is for both parties, this means more voters. GOP painted the gov shutdown as the fault of Democrats and when the DACA recipients become citizens they will all vote Democrat. Round and round we go, playing with our lives for the power.