Will Cousins Play For The Skins In 2018

[Darrell Green Fan]

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

First, you’re the one providing straw man arguments.

 

Second, I asked what the technical difference in their play was. You responded with “they won in spite of Bortles”. Which doesn’t answer my original question you responded to at all.

 

Third, you just changed your own question.  You said it was obvious they won despite Bortles, now you’re asking me to prove his play was a “big” factor. Those are two opposite ends of the spectrum. 

 

To clarify: I never said his play was a big factor. Or it wasn’t. I asked, from a technical standpoint, what the difference between Bortles and Cousins was. You responded with strawmen.

 

I honestly have no idea how much more clear I can be. Blake Bortles is simply not a good QB, we saw it in the win over Pittsburgh in October when he went 8-14 for 95 yards and an INT in a 30-9 win and we saw it against yesterday where the Jags did in fact win in spite of Bortles.    I firmly believe Kirk Cousins would make that an entirely different team and I've supplied stats to back up that position.  I see no strawman what so ever in my arguments.  .  

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I honestly have no idea how much more clear I can be. Blake Bortles is simply not a good QB, we saw it in the win over Pittsburgh in October when he went 8-14 for 95 yards and an INT in a 30-9 win and we saw it against yesterday where the Jags did in fact win in spite of Bortles.    I firmly believe Kirk Cousins would make that an entirely different team and I've supplied stats to back up that position.  I see no strawman what so ever in my arguments.  .  

 

Not in this discussion you haven’t.

 

youll have to forgive me, I haven’t read all of your posts.

 

But I also asked about technical differences and not stats. Though I will point out that there ARE differences in their play. And again, because I know someone won’t accurately read what I’m asking: I’m not arguing Bortles is better than Cousins.

[Darrell Green Fan]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Not in this discussion you haven’t.

 

youll have to forgive me, I haven’t read all of your posts.

 

But I also asked about technical differences and not stats. Though I will point out that there ARE differences in their play. And again, because I know someone won’t accurately read what I’m asking: I’m not arguing Bortles is better than Cousins.

 

Here's the thing. You challenged my post claiming it should be obvious that the won despite Bortles by saying "obvious doesn’t always mean correct"  That tells me you were prepared to argue that Bortles was in fact a big factor in the win when the truth is he made pretty much one big pass.  To be honest I have no idea what you are arguing.

 

Again I've been pretty clear in my opinion and it's no strawman.  Cousins is a much better QB,.  He is far more accurate and his numbers are far superior despite being a in much worse situation.  Bortles was missing open receivers all day, it's what he does.  Unlike Kirk who led the league in air yards Bortles MO is the dump off which pads his numbers but doesn't really scare anyone.  

 

 I firmly believe the Jacksonville Jaguars would be a much better team with Kirk Cousins at QB.  Is that not clear enough?

 

 

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Does Cousins have the odd 40 yard "duck laser" throw in his arsenal?

 

Bortles did go through a long stretch last year where he'd turn his hand over, palm down, during his throwing motion.  One of the longest motions I've ever seen.  

 

Tightened it up this year but I'd worry he'll revert back to it again at some point.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Here't the thing. You challenged my post claiming it should be obvious that the won despite Bortles by saying "obvious doesn’t always mean correct" 

 

Unlike Kirk who led the league in air yards Bortles MO is the dump off which pads his numbers but doesn't really scare anyone.  

 

 I firmly believe the Jacksonville Jaguars would be a much better team with Kirk Cousins at QB.  Is that not clear enough?

 

 

 

Stating that “obvious doesn’t always mean correct” isn’t a slight on you. Its the truth. Something being obvious to one person doesn’t mean that they’re right. The same applies to myself.

 

Kirk didn’t lead the league in air yards, by the way. He averages 6.1 per completed pass. Bortles was 5.9.

 

Intended passes Kirk was 8.2. Bortles 7.9.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2017/all#average-completed-yards

 

Sure. Your opinion is clear. But your reasoning still isn’t.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, DisgruntledLionFan#54,927 said:

Does Cousins have the odd 40 yard "duck laser" throw in his arsenal?

 

Bortles did go through a long stretch last year where he'd turn his hand over, palm down, during his throwing motion.  One of the longest motions I've ever seen.  

 

Tightened it up this year but I'd worry he'll revert back to it again at some point.

 

This is tangible. And Kirk is more of a 30 yard throw to no one pass. Doesn’t throw a ton of ducks. Though his deep ball accuracy seems to be getting better. Hit Doctson in the hands more than a few times.

 

Agreed on Bortles throwing motion. It was horrendous last year and better this year. That’s what actually gives me hope for Bortles. Reps with an improved motion can certainly help him.

 

But it could go the other way, too. 

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

From a technical standpoint, what do you see different between Cousins and Bortles in their play? I’m not talking numbers. I’m talking from their play.

 

Note: I’m not baiting you. I do believe Cousins is the better QB. But I’m not sure I buy the narrative that he’s 3-5% of the cap better.

 

Bortles straight up miss-fires at times. (mainly because he's looking for the open receiver not throwing the receiver open) Kirk's not a world-beater in that department, but its not a weakness. Kirk throws high at times and sails his deep ball, but he rarely throws up some complete 100%  garbage. 

 

His defense is also special; they take the ball away and put points on the board. 33 takeaways, 7 defensive TDs and 55 sacks. Those are ridiculous numbers.  (23 - 2 - 42 for the Skins)

 

Compared to a defense like Minnesota that doesn't take the ball away or make big plays, but is impossible to move the ball against. Completely different animal. (19 - 1 - 37)  

 

To manufacture points the Vikings run a successful play-action passing offense. Something Bortles isn't known for, but not sure if its a weakness or not. Just noting there are different formulas and systems at work in the NFL. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Mooka said:

 

Bortles straight up miss-fires at times. (mainly because he's looking for the open receiver not throwing the receiver open) Kirk's not a world-beater in that department, but its not a weakness. Kirk throws high at times and sails his deep ball, but he rarely throws up some complete 100%  garbage. 

 

Compared to a defense like Minnesota that doesn't take the ball away or make big plays, but is impossible to move the ball against. Completely different animal. (19 - 1 - 37)  

 

Agreed on misfires from Bortles. He misses a lot more often than you’d like and receivers look around wondering who the hell it was intended for. And agreed on Cousins, too. He does it fairly often. But when he misses it’s either too long or to a DB who seems shocked the ball hit him in the chest. But I’d agree that it’s a much more glaring weakness for Bortles than Cousins.

 

Bortles is dangerous in the PA game in my opinion now that he’s been running it more often. And it might be a bias because it’s what I “want to see”, but I feel like he throws better on the move when the D gets sucked in on the PA fake. I’m not sure he has a high confidence level on his pocket passing.

 

Great reply. Thanks.

[Darrell Green Fan]

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Stating that “obvious doesn’t always mean correct” isn’t a slight on you. Its the truth. Something being obvious to one person doesn’t mean that they’re right. The same applies to myself.

 

Kirk didn’t lead the league in air yards, by the way. He averages 6.1 per completed pass. Bortles was 5.9.

 

Intended passes Kirk was 8.2. Bortles 7.9.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2017/all#average-completed-yards

 

Sure. Your opinion is clear. But your reasoning still isn’t.

 

 

 

 

This is tangible. And Kirk is more of a 30 yard throw to no one pass. Doesn’t throw a ton of ducks. Though his deep ball accuracy seems to be getting better. Hit Doctson in the hands more than a few times.

 

Agreed on Bortles throwing motion. It was horrendous last year and better this year. That’s what actually gives me hope for Bortles. Reps with an improved motion can certainly help him.

 

But it could go the other way, too. 

 

I was referring to last year regarding air yards, thought that stat was so well known it didn't need an elaboration.  I still don't see a thing wrong with my reasoning, I backed my position up with examples and facts. Again nobody wants to address the terrible situation Kirk finds himself in with no running game which of course is a QBs best friend.

 

There is little question in my mind most people see a considerable difference between the play of the two QBs.  

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

There is little question in my mind most people see a considerable difference between the play of the two QBs.  

 

Not what I’m asking.

 

And he didn’t lead the league in air yards last year. 

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2016/all#average-intended-yards

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Not what I’m asking.

 

Then I have no idea what you are asking and I guess it's best we turn the page.

 

Peace.

[Skins199021]

10 hours ago, samy316 said:

 

What good would cutting costs do, when you have a bunch of clowns running the Front Office, and a clown owner who has never proven once that he knows what he's doing?  If we're getting 8-10 wins a year with Cousins as is now, why would we set ourselves back just on the chance that we will get to build our team in that mold?  What evidence do you have that we would get it right once we blow up the team and save cap room?  We never will get it right, that's the answer.  Unless you are all in for cleaning house, and letting a new FO decide what to do with Cousins, that's cool, but if you're for keeping the status quo, I got some bad news for you:  We will be bad for a long time to come, with nothing to show for it.

Yeah the FO sucks, but they shouldn't compound their own mistake by now making Kirk the highest paid QB in the league. That is just terrible value, and we simply don't have the team around Kirk in place to be able to kill our cap for him. Joe Flacco essentially killed the Ravens with his contract

[Fat Stupid Loser]

19 hours ago, fordranger76 said:

I still don't understand why some have to name call or insult others to get their point across on this board. We are all just fans sharing our opinions. People got to be dicks though I dunno. HTTR.

Did you just call someone a dick?  

[skinsOLfan]

Some of the Kirk supports make me laugh always boasting his 4000+ yd seasons, completion percentage, etc but the only stat that counts is wins and loses.

You guys make every excuse in the book for Kirk, it's always someone else on the teams fault never Kirk, the defense sucks, no running game, the receivers suck. 

And when RGIII was here everything was his fault although his OL was nowhere near as good as this one (changed/upgraded 3 starters for Kirk) the defense wasn't all world but even when RGIII's did his "part" and scored enough to win but defense or special teams lost us the game, the loss was all his fault. But with Kirk it's not him it's everyone else. However Kirk chokes in every big game or situation when those around him are playing well, how many times has he thrown a pick 6 or interception in the endzone thwarting a scoring drive? All of his "stats" move the team between the 20s but he chokes in the redzone.

Also with his passing stats how many times have his receivers bailed him out on some terrible throws or he throws the checkdown and a receiver turns it into a long touchdown (Crowder and Thompson on screen plays).

Don't get me wrong Kirk is a good NFL starter not elite but top 15 but there's no way he deserves to be the "highest" paid player in the NFL because for the money he and his agent expect/demand he should be able to put the team on his back and win in spite of how the rest of the team is playing, he should be able to elevate those around him not just pad his stats. Because ALL of the other QBs in that pay range have won multilpe division titles and 10+ win seasons and have played in or won Super Bowls and Cousins has not.

I would rather tag and trade Kirk or let him walk and continue to build the team (Gruden must make running the football a priority) with better Defense and running the football. Team > individual player.

 

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, skinsOLfan said:

Team > individual player.

 

 

This line sums it up.

 

You make some great points. RE: The line with Griffin being worse, failures in big moments. Agree there. I’ve said it countless times, Cousins is a healthy Tony Romo. And that’s good if you have everything else in place. He’s among the best in the league but not team changing top tier. 

 

As much as I like Kirk, it wouldn’t upset me if they downgraded a touch (please don’t let us revert to the Danny Wuerrful Years) at QB and shored up the running game. 

 

I also advocate finding a way to move Norman for the same reason. And Jordan Reed.

 

It ain’t because they’re not great players. They are. It’s about value to the team. And as good as these guys are, the team would stand to improve with more quality depth rather than so much top end money tied up into a few players.

 

The hardest guy for me to part with would be Norman. Love the way he plays. Just not sure he’s needed given the depth we have at CB and the money tied up in him. But he’d definitely be missed. Dude is a playmaker.

[fordranger76]

26 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Did you just call someone a dick?  

This guy gets it. This is going to be my last question for those that love Kirk. Is it worth it in your opinion for him to sign a 27 to 30 million dollar cap hit contract. To be the highest paid player in history. I see a lot of he needs a team around him. Fair point. Where are we getting these team mates at this price? I seriously want to know the rationale at this point.

[bobandweave]

12 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

....but Brees has the ability to have his team on the cusp multiple seasons and if the rest of the team is not up to the task, the following season remains a realistic possibility. ALWAYS.

 

The Saints finishes in their division since Brees arrived in 2006 have been

 

First place finish - 3 times
Second place finish - 3 times
Third place finish - 4 times
Fourth place finish - 1 time

 

Always as you say is not the case to me. In 11 seasons of having Brees the Saints finished first in the NFC South three times. We finished in third place this season and weren't on the cusp of anything. Even the best QBs need supporting casts around them. QB's can't do it all not that was what you were saying but to me only when for the Saints the rest of the team plays up to the QB level did we ever see that team finish in first.

 

When the QB is great and the rest of the team is crappy like the Redskins offense right now there is an imbalance, and the team finishes in 3rd or 4th place with a good QB. Unless you have the greatest head coach and the greatest QB playing at the same time like the Patriots that seems to be the rule. Unless you have a Tom Brady, great QB play alone only gets a team so far.

 

Once there is equilibrium between good QB play and good receivers and running backs then a team usually sees the playoffs. Now the reverse is also true. If the Defense is out of this world great you don't need equality between them and the offense. Like the Jags right now any QB would do. But unless you have that great Defense most teams won't get it done that way. Its easier to get there year over year with a strong offense rather then defense because of the player turnover

 

The problem with Cousins right now is that the timing is awful. The offense isn't good, the Defense is getting better but far from great. Even if they did sign him to a LTD which I don't think gets done, the expectation with this team building formula says the 2018 Redskins teams at only 5-8 wins max next year same as this season.

 

So we aren't going to get the expected results of the playoffs even if he comes back. Which leaves the team building formula to me saying they need to move on from Cousins only because of the contract not because he isn't good but they aren't ready for him yet, and for this off season build the rest of the team up and take a shot at a QB in the draft. Well two of them actually. Hope that the drafted QB becomes good and the rest of the team becomes good around the same time. 

 

 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

13 hours ago, Redd said:

I'm gonna take some heat for this but it's what I think.  I just watched Blake Bortles and Case Keenum win games and are going to play in championship games.

 

If we can't get Kirk to sign a good deal then I see no reason why we can't instead focus on building an insane defense and run game and then get a average below average qb to run the offense.  Nick freaking Foles is in the nfc championship.

 

Hopefully we can get kirk for around 22 million a year for 5 years with 65 million guaranteed.  That's a lot of ? and we can build an insane defense like the Vikings and Jags with the extra money we have left.  Maybe draft a rb with some speed and can catch.

 

If not let him ? but don't tag him.  We had our chance to get him for cheap and blew it.  Build everything else and let Grudes pick a qb in the draft or the next one and improve everything else like the Jaguars have done.

But haven't we been trying to do this with just some guy at QB since 1992?  We clearly aren't capable of doing that. How many teams actually are capable of building an insane defense and run game?  Not very many historically that I can think of. Certainly not many to win SBs.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

The team building formula is to draft well(Saints) and hope to get lucky sometimes(Keenum + Treadwell/Thielen).

 

But eventually, everyone wants to get paid.

 

 

 

 

[markmills67]

I have been saying that the Redskins FO should have given cousin's an offer by now, is there any reason at all why both parties can't get a LTD signed now. Why would the powers that be at the Redskins not want this sorted so that we can make plan's for the rest of the team. 

 

HTTR 

[Mr. Sinister]

I think after Jacksonville loses next week, Coughlin will already have that contract ready to sign, and will just stare at it everyday for several months until it's FA time, If no franchise tag happens, which would probably not be a healthy move for Allen. Natives are getting restless.

[zoony]

5 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

I have been saying that the Redskins FO should have given cousin's an offer by now, is there any reason at all why both parties can't get a LTD signed now. Why would the powers that be at the Redskins not want this sorted so that we can make plan's for the rest of the team. 

 

HTTR 

 

Because it is a ****ty organization run by people who suck at communication, PR, culture, purpose, strategy, and ethics.  

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I think after Jacksonville loses next week, Coughlin will already have that contract ready to sign, and will just stare at it everyday for several months until it's FA time, If no franchise tag happens, which would probably not be a healthy move for Allen. Natives are getting restless.

 

Franchising him would frustrate me more than seeing him walk. Personally speaking. It’s tough to trade out of a tag and that cap hit is killer. LTD or walk.

[Mr. Sinister]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Franchising him would frustrate me more than seeing him walk. Personally speaking. It’s tough to trade out of a tag and that cap hit is killer. LTD or walk.

 

Me too. I'm beyond caring at this point what happens, as long as the Snyder Cold War is over. If they tag him again, I seriously might not watch a game next year. Already missed about 5 this season. Just had enough.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

12 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Cousins had Brees beat in his stadium with nowhere near the talent Brees has on offense, until our defense lost the game and the refs and Grudens playcalling assisted.

 

By the way, Brees was 7 and 9 the past 3 years until actual talent was added to the roster.

 

And Brees threw 2 Ints today. If this was the Redskins the story wouldn't be that Cousins brought the Redskins back and should have won. It would be about those 2 picks.

Yep. Can't win the big game. Panics under pressure. Yada yada. Not elite, not even really very good.

[Mr. Sinister]

19 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Yep. Can't win the big game. Panics under pressure. Yada yada. Not elite, not even really very good.

 

It's what happens when you are a multi-All Pro, HoF, Super Bowl MVP QB, with eye popping season to season statlines, that blow mortals like Cousins out of the water, and happens to still be doing it at an advanced age. I have softened some in regards to this discussion in favor of Kirk, but That is something people really need to get over. It's  ridiculous

 

*He also brought them back and had the game won on top of it. That game last year was the exact opposite scenario.