Tax Bill

[NoCalMike]

4 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Republicans are no longer a Left or Right issue, but a corrupt vs. evil issue. Okay, corrupt vs. evil vs. stupid. Not sure you can be a member of the modern GOP without being one of the above or a combination of one of the above.

 

There are good conservatives. I believe you're one. There are honorable conservatives. I know many. Are there any good or honorable politicians left in the GOP at the Federal level. I have my doubts.

 

(Probably exercising in hyperbole)

 

Yeah I think what gets lost in all of this is that even as someone who leans left, I am not in any way saying plenty of Democrats aren't corrupt and can't be easily bought as well, but in our current political climate the "well....both sides do it" nonsense has really got to stop.  This isn't a matter of both sides anything, it's your every day run of the mill political cronyism vs. some really vile human beings that are working for the wrong folks. 

[LadySkinsFan]

The thing is: is this good for the country, the greatest good.

 

And no it isn't. We, our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren are going to pay for this anathema.

 

I don't bother looking at the tables because it doesn't matter to us as individuals, at least it shouldn't. Anyone calculating are selfish and not looking at the big picture. Because in the end, it will end up affecting you individually while the county is ****ed.

 

And you know it.

 

Shame on the Republicans in both Houses.

Edited December 2, 2017 by LadySkinsFan

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

Republicans are no longer a Left or Right issue, but a corrupt vs. evil issue. Okay, corrupt vs. evil vs. stupid. Not sure you can be a member of the modern GOP without being one of the above or a combination of one of the above.

 

There are good conservatives. I believe you're one. There are honorable conservatives. I know many. Are there any good or honorable politicians left in the GOP at the Federal level. I have my doubts.

 

(Probably exercising in hyperbole)

I appreciate that.  

 

I was more saying that the way I view society, all I see is FUBAR.  The lack of willingness to compromise.  The utter stupidity (see breitbart).  The Right is a cesspool, don't get me wrong.  But I talk to enough liberals to see they aren't much smarter.  They lack critical thinking as much as anyone but only parrot what their preferred news source tells them.  Lucky for them Trump gives enough soft targets that it doesn't take much critical thinking to despise him.  But start a conversation about a topic and I realize how quickly they resort to calling someone racist or saying "you just don't understand".  Luckily I would say ES is the exception, and not an example, of our society.  I think that has a lot to do with the Mods.  And, with that, I'm done sucking up.  

 

Sadly, after the news came out about Flynn, my wife and I had a long talk.  We talked about what we could see being the outcome, etc.  And we included a brief plan on what each of us would do in the case of mass civil unrest (or whatever doomsday scenario suits you).  Seeing the mouth breathing Trumpers (and knowing how many guns they have) and the many on the Left that won't accept anyone who disagrees with them, I see trouble on the horizon.

Edited December 3, 2017 by TheGreatBuzz
grammar

[NoCalMike]

2 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

The thing is: is this good for the country, the greatest good.

 

And no it isn't. We, our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren are going to pay for this anathema.

 

 

 

This is my biggest problem with the GOP right now.  They are facilitating Trump's Presidency and willing to use him as an empty suit in order to get policy passed probably because they think having him removed from office might weaken their overall support and policies they need to keep their wealthy donor class re-established for the next 20-30 years.   If they dumped Trump, they would have a tougher battle for the policy they want, but it would be the right thing to do anyway, because.......Trump.

[Burgold]

22 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

This is my biggest problem with the GOP right now.  They are facilitating Trump's Presidency and willing to use him as an empty suit in order to get policy passed probably because they think having him removed from office might weaken their overall support and policies they need to keep their wealthy donor class re-established for the next 20-30 years.   If they dumped Trump, they would have a tougher battle for the policy they want, but it would be the right thing to do anyway, because.......Trump.

Thing is, if they wrote good policy it'd be a hell of a lot harder for Democrats to oppose it. History shows that Democrats have weak spines. If they think it's a good bill they cross party lines. Their ability to stay unified has never been a quarter of that of the Republicans... which is why the Republicans often come out on top in these things.

 

The reason that no Democrat has been tempted over to the other side is 1) The Republican leadership not only isn't wooing any, but is actively shooing them away and 2) every piece of major legislation they have crafted has been toxic waste. Anyone can see (including the Republicans) that their bills are horrible, destructive, and largely indefensible.

[TheGreatBuzz]

21 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Thing is, if they wrote good policy it'd be a hell of a lot harder for Democrats to oppose it. History shows that Democrats have weak spines. If they think it's a good bill they cross party lines. Their ability to stay unified has never been a quarter of that of the Republicans... which is why the Republicans often come out on top in these things.

 

The reason that no Democrat has been tempted over to the other side is 1) The Republican leadership not only isn't wooing any, but is actively shooing them away and 2) every piece of major legislation they have crafted has been toxic waste. Anyone can see (including the Republicans) that their bills are horrible, destructive, and largely indefensible.

I'm sorry but are you saying willingness to cross party lines for a good bill is a bad thing?  That is how I took it by saying "weak spines".  I think you are a smart guy so I don't think you mean it that way but that is how it sounds.

[Burgold]

18 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I'm sorry but are you saying willingness to cross party lines for a good bill is a bad thing?  That is how I took it by saying "weak spines".  I think you are a smart guy so I don't think you mean it that way but that is how it sounds.

No, I'm saying that I have seen Republicans remain absolutely unified no matter the quality of the bill for 8 years under Obama. No matter how good the bill was or how much  Americans needed support Republicans wouldn't play ball. Republicans actually root for Americans to suffer if it means more power for them. Dems don't have that in them. They wilt. They cross the aisle.

 

... And you're right, it's a good thing when Dems fold. It's funny to use all these terms that generally have negative meanings for something that should be a positive. TImes we live in, I suppose.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Burgold

[LD0506]

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[LD0506]

https://shareblue.com/trump-busted-for-touting-support-from-laughably-fake-economists-for-gop-tax-scam/

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

[Cooked Crack]

53 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

Working hard on that lobbying resume. Dean bout to be making the big bucks come 2019.

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

 

[Hersh]

This probably belongs elsewhere but since McConnell just passed the tax bill it’s my opinion that McConnell will actually be judged worse in history than Trump. Yup, I said it. (So long as Trump doesn’t start WWIII)

 

[NoCalMike]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

 

 

 

That tweet sums up exactly what I've been saying.  It exposes the GOP economic policy as having one ideology, the wealthy need more money, by any means necessary. Everything else they say is just background noise.

[Larry]

8 hours ago, visionary said:

 

 

So, that's a "no"?  

 

[Grumpy Vet]

13 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Anyone calculating are selfish and not looking at the big picture.

 

That's silly talk.  Of course I'm concerned how it will affect my kids and everyone else down the road.  However isn't it the mature and fiscally responsible thing to see how it affects your family?  Am I to hate it just because it is a Republican sponsored bill and not see how it will impact my family, my community and my loved ones?  I suggest others run the numbers too.  If that calculator blows and there is another one that is better, I'd love someone to send me a link.  I always have believed......

 

 

If the Republicans get this through, I'm sure the Democrats will be back in office soon and will over correct for the Republicans over correction.  Both sides are totally out of touch and the whole system is so completely broken I'm always going to make decisions based on what I believe is good for the country, my family and my community.  Sometimes it is a Dem backed idea and sometimes GoP.  On this particular issue, I'm still gathering information and I encourage others to do similarly. 

[Weganator]

 

[Burgold]

7 minutes ago, Weganator said:

 

And when they break out that argument you know they are out of ammo. 

 

The problem with this bill is that there is no real positive spin. It increases the deficit and debt in a massive way. It cuts services in a massive way. It will actually be more expensive for many middle and lower class families. The only group that it benefits is the donor class. It's a crap bill and every analysis, conservative, liberal, think tank, economist, and academic, pretty much says so.

[twa]

the calculator says +2k with the senate bill throwing in a few hundred for me.

 

probably wrong

[Larry]

8 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

That tweet sums up exactly what I've been saying.  It exposes the GOP economic policy as having one ideology, the wealthy need more money, by any means necessary. Everything else they say is just background noise.

 

What I'm seeing is a goal of making the lives of poor people, worse. 

 

Although I will concede that the two goals are interrelated to the point that I'm not sure one could design a test to differentiate the two. 

 

Yeah, it's been clear since Reagan that Republicans don't care about the deficit, in and of itself. But that rather, it's viewed as a tool, to be used to justify cutting social spending. 

 

Which, in turn, leads to the conclusion that increasing the deficit isn't a side effect of these tax cuts. It's one of the purposes. 

[Weganator]

17 minutes ago, Burgold said:

And when they break out that argument you know they are out of ammo. 

 

The problem with this bill is that there is no real positive spin. It increases the deficit and debt in a massive way. It cuts services in a massive way. It will actually be more expensive for many middle and lower class families. The only group that it benefits is the donor class. It's a crap bill and every analysis, conservative, liberal, think tank, economist, and academic, pretty much says so.

It's more about if you net out positively, but believe this is a great harm, there is a means for you to provide more funds to the super efficient government.

 

Otherwise it's just ppl that don't net out paying taxes after benefits complaining about ppl being robbed less. You can choose to pay extra, but I go to prison if I can't / don't cover whatever percentage of my efforts  you believe I owe for choosing to spend that time earning.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

3 minutes ago, Larry said:

What I'm seeing is a goal of making the lives of poor people, worse. 

I don’t know if it’s a goal but it’s at least an acceptable bit of collateral damage.

4 minutes ago, Weganator said:

It's more about if you net out positively, but believe this is a great harm, there is a means for you to provide more funds to the super efficient government.

It was kind of a funny line but Burgold is correct that as an argument, it’s not a good point.

[Burgold]

5 minutes ago, Weganator said:

It's more about if you net out positively, but believe this is a great harm, there is a means for you to provide more funds to the super efficient government.

 

Otherwise it's just ppl that don't net out paying taxes after benefits complaining about ppl being robbed less. You can choose to pay extra, but I go to prison if I can't / don't cover whatever percentage of my efforts  you believe I owe for choosing to spend that time earning.

It's really not.

 

Think of it this way. If I give you 500 bucks you're probably happy about it. If the next year I give you 500 bucks more than the previous year you ought to be even happier. After all, you have a thousand bucks. However, if you have a thousand bucks in your pockets, but I subsequently charge you $25,000 for health care, $9,000 for road repair, and another $100,000 for odds and ends that I'm no longer covering... that thousand bucks will feel pretty pathetic.

 

The GOP bill is suckering people to get excited about accepting pennies while stealing hundreds of dollars in services.