Tax Bill

[Burgold]

We were talking about this yesterday.

 

Priorities.

Donors first. Children last. Country not at all.

[tshile]

Tax cuts and aid and deficit aren't all the same thing

 

Tax cuts isn't giving people money, it's taking less.

 

I do not like what they're doing here but the left side of the issue isn't doing themselves any favors the way they discuss it.

 

Deficit is an issue of spending and collecting, not just both.

 

And the government is so wasteful I understand a sentiment of - well, here's less to waste with.

 

I don't like it, but I understand it.

[twa]

 

You still working for Russia Burgold? 

[Burgold]

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

Tax cuts and aid and deficit aren't all the same thing

I disagree. In this context each is interlinked and needs to be discussed that way.

 

If the government collects less revenue then it cuts services. If it spends without being able to pay for it a deficit is created. Each one goes hand in hand. We decide what services we need, what we don't, where to tighten our belt, etc. The purpose of taxation is to meet the public need in defense, courts, education, and all other ways the public deems necessary. What that is can, of course, change, but if you create a change in tax to almost exclusively benefit one class at the detriment to all others... that should be noted, debated, and argued.

 

Taxes don't live in a vacuum.

[visionary]

From yesterday.

[Cooked Crack]

Quote

This is a big problem. The Senate bill brings the normal corporate rate down to 20 percent — while leaving the alternative minimum rate at … 20 percent. The legislation would still allow corporations to claim a wide variety of tax credits and deductions — it just renders all them completely worthless. Companies can either take no deductions, and pay a 20 percent rate — or take lots of deductions … and pay a 20 percent rate.

With this blunder, Senate Republicans have achieved the unthinkable: They’ve written a giant corporate tax cut that many of their corporate donors do not like. As The Wall Street Journal reports:

 

Looks like these turds will have to vote on this again. Can't anger their real constituents.

[Hersh]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

I disagree. In this context each is interlinked and needs to be discussed that way.

 

If the government collects less revenue then it cuts services. If it spends without being able to pay for it a deficit is created. Each one goes hand in hand. We decide what services we need, what we don't, where to tighten our belt, etc. The purpose of taxation is to meet the public need in defense, courts, education, and all other ways the public deems necessary. What that is can, of course, change, but if you create a change in tax to almost exclusively benefit one class at the detriment to all others... that should be noted, debated, and argued.

 

Taxes don't live in a vacuum.

 

It absolutely drives me crazy that issues are constantly talked about in a vacuum by most politicians. 

4 hours ago, tshile said:

Tax cuts and aid and deficit aren't all the same thing

 

Tax cuts isn't giving people money, it's taking less.

 

I do not like what they're doing here but the left side of the issue isn't doing themselves any favors the way they discuss it.

 

Deficit is an issue of spending and collecting, not just both.

 

And the government is so wasteful I understand a sentiment of - well, here's less to waste with.

 

I don't like it, but I understand it.

 

Where is all this government waste? I'm not saying that there isn't waste, I would just like some concrete examples of items that have a real cumulative effect on the deficit. 

[Burgold]

40 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Where is all this government waste? I'm not saying that there isn't waste, I would just like some concrete examples of items that have a real cumulative effect on the deficit. 

Glib answer: every member of Congress' salary is waste.

 

More serious answer: I think waste exists all over. Certainly, there's a ton of waste in defense spending. Certainly, there's waste in paying for Trump's golf trips (how many tens of millions are we up to already if not hundreds)

 

Think of this. If Trump did not make the tax payer pay for his golf outings and protection we would have enough to pay for the CHIP program. Now, I'm not saying that the President shouldn't have a protection detail. I'm not even saying golf is bad, but to spend more than the last sixteen years of the Presidency combined in the first year he's been in office can't be construed as anything but wasteful.

[FanboyOf91]

The GOP cancer is real.

[Hersh]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

Glib answer: every member of Congress' salary is waste.

 

More serious answer: I think waste exists all over. Certainly, there's a ton of waste in defense spending. Certainly, there's waste in paying for Trump's golf trips (how many tens of millions are we up to already if not hundreds)

 

Think of this. If Trump did not make the tax payer pay for his golf outings and protection we would have enough to pay for the CHIP program. Now, I'm not saying that the President shouldn't have a protection detail. I'm not even saying golf is bad, but to spend more than the last sixteen years of the Presidency combined in the first year he's been in office can't be construed as anything but wasteful.

 

What I was getting at was the idea that "waste" as defined by politicians would ever come close to narrowing the deficits. Of course, we know they don't care at all about actual waste just on their actions of cutting the number of people that would look into fraud in a variety of areas. 

[Burgold]

10 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

What I was getting at was the idea that "waste" as defined by politicians would ever come close to narrowing the deficits. Of course, we know they don't care at all about actual waste just on their actions of cutting the number of people that would look into fraud in a variety of areas. 

That's a trickier point.

 

I am of the mind that every little bit helps and pennies do add up. So, I'm not opposed to wise spending cuts. I'm not opposed to eliminating waste where it's found, etc. Now, the question of cutting has to be counterbalanced by long term needs and prospects. For example, we can save some money by dumping the CHIP program today, but in the long haul it will cost us way more than we saved.

 

(By the way, I don't think I'm saying anything you don't know. Just continuing the point)

 

My problem with the tax cuts is that it is a foolhardy way to give a gift to the donor class that will wind up harming the country. I have nothing against corporations making more money or billionaires becoming richer, but I do believe that we have a mutual duty to the country. So, if we are giving them a gift it should at the worst do no harm and at best lift all. This tax cut looks like it will only help the 1 percent in the short run, harm everyone else in the short run and then eventually screw everyone including the ultra rich.

[Hersh]

1 minute ago, Burgold said:

That's a trickier point.

 

I am of the mind that every little bit helps and pennies do add up. So, I'm not opposed to wise spending cuts. I'm not opposed to eliminating waste where it's found, etc. Now, the question of cutting has to be counterbalanced by long term needs and prospects. For example, we can save some money by dumping the CHIP program today, but in the long haul it will cost us way more than we saved.

 

(By the way, I don't think I'm saying anything you don't know. Just continuing the point)

 

My problem with the tax cuts is that it is a foolhardy way to give a gift to the donor class that will wind up harming the country. I have nothing against corporations making more money or billionaires becoming richer, but I do believe that we have a mutual duty to the country. So, if we are giving them a gift it should at the worst do no harm and at best lift all. This tax cut looks like it will only help the 1 percent in the short run, harm everyone else in the short run and then eventually screw everyone including the ultra rich.

 

The tax cuts are atrocious in so many ways. We should be looking at ways to add revenue coming in and not decreasing it. It's insane to cut taxes when the economy is doing well and we are at very low unemployment with a lot of jobs currently open. This is a massive giveaway and I think most people in "middle America" actually agree this is all for the rich.  

[DogofWar1]

3 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

Looks like these turds will have to vote on this again. Can't anger their real constituents.

That is a major screw up and I wonder if it kills the bill.  Seems like once they loaded it up to get the holdouts, there was no way to pass it without AMT.  If they get rid of AMT, it probably costs more than 1.5T, and the bill cannot meet the requirements it needs to re:deficit/debt.  If they keep the AMT, then their cut is basically setting a flat corporate tax rate of 20%, which all the corps out there won't like because that's basically what they pay right now.

 

Gosh I hope that screw up kills this bill.

[tshile]

7 hours ago, Burgold said:

I disagree. In this context each is interlinked and needs to be discussed that way.

 

...

 

Taxes don't live in a vacuum.

 

Right but a tax cut isn't giving anyone anything. It's taking less.

 

Tax credits are giving people stuff.

 

And deficit is a combination of how much do you take and for what is it, or to whom is it given.

 

How you talk about these things matter, if you care about perception and differing opinions.

 

That's all I was saying. Most people don't give two ****s about differing opinions, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

3 hours ago, Hersh said:

 

Where is all this government waste? I'm not saying that there isn't waste, I would just like some concrete examples of items that have a real cumulative effect on the deficit. 

Some of us have worked for or with the government and seen the asinine wastes for ourselves.

 

You probably don't believe us though.

 

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

More serious answer: I think waste exists all over. Certainly, there's a ton of waste in defense spending. Certainly, there's waste in paying for Trump's golf trips (how many tens of millions are we up to already if not hundreds)

This is your more serious answer to gov't waste?

[Burgold]

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

 

 

This is your more serious answer to gov't waste?

What? You don't think that there's waste in defense spending? Or in Trump's discretionary weekly taxpayer funded 5 star vacations?

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

What? You don't think that there's waste in defense spending? Or in Trump's discretionary weekly taxpayer funded 5 star vacations?

Excuse me?

 

You responded to a question about waste in the government and your "serious" point about it was presidential trips and defense spending?

 

The **** everyone knows is a waste?

 

That's what I was laughing at.

 

The way some of you all talk about how the gov't works is laughable. You either have never worked for it, with it, or are part of the problem and oblivious to it.

Edited December 4, 2017 by tshile

[Predicto]

There is waste and inefficiency in every single large organization that has ever existed.  Pretending that you can eliminate the deficit by rooting out waste is utter nonsense.  

 

It's just a semantic way to avoid the gorilla in the room - the explosion in national debt that WILL come when you cut taxes without any change to entitlements. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Predicto

[LadySkinsFan]

Well, Little Marco Rubio is already making reduced "entitlements" noises .

[Hersh]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

 

.

 

Some of us have worked for or with the government and seen the asinine wastes for ourselves.

 

You probably don't believe us though.

 

I think everyone believes there is government waste. However, waste as defined by politicians just like pork barrel projects are significantly less than the deficit and most politicians really don’t care. 

It would be great if there was a real collective effort to go after government waste but it won’t happen. 

 

 

2 hours ago, tshile said:

Excuse me?

 

You responded to a question about waste in the government and your "serious" point about it was presidential trips and defense spending?

 

The **** everyone knows is a waste?

 

That's what I was laughing at.

 

The way some of you all talk about how the gov't works is laughable. You either have never worked for it, with it, or are part of the problem and oblivious to it.

why don’t you educate based on your experiences with something other than vague references to waste. 

[LD0506]

[visionary]

 

[LadySkinsFan]

Then we're headed to a reconciliation vote. Now's the time to start lobbying those Senators whose compromises are about to get trashed and tell them to get a backbone. Collins, McCain, Murkowski, and the rest. 

 

Shame on them.

[SoulSkin]

If anyone missed it, a kind of of funny thing happened to McCain today on twitter. He tweeted out he was 74 followers away from 3 million, and was shilling to achieve that 'big milestone'. Then he lost over 22,000 followers. Wish it had been a lot more. 

[tshile]

2 hours ago, Predicto said:

There is waste and inefficiency in every single large organization that has ever existed.  

Of course.

 

Degree of waste, for what purpose, and who funds it is obviously different.

 

As is one's stake/say in any of it.

[tshile]

56 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Then we're headed to a reconciliation vote. Now's the time to start lobbying those Senators whose compromises are about to get trashed and tell them to get a backbone. Collins, McCain, Murkowski, and the rest. 

 

Shame on them.

 

I don't even want to give them credit.

 

They should have known they were never going to get those things. 

 

Maybe they did and it's all a show to play victim to their constituents.