2018 Comprehensive NFL Draft Thread

[The Consigliere]

7 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

For me there's 2 things to that. 

 

We don't have the line to begin with to accommodate a top back. Barkley's good. But he's no Zeke. And the latter wouldn't be half as successful in Washington for me as he is n Dallas. 

 

And I just don't personally see that significant a drop off from two- four (presume we're talking Guice/ Jones/ Johnson) as you go down compared to other, real thin groups like FS, OL, 3-tech under DT's etc. to justify it. 

 

Hail. 

 

*Edit* Nor do I trust our offensive staff to utilize a top back fully regardless. But that's less of an issue as I'll be surprised if they're back this time next year but that's for a future discussion. 

 

A tale of two takes. I agree with everything but the underlined for the most part.

 

Just about every scout, every tape geek, and every analytics guy I've listened to view him as a better prospect then Zeke, period. Much better threat in the passing game, and just as good of a runner and probably better. Zeke's great, but Barkley's regarded as a defintively better prospect.

 

As to the rest, I kinda agree. We have a poor run blocking line, used to be automatic that top prospect OL's were great run blockers, because it's the easier and more enjoyable part of blocking, but apparently the switch to spread and pass happy offenses has lead to more and more OL's who are proficient in pass blocking but raw in the run game. Odd. Regardless Zeke did indeed fall into a perfect situation and none of these RB's are likely to fall into one as ideal in comparison. 

 

I also agree that at RB, if you aren't getting Barkley, you're probably still okay if you're landing a Guide, a Michel, a Chubb or a Penny. After that it's more risky, but those guys are pretty legit and it's definitely true that other positions are a bit more shallow in terms of top end talent analogous to the skill and talent level of the big 5 RB's as compared to the rest of the class. 

 

I'd much rather trade down to take our RB, or trade up from our 2nd round slot. There are five guys, we need one of them, we don't HAVE TO have Guice or anyone in particular from what I can see. The grades with the four guys after Barkley are generally pretty close for most with differing preferences (for me its Chubb and Guice, then a drop off to Michel and Penny in either order, but a lot seem to like Michel, I do buy that hype). 

 

[The Consigliere]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not a Casserly guy.  But he''s not alone about the first tier of RBs in this draft. 

 

If I run with Brugler's rankings, he has 4 RBs ranked 1st or 2nd.  2 additional RBs who are straight 2nd rounders.  1 who is a 2nd or 3rd.  So that's 7 in the first two rounds. Hines-Walton-Freeman could go in the third round maybe they can fall to the 4th.  If we go to the 4th round rankings our pool is:  Kelly, D. Williams, Ballage, Scarbrough

 

 

I can't for the life of me understand the Jones hype. Just reconvenes me that scouts are idiots. The work has been done. He has no proven track record at all as a pass catcher, so the satellite back argument is theoretical at best. He was never utilized in the passing game and when he was, he was ineffective. In the run game he stinks unless he's running off tackle.

 

Explosive in open space? yes. But then again, so are most of these guys, and I can get Hines 50-75 picks after Jones, and he's a better all around back. The Jones thing is just flat out idiotic. 

 

As for the rankings and what not, it does make sense. Chubb was neck and neck with Barkley as the top RB in '18 and he actually was the top RB in the '17 class if not the for knee injury, then he blows up the combine suggesting he's back athletically. Michel is explosive and highly productive and great in pass pro. Guice is a throwback monster with pass game chops that was sabotaged by a moribund offense and Penny was easily a monster at SDSU. All of these guys have the talent to justify a first round selection in a traditional league after Barkley but it isn't traditional anymore. In the modern NFL, probably the only guys I'd take in round 1 would be Barkley, Chubb and Guice. Michel and Penny have some dings for me that would make them second rounders. 

4 hours ago, RWJ said:

Exactly!

 

Yep, or not waste a third and a fantastic slot corner in Fuller for a mediocre QB when there's a ridiculous FA QB class available for stop gap purposes. How much more flexibility would we have had if we still had our third? Very frustrating. 

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, DeaconBlue said:

 In 2016 Fat rob was in baby shoes and and Perrine wasn't even here yet. The Scherff , moses side was just coming into their own in 2016 anyways.2015 doesn't even count when it comes to our current backfield. For me it's simple troubleshooting. You can't test one part if another part it depends on was broken.People hate it but I still have to point out how bad our injury issues were last year, it really was an outlier. I really believe that our o-line is good when healthy. Could use a little love at LG but still very good. No one is gonna move me off of that opinion. Surprise me though if you can. Believe me if I thought we could draft the next AP I'm all over it but I just don't see it. Outside of Barkley it's a good not great RB draft as I see it. I don't know that any RB we draft this year(outside of Barkley) is THAT much better than what we already have.I believe that. 

 

I believe you're wrong on that.

 

What we have is literally a 1st percentile talent in terms of athleticism in Rob Kelley (he's 1000% work hard, and credit it to him for it, everything he's achieved he's earned through hard work, but in terms of talent, beyond work ethic, he doesn't really have any), and Perine isn't much better testing poorly across the board in everything other than pure physical strength. 

 

Chubb and Penny tested through the roof in athleticism, Guice did well and Michel was solid and miles better than what we have in house. We literally have bottom of the barrel athleticism at the position. Every one of the big 5 is a significantly better athlete than anyone on the roster (even Thompson isn't as athletic as any of them other than being a bit speedier than Michel).

 

If you don't think these guys are better than Barkley or special in that Barkley mold. Agreed. If you think they're nothing much more than we already have, well, there you're dead wrong. They are WAY WAY more talented than Kelley or Perine, and a bit more talented than Thompson and all have 3 down potential that Thompson doesn't have the frame/BMI to handle. 

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

I have news for you - they are virtually all high maintenance. This kid worked his tail off and played injured much of the season. He got himself back to close to 100% in time for the bowl game in which he played very much like he did in 2016. This is stuff that gets leaked about this time to drive a players value down for a team tat wants him but does not have a high enough draft pick. 

 

Or it could be personnel guys with teams that pick early in the draft who are giving honest takes.  And these takes could be old too.  We don't really know.  It's not Guice's fault he had such a rough childhood, but it could have stunted him and the league is hard on guys who aren't ready for it.

[Going Commando]

6 hours ago, bh32 said:

How many years have we all complained about them ignoring the lines? yet when the opportunity is there everyone wants the flashy pick..I say fix the lines and worry about the RB or DB next year..

 

Well we should take BPA.  Don't care if that means RB/DB or a lineman, I want to go BPA.

 

I think there is a chance that could be Minkah.  I think there is a better chance he's gone and the BPA is Payne.  I think it could even be Ridley.

 

You're right that winning the LoS is essential to success, but you need good players everywhere and going BPA is the safest bet for making sure you actually get a good player with your draft pick.  You can't take the success of any pick for granted, especially not when you're trying to patch a hole and potentially drafting a reach.  BPA gives you better odds in a very speculative game.

 

If Minkah gets picked top 12 and Payne ends up being the BPA, I'm happy with the result.  I have a feeling you're going to get your wish and he'll be the guy.  I don't get why everyone is so negative with him.  His film is excellent.  He's clean.  If we end up with him and the fanbase freaks out, it'll be like it was when we drafted Scherff all over again.  A whole lot of consternation until people see first hand how good he actually is and the guy ends up in the Probowl and we field top five defensive fronts for the next several seasons.

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

Reading through the last 3 pages of this thread, I have to think the conversations about OL/RB were def sparked by this hilarious NFLN Live draft that took place tonight . (For the record, I love Will Hernandez but obviously not at 13).

 

The reality is that we have very solid/young OL talent outside of our gaping hole at LG.  The other painfully obviously reality is that Jay’s scheme renders all of his OL to be completely one-dimensional.  It happened every year he called plays in Cinci- and it happened the moment he came to DC. (Not to get off topic, but this is my biggest worry with Alex Smith at the helm.  Teams are gonna stack.)  

 

For all ShannyRats faults, he will go down as a running game GURU— He frightened all of us (don’t say he didn’t) by allocating undersized/fast-moving/relatively-unknown lineman to fit his scheme. But it somehow worked— and we didn’t ask questions! He leaves, so does the run game.

 

I’m a Payne guy (over Vea) but that also has to do with the fact that I think guys like Minkah and Roquan will be gone. (BTW- Roquan-Top-10 talk seems to have died down immensely in recent weeks and I have no idea why?)

 

Derwin James/Vea have higher ceilings due to their size/athleticism, but the guys I mentioned above approach the game like HOFers.  With regards to James/Vea, let’s be real-- this organization doesn’t have the stability or leadership to develop guys with that much untapped talent.

 

Guice has become the most interesting prospect in the draft for me. I love his game. I love the Hyundai mini-doc and how he only plays ball because his dad (who got shot in the face in a diner when Derrius was 7) told him at a young age he would be a football player.  I love his 10-minute appearance on GMFB.  He’s articulate, quick-witted, confident but non-egotistical, and flat-out inspiring when he speaks.  Football seems to be his personal therapy— when you match that with someone who doesn’t drink/smoke/party to cope, it’s a powerful force.  

 

“Big” personalities can be miscronscued and immediately lumped into “Odell-Type” categories.  While I don’t see that right now (but the media/recent reports are certainly pushing it for one reason or another) it still becomes a gamble in the draft.  After tons of interview stuff, I personally view Guice as a guy with a positive attitude and a face-of-the-franchise ability.

 

IMO, Minkah/Roquan/Payne look to be the only guys with value who may be available at 13 and will continue to evolve/thrive 10+ years in the league.  Kerrigan was our safest 1st round pick in recent history, and I’d love to follow that formula... but at some point we need a “true” spark-plug to ignite this franchise! ....

 

Lets STACK this D!!

 

[actorguy1]

If we stay at 13 and pick defense it needs to be player who can stay on the field when we are in nickle. 60%of the time teams have a third receiver in and will try to throw and run out of it. Not sure Payne or Vea help with that

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

@Skinsinparadise Unless you want an under tackle. 3-tech is REAL thin on the ground. Have to take one of them early if that's your want. 

 

Hail. 

 

Unless they are enamored with Hurst or Bryan, a 3-5 technique guy isn't what I am clamoring for right now but 0-1 technique -- and you got some who can fall to the 3-4th round.  I'd rather pick from the Settle, Hill, Senat, Norton, the kid from Connecticut, etc pool as opposed to going through the 3rd tier pool Ballage types at RB.

 

I've seen enough of this FO comb through the 3rd tier type RBs to believe they don't have a good feel for it.  In theory, I'd love to get the top of the line at every position.  But you got to use FA to fill some of your needs and thus far they've ignored DT like the plague in terms of going for high end upgrades at that position for years -- I just don't believe in bailing them out on that front for reaching for a guy especially at nose.  I'd always go for a stud 3 technique if available but if this FO is enamored with lets say Hurst they have been very good at keeping it under wraps they seem to be sniffing at nose. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

 

As for the rankings and what not, it does make sense. Chubb was neck and neck with Barkley as the top RB in '18 and he actually was the top RB in the '17 class if not the for knee injury, then he blows up the combine suggesting he's back athletically. Michel is explosive and highly productive and great in pass pro. Guice is a throwback monster with pass game chops that was sabotaged by a moribund offense and Penny was easily a monster at SDSU. All of these guys have the talent to justify a first round selection in a traditional league after Barkley but it isn't traditional anymore. In the modern NFL, probably the only guys I'd take in round 1 would be Barkley, Chubb and Guice. Michel and Penny have some dings for me that would make them second rounders. 

 

Yep, or not waste a third and a fantastic slot corner in Fuller for a mediocre QB when there's a ridiculous FA QB class available for stop gap purposes. How much more flexibility would we have had if we still had our third? Very frustrating. 

 

I agree with most of your overriding point.  I like Jones but don't love where I am fired up enough to debate him. Outside of Thompson as far as I recall all our RBs are 4.65 range guys and that even includes Bibbs who some see as the quick one in the mix.  We can for example draft Billy Price but IMO its not going to turn around the running game with our current Jags.  You need a LT AND a RB. 

 

I like Alex Smith more than you do but I do agree with where you are going with it.  That is, you got a 34 year old QB now so how much more of his prime you are going to get -- maybe 2 years?    So you have a win now verdict.   Otherwise, you are making a trade were you are giving up youth just to tread water in the 8-8 range for a little while?  If so IMO that's pathetic.  To double down on that point, some beat guys are suggesting Dan is impatient and the powers that be are in a playoffs or bust mode otherwise jobs will be lost.

 

Meanwhile, from what I've noticed national prognosticators-Vegas is underwhelmed by their oddly conservative FA season considering the backdrop of all this and seem to be predicting that the team is much more likely to slide closer to the bottom of the barrel as opposed to rise above mediocrity. 

 

At the moment it does feel like the perfect storm for missing the playoffs.  That's why part of me wonders if they are going to be ultra aggressive in this draft including trading 2019 picks to upgrade 2018.  And a FA move is on the way.  But who knows?

 

The running game will be an interesting showcase because they all seem to be screaming they are on it.  But if they give it the short shrift as they typically do.  And lets say the Eagles who already easily have a better running game goes for one of the top guys and it works for them -- couple that with the Eagles already having the better D line than we do and they regardless beefed that position up too during the off season -- it will come off with an odd feel of neglect from this team juxtaposed with the Superbowl Champions (with less cap room no less) having the air that they are the team (not the Redskins) with the much higher level of urgency.

4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

If Minkah gets picked top 12 and Payne ends up being the BPA, I'm happy with the result.  I have a feeling you're going to get your wish and he'll be the guy.  I don't get why everyone is so negative with him.  His film is excellent.  He's clean.  If we end up with him and the fanbase freaks out, it'll be like it was when we drafted Scherff all over again.  A whole lot of consternation until people see first hand how good he actually is and the guy ends up in the Probowl and we field top five defensive fronts for the next several seasons.

 

I am a BPA guy, too.  To this point, I still think its going to be Derwin James or Fitzpatrick.  One will fall. Fingers crossed.  I am with Cooley on Payne -- like he said if he can pick the one worse case scenario at 13 that he would hate, it would be taking Payne at 13.  His opinion (I agree) it would be taking a B level player at an A level spot.   If they trade down and take Payne, different story.

[wilco_holland]

People talk about Guice beeing silly and immature. You remember our last silly RB's?

 

Southeast Jerome? Dolla Bill? Sheriff Gonna Getcha? Dolemite Jenkins? Choo Choo?

 

This is where the óver-scouting and misinformation comes in place. Sure, he might not be a workaholic that already has a pro-athlete mindset and workschedule. Newsflash, not a lot of college guys have that. A lot of young athletes in any sport make it to the pro's pure on talent. In youth competition you can outbeat people by just having better physical tools or talent, but once you reach the pro's that changes quickly. Everybody is highly talented, so it's more about the details.

 

When he comes into your organisation, it's the teams job to support him. Let stenght coaches work with him on good training schedule, let position coaches teach him to watch more game film, let a dietician give him food advice. 

 

To me people are just either talking him down because they like him (make him drop in the draft) or over analysing draft guys. Having a different personlity is not straight up bad.

49 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Unless they are enamored with Hurst or Bryan, a 3-5 technique guy isn't what I am clamoring for right now

 

Hurst might be an option in the second. He is getting really cold as an prospect. The last couple of weeks I see him go from top 15 on draft boards to around 50. Same in mock drafts, from sure first rounder to almost always second rounder. 

 

That's just something that happens durning the draft proces. Prospects get hot and other get cold. Most of the time there or no good reason for it.

[fordranger76]

So much smoke this time of year. We are totally all in on Baker Mayfield and no one even knows it yet haha.

[bakedtater1]

1 minute ago, fordranger76 said:

So much smoke this time of year. We are totally all in on Baker Mayfield and no one even knows it yet haha.

Duuuuh it is the 4/20 holidays ya know lol..

[mistertim]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am with Cooley on Payne -- like he said if he can pick the one worse case scenario at 13 that he would hate, it would be taking Payne at 13.  His opinion (I agree) it would be taking a B level player at an A level spot.   If they trade down and take Payne, different story.

 

I think Payne would be an "ok" pick with our 2nd rounder but wouldn't touch him before that. 

 

@stevemcqueen1not sure which film you watched of Payne but you sure it was him? I've watched every cut up of his games I can find and I see a completely average prospect at best. Obviously high effort guy, has decent burst off the line, every once in a while shows a pass rushing chop, but just never gets it done. Gets taken out and pushed back easily by double teams many times, gets taken out of plays by single blockers as well. Mediocre at actually getting penetration but it seems like he should be good at it because he's so active so IMO it's a bit of an illusion (basically like a guy who has tons of work windows open on his computer so it seems like he's getting a bunch of stuff done but really isn't).

 

So he isn't very good at anchoring and holding the line, especially against double teams, and also isn't especially good at penetrating...so what exactly is he really good at? His stats say not much. They're some of the worst I've ever seen of any "highly ranked" DL guy coming out (grand total of 5 TFL and 3 sacks in 3 years) and if you look at the charts of DL which compares drafted guys and takes into account their college stats compared to their NFL success he basically has a house build in bust land (others have posted the links to the charts). 

 

Usually for a NT you want a guy who can either hold up against double teams and clog the lanes or who can shoot gaps well and get into the backfield (usually depending on the type of 3-4 you run) or if you're super lucky, a guy who can do both. Payne's film and stats show little ability to do either. And this is a guy we want to take at 13 overall? IMO he's purely a creation of media hype because he's a Bama guy and because of his play in the bowl game. 

[SWFLSkins]

 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

59 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Unless they are enamored with Hurst or Bryan, a 3-5 technique guy isn't what I am clamoring for right now but 0-1 technique -- and you got some who can fall to the 3-4th round.  I'd rather pick from the Settle, Hill, Senat, Norton, the kid from Connecticut, etc pool as opposed to going through the 3rd tier pool Ballage types at RB.

 

.....

2

 

Talking DPB, Senat's a pet cat of his. One of his 5 favourite players the entire draft. 

 

Personally not as high on Vea as many. On the one hand, he's got a rare combination of power, athleticism and movement for such a big guy. On the other, hus discipline, technique and motor can be iffy. The consistency is to up and down. But you can't help but get seduced by those traits. Payne and Phillips I'd have in a heartbeat. Same with Senat. Throw in Poona Ford who definitely has 1-tech traits. They're you're top echelon talent wise in a very deep 1-tech class. Hill, Fatukasi, Nnadi. All be great early day 3 picks/ 3rd rounders if you could get one back. (DAMN YOU Allen for the needless QB move.). Don't get the love for Settle at all personally within this thread. 1 gap NT that thinks he's a 3-tech. But can't 2 gap. Or anchor too well. Decide what the F you are! And man is he out of condition for a big guy. Like a potato with straws in it. There's traits to work with. But he needs a lot of rounding out the pro-level. Have to be a day 3 take for me. Can't justify a top 3 rounder on someone not starting. 

 

Hail. 

[SWFLSkins]

 

 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am a BPA guy, too.  To this point, I still think its going to be Derwin James or Fitzpatrick.  One will fall. Fingers crossed.  I am with Cooley on Payne -- like he said if he can pick the one worse case scenario at 13 that he would hate, it would be taking Payne at 13.  His opinion (I agree) it would be taking a B level player at an A level spot.   If they trade down and take Payne, different story.

 

I disagree with Cooley, I don't think Payne is a big reach at 13.  I think he's actually one of the better nose tackle prospects to come out in a few years.  And I think he's certainly athletic and versatile enough to play 2, 2i, and 3 tech and that, even though he's not that tall, he's got the arm length to two gap at the 4.

 

Lance Zierlein has Payne as the 7th best graded player in the class, and I am in much closer agreement with him than Cooley.  I trust his eye more and think he's a lot better at doing this than Cooley.  Zierlein watches everyone and has been doing it for years.  Cooley is more of a dilettante.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

52 minutes ago, fordranger76 said:

So much smoke this time of year. We are totally all in on Baker Mayfield and no one even knows it yet haha.

 

You know, and this would probably cause a board meltdown, but IF you were completely wiped out at 13 of the top guys on your stack, it wouldn't be THAT mad an idea to take, let's say Jackson, if the 5 other QB's had gone and you really like what he could develop into. 

 

Just if that option is Allen in that scenario ..... either pick another position or trade the Hell back! 

 

Hail. 

[wilco_holland]

From Peter King (SI.com)

 

There will be some trades in this draft that might seem one-sided. Several team officials told me in the past few days that they value Day 2 picks (rounds two and three) so highly that they’d be willing to take slightly less in compensation to move down. Where could this come into play? Cleveland (four), Indianapolis (six), Baltimore (16), Seattle (18), New England (23, 31), New Orleans (27), Philadelphia (32). “This is not your typical draft,” said one veteran club official Sunday. “The second, third and even fourth rounds are gold. You can take less than the trade-value chart says and still make a very good trade if you get multiple picks in those rounds.”

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

6 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

.....

 

Yep, or not waste a third and a fantastic slot corner in Fuller for a mediocre QB when there's a ridiculous FA QB class available for stop gap purposes. How much more flexibility would we have had if we still had our third? Very frustrating. 

1

 

MASSIVELY frustrating. And more than a tad annoying. 

 

Still can't get my head around that move. 

 

Hail. 

[cakmoney61]

8 hours ago, bowhunter said:

I'd love to pick up Guice, but RBs do have a short half life. Mean guards last a lot longer. We really haven't seen what fit Rob, Perine, and Bibbs can do behind an intact and competent O- line. Thursday night will be interesting. Top 5 Talent might slip to us, trade offers flying,  I need to keep an open mind because I'm sure my constantly changing mancrush won't be picked (or if he is, I'll have buyers remorse)

 

Ain't that the truth!!!  A tortured, yet beautiful, state of mind every year before, during, and after the NFL draft.

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I disagree with Cooley, I don't think Payne is a big reach at 13.  I think he's actually one of the better nose tackle prospects to come out in a few years.  And I think he's certainly athletic and versatile enough to play 2, 2i, and 3 tech and that, even though he's not that tall, he's got the arm length to two gap at the 4.

 

Lance Zierlein has Payne as the 7th best graded player in the class, and I am in much closer agreement with him than Cooley.  I trust his eye more and think he's a lot better at doing this than Cooley.  Zierlein watches everyone and has been doing it for years.  Cooley is more of a dilettante.

 

Cooley is far from alone on the Payne isn't worth the 13th pick in the draft drill. He has a lot of company.  I've paid attention to who likes whom. As for Payne another guy who really loves him is Pauline.  I am ok with Zierlein but for me he's not been one of the heck if this dude likes a guy or doesn't like a guy I better take a 2nd look.  But to each their own on that.  As for the NFL Network guys, Jeremiah is who I'd trust the most, not that he's down on Payne but I find it interesting he bumped him to the 2nd round in his last mock.   Personally, if the Redskins don't take Payne. I'd guess he ends up in the 20 range.

 

Cooley specifically has been dead on accurate on D lineman that have come through this door.  So on somethings I don't take Cooley seriously but its hard for me to miss how he's challenged the point of view of the FO on some players and was proven right.  Though I admit, most of us I am sure gravitate towards the people who agree with us -- so it becomes self fulfilling in a way -- speaking of which Cooley just gushing just now on D. James and Fitzpatrick saying they are slam dunk studs, he'd take either one in a heartbeat and not think twice if they fall to #13.  I am with him on that, too.

 

I don't dislike Payne as a prospect.  Last year, the guy I kept beating up was Malik McDowell.  So I got not animus towards Payne in that same vein.  But I hate the idea of reaching for a guy that you can likely get later in the draft and pick up a third. 

 

36 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

Talking DPB, Senat's a pet cat of his. One of his 5 favourite players the entire draft. 

 

Personally not as high on Vea as many. On the one hand, he's got a rare combination of power, athleticism and movement for such a big guy. On the other, hus discipline, technique and motor can be iffy. The consistency is to up and down. But you can't help but get seduced by those traits. Payne and Phillips I'd have in a heartbeat. Same with Senat. Throw in Poona Ford who definitely has 1-tech traits. They're you're top echelon talent wise in a very deep 1-tech class. Hill, Fatukasi, Nnadi. All be great early day 3 picks/ 3rd rounders if you could get one back. (DAMN YOU Allen for the needless QB move.). Don't get the love for Settle at all personally within this thread. 

Hail. 

 

I wouldn't hate Vea at 13 though he isn't my preference.   I beat up Settle some on this thread. The very deep 1-tech class is actually my operative point.  I think its deeper than the 4th round RBs -- that's my point in a nutshell. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Eagles reporter

 

Jimmy Kempski‏ @JimmyKempski 18h18 hours ago

More

If you're an Eagles' fan I would say the following are the ideal outcomes for the first round of the draft for the other 3 NFCE teams: Giants: Draft Saquon. Cowboys: Panic trade up for WR. Redskins: Allow Bruce Allen to keep making decisions.

 

Keim covers some draft stuff here, nothing new to me, rehash

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/36346/if-four-qbs-go-in-first-round-redskins-defense-will-benefit

 

 

[Going Commando]

42 minutes ago, mistertim said:

not sure which film you watched of Payne but you sure it was him? I've watched every cut up of his games I can find and I see a completely average prospect at best. Obviously high effort guy, has decent burst off the line, every once in a while shows a pass rushing chop, but just never gets it done. Gets taken out and pushed back easily by double teams many times, gets taken out of plays by single blockers as well. Mediocre at actually getting penetration but it seems like he should be good at it because he's so active so IMO it's a bit of an illusion (basically like a guy who has tons of work windows open on his computer so it seems like he's getting a bunch of stuff done but really isn't).

 

I don't see his film the same way at all.  I see a guy who draws a double more frequently than any other DL in the class that I've watched and he almost always wins.  He got doubled even more than Marvin Austin did back at UNC, and Austin was one of the most frequent doubles I'd ever seen.

 

Went over this criticism using the Georgia game a couple of days with another poster and determined that there were about 17 snaps where he was doubled on a between the tackles run that wasn't a Jake Fromm option and he either held his ground or won outright on 14 of them.  Losing three snaps doesn't mean he gets pushed back easily by doubles, it means he's dominated the line of scrimmage.  I'm going to sit down and do that with his other cut ups and, given Alabama fielded some of the best run defenses in CFB history the past three years that he was playing for them, I bet I'm going to find a similar win rate.

 

His first step isn't just decent, it's elite for the position.  He is frequently the first man off the line of scrimmage.  Like this:

 

 

You see that OL's head snapping back from the initial punch and you pair those violent hands with that first step and you have a very explosive athlete.  And the eye test is backed up by his drill times.  4.91 40 is outstanding for a nose and his 10 yard split was actually a hundredth of a second fast than Joey Bosa's and only three hundredths slower than Solomon Thomas's.

 

He's not faking it out there on the field either.  He's generating interior pressure, soaking up doubles, and controlling the middle of the line of scrimmage on almost all of his snaps.  He gets schemed around and still wins.

 

I think you guys are too hung up on TFL and sack numbers, and in being so, you're misunderstanding his position and role in Alabama's defense.  There are no traditional counting stats that capture what Payne does for Bama's defense.  This play right here doesn't generate a stat for Payne even though he's the one who makes it:

 

He beats the double at the point of attack and closes down both A gaps, forcing the runner to go off schedule and try and bounce it through the B gap, which leads to 33 getting a hand on the ball and forcing a fumble which Bama recovered.  They then go down the field and score a TD and go up 21-0 and salt the game away by the end of the first quarter.

 

THIS is what DaRon Payne does for you.  He makes everyone in your defensive front better.  His individual impact is enormous.  He's good, one of the best defenders in the class, and he'd make our defense way better.

[Going Commando]

54 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley is far from alone on the Payne isn't worth the 13th pick in the draft drill. He has a lot of company.  I've paid attention to who likes whom. As for Payne another guy who really loves him is Pauline.  I am ok with Zierlein but for me he's not been one of the heck if this dude likes a guy or doesn't like a guy I better take a 2nd look.  But to each their own on that.  As for the NFL Network guys, Jeremiah is who I'd trust the most, not that he's down on Payne but I find it interesting he bumped him to the 2nd round in his last mock.   Personally, if the Redskins don't take Payne. I'd guess he ends up in the 20 range.

 

Jeremiah seems to have changed his stance on Payne then, and I'm not sure why.  His original take was that Payne was the best Alabama DT since Marcell Dareus and that he was better than Thomlinson, Robinson, and Reed.  And I think he was right in that first assessment and that he shouldn't be second guessing it or dropping him in his mocks.