Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Great analysis. I really believe people get entirely too hung up on getting "value" for the specific draft pick - oh, that guy is not good value there. It's great to worry about value when you are doing mock. But value does not translate to winning games. You need to get the guys that can help you win. That means that sometimes you may "reach" for a player. But is it really a reach just because a bunch of talking heads say it's a reach? I was listening to Bill Polian the other day and he was making this exact point. This whole idea of "value" in a draft pick is really only a big deal to people reporting on the draft. There is just so much more to it. Also, many teams boards will look nothing like what all the "experts" posting mock drafts have. If the Redskins see RB as a primary need - a view I do not think anyone would really disagree with here - then you can't risk missing out the guys that appear to be able to make an instant impact that you feel can make a major change to your team because it's not a "good value". Some good points. To play off of this point, I think BPA converges nicely with need when it comes to RB. I agree with Casserly that there are 6 RBs with 1st round value or close enough to it. And I agree with the scouts who talked to McGinn who said its a great class of RBs. The best analogy I can think of its like going to a restaurant known for making killer good pies. The dessert cart comes and there are 6 slices left. If you let all that pie go and instead go for their cookies -- you are missing the opportunity to have the house specialty. The argument to me isn't hey well the cookies aren't bad? Yeah the cookies are fine. But I want the house specialty. And in our case the house specialty perfectly fits our appetite. If we are shopping in the Ballage, Adams, J. Kelly, Carter aisle of RBs -- the odds we find a game changer are much more remote than going for one of the top guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 If Charlie has 6 first round grades on RB's this class I have to seriously question his evaluating. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: Yes, but if we had Vea our run defense should be pretty stout with him and Allen . Watching a live mock on NFL Network (Brooks, Jeremiah. Mooch, C. Davis), Vea went to the Dolphins at 11. Redskins took Will Hernandez. Hernandez is a stud but 13 for me is rich for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 57 minutes ago, mistertim said: Ugh. Can you imagine if the Giants got Barkley and the Eagles got Guice? Twice a year we'd have to face each of those guys along with Zeke. That could be ugly. I can't imagine the Giants not taking a QB drafting this high personally. Unless they get their trade back with Buffalo. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Just now, Skinsinparadise said: Watching a live mock on NFL Network (Brooks, Jeremiah. Mooch, C. Davis), Vea went to the Dolphins at 11. Redskins took Will Hernandez. Hernandez is a stud but 13 for me is rich for him. Yeah i thought the same thing..now if they could trade back get Payne,pick up a third rounder and pick one of the top guards in the second would be more beneficial to the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said: If Charlie has 6 first round grades on RB's this class I have to seriously question his evaluating. Hail. I am not a Casserly guy. But he''s not alone about the first tier of RBs in this draft. If I run with Brugler's rankings, he has 4 RBs ranked 1st or 2nd. 2 additional RBs who are straight 2nd rounders. 1 who is a 2nd or 3rd. So that's 7 in the first two rounds. Hines-Walton-Freeman could go in the third round maybe they can fall to the 4th. If we go to the 4th round rankings our pool is: Kelly, D. Williams, Ballage, Scarbrough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 They need to finish building the OL and DL before worrying about a RB in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Just now, bh32 said: Yeah i thought the same thing..now if they could trade back get Payne,pick up a third rounder and pick one of the top guards in the second would be more beneficial to the team I think you'd have to take your interior linemen first round if you want a top guy. Wynn and Hernandez will more than likely go the 20's. Nelson top 10. James Daniels I doubt makes it to our second. Even if you look at Connor Williams to flip inside you'd probably need to move back up to the high second/ late first. But I really like the scenario if it played out like that. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, bh32 said: Yeah i thought the same thing..now if they could trade back get Payne,pick up a third rounder and pick one of the top guards in the second would be more beneficial to the team Yeah guard-center is really good in this draft. Ragnow, Price, Daniels, Wynn, Hernandez, Corbett, etc are intriguing. I actually wouldn't hate to trade down and come out of the first two first rounds with both a RB and OG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said: I think you'd have to take your interior linemen first round if you want a top guy. Wynn and Hernandez will more than likely go the 20's. Nelson top 10. James Daniels I doubt makes it to our second. Even if you look at Connor Williams to flip inside you'd probably need to move back up to the high second/ late first. But I really like the scenario if it played out like that. Hail. You would still have Price and Ragnow still available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, bh32 said: They need to finish building the OL and DL before worrying about a RB in my opinion IMO you are more likely to get a good D lineman in this draft especially of the nose variety than a RB in the 4th round. Heck I'd even rather go O line in RD 1 than D line. The one thing I like about not getting a RB this year is it probably spells the end of Bruce if his job is really on the line. They aren't seriously contending IMO with the ragtag RB crew they got now. The irony of Doug playing up how bad they want to find a RB this off season and they again go fishing in the mid to late rounds for RB and it again fails (while the Eagles slice up our defense with Guice, etc) -- its the perfect swan song IMO to lead to a new head of personnel. And if so I'll see it as losing a battle to win the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I am not a Casserly guy. But he''s not alone about the first tier of RBs in this draft. If I run with Brugler's rankings, he has 4 RBs ranked 1st or 2nd. 2 additional RBs who are straight 2nd rounders. 1 who is a 2nd or 3rd. So that's 7 in the first two rounds. Hines-Walton-Freeman could go in the third round maybe they can fall to the 4th. If we go to the 4th round rankings our pool is: Kelly, D. Williams, Ballage, Scarbrough All of which is far removed from Charlie and his 6 first round grades. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 How many years have we all complained about them ignoring the lines? yet when the opportunity is there everyone wants the flashy pick..I say fix the lines and worry about the RB or DB next year.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, bh32 said: How many years have we all complained about them ignoring the lines? yet when the opportunity is there everyone wants the flashy pick..I say fix the lines and worry about the RB or DB next year.. See, I'm with you but I'm not with you there. I completely agree about building the lines. Without that it defeats the object of a RB high to me. And we don't have that. But this team is totally bereft of top-tier talent. And if you exclude the QB's, who are a law unto themselves, there are 7 genuine top 10 worthy players in this draft IMHO. Nelson, Fitzpatrick, Barkley, Chubb, Ward, Smith and James. In that order for me but it's subjective. So if you then throw in let's say 5 QB's going top 10, with another before we pick, wouldn't you rather add a top-tier building block, either by sitting and letting him fall, or by moving up a few spots when we have next to none of them? Surely picking this high you want to add the top talent that can make a difference from Day 1? Hail. *Edit* And talking about lines, if Cleveland goes QB and Chubb at 4, I'm straight on the 'phone to Dorsey and see what he'd want for Ogbah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said: All of which is far removed from Charlie and his 6 first round grades. Hail. Not by a mile though. Brugler with four 1st round grades, three with 2nd round grades. My point is the slew of teams that supposedly want RBs take them in the first and 2nd before our pick -- we are looking then at the next tier. I don't think I'd take from the Walton, Freeman, Hines pool in the 2nd. So then you are in the 4th round with a pool of guys that I don't trust the FO to find the diamond in the rough. 23 minutes ago, bh32 said: How many years have we all complained about them ignoring the lines? yet when the opportunity is there everyone wants the flashy pick..I say fix the lines and worry about the RB or DB next year.. IMO you got the argument backwards. We've used two high first rounders on the O line. Multiple high 3rd rounders, too. When was the last time we did the same at RB -- 16 years ago? It's comical how we've neglected the position. We actually have a good O line. We are just missing a LG. Our RBs are IMO jags save Chris Thompson. There is nothing flashy about a RB -- we've ignored the position like the plague forever. It's part of the reason IMO we've faded towards the ends of seasons when the weather gets cold. Tom Coughlin isn't Mr. Flash -- the first pick in Jax, top 10, was a RB. It's also not a zero sum game. It doesn't have to be one versus another. A good FO should be able to figure out how to address 3 needs -- it shouldn't be that complex. For example, you can draft a RB, you can draft an O lineman. You can sign Hankins in FA. Heck you should be able to go BPA in the draft period. The FO thus far decided to stay pat for the most part in FA -- and I am not going to go over the top to make up for that in the draft. I am hung up on RB in large part because its likely a good BPA fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWJ Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: It's also not a zero sum game. It doesn't have to be one versus another. A good FO should be able to figure out how to address 3 needs -- it shouldn't be that complex. For example, you can draft a RB, you can draft an O lineman. You can sign Hankins in FA. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Not by a mile though. Brugler with four 1st round grades, three with 2nd round grades. My point is the slew of teams that supposedly want RBs take them in the first and 2nd before our pick -- we are looking then at the next tier. I don't think I'd take from the Walton, Freeman, Hines pool in the 2nd. So then you are in the 4th round with a pool of guys that I don't trust the FO to find the diamond in the rough. IMO you got the argument backwards. We've used two high first rounders on the O line. Multiple high 3rd rounders, too. When was the last time we did the same at RB -- 16 years ago? It's comical how we've neglected the position. We actually have a good O line. We are just missing a LG. Our RBs are IMO jags save Chris Thompson. There is nothing flashy about a RB -- we've ignored the position like the plague forever. It's part of the reason IMO we've faded towards the ends of seasons when the weather gets cold. Tom Coughlin isn't Mr. Flash -- the first pick in Jax, top 10, was a RB. It's also not a zero sum game. It doesn't have to be one versus another. A good FO should be able to figure out how to address 3 needs -- it shouldn't be that complex. For example, you can draft a RB, you can draft an O lineman. You can sign Hankins in FA. I have seen way too many times the OL pushed back into the backfield on 3rd and 1 to agree with you that the OL is fine as is..they get no push at all on short yardage plays.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said: Not by a mile though. Brugler with four 1st round grades, three with 2nd round grades. ..... You know he wouldn't take any RB outside of Barkley personally in the first if he had the ideal choice right? Having a grade against the class and what his views are on what he'd do are an interesting distinction. Side note- If he's not on an NFL teams scouting crew this time next year, the NFL have missed out massively. Again. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd24 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Honestly, the best trade might be for us to trade #13+#44 for #23+#31 with the Pats if none of the big 8 (James, Fitzpatrick, Edmunds, Smith, Chubb, Barkley, Nelson, Ward) is there at 13. The Pats trade up to get the top rated tackle (they desperately need one), and they'll still get a quality player at 44. We get to take Payne potentially at 23 (if he falls) and the RB of our choice likely at 31. Or a top rated guard/Taven Bryan at 23 and Guice/Michel/Jones at 31. I think we're losing a bit of value, so I'd want something else in that package, but that's the general deal I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 When Alfred Morris can average almost 5 yards a carry than that should tell you something....fix the OL and DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 @mhd24 yeah, in theory. We’d be well positioned for our needs at 23 and 31 ... but that’s -280 points for us in trade value. Pick 2.31 for NE happens to be worth 276. So actually, 1.23, 1.31 and 2.31 for 1.13 and 2.12 would be more accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, bh32 said: When Alfred Morris can average almost 5 yards a carry than that should tell you something....fix the OL and DL And that was with a beat up, injury hampered Dallas line last year. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said: And that was with a beat up, injury hampered Dallas line last year. Hail. That Dallas line gets so much push up the middle,Where as the Redskins get pushed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, bh32 said: When Alfred Morris can average almost 5 yards a carry than that should tell you something....fix the OL and DL Ugh, no no NO! His best season was in a zone read option offense and now he's unemployed. If he's so good, why haven't we called him yet? Probably the same reason we let him go in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Allen made a massive difference in run defense. We will be improved if he’s healthy. Add a NT and we will be fine. And it doesn’t have to be Vea. Can be Payne/Phillips in the 2nd or Settle in the 3rd (if we get one) Shepherd, Norton, Futukasi, Hall, etc in the 4th/5th we WILL add a DT in the draft. And it’s super deep. So if we don’t go DL in round 1/2 don’t freak out. And if we somehow completely whiff on DT we can always go get Hankins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.