Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Jeremiah seems to have changed his stance on Payne then, and I'm not sure why. His original take was that Payne was the best Alabama DT since Marcell Dareus and that he was better than Thomlinson, Robinson, and Reed. And I think he was right in that first assessment and that he shouldn't be second guessing it or dropping him in his mocks. He's back and forth on Payne. I was just starring at one of his top 50 boards from earlier in the process and he had him at 24. He has another where he was earlier. If I recall you aren't a big Guice guy. I am a big Guice guy but not sure though at 13. And that's my primary point about Payne. I accede really the main buzz of Guice going early is very Redskins centric. The same thing exactly applies to Payne -- not a lot of talk of teams beating down the house to take Payne early. He seems typically in the 20-32 range. I wouldn't be shocked if he went slightly earlier than that. But you can likely get the dude without using your 13th pick. Same point applies to Guice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Payne is the exact player this entire fanbase has been banging the table for for years and years and does all the things you want from the center anchor of your line. The best part is he is young and loves football. Exact player that we want and need. I'd take him at 13 if Fitz isn't there and we can't trade back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 My take on Taven Bryan is that he's a natural pass rushing 5 technique with good height and length, an elite first step, and rare body control for an interior lineman. The negatives are that he has no sand in his pants at all and his contact balance is weak. He lacks power at the position and he's too narrow-bodied to play inside on run downs. He's an end at the next level. I think he could be a really good one though. I'm thinking somewhere in the late teens to early twenties is his natural draft range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Payne is the exact player this entire fanbase has been banging the table for for years and years and does all the things you want from the center anchor of your line. The best part is he is young and loves football. Exact player that we want and need. I'd take him at 13 if Fitz isn't there and we can't trade back. I agree in concept but IMO you picked the wrong player, Vita Vea would be the prototype monster nose profile that fans have been clamoring for not Payne. Personally, I'd rather they go elsewhere with the pick. But if I had to choose --I am with most of the draft geeks on this, I'd go Vea. Having said that, there seems to be growing buzz Vea is gone before 13. Payne looks like slam dunk with be there at 13. Will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswerdlw Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I see us having a solid draft with little pizazz. Probably Payne, followed by these or comparable players: N.Chubb, W. Teller, Q. Blanding, J. Cichy, PJHall, T. Apke, B. Facsyon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Payne is the exact player this entire fanbase has been banging the table for for years and years and does all the things you want from the center anchor of your line. The best part is he is young and loves football. Exact player that we want and need. I'd take him at 13 if Fitz isn't there and we can't trade back. We have the exact same thoughts on this. He checks all of the boxes for me. He is hard. Hard as Hell. And people don't want him? When is the last time we saw a first round NT prospect come out that had great film, an extended history of success at the highest level of college football, elite athleticism, long arms, a clean body that can play a ton of snaps going hard deep into the fourth quarter, including playing third downs, AND he's only 20 years old and has no history of major injury? Then add to that the folks at Alabama claim he's one of the best leaders they've had. Guys like this don't come around often. He's a super clean prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: If I recall you aren't a big Guice guy. I am a big Guice guy but not sure though at 13. And that's my primary point about Payne. I accede really the main buzz of Guice going early is very Redskins centric. The same thing exactly applies to Payne -- not a lot of talk of teams beating down the house to take Payne early. He seems typically in the 20-32 range. I wouldn't be shocked if he went slightly earlier than that. But you can likely get the dude without using your 13th pick. Same point applies to Guice. I like Guice's 2016 film quite a bit but I am troubled by his 2017 film. I don't think he's as good as Payne is, and he's not coming off nearly as good a season. The difference between them, for the purposes of ranking them on a draft board, is that Payne is clean and Guice has flags. I could be wrong, and this might be academic because I think there is a good chance we'll pick Payne, but I suspect Payne is going to go off the board before Guice even if we don't pick him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Well we should take BPA. Don't care if that means RB/DB or a lineman, I want to go BPA. I think there is a chance that could be Minkah. I think there is a better chance he's gone and the BPA is Payne. I think it could even be Ridley. Ha! If Ridley ends up being the choice the meltdown on this board would be epic. Personally, I'm BPA always. 4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I like Guice's 2016 film quite a bit but I am troubled by his 2017 film. I don't think he's as good as Payne is, and he's not coming off nearly as good a season. The difference between them, for the purposes of ranking them on a draft board, is that Payne is clean and Guice has flags. I could be wrong, and this might be academic because I think there is a good chance we'll pick Payne, but I suspect Payne is going to go off the board before Guice even if we don't pick him. In regards to Guide's 2017 film, you need to take into account he played injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said: In regards to Guide's 2017 film, you need to take into account he played injured. I understand that, but running backs who look like they've lost their special make-you-miss ability sometimes don't get it back. That plus the rumors about him being immature have me worried about him. There are a few guys in the class that I'm going to be very curious to see where they end up because they're particularly boom or bust: Allen, Rosen, Guice, etc. I want to see which teams are confident enough to pick them early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said: They're not wrong about this, which is why I'm hoping a shocker like Josh Jackson falling to 44 happens. Also wouldn't mind getting a little waterbug like Anthony Averett in the midrounds either. I think Norman is going to bounce back this season though. He was playing through broken ribs last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I'm sure we'll grab some late round DB or two, but I think some of the youngsters are going to step up. I'm excited about Holsey and Fabian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 That article referencing teams taking less to accumulate mid-round picks = why I don't think there's a great chance of us trading down. And if we do, it might be for a 3 + 4 instead of a 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Payne is the exact player this entire fanbase has been banging the table for for years and years and does all the things you want from the center anchor of your line. The best part is he is young and loves football. Exact player that we want and need. I'd take him at 13 if Fitz isn't there and we can't trade back. A few of my notes on Payne FWIW: Guys that big aren't supposed to move like that/ great, smooth athlete- similar traits to Suh without the same intensity (no slight)/ fluid, lose hip action/ quickness/ upper body power/ good balance/ eats up double teams/ makes stops outside the hashes/ has 3-tech under tackle traits- wouldn't need to come off the field on third down/ passing downs/ needs pro-coaching to develop his hand placement/ counter moves- but the traits are there: was more a contain/ block eater which are his main strengths/ can be moved around the line and bully opponents from anywhere/ big game player- 2017 SF/ F the 2 best/ most disruptive games of his life. I'd feel DAMN good adding him to my football team personally. I can only see him getting better with pro-coaching fully utilising the unique gifts he brings to the table for his size. FWIW, talking NT's, if you ignore the Dallas centric theme of the write-up from our recent mock, an excellent consolation to missing out on a Vea/ Payne or Phillips would be this stout, compact beast who may fall a little down to not being the prototypical size for some teams but who is a top 50 talent IMHO to seriously consider in the second: Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 28 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said: ..... In regards to Guide's 2017 film, you need to take into account he played injured. I'd also take into account there was very little drop-off in production from Guice to his back-up at LSU when he was asked to step-up. Even though Guice is the more explosive, better player. Which all just plays to me how there's not that significant a drop-off in this class from the top guys to the mid-round guys. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 25 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: They're not wrong about this, which is why I'm hoping a shocker like Josh Jackson falling to 44 happens. Also wouldn't mind getting a little waterbug like Anthony Averett in the midrounds either. I think Norman is going to bounce back this season though. He was playing through broken ribs last year. Which DB was originally rated as a first rounder that will now drop to 4 or later because of injury? Seems to be the way we roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Darth Tater said: Which DB was originally rated as a first rounder that will now drop to 4 or later because of injury? Seems to be the way we roll. Well Jaire Alexander missed a lot of time this season but he's probably still going to go in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 59 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: We have the exact same thoughts on this. He checks all of the boxes for me. He is hard. Hard as Hell. And people don't want him? When is the last time we saw a first round NT prospect come out that had great film, an extended history of success at the highest level of college football, elite athleticism, long arms, a clean body that can play a ton of snaps going hard deep into the fourth quarter, including playing third downs, AND he's only 20 years old and has no history of major injury? Then add to that the folks at Alabama claim he's one of the best leaders they've had. Guys like this don't come around often. He's a super clean prospect. Those are great highlight gifs you posted but if you go back and watch all of his cutups you see a different dude IMO and a guy who gets pushed back or taken out of a play rather frequently by double teams (sure he beats them sometimes, but that's why those are in the highlights). He's a super clean prospect from the standpoint of being a high motor guy, passionate about football, and a leader. But (IMO) his overall film is completely mediocre and his production is flat out awful. You can say all you want about "that wasn't his role in their defense" but watching the film you see that on many plays penetrating into the backfield and also getting to the QB WAS part of his role. His role wasn't purely to be some huge gap eating dude...it was to be a penetrating NT in their system and try to make big plays. And his stats show that he sucked at making those big plays. Those TFL and sack numbers are plain terrible for that sort of player. He had ONE TFL last season. 1. Uno. Most interior DL guys (even big NTs) can accidentally get at least one TFL. IMO he's a high effort, low production player and will be the same in the NFL. Not a BAD player...but just a decent one maybe. Definitely not worth a 13th overall pick IMO. I think he'll get manhandled in the NFL more often than not. Vea would be more in the role of a gap eating dude who's mostly there to stonewall blockers, not Payne...but even Vea still had much better production than Payne all while being that mammoth. I'm still not sold on Vea for a few reasons, but if I had to pick my poison between them it would be Vea (I'd rather take neither). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why am I Mr. Pink? Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 21 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said: I'd also take into account there was very little drop-off in production from Guice to his back-up at LSU when he was asked to step-up. Even though Guice is the more explosive, better player. Which all just plays to me how there's not that significant a drop-off in this class from the top guys to the mid-round guys. Hail. RUSHING GP-GS Att Gain Loss Net Avg TD Long Avg/G Derrius Guice 12-11 237 1284 33 1251 5.3 11 59 104.2 Darrel Williams 13-4 145 842 22 820 5.7 9 77 63.1 Russell Gage 13-2 28 235 3 232 8.3 1 70 17.8 Cooley said he would take Jones (USC) before Guice. Im just not a fan of spending a 13th overall on a non grade A, tier 1 stud at RB. I know the game is swinging back to prioritizing running backs but i think that is only for the game breakers like elliott or gurley or barkeley. I dont think Guice is in that group. I wouldnt take a "very good" running back at 13, there are enough very good running backs out there that dont require a 13th overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 49 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: They're not wrong about this, which is why I'm hoping a shocker like Josh Jackson falling to 44 happens. ..... Normally mesh with a lot of your thoughts but I wouldn't touch Jackson. I guess it comes down to what you want in a corner. You want a ball hawk with outstanding instincts/ ball skills/ length, he's your man Personally, I like my corners to be able to tackle. He doesn't just not tackle. He actively shy's away from physical contact. Zone only. Way too many holes to play man. Which is a staple the next level. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 20 minutes ago, Darth Tater said: Which DB was originally rated as a first rounder that will now drop to 4 or later because of injury? Seems to be the way we roll. Kevin Tolliver II is a guy that had really high expectations after his freshman year at LSU, then played off and on injured and inconsistent the rest of the way, but still has high upside. 4th-5th round type. I've circled him for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I like Guice's 2016 film quite a bit but I am troubled by his 2017 film. I don't think he's as good as Payne is, and he's not coming off nearly as good a season. The difference between them, for the purposes of ranking them on a draft board, is that Payne is clean and Guice has flags. I could be wrong, and this might be academic because I think there is a good chance we'll pick Payne, but I suspect Payne is going to go off the board before Guice even if we don't pick him. I am no scout. I am a layperson of course as to evaluations but I've been lucky on the RB position more than any other so I trust my instincts on it -- so am more likely to be stubborn. I recall arguing to death on behalf of Dalvin Cook last year on this thread -- people wondering about his subpar combine numbers, baggage, fumbles, etc. I just loved the dude's explosion, quick feet, vision, where he can cut and shift directions in a split second. I also loved Kamara and took him in the board's mock. Derrius Guice to me has that "it" factor. Quick cuts, can spin out of contact, great balance -- for the lack of a better way of saying it, he has a little spiderman in him. I like backs like that. I also like his size -- squatty looking. By and large, I don't like tallish backs who run high like lets say a Josh Adams. As for Payne going before Guice probably so but I take that as a function of his position as opposed to a player. You got some buzz rising on some players as the draft approaches - I don't notice Payne among them. You got some talk for example of Vea going top 10 -- I haven't see anything of that kind about Payne unless I missed something. 8 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said: RUSHING GP-GS Att Gain Loss Net Avg TD Long Avg/G Derrius Guice 12-11 237 1284 33 1251 5.3 11 59 104.2 Darrel Williams 13-4 145 842 22 820 5.7 9 77 63.1 Russell Gage 13-2 28 235 3 232 8.3 1 70 17.8 Cooley said he would take Jones (USC) before Guice. Im just not a fan of spending a 13th overall on a non grade A, tier 1 stud at RB. I know the game is swinging back to prioritizing running backs but i think that is only for the game breakers like elliott or gurley or barkeley. I dont think Guice is in that group. I wouldnt take a "very good" running back at 13, there are enough very good running backs out there that dont require a 13th overall. Cooley just watched Guice's 2017 tape. He likes Guice but fell for Jones. Cooley also said among the guys he's looked at closely, Payne, Vea, Jones, K. Johnson, Guice, James, Fitzpatrick. Only two of them in his mind are worthy of the 13th pick -- James, Fitzpatrick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I think Payne will be a guy on the line that has to be accounted for and if he's only in to occupy gaps and take on blockers, then Allen and Iaon can't be doubled. He is an impact player and our d line instantly becomes one of the best in the league and is crazy young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Doug Farrar, new mock. Fitzpatrick and James go before our pick, so I automatically hate it. R. Jones drops to 17 -- doubt that happens. Redskins take Vea. Guice goes #20. Payne goes to the 2nd round. That's the third mock of late I've seen with Payne going to the 2nd round. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770818-2018-nfl-mock-draft-doug-farrars-final-1st-round-predictions?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national Here's Peter King's which is supposedly all about what he hears. On that one Derwin James actually gets taken past our pick. Payne goes #20. Guice is knocked to the 2nd round. Vea goes 11. We take D. Ward. https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/04/23/mock-draft-prospects-trades-first-round-mmqb-peter-king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I can see some of the hesitancy on Payne. The Clemson and UGA lines stood him up quite a bit and there were times he struggled mightily to disengage and remain relevant in the play. He's very quick laterally and has exceptional feet for a big guy but his closing burst isn't great. Much more flawed player then he's out to be even as a run stuffer. Not sure if all the current Josh Rosen potentially dropping into the teens is real but if he's there at 13 you dance to the podium with a party hat and a fake cigar...IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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