Nationwide Removal of Confederate Statues

[Riggo-toni]

@TryTheBeal!, my wife grew up in Arkansas and would vouch for your post I'm sure.

[TradeTheBeal!]

8 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

@TryTheBeal!, my wife grew up in Arkansas and would vouch for your post I'm sure.

 

Without a doubt.

[twa]

26 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

If you were a child of the South in the 70s/80s, you were repeatedly exposed to/indoctrinated in the various revisionist mythologies attached to Civil War via the public education system.  Northern Aggression, States Rights, “many slaves fought for the South”, “most plantation owners treated their slaves very well”, etc.  The realities of things like the slave trade or Jim Crow were mostly glossed over.

 

As you grow into an adult, it takes a great deal of intellectual courage and personal fortitude to cast that aside and digest the hard truth about the matter.  But it can be done, often incrementally.  Not dissimilar to being raised in a religious cult or similar, I’d imagine.

 

Ya'll obviously had different lessons than we did here ,  they did hammer the Yankees that profited off the slave trade though

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

It is factually correct and offered to be informative for those who were not brought up in public schools of the south.  Additionally, my affection and respect for you is genuine so that removes any intent to be patronizing.

 

Im sorry you perceived it that way.

 

I know you didn't mean anything personal by it, and we are definitely friends.  But look at it from the other way for a minute.  You're basically accusing anyone who doesn't want the statues to come down, or has a feeling of interest or pride in their ancestry of being in a cult.  That is an alienating sentiment.

 

It feels like my perspective is really far away from the majority of the tailgate on this issue.  Normally I see eye to eye with the other liberals but I don't think that's going to happen here.  I haven't been doing a great job at conveying my perspective and I doubt I'll be able to.  I have no idea how to contextualize my view of the historical period and the value of its history in a way that can be communicated to someone else.  Let alone trying to do it in a half-assed way in the middle of working.  I realize I won't be changing minds, I just wanted to state my peace.

[Zguy28]

To me Silent Sam is similar to "let's have a plantation wedding with black folks playing the parts of slaves. We can remember the role that plantation life played in the South" but worse.

I can only imagine what a black person, especially who may be descended from slaves, would feel.

 

And why are there no statues commemorating the late General Westmoreland who commanded a good many years in our great war in Vietnam? He only get's a bridge? WTH?

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Zguy28

[China]

5 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

To me Silent Sam is similar to "let's have a plantation wedding with black folks playing the parts of slaves. We can remember the role that plantation life played in the South" but worse.

I can only imagine what a black person, especially who may be descended from slaves, would feel.

 

And why are there no statues commemorating the late General Westmoreland who commanded a good many years in our great war in Vietnam? He only get's a bridge? WTH?

 

 

And a few streets named after him.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

19 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I know you didn't mean anything personal by it, and we are definitely friends.  But look at it from the other way for a minute.  You're basically accusing anyone who doesn't want the statues to come down, or has a feeling of interest or pride in their ancestry of being in a cult.  That is an alienating sentiment.

 

It feels like my perspective is really far away from the majority of the tailgate on this issue.  Normally I see eye to eye with the other liberals but I don't think that's going to happen here.  I haven't been doing a great job at conveying my perspective and I doubt I'll be able to.  I have no idea how to contextualize my view of the historical period and the value of its history in a way that can be communicated to someone else.  Let alone trying to do it in a half-assed way in the middle of working.  I realize I won't be changing minds, I just wanted to state my peace.

 

Why can't the statues/monuments simply be relocated to the closest museums nearby?  That way the historical significance is preserved and those offended by them don't have to see them anymore.  Those that want to see them and honor who/whatever can do so privately.  

 

 

Edit:  good lord there are a lot of confederate monuments/memorials..... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[Renegade7]

43 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Richmond was the seat of his government.  That's not just a tangential connection, that's a fairly significant historical connection.  But I also don't think Jefferson Davis is worthy of public memorialization in the same way that the great soldiers of the war were because he doesn't offer the same kind of embodiment of a civic virtue that they do.  I think a statue of him has historic value but putting him in such a prominent place on Monument ave feels unworthy.  I personally would put him somewhere else and would reserve places for statuary on Monument ave for figures who do something more than tell a story by also embody a worthy heroic virtue.  I actually think Grant would be fitting.

 

I can't man, im trying to justify in my mind saving any if these confederate statues, but these are people that fought for on instrumental for country that wanted to keep my ancestors in chains.  They'd want me in chains too and feel fully justified doing it, don't you get that? 

 

I'm never going to feel the same way as you on this as you do because of that.  I think we can do better then replacing the confederate statues on Monument ave with people from Union, too.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

58 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

If you were a child of the South in the 70s/80s, you were repeatedly exposed to/indoctrinated in the various revisionist mythologies attached to Civil War via the public education system.  Northern Aggression, States Rights, “many slaves fought for the South”, “most plantation owners treated their slaves very well”, etc.  The realities of things like the slave trade or Jim Crow were mostly glossed over.

 

As you grow into an adult, it takes a great deal of intellectual courage and personal fortitude to cast that aside and digest the hard truth about the matter.  But it can be done, often incrementally.  Not dissimilar to being raised in a religious cult or similar, I’d imagine.

 

I can confirm this, growing up in the 80s in a small town in the foothills/mountains in NC.  These views/beliefs are also amplified by what their parents/grandparents preach/preached on a continual basis too.  Especially those whose family members were racists. 

 

Sadly, a lot never try to educate themselves on what the truth is and what is morally right and are sheep and continue with said views/beliefs.  I've also found that a lot of people that I grew up with, specifically those that never left and still live in my hometown, are often the ones that never change and probably won't.  They also don't listen to those of us trying to educate them.

[TradeTheBeal!]

14 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

 

Edit:  good lord there are a lot of confederate monuments/memorials..... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials

 

 

 

It boggles the mind.  Again, the Confederacy lasted FOUR YEARS.

[Mr. Sinister]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

It doesn’t matter that you have a PhD in history and specialized in the civil war. 

 

Resident ES knowitalls clearly know better and are here to educate you. 

 

 

So because you can’t see it, they’re not allowed to think it, and their thoughts become irrelevant. 

 

Remember that next time you’re in an argument about your intentions - that others get to dictate them for you. 

 

I'll remember this the next time (just like all the other times) you want to parachute into a thread with "Hypocrite....Hypocrite...."

 

Meanwhile it's stamped in big ass letters on your inflated forehead, and it never stops being hilarious

Edited August 22, 2018 by Mr. Sinister

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, TryTheBeal! said:

 

It boggles the mind.  Again, the Confederacy lasted FOUR YEARS.

 

It's freaking nuts bruh.  More than 1503 public Confederate monuments/memorials with more than 718 being statues........

[Kosher Ham]

Why go to the places that have these ? 

I know that I refuse to go to a restaurant that does not serve food. 

Folks that want to go...go. Otherwise stay away. 

 

There was a bar not far from me with certain flags represented outside. Figured they didn't want me there. 

Plenty of other places to go. 

 

Living in the South I expect to see them, but I can walk right past and ignore them, When I lived in Atlanta...Stone Mountain was just a few minutes down the road. Never been there though. 

[Dan T.]

1 hour ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

There is no monument/memorial/statue that I know of for just regular soldiers that fought and died in the Civil War.  Just ones like Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, etc. and not for the everyday solider that fought and died in the war (both enlisted on their own or drafted against their will).  If I'm not racist and know that the statue/monument I'm honoring my ancestor is viewed widely as a symbol of racism, I'm fine with it being removed and will find another way to honor those ancestors. That is what common sense and human  decency dictates to me at least.

 

 

Without killing the rest of your argument, there are tons of statues for regular soldiers.  The statue most in the news now - the "Silent Sam" statue just torn down at UNC, was erected for alumni who died in the Civil War.  Another prominent one locally is right in the middle of Route 1 in Alexandria, facing south, erected for those Alexandrians who died fighting for the Confederacy.

[Jumbo]

2 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I’m a White southerner, born in Greenville, NC and lived my entire life between Springfield and West Palm Beach along the 95 corridor.

 

I think you all know where I stand.

 

 

i'm terminally caucasian and grew up in Alaska and have never been to the southern states but i saw easy rider when i was a teenager and that pretty much did it for me

 

i think you know where i stand

 

right outside my van, down by the river

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I can't man, im trying to justify in my mind saving any if these confederate statues, but these are people that fought for on instrumental for country that wanted to keep my ancestors in chains.  They'd want me in chains too and feel fully justified doing it, don't you get that? 

 

I'm never going to feel the same way as you on this as you do because of that.  I think we can do better then replacing the confederate statues on Monument ave with people from Union, too.

 

I understand.  The history of injustice that you and your ancestors face divides us on this.  It's a lot easier for me to separate the soldier from the cause because I have been afforded that luxury by my background and perspective.

 

This history is very divisive, which seems inevitable because that was our most divided time.  But ultimately I don't think the right solution is to delegitimize or overrule or silence the Southern perspective on the issue.  I believe the solution is to elevate the black and Union perspectives to an equal footing.  That means that there are going to be uncomfortable contradictions and conflicting ideologies and messages coexisting in our public spaces.  But there are common virtues to celebrate.  And that would actually reflect the ambivalence and conflict and complexity of the period.  Maybe I'm being naive, but if black war contributions were properly honored, then wouldn't that be of value to black communities?  Wouldn't that promote a sense of pride in their ancestry and a connection to the period?  Wouldn't that promote interest in the significance of the history of the event?

 

I think it was you who said yesterday that such a level of cooperation to achieve and union and black monument building drive in the same public spaces as Confederate statuary would require so much good faith from everyone involved that it probably will never happen.  You are probably right.  This is a visceral subject that puts peoples backs up.

[TradeTheBeal!]

9 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

right outside my van, down by the river

 

[Zguy28]

Ah, when a van was a van and not mini.

[Dan T.]

5 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Ah, when a van was a van and not mini.

 

We could turn this thread into a gallery of rawkin' 70s era airbrushed vans...

 

 

[Zguy28]

17 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

i'm terminally caucasian and grew up in Alaska and have never been to the southern states but i saw easy rider when i was a teenager and that pretty much did it for me

 

i think you know where i stand

 

right outside my van, down by the river

I'm from MD with half my family being Rebels (proudly) right over the river in King George VA. I normally try to stay away from the "offended on behalf of" type of things, but this is something that is a reflection on current race relations and the general inability or unwillingness of my fellow whites to even try understand and empathize with our fellow humans who are African-American. It's hard for me not to feel empathy as I see these things.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

Nice try.  I never said they weren't allowed to think a certain way or that their thoughts were irrelevant

Right, you just said that the one you subscribe to trumps theirs.

 

Quote

I'm sorry, but one meaning trumps the other one, and that is racism. 

 

[Dan T.]

.

[Kosher Ham]

3 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

are African-American

 

Let's start with calling Americans, "Americans". 

Race nor religion fit in with what an American is supposed to be. 

I hate having to clarify myself as an American. 

I'm American. End of story. 

Had a woman tell me once that "you don't look American" after asking where I was from and I simply stated America. 

If I would have said that to her, or that she looked African or such...pretty sure she would have been offended. 

[Zguy28]

13 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

 

We could turn this thread into a gallery of rawkin' 70s era airbrushed vans...

 

 

And say Jumbo started it!

[Kosher Ham]