PBS NewsHour: Black men fleeing the police is reasonable, Massachusetts court rules

[Sticksboi05]

When black men flee to avoid an encounter with police, they’re not being suspicious. That’s according to a recent ruling by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. AsWBUR’s Zeninjor Enwemeka reports, the high court ruled that a documented “pattern of racial profiling of black males in the city of Boston,” makes an instinctive reaction to flee reasonable.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/black-men-fleeing-police-reasonable-massachusetts-highest-court-rules/

 

[s0crates]

I agree with the court on the following:

1. It is reasonable to fear the police.

2. People have the right to walk away from police who don't suspect them of a crime.

3. Fleeing police does not prove guilt. 

That said, I think the most rational choice when confronted by police is to comply and not give them an excuse to shoot you.

[twa]

That is a pretty strong indictment of the folks running Boston

I blame Democrats....as usual 

[Springfield]

I've never had a gun pointed at me.  I imagine that if I did, I would want to get out of the line of fire immediately.

[nonniey]

"When black men flee to avoid an encounter with police, they’re not being suspicious."

 

Ok to say this is absolutely stupid.  Of course it is suspicious.  Which is different that saying whether it is reasonable to flee.  The court can decide that fleeing doesn't provide enough suspicion for the police to act but they can't decree is doesn't raise suspicion. They may as well decree that the Earth is flat. 

[visionary]

People always bring up complying or doing what the police say as if it's a really simple thing but I've had situations with police telling me to do things and I either didn't hear them or didn't understand what they were saying. Luckily I wasn't in any danger...I think.  People also react very differently to these types of situations.  Some might freak out and others might freeze up.

[twa]

11 minutes ago, visionary said:

People always bring up complying or doing what the police say as if it's a really simple thing but I've had situations with police telling me to do things and I either didn't hear them or didn't understand what they were saying. Luckily I wasn't in any danger...I think.  People also react very differently to these types of situations.  Some might freak out and others might freeze up.

 

They do tend to repeat themselves repeatedly....and offer encouragement/guidance

[CrypticVillain]

16 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I've never had a gun pointed at me.  I imagine that if I did, I would want to get out of the line of fire immediately.

I think I mentioned it before... I've "only" had a gun pointed at me twice. Both by police. First time I was 13... Bamma was pointing the gun at my 11 year old niece and I flipped the hell out. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Of course, I just wanted him to stop pointing the gun at her and point it at me instead. But it sucks that as a 13 year old, that I had to put my life in harms way because the actions of a police officer.

Second time, I had to be like 19. Police pulled me over in front of my house. I was just sitting in the car and as he was approaching, he had his gun out. Here's the kicker though, I didn't know. My cousins asked the officer why did he have his gun out. When I found out, I flipped off once again. I did not know that the officer had his gun out as he was approaching me. One false move, and I could have been a hashtag.

Gun pointed at me twice. Once I was a 13 year old boy playing outside at church, second time I was just driving. First time officer was white, second time he was black. It don't matter to me though because once again, a gun was pointed at me for no reason by the people that said they'll swear they'd protect me.

I'm saying that to agree with Vis... Until you're in that situation, you don't know how you'd react. If they police were to do that now, I would try my best to let them know that I'm no threat. But again, I can say for sure that's how I'd react and I've been 

[s0crates]

28 minutes ago, visionary said:

People always bring up complying or doing what the police say as if it's a really simple thing but I've had situations with police telling me to do things and I either didn't hear them or didn't understand what they were saying. Luckily I wasn't in any danger...I think.  People also react very differently to these types of situations.  Some might freak out and others might freeze up.

 

I agree with all that. My point in saying that the rational thing to do is comply wasn't meant to excuse police shooting people who don't comply, rather it was meant to recognize the unfortunate reality that police do shoot people when they shouldn't. Given that, I'd do my best not to give them an excuse. 

[visionary]

Just now, s0crates said:

 

I agree with all that. My point in saying that the rational thing to do is comply wasn't meant to excuse police shooting people who don't comply, rather it was meant to recognize the unfortunate reality that police do shoot people, so I'd do my best not to give them an excuse.

Of course.  I wasn't singling you out specifically, just addressing something I've seen a lot.

[PCS]

Been close. Got pulled over for speeding in Park City,(they just put the signs up during the night and lowered the speed limit 10 mph. They had a field day there for a few days). I got out of the truck and told the officer my license was in my back pack in the back of the truck. The little ****er's eye's shot wide open,(he all but ran towards my truck to get there),and he put his hand on his weapon and said "Sir! I'm going to have to ask you to get back in to the vehicle!" He was about 3- 4 feet from me and get this,the panicky new guy still had his weapon strapped in. At that time I'd been in town for near 15 years and had had many,positive interactions with the local police and just couldn't believe what was happening. I was severely pissed,a little scared,and at the same time entertained. If I was that much of a danger,the poor guy wasn't doing a good job of protecting himself. Anyway,not close to the same has having the weapon pointed at me,but still an unnerving experience. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

47 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I've never had a gun pointed at me.  I imagine that if I did, I would want to get out of the line of fire immediately.

It's not fun.  It's happened to me twice.  When I was 16 yo, working at the grocery store, walked across the front of the store with a bundle of paper bags to fill up the registers.  A guy ran by me like a bat out of hell, then another guy ran in, stopped right in front of me, pointed the barrel of his gun at me point blank (few inches from my forehead) and asked me where the guy went.  I was like, "he went that way man."  He took off, I continued to fill up the paper bags lol.  That didn't really scare me or bother me that much.

Then when I was 17, I was dropping my wife off, we had gone out and it was around 2:30 am.  I pulled into a side road beside her house and we were parked for about 15 mins, then I saw headlights, so I started my car to drive out of the other cars way, not knowing who could be pulling up behind us.  Next thing, police lights and siren  goes off.  Not thinking, I immediately jump out of my car and start to walk towards the Sheriff's car and am greeted with, "Get the **** back in the car now!"  Get back in the car!" as he ducked behind his open car door with his gun drawn.  That scared the **** out of me.

Turns out that her neighbor didn't recognize my car, called the Sheriff's Dept. and told them there was a suspicious looking vehicle that had been parked for 10-15 minutes and she thought drugs were involved.  So he was responding to what he thought was a possible drug deal going down, then my stupid ass jumps out of the car and starts walking towards him in the middle of the night and rain.

[Mr. Sinister]

25 minutes ago, PCS said:

Been close. Got pulled over for speeding in Park City,(they just put the signs up during the night and lowered the speed limit 10 mph. They had a field day there for a few days). I got out of the truck and told the officer my license was in my back pack in the back of the truck. The little ****er's eye's shot wide open,(he all but ran towards my truck to get there),and he put his hand on his weapon and said "Sir! I'm going to have to ask you to get back in to the vehicle!" He was about 3- 4 feet from me and get this,the panicky new guy still had his weapon strapped in. At that time I'd been in town for near 15 years and had had many,positive interactions with the local police and just couldn't believe what was happening. I was severely pissed,a little scared,and at the same time entertained. If I was that much of a danger,the poor guy wasn't doing a good job of protecting himself. Anyway,not close to the same has having the weapon pointed at me,but still an unnerving experience. 

He probably thought you were about to put him in a vicious bearhug and crush his spine

[Burgold]

18 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Then when I was 17, I was dropping my wife off, we had gone out and it was around 2:30 am.

Okay, this isn't the important part of this story, but... you were married at 17???

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

6 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Okay, this isn't the important part of this story, but... you were married at 17???

Nah, I met my wife my senior year in high school when I was 17, she was a sophomore (15 yo), so we were dating at the time.

[Burgold]

Okay, you said wife versus future wife or whatever... it just caught my eye. No big deal either way!

Terrible that you had to go through the event. A gun pulled at you for parking in front of your girlfriend's home. It'd be one thing if it was Papa with a shotgun and you missed curfew, but the police...

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

6 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Okay, you said wife versus future wife or whatever... it just caught my eye. No big deal either way!

Terrible that you had to go through the event. A gun pulled at you for parking in front of your girlfriend's home. It'd be one thing if it was Papa with a shotgun and you missed curfew, but the police...

It was a side road.  She lived on a two lane road, out in the country, not in a neighborhood.  There was house beside hers with a side road that ran beside it.  It was a dead end road that had a few more houses down it.  She had sneaked out of her house to go hang out with me and our friends.  So I pulled down that side road so she could walk across a couple of backyards to sneak back in the house.  

This also led to the the Sheriff deputy and another deputy (who arrived later) to putting her in the back of their car and driving her home (literally could see her house from where I was parked) and knocking on her mom's door at 3am to deliver her back to her mom.  We had only been dating two months lol.  I caught so much **** from my parents for that.

[PCS]

37 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

He probably thought you were about to put him in a vicious bearhug and crush his spine

Well you know this was on the mean streets of Park City Utah so...    

[USS Redskins]

I had a gun pointed at my face... Working at a people's drugs in silver spring, 1985.

Two guys grabbed the lottery cash from the manager and tried to run out of the IN doors that didnt open out, they only opened in.. they smashed into the door with a huge crash... one guy scrambled over a gate to the exit doors while his parther ran over to my register and pulled out a .38 and pointed it about a foot from my face... he didnt see me there and i think I startled him, I was behind a counter with a big wall of cigarettes above me.... He then ran out with his partner.

Thought I was dead. It's a totally helpless feeling... It was probably Less than 3 seconds but it seemed like 10 minutes. It was also really loud and confusing with the dude yelling out stuff,  the security guard yelling, the manager fighting with the other dude... Crazy stuff.

 I had nightmares for a while (I was 16) until my dad brought me to a gun range and had me fire off a handgun. It actually helped... Took the mystique of the gun away, I guess.

[zoony]

4 hours ago, s0crates said:

I agree with the court on the following:

1. It is reasonable to fear the police.

2. People have the right to walk away from police who don't suspect them of a crime.

3. Fleeing police does not prove guilt. 

That said, I think the most rational choice when confronted by police is to comply and not give them an excuse to shoot you.

 

You're about 1 step away from full blown sovereign citizen.  

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I see a lot of us are moving in to the "when I had a gun in my face" stories, and I think they are an important part of the conversation. But I'm also interested in the ruling.

It seems to me, like the primary motive here, is to reinforce to officers that their job is NOT to "catch the perp, at all costs."

 

And I think this is important, because I think that fleeing the police is something that likely implies guilt, and could reasonably arouse suspicion, but shouldn't be enough to prompt action. I would assert that, barring some kind of terrorist or mass shooting situation, that shooting a man in the back as they are fleeing from you is ALWAYS wrong (again, outside of the above situation), becuase even if they are guilty/are likely guilty, they have a right to a trial, and shooting them robs them of that.

Hypothetical: police officer arrives on the scene of a robbery. Robber is fleeing the store with a bag of cash and sees the office. Officer points his firearm and starts shouting orders. Robber turns and runs. I would assert that the officer has an obligation to chase and/or wait for back up. But, even though in this hypothetical he's nearly 100% guilty, you can't just shoot a man in the back as he runs away. 

[Corcaigh]

As the Clash once sang:

 

You have the right to free speech

So long as you're not actually dumb enough to try it.

 

[s0crates]

20 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

You're about 1 step away from full blown sovereign citizen.  

 

How so? I stated 3 propositions from the court's opinion that I agreed with. Which of those must I deny to avoid sovereign citizen status?

[BornaSkinsFan83]

Sat in on a substance abuse group in DC yesterday. Hour long. I was the only white person there. They spent much of the group talking about all of this. About the fear they feel any time they interact with the police on any level. What stood out the most were the two counselors, in suits working their 9 to 5, feeling no different than the patients.  I already know all of this but just thought I'd share.

But yeah, their solution (the patients) was for the cops to no longer carry guns. They actually emphasized with what they must feel--the adrenaline--and they don't think people facing they shuld be armed. The amount of guns in this country I don't really think that's workable myself but I still think the first four or five rounds in their magazines should be rubber bullets. Still able to defend themselves and possibly not kill someone accidently if it gets to that. Would love for someone to tell me why that's a bad idea so I can stop wasting my time putting it out there. Anyone?

[twa]

2 hours ago, BornaSkinsFan83 said:

Sat in on a substance abuse group in DC yesterday. Hour long. I was the only white person there. They spent much of the group talking about all of this. About the fear they feel any time they interact with the police on any level. What stood out the most were the two counselors, in suits working their 9 to 5, feeling no different than the patients.  I already know all of this but just thought I'd share.

But yeah, their solution (the patients) was for the cops to no longer carry guns. They actually emphasized with what they must feel--the adrenaline--and they don't think people facing they shuld be armed. The amount of guns in this country I don't really think that's workable myself but I still think the first four or five rounds in their magazines should be rubber bullets. Still able to defend themselves and possibly not kill someone accidently if it gets to that. Would love for someone to tell me why that's a bad idea so I can stop wasting my time putting it out there. Anyone?

 

rubber bullets don't go in pistols and I don't think cops carrying shotguns is gonna be calming....rubber bullets or not