NYT: Lionel Shriver’s Address on Cultural Appropriation Roils a Writers Festival

[Zguy28]

Lionel Shriver’s Address on Cultural Appropriation Roils a Writers Festival

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/books/lionel-shriver-cultural-appropriation-brisbane-writers-festival.html?_r=0

 

Quote

 

BRISBANE, Australia — Officials in charge of an Australian writers festival were so upset with the address by their keynote speaker, the American novelist Lionel Shriver, that they censored her on the festival website and publicly disavowed her remarks.

The event, the Brisbane Writers Festival, which ended Sunday, also hurriedly organized counterprogramming, billed as a “right of reply” for critics of Ms. Shriver, whose speech had belittled the movement against cultural appropriation. They scheduled the rebuttal opposite a session Saturday afternoon in which Ms. Shriver was promoting her new novel, “The Mandibles.”

Ms. Shriver had been billed as speaking on “community and belonging” but focused on her views about cultural appropriation, a term that refers to the objections by members of minority groups to the use of their customs or culture (or even characters of their ethnicity) by artists or others who do not belong to those groups.

Ms. Shriver criticized as runaway political correctness efforts to ban references to ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation from Halloween celebrations, or to prevent artists from drawing on ethnic sources for their work.

 

More at link

 

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This is ridiculousness in my opinion. I read an article a while back about people getting angry at Chef Rick Bayless for cooking "authentic Mexican cuisine" or some such non-sense. That he shouldn't make Mexican food because he's a white male from Chicago. WTH?

[Riggo-toni]

Good grief...

Reminds me of the Sopranos episode where Paulie is so upset that non Italians are making so much money marketing espresso and cappuccino.

[zoony]

Move along nothing to see here. 

[Kilmer17]

This is what WHITE PRIVILEDGE looks like!

 

 

[Zguy28]

1 hour ago, zoony said:

Move along nothing to see here. 

[Corcaigh]

I think there's a line somewhere related to cultural appropriation.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Obligatory.

 

[Destino]

I hear cultural appropriation and I wonder who gave these people the power to make such pronouncements.  Who are they to set the rules or speak for anyone other than their own political group on their own political views.  They inflate themselves beyond what's right when they pretend to speak for entire cultures.  I'll give you an example that I can speak to as a Hispanic immigrant: Do any of you believe American born Hispanics living in the US should be speaking for Hispanic culture?  I don't.  These self appointed representatives have never done anything to check if Latin America in general agrees with what they are saying before stepping up and speaking for us.  

I'd bet that those screaming about other foreign cultures being appropriated are largely the same.  These other cultures have elected representatives and embassies of their own.  Why not ask them to speak on these issues?  What they've done instead is become their own version of the hated "white savior" trope.  

 

 

[PF Chang]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/as-lionel-shriver-made-light-of-identity-i-had-no-choice-but-to-walk-out-on-her

There's the dramatic response by the person who walked out. The tone would make you think she's writing about her traumatic experience in Ramsay Bolton's dungeon. 

[visionary]

 

[Destino]

31 minutes ago, PF Chang said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/as-lionel-shriver-made-light-of-identity-i-had-no-choice-but-to-walk-out-on-her

There's the dramatic response by the person who walked out. The tone would make you think she's writing about her traumatic experience in Ramsay Bolton's dungeon. 

Thanks for sharing that.  The tone, which you pointed out, is really something. 

Quote

The faces around me blurred. As my heels thudded against they grey plastic of the flooring, harmonising with the beat of the adrenaline pumping through my veins, my mind was blank save for one question.

“How is this happening?”

[Zguy28]

41 minutes ago, PF Chang said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/as-lionel-shriver-made-light-of-identity-i-had-no-choice-but-to-walk-out-on-her

There's the dramatic response by the person who walked out. The tone would make you think she's writing about her traumatic experience in Ramsay Bolton's dungeon. 

This reply to her article was right on IMO.

"it is horrible, it feels like reading an account of the death of the human soul. "

I laughed, and then I cried.

[grego]

whats great about criticism of political correctness is that its not just the right doing it anymore. theres a long and growing list of otherwise left leaning people who have a problem with it.

pretty fascinating to watch a conversation between a lefty and a righty on political correctness- 2 people who may disagree on virtually everything else- like they are soulmates  

[grego]

35 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

This reply to her article was right on IMO.

"it is horrible, it feels like reading an account of the death of the human soul. "

I laughed, and then I cried.

from the comments section below the article -

katsushika

4d ago

10231024

This is why Safe Spaces is absolutely vital. I can only imagine the horror she experienced from hearing an opinion different from her own.

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[Zguy28]

Just now, grego said:

from the comments section below the article -

katsushika

4d ago

10231024

This is why Safe Spaces is absolutely vital. I can only imagine the horror she experienced from hearing an opinion different from her own.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Until it was drowned out by the andrenaline pumping in her ears.

[Burgold]

When I wear my author's hat, I'm pretty sensitive to this topic. For the most part, I think the cultural appropriation people get it wrong or at the very least they try to have it both ways. If I were to write a story that takes place in modern America and there are no minority characters then that is a poor reflection of reality. I certainly don't want to be handcuffed in terms of the characters I'm allowed to write about or who gets to star in my work. Authors should not have their casts limited. More, it's kind of insulting to think that only men can write about men or women about women or Asian's about Asian's, etc.

I do think there is some burden on a writer looking into a different culture to get it right, to do the research, and to think a little more deeply. My novel, A Halo of Mushrooms, features one character from Vermont by way of Algeria. The novel ends in Malawi. I interviewed people to get a feel for who I was writing about. If I get something wrong I don't mind being called out on it. In fact, that's useful dialogue.

On the other hand, there has been a history of profiteering off minority work especially in music that was done at a very basic and crass level. The songs or tunes were outright stolen and given to white performers. Where the argument resonates with me the strongest is that there aren't enough minority writers getting their chance. In other words, it's not about appropriation, it's about opportunity. There should be more Black or Latino science fiction writers. There should be more literary fiction writers of color.

Last thought, I take umbrage to the fact that if someone is gay and they write a book it's immediately slotted as gay fiction. Likewise, Black fiction. The author's heritage doesn't define their market or their work. That is a form of cultural misappropriation too. There's too much beautiful work out there that gets missed because of how it's slotted.

 

[Zguy28]

7 minutes ago, Burgold said:

On the other hand, there has been a history of profiteering off minority work especially in music that was done at a very basic and crass level. The songs or tunes were outright stolen and given to white performers. Where the argument resonates with me the strongest is that there aren't enough minority writers getting their chance. In other words, it's not about appropriation, it's about opportunity. There should be more Black or Latino science fiction writers. There should be more literary fiction writers of color.

Good post. Regarding bolded part:  but what if there isn't? What I mean is, yeah it would be nice and ideal, but what if they simply don't exist? Do you remain unsatisfied that reality doesn't live up to your expectations? Do you need a safe space?

 

And how do you quantify more? One? Ten? 1000?

[Destino]

If the point is merely that minority writers should get more opportunity, then just say that.  Instead we have a catch 22.  Have minority characters?  Appropriation.  Don't have minority characters?  Racist.  

 

[Burgold]

6 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Good post. Regarding bolded part:  but what if there isn't? What I mean is, yeah it would be nice and ideal, but what if they simply don't exist? Do you remain unsatisfied that reality doesn't live up to your expectations? Do you need a safe space?

 

And how do you quantify more? One? Ten? 1000?

If there those writers don't exist the question is why. If it's because the genre doesn't appeal to that culture then that genre needs to find ways to be more inclusive (for purely economic reasons). If it's because writers of colors aren't welcomed that's a different issue.

For the longest time in the world of science fiction or fantasy you could tell an author was female if they went by their initials. That's because publishers thought that teenage boys (the biggest readership) wouldn't buy fiction written by women. You even see this to a degree to day with writers like J K Rowling.

I find this bizarre because a novel should be the most color blind experience we can have. I can't see the writer when I'm reading and I don't try to for the most part. If it's good writing I enjoy it. The writer doesn't come into play. There are weird counters though. For example, when you learn a bit about Lewis Caroll you read Alice in Wonderland differently. All in all though, I take a book at face value and don't delve into the history of its creator.

[Riggo-toni]

Wtf?

I was ok with LGBT...just recently figured out (I think) LGBTQ....

WTF IS LGBTQI? Does the I stand for incestuous? Investigating?...or was it supposed to be a small i for integer...as in must have multiple partners simultaneously...or do these a_holes just need to appropriate every ****ing letter in the alphabet!?!

 

And screw this whiny wench and her pc nonsense.  No wonder they had to take away all their citizens' guns.

[GhostofSparta]

3 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

WTF IS LGBTQI? Does the I stand for incestuous? Investigating?

The "I" stands for Intersex. Also there's an "A" at the end for Asexual. And you forgot the "+" at the end. So it's not just the alphabet, they're stealing numerical signs as well.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[The Evil Genius]

Which makes me think this guy was a genius, Ghost...or a time traveler.

 

 

 

edit..

Quote

a term that refers to the objections by members of minority groups to the use of their customs or culture (or even characters of their ethnicity) by artists or others who do not belong to those groups.

 

Um..not to quibble, but I don't think thats entirely the definition of that term. It more directly talks about the assimilation of that minorities culture by another more major culture. Like white frat boys talking on the culture of a largely african american driven rap music in the late 80's/early 90's. 

Can't we can all agree that that was (mostly) bad?

[Destino]

1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

Um..not to quibble, but I don't think thats entirely the definition of that term. It more directly talks about the assimilation of that minorities culture by another more major culture. Like white frat boys talking on the culture of a largely african american driven rap music in the late 80's/early 90's. 

Can't we can all agree that that was (mostly) bad?

No.  I think what you are describing as bad fails because it fails to understand how culture works.  When cultures share the same space they start to blend by adopting bits of each other.  Spanish speakers start speaking Spanglish and making Texmex food.  Raggaeton springs into existence.  Examples of elements of one culture being adopted by another are endless and undeniable virtually everywhere. 

Has anyone ever succeeded at getting large groups of human beings to view new ideas, fashion, food, art, and style and immediately view them as off limits?  It seems like history is full of examples of people that would have liked to.  Most of them were probably terrible racists or religious fanatics though. Isn't one of the reasons Islamic hardliners are so anti-west is because they see and fear western culture infiltrating their own?  Creepy company to keep.

[AsburySkinsFan]

11 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

This is ridiculousness in my opinion. I read an article a while back about people getting angry at Chef Rick Bayless for cooking "authentic Mexican cuisine" or some such non-sense. That he shouldn't make Mexican food because he's a white male from Chicago. WTH?

Oh I've gone round and round with Libs about this. It's apparently cultural appropriation for Megan Trainor to sing like a black person because she grew up in the Hamptons or something, but Amy Winehouse is fine because she was strung out on drugs. It must also be appropriation when PF Changs service Chinese cuisine but is owned by a white guy, but a Japanese company can serve burgers and that's ok.

The whole thing is absurd, everyone is living with these hyper defined personal rules of offense which is forcing everyone into vanilla living. Don't even get me started on Halloween costumes. 

[Springfield]

So this thread isn't about white people stealing black culture since the 30's and then making boatloads of money off of it?