Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[The Evil Genius]

Seems like it's a good time to post this.

 

It's a reminder of the reason why Kaep and others started kneeling instead of sitting on the bench during the anthem.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

7 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I agree, but I guess I give him a pass for not casting a single vote if his name recognition and protests could reach millions of people. To me it's like looking the other way if someone doesn't drop a dollar in the Salvation Army bin at Christmas, knowing that they donate $1M per year to charity. 

 

Then I guess the opposite of that would be looking the other way while someone takes that empty Salvation Army bin, grinning, then proceeds to stuff it with garbage, then dump it all over the charity kids' heads.

[Elessar78]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Then I guess the opposite of that would be looking the other way while someone takes that empty Salvation Army bin, grinning, then proceeds to stuff it with garbage, then dump it all over the charity kids' heads.

I think not voting shows that this isn't a left/right thing. He doesn't feel one party is the solution over the other—that both have been in power at various stages and the problem is still endemic in American society. 

[The Evil Genius]

1 minute ago, Elessar78 said:

I think not voting shows that this isn't a left/right thing. He doesn't feel one party is the solution over the other—that both have been in power at various stages and the problem is still endemic in American society. 

 

And he has said that. Kaepernick was very vocal about being against HRC too in the election. He said it didn't matter who won since the system remains intact that oppresses people of color. 

 

Can't say I'd agree with that, but it's his right to not vote as much as it is his right to vote.

[Mr. Sinister]

3 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

I think not voting shows that this isn't a left/right thing. He doesn't feel one party is the solution over the other—that both have been in power at various stages and the problem is still endemic in American society. 

 

Not voting shows it isn't anything. Problems don't always magically fix themselves, or require pressuring people in positions of power to change their course/do the right thing

 

Sometimes (actually no, all the time) it's about doing your part to make sure the right people, better people, slightly better people, end up in office, and after that, better people than them, and so forth.

 

Sitting on your ass with some grand idea of how you think the world ought to be does absolutely nothing but maintain the status quo, and keep you suspended in an indefinite loop of hypocrisy... Mad at everything, unwilling to help change anything.

[Elessar78]

7 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

And he has said that. Kaepernick was very vocal about being against HRC too in the election. He said it didn't matter who won since the system remains intact that oppresses people of color. 

 

Can't say I'd agree with that, but it's his right to not vote as much as it is his right to vote.

Who cares what he said in the past? This is what I said. Now. On ES. Carve it in a stone tablet. 

Just now, Mr. Sinister said:

 

 

Sitting on your ass with some grand idea of how you think the world ought to be does absolutely nothing but maintain the status quo, and keep you suspended in an indefinite loop of hypocrisy... Mad at everything, unwilling to help change anything.

But he did do something. He had a platform viewed by millions. And he used it. Hombre didn't even announce he was going to do it, IIRC. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Not voting shows it isn't anything. Problems don't always magically fix themselves, or require pressuring people in positions of power to change their course/do the right thing

 

Sometimes (actually no, all the time) it's about doing your part to make sure the right people, better people, slightly better people, end up in office, and after that, better people than them, and so forth.

 

Sitting on your ass with some grand idea of how you think the world ought to be does absolutely nothing but maintain the status quo, and keep you suspended in an indefinite loop of hypocrisy... Mad at everything, unwilling to help change anything.

 

Which do you think has a larger impact (understanding he could have done both): 

 

1) Creating the stir that he did to bring to the forefront an issue he believes permeates our culture?

2) Casting one vote between individuals he has no confidence will do anything different than the status quo?

 

Listen, I'm NOT a Kaepernick fan at all...but I think it's clear that he has SUCCESSFULLY changed more minds and probably gotten our country further in this conversation through his actions than he would have by voting for someone in a general election. 

[Fresh8686]

54 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Seems like it's a good time to post this.

 

It's a reminder of the reason why Kaep and others started kneeling instead of sitting on the bench during the anthem.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for linking this... some really good excerpts about the intent of this that puts quite a hole in the whole this is at least a conscious sign of disrespect from the players protesting.
 

Quote

From Kaepernick

We sorta came to a middle ground where he would take a knee alongside his teammate. Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother’s grave, you know, to show respect. When we’re on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security.

 

Quote

From Eric Reid

 
After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former NFL player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

 

Quote

From Eric Boyer
 

[Kaepernick] reached out and we were able to sit down together for a couple of hours before the last preseason game last year. It was really cool to hear him just listen, too, and be very open-minded, too, and [say] “Look, I don’t want to hurt you, I don’t want to hurt your brothers and sisters.” I showed him text messages of friends of mine and some of them were saying I was a disgrace to the Green Berets ’cause I was even meeting with him. And some of them were like, “I’m with you man but it really hurts me to see that.”

So when I talked to them, it was mutual. Me, him, and Eric Reid [said] “I think maybe taking a knee would be a little more respectful. It’s still a demonstration. You’re still saying something but, people take a knee to pray. So for me it was a common ground, at least, to start from.

 

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

This thread probably isnt even created, let alone hit 123 pages without Kap. He wanted to start a discussion, seems like he accomplished that.

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

10 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Which do you think has a larger impact (understanding he could have done both): 

 

1) Creating the stir that he did to bring to the forefront an issue he believes permeates our culture?

2) Casting one vote between individuals he has no confidence will do anything different than the status quo?

 

Listen, I'm NOT a Kaepernick fan at all...but I think it's clear that he has SUCCESSFULLY changed more minds and probably gotten our country further in this conversation through his actions than he would have by voting for someone in a general election. 

 

Funny.... I am a Kaepernick fan, precisely because of what he has accomplished, and said that despite him not voting, it doesnt deter me from the bigger picture of what he has done. 

 

However, the viewpoint you have seems incredibly shortsighted.  It isn't an either/or thing.

 

The route he chose was the harder one, no question, and the fact that he didn't vote may not seem all that important, individually, but what you are missing is that while on the activism side he represents a growing collective consciousness on many racially charged issues that affect the black community, on the voter inaction side (when paired with his specific grievances), he also represented a profound  collective ignorance, one in which the consequence (Donald Trump and the rise of "Trumpism") has a direct counter effect to his protest, no matter how more impactful it may be.

 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Funny.... I am a Kaepernick fan, precisely because of what he has accomplished, and said that despite him not voting, it doesnt deter me from the bigger picture of what he has done. 

 

However, the viewpoint you have seems incredibly shortsighted.  It isn't an either/or thing.

 

The route he chose was the harder one, no question, and the fact that he didn't vote may not seem all that important, individually, but what you are missing is that while on the activism side he represents a growing collective consciousness on many racially charged issues that affect the black community, on the voter inaction side (when paired with his specific grievances), he also represented a profound  collective ignorance, one in which the consequence (Donald Trump and the rise of "Trumpism") has a direct counter effect to his protest, no matter how more impactful it may be.

 

 

 

 

I think that "ignorance" is overblown, to be honest. I don't know where he casts his vote, but there are certainly areas where votes both figuratively and literally don't matter. One additional popular vote isn't going to do anything. I realize there are also purple regions where every vote does matter as well. 

[Mr. Sinister]

4 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think that "ignorance" is overblown, to be honest. I don't know where he casts his vote, but there are certainly areas where votes both figuratively and literally don't matter. One additional popular vote isn't going to do anything. I realize there are also purple regions where every vote does matter as well. 

 

That's certainly one way of looking at it (and a logical way to play it).

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, Mr. Sinister said:

 

That's certainly one way of looking at it (and a logical way to play it).

 

I appreciate your discourse on this...I just think the fact that he didn't vote is such a non-issue compared to what he's helped to illuminate. Of course, we should all vote. But I don't buy into the "if you didn't vote, shut up and accept what happened" mindset (I realize you don't either). 

 

Zooming out even further, I don't need Kaepernick to be perfect or even overall good. He stands (hahaha) for something important and, flawed or not as an individual, I respect that. His shortcomings or missteps shouldn't take away from what he's promoting. 

 

(To reiterate, I think you agree with most or all of that above - this is my polite way of tapping out since I think you and I agree on most of this stuff and have zero'd in on one fundamental difference). 

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think that "ignorance" is overblown, to be honest. I don't know where he casts his vote, but there are certainly areas where votes both figuratively and literally don't matter. One additional popular vote isn't going to do anything. I realize there are also purple regions where every vote does matter as well. 

 

You really only get one say in our government, assuming you choose to not work for/in the government. It's with your vote. If you don't understand that maybe you're not the right person to lead a social change. It's one more item on the list of reasons why he's a clown. 

 

Not to mention he's a member of a group, an appealing to a group, that is notorious for not voting which has a incredibly huge impact on our government. And he's out there saying he doesn't think voting matters. 

 

(I don't have a problem with him kneeling)

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, tshile said:

 

You really only get one say in our government, assuming you choose to not work for/in the government. It's with your vote. If you don't understand that maybe you're not the right person to lead a social change. It's one more item on the list of reasons why he's a clown. 

 

Not to mention he's a member of a group, an appealing to a group, that is notorious for not voting which has a incredibly huge impact on our government. And he's out there saying he doesn't think voting matters. 

 

(I don't have a problem with him kneeling)

 

Fair criticism. I'm not here advocating for Kaepernick. I'm simply saying that his impact has been 1) important and 2) overall good. He doesn't have to do everything right to be right about this. He also doesn't necessarily need to "lead a social change" simply because he had an issue with minorities being abused and wanted to take a stand on it. He seemed comfortable doing that on his own terms whether everyone agreed or disagreed with him. I respect that. 

[Mr. Sinister]

 

8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I appreciate your discourse on this...I just think the fact that he didn't vote is such a non-issue compared to what he's helped to illuminate. Of course, we should all vote. But I don't buy into the "if you didn't vote, shut up and accept what happened" mindset (I realize you don't either). 

 

Zooming out even further, I don't need Kaepernick to be perfect or even overall good. He stands (hahaha) for something important and, flawed or not as an individual, I respect that. His shortcomings or missteps shouldn't take away from what he's promoting. 

 

(To reiterate, I think you agree with most or all of that above - this is my polite way of tapping out since I think you and I agree on most of this stuff and have zero'd in on one fundamental difference). 

 

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Fair criticism. I'm not here advocating for Kaepernick. I'm simply saying that his impact has been 1) important and 2) overall good. He doesn't have to do everything right to be right about this. He also doesn't necessarily need to "lead a social change" simply because he had an issue with minorities being abused and wanted to take a stand on it. He seemed comfortable doing that on his own terms whether everyone agreed or disagreed with him. I respect that. 

 

Yeah, I was just commenting more on the voting part. Wars are waged over the right to vote. People are killed for it. When I see someone with millions of dollars and a super star to the youth talking so nonchalantly about how meaningless it is to vote, I have a problem with that. We have a 2-for-1 issue with voting, and it's a major issue, with there being some people set on preventing certain people from voting, and some groups of people who just don't bother to show up and vote for whatever reason (lacking an inspiring candidate, for example.) It has created the current government and is a constant part of how our government does or doesn't change.

 

You want to stand up in front of the country and talk about systemic racism and how it shows up in police treatment/brutality/murder of people of color in this country? And in the same breath say voting is meaningless/waste of time/ whatever?

 

Then you're an idiot.

 

I disagree with you on the other stuff but my disagreement doesn't really matter. Ultimately I'm on the same side as you (and him) on this one, which is what matters. The rest is picking at nits.

Edited September 4, 2018 by tshile

[Llevron]

Color me surprised but Trump actually took an adults stance on this. Though I do find it interesting that he acknowledges Nikes right to choose and not the NFL's or Kaps right to protest. You have to do more mental loops to differentiate Nikes actions from the NFLs than you do just saying its all bad or all good. Which always makes me wonder if hes just that dumb or just that evil. Who really knows. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, tshile said:

 

Yeah, I was just commenting more on the voting part. Wars are waged over the right to vote. People are killed for it. When I see someone with millions of dollars and a super star to the youth talking so nonchalantly about how meaningless it is to vote, I have a problem with that. We have a 2-for-1 issue with voting, and it's a major issue, with there being some people set on preventing certain people from voting, and some groups of people who just don't bother to show up and vote for whatever reason (lacking an inspiring candidate, for example.) It has created the current government and is a constant part of how our government does or doesn't change.

 

You want to stand up in front of the country and talk about systemic racism and how it shows up in police treatment/brutality/murder of people of color in this country? And in the same breath say voting is meaningless/waste of time/ whatever?

 

Then you're an idiot.

 

 

I get it, that's fair. But, in his defense, he's allowed to speak out against something without needing to be perfect in the rest of his life. But, I see your point...ideally he'd be the "role model" that he could be with this platform. 

[tshile]

Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I get it, that's fair. But, in his defense, he's allowed to speak out against something without needing to be perfect in the rest of his life. But, I see your point...ideally he'd be the "role model" that he could be with this platform. 

 

Yeah, definitely not trying to require him to be a Saint. I'm with you there. And like you said, he doesn't need to be a 'leader', but he's been made one because he's a punching bag and opponents love to nominate the punching bag to leader if they can.

 

Between him and the rest of what's going on in our government I get a little irritated when people suggest voting doesn't matter. It quite clearly does. That's all. 

[Renegade7]

48 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

This thread probably isnt even created, let alone hit 123 pages without Kap. He wanted to start a discussion, seems like he accomplished that.

 

 

 

Interesting point to add is the "Cops that should lose their Job" thread is 125 pages.  He has us talking alright, just wish this thread wasn't as big as that one. 

[The Evil Genius]

53 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Color me surprised but Trump actually took an adults stance on this. Though I do find it interesting that he acknowledges Nikes right to choose and not the NFL's or Kaps right to protest. You have to do more mental loops to differentiate Nikes actions from the NFLs than you do just saying its all bad or all good. Which always makes me wonder if hes just that dumb or just that evil. Who really knows. 

 

It was financially driven as Nike is a tenant of his (and they pay him a lot of money according to him).

 

So the President is a whore....

Edited September 4, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[purbeast]

2 hours ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

For those of you not agreeing with the Pat Tillman reference, because he has nothing to do with the current situation yes I agree Tillman has nothing to do with the current debate or subject matter, however he has everything to do with the NFL and sacrifice he was referenced by me mainly because of the nike ad with Kaeps picture and the quote "Believe in something. Even if it means sacrificing everything" Tillman was used as an example of how out of touch nike was with that quote......but yes Tillman has not much to do with the current debate or subject other than that and for the record just because i disagee with Colin Kapernick does not mean im a racist thank you very much. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation.  Like at all.  It's akin to people bringing up how there are more deaths due to cigarettes than guns when talking about the gun control.  

[purbeast]

LOL.

 

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

 

You really only get one say in our government, assuming you choose to not work for/in the government. It's with your vote.

Disagree with this

 

It is ignorant as hell not to vote and seeing how the GOP is intent on making sure persons of color can’t vote, that shows the power of the vote.

 

However, protesting is another form of changing things. Another way to get your voice heard. The Civil Rights movement doesn’t happen if those people just said vote. The movement made changes because they were willing to get in front of cameras and appeal to morality and decency and civil disobedience.

 

Protesting is another way to make changes in our society and it’s a reason why many people are anti NFL players kneeling. They know it’s power as well and ability to mJe change.