Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[BornaSkinsFan83]

Watched a Muhammed Ali documentary a few weeks back. He didn't know **** and he was a mess when he first started out. Problem for Kaep is he isn't Ali. Ali was good enough (duh) that he could stay relevant while he grew up politically to become what be eventually became. Kaep doesn't have that luxury.

That said, if Kaep is the start of something bigger, then maybe it spreads to someone who can properly handle it. Doubt it's going to be him though,  unfortunately.

[DM72]

1 hour ago, DogofWar1 said:

Saw this, thought it relevant.

Protest seems contained to National Anthem.

 

He said that he had nothing against the military from day one of this protest. Some chose to ignore that.

[Going Commando]

I think one of the funniest things to come out from this story was that Rodney Harrison didn't know Colin Kaepernick was mixed.  How dumb is he?  Wasn't he covering that Superbowl where one of the biggest story lines in the run up to the game was Kaepernick's background as a mixed child put up for adoption and raised by a white family and that his birth mom was trying to weasel her way back into his life after he got rich and famous?

I enjoy Harrison as a commentator but I'm not sure he follows the NFL.

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 hours ago, RonArtest15 said:

Trying to gain perspective from someone else's POV is essential in trying to find any sort of common ground.

If everyone had this perspective, then racism, sexism, ageism, classicism, and all the other isms would be dead.

Unfortunately a lot of people lack that, including many in this thread.

2 hours ago, Popeman38 said:

You can give your opinion and position and defend his action. But you are going on an on dismissing others peoples opinions and positions and insulting them.

I dig what you saying, the problem is most people on here who disagree with Kaepernick's position are dismissing his opinon.

 

Also, many people on this forum dismiss the opinions and views of oppressed people in this country. Earlier in this thread, soe of the yahoos were arguing that the issues in the African Americans community are a culture based problem and argued that African Americans are not shot more and killed by the police at a higher rate than white people.

If you are going to go at me, make sure you go at them as well. (not saying you haven't by the way)

[Mr. Sinister]

 

 

19 minutes ago, BornaSkinsFan83 said:

 

That said, if Kaep is the start of something bigger, then maybe it spreads to someone who can properly handle it. Doubt it's going to be him though,  unfortunately.

And that is all that matters. Creating a spark. Doesnt have to be him that carries the torch. What he is doing is providing a sense of empowerment, likely putting his career on the line and encouraging others in a way that tells them to rip off the muzzle that the NFL loves to put on its athletes, and step up.

Tear down their  code of secrecy when it comes to "distractions". Make it uncomfortable for people who just want an out and let them know that they're more than just pieces of meat out there to entertain them, and are very damn capable of making their voices heard, no matter what some statistic on a paper says about their mental capabilities

Edited September 2, 2016 by Mr. Sinister

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

It wasn't a major topic in the first segment of pretty much every cable tv news show, for the last 2 years or so, at least once a week if not 5 times a week.

It hasn't been. Only when the chance of oppressed persons rioting or starting violence is it a story. Only when a cop shoots an unarmed black person was it a story.

The greater underlying issues as to why it happens, and oppression, white supremacy, and white privilege in this country has never been a story.

Moreover, why don't we start learning about the ENTIRE history of this country?

49 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

His message and actions were muddled and immediately construed as anti-military and anti-American.

He was very clear in what he was protesting for. The fault is not with what Kaepernick said or did. The fault is with the media and sycophants who cannot think critically to see what he was saying but instead fall for the low hanging fruit, and refuse to understand. There was never anything muddled about obvious his message.

[Bozo the kKklown]

51 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kaepernick is no Kareem.  Kareem can hold court on an hour long NPR show on civil rights issues that effect black people and Muslim Americans with unimpeachable dignity and eloquence.

1) Kaepernick never requested to be Kareem.

2) Most of you don't listen to Kareem when he speaks on these matters anyway.

 

Thats why this conversation is so disingenuous. You guys cite these people who you don't listen to at all. Mention past protests that were mostly hated by mainstream America, and pretend to put a different light on it now to shame anyone who protests now. Its what this country has done to MLK's messages.

[Going Commando]

15 minutes ago, BornaSkinsFan83 said:

Watched a Muhammed Ali documentary a few weeks back. He didn't know **** and he was a mess when he first started out. Problem for Kaep is he isn't Ali. Ali was good enough (duh) that he could stay relevant while he grew up politically to become what be eventually became. Kaep doesn't have that luxury.

That said, if Kaep is the start of something bigger, then maybe it spreads to someone who can properly handle it. Doubt it's going to be him though,  unfortunately.

 

This is not your point, but I want to say that Kaepernick is good.  He got screwed when Harbaugh got pushed out just like almost every young franchise QB gets screwed when the coach that picked him to be their guy gets canned.  Franchise QBs are made, not found.  And it takes a long time and a lot of stability for them to develop the kind of experience and cachet to prop their organization up on their backs and weather changes to the front office and the staff without missing a beat.  But the dude is as talented as any QB in the league.  He was drafted as a pitcher by the Cubs.  One of the strongest arms you'll ever see and he can run.  Ran Chris Ault's revolutionary pistol option offense at Nevada and put up career numbers that were special.  And he was off to a great start in his NFL career before the **** with Harbaugh went down.  He could have had a great career if not for that.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

I, like many here, am a very proud American who know that our country is not perfect but it is the best country on this planet by a wide margin.

I am white and not a POC so I am not going to pretend to know what it is like to be so in this country. My wife is black and we have a daughter together. My opinion is that there is a lot of work to be done on all sides. Profiling, micro aggression and white peoples elevated fear of the black male is very real and present. On the other side, profiling and elevated fear is by product of the statistics that you see thrown around.

To me, it comes down to your environment and exposure. My wifes family who lived in SE smoked crack in the 80s and 90s and are all on assistance in W VA right now. Almost every single one. My wife did not grow up in SE bc her mom was literally a crack whore and she was raised by her aunt in the suburbs of MD. My wife went to college. My wifes younger brother grew up with his dad in Indiana and he is now a doctor.  

I lived in Baltimore city and saw the kids walking the streets. Sometimes the teenagers would just stand in front of may car cursing me as whitey. But they have NOTHING to do. There is nothing for them in the city but to mimic what is around them and that is loitering and petty crimes. The scariest person in baltimore city are the 12 to 14 year olds bc they will stab or shoot you in a street robbery. They dont know what they are doing. The older ones will just professionally rob you. 

I support Kaepernick and anyone elses personally held beliefs and their right to free speech and expression. I read an article in the Sun last week where the community was holding one meeting re getting police to stop there "stop and frisk" policy for people on the street corners and right next door in the other room was a meeting of concerned citizens of that same community wanting police to clear the corners (aka stop and frisk) bc they are too scared to go out after dark. 

There is a lot of work to do on all sides. 

I would like to see people like Kaep do more than retweet or sit during the anthem. If you believe strongly in something, use your position to make a change on a micro level. Donate and build a community center or pool. Set up scholarship programs for kids so when they are in middle school, they know that if they graduate HS, there is financial support there. Give them goals. Give them a light at the end of tunnel. The kids need a reason to try bc the odds are hugely stacked against them. 

So when a 12 year old is blocking my car and screaming at me whitey to get out, im not mad at the kid. The kid is bored, angry and marginalized. Society has failed them and their own community has failed them. 

[Going Commando]

9 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

He was very clear in what he was protesting for. The fault is not with what Kaepernick said or did. The fault is with the media and sycophants who cannot think critically to see what he was saying but instead fall for the low hanging fruit, and refuse to understand. There was never anything muddled about obvious his message.

 

No, his message and actions were not clear.  People didn't know why he was sitting until he went on a convoluted explanation that seemed to bash the country, speak very generally of oppression, and make vague references about people getting paid leave for murder.  It was **** messaging and the result was he was immediately knocked off message and the public response was overwhelmingly negative.  But that's the media's and everyone else's fault?

Even now that he's trying to clarify himself, tying the protest to the anthem is a mixed message that is leading people who support him to flirt with a ginned up assertion that the anthem is racist that will absolutely alienate a majority of the country and cause his protest to wither on the vine.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Ali too dumb; Kareem too smart.

This is a really fascinating discussion.

[StillUnknown]

4 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

There is a lot of work to do on all sides. 

I would like to see people like Kaep do more than retweet or sit during the anthem. If you believe strongly in something, use your position to make a change on a micro level. Donate and build a community center or pool. Set up scholarship programs for kids so when they are in middle school, they know that if they graduate HS, there is financial support there. Give them goals. Give them a light at the end of tunnel. The kids need a reason to try bc the odds are hugely stacked against them.

 

Kap mentioned in his presser after the game that he's donating 1million to various organizations that do the kind of work he wants to be involved in.  He also said that he's meeting with those organizations so that he can be something beyond a voice.

[Corcaigh]

7 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

So when a 12 year old is blocking my car and screaming at me whitey to get out, im not mad at the kid. The kid is bored, angry and marginalized. Society has failed them and their own community has failed them. 

 

It's not emphasized enough but the failures in policing that we hear about come long after a failure of local government. Asking the police to somehow perfectly manage and control dysfunctional areas of town is always going to have failures.

It doesn't excuse bad policing, but too often we're asking police to do too much.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Corcaigh

[Popeman38]

22 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I dig what you saying, the problem is most people on here who disagree with Kaepernick's position are dismissing his opinon.

 

Also, many people on this forum dismiss the opinions and views of oppressed people in this country. Earlier in this thread, soe of the yahoos were arguing that the issues in the African Americans community are a culture based problem and argued that African Americans are not shot more and killed by the police at a higher rate than white people.

If you are going to go at me, make sure you go at them as well. (not saying you haven't by the way)

I'm not going at you. I have no issue with Kap sitting/kneeling/donating/going vegan/dedication/socks any of it. I honestly have no problem with your posts - when people are passionate about a subject that generally comes through.

[Going Commando]

8 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Ali too dumb; Kareem too smart.

This is a really fascinating discussion.

 

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but Kareem is very smart.  He is extremely accomplished off the court.  Erudite, dignified, and well versed in politics.  Not a novice.  I think he could have been a notable civil rights author and advocate even if he hadn't played basketball.

[Bozo the kKklown]

30 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

No, his message and actions were not clear.  People didn't know why he was sitting until he went on a convoluted explanation that seemed to bash the country, speak very generally of oppression, and make vague references about people getting paid leave for murder. 

Quote

CK: Yes. I’ll continue to sit. . . I’m going to continue to stand with the people that are being oppressed. To me this is something that has to change. When there’s significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it’s supposed to represent, this country is representing people the way that it’s supposed to, I’ll stand.

...

CK: There’s a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality. There’s people being murdered unjustly and not being held accountable. People are being given paid leave for killing people. That’s not right. That’s not right by anyone’s standards.

...

CK: There have been situations where I feel like I’ve been ill-treated, yes. This stand wasn’t for me. This stand wasn’t because I feel like I’m being put down in any kind of way. This is because I’m seeing things happen to people that don’t have a voice, people that don’t have a platform to talk and have their voices heard, and effect change. So I’m in the position where I can do that and I’m going to do that for people that can’t.

You can read the transcript here. If you didn't understand what he said, then you did not want to understand. It is that simple, and I will not spell it out for you.

http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2016/08/28/transcript-colin-kaepernick-addresses-sitting-during-national-anthem/

Edited September 2, 2016 by BenningRoadSkin

[LD0506]

39 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

1) Kaepernick never requested to be Kareem.

2) Most of you don't listen to Kareem when he speaks on these matters anyway.

 

Thats why this conversation is so disingenuous. You guys cite these people who you don't listen to at all. Mention past protests that were mostly hated by mainstream America, and pretend to put a different light on it now to shame anyone who protests now. Its what this country has done to MLK's messages.

When you're right, you're right. People (not just white people) that can stand at a distance do, talk or criticize or make fun but stand apart from whatever is happening. Makes it damned difficult if you're passionately trying to make a point, especially if it is something necessary and important. People ignoring it or just making memes out of it tends to piss a body off. I get that. But sometime, somewhere the question needs to be asked of priorities, what's more important? The message I want to convey and garnering support for it, or being pissed off and screaming epithets back at those that rattled your cage? A protest is not the same thing as a tantrum.

BIG conversations need to happen, honest, open, argumentative conversations need to happen, they have before and we're better off for them but extremes screaming at each other across a no mans land of the barren middle don't accomplish ****.

MLK is remembered and revered because he could keep his cool and stay on message, his demeanor and dignity shamed opponents into listening. I think all factions could use some of that nowadays.

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

MLK is remembered and revered because he could keep his cool and stay on message, his demeanor and dignity shamed opponents into listening. I think all factions could use some of that nowadays.

I don't disagree, but most of the people who cite MLK talk about listening to the I Have a Dream speech a million times a day to inspire them. Maybe they talk about the Birmingham jail letter.

The Poor People's Campaign? Ignored.

His speeches railing against the Vietnam War? No remembrance.

His speeches suggesting wealth redistribution? Ha!

His speeches against US foreign policy? Wait, I thought he ONLY wanted Civil Rights for black people?

MLK was a radical, but that stuff is not easy to digest for Mainstream America. So we keep it simple and say "I have a dream" But MLK was reviled back then as well. It only changed because he was murdered and corporations got a hold of his message.

[tshile]

Ali is before my time. Certainly how people viewed him then vs now is before my time, though I've heard enough people talk about it that I think I get the idea.

I've never once thought anyone, being critical or not, was accusing Ali of being dumb.

[LD0506]

10 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I don't disagree, but most of the people who cite MLK talk about listening to the I Have a Dream speech a million times a day to inspire them. Maybe they talk about the Birmingham jail letter.

The Poor People's Campaign? Ignored.

His speeches railing against the Vietnam War? No remembrance.

His speeches suggesting wealth redistribution? Ha!

His speeches against US foreign policy? Wait, I thought he ONLY wanted Civil Rights for black people?

MLK was a radical, but that stuff is not easy to digest for Mainstream America. So we keep it simple and say "I have a dream" But MLK was reviled back then as well. It only changed because he was murdered and corporations got a hold of his message.

I hear ya and for the most part I have to agree, but please, some people listened, some paid attention and took it to heart, some were changed by it enough to act.

Enough? Not even close

But it does no justice to his legacy to say no remembrance or ignored.

Has he in some ways become iconic, or even marketable? Yeah, sad to say, he has. Don't have a clue what to do about that.

But his message isn't gone, it hasn't faded away or lost its relevance just because the man died. Words live on and those that find truth in them are obliged to pass them forward.

[Burgold]

I actually respect Kap's decision to kneel much more. I think that can be viewed simultaneously as a symbol of protest and respect. In addition, he is saying that his first million will go towards the cause he believes in. These things do turn me more in his favor... though I do  think the sock thing is silly. 

Mind you, you're allowed to be silly, foolish, wrong, or right when it comes to our statements, beliefs, and freedom of speech.

17 minutes ago, tshile said:

Ali is before my time. Certainly how people viewed him then vs now is before my time, though I've heard enough people talk about it that I think I get the idea.

I've never once thought anyone, being critical or not, was accusing Ali of being dumb.

Before my time too, but I do remember hearing/reading about Ali being pretty villainized by some segments for a period of time especially over the Vietnam War stuff. By the end, he won almost everyone over. 

[tshile]

11 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Before my time too, but I do remember hearing/reading about Ali being pretty villainized by some segments for a period of time especially over the Vietnam War stuff. By the end, he won almost everyone over. 

Oh yeah, I know that part. I just don't remember anyone saying he was dumb... if anything it seemed like people thought he was savvy, quick witted, etc.

The Vietnam stuff went deep with a lot of people. I was watching the funeral with my father and he couldn't believe how many people had so many nice things to say about Ali because my father was still very much unhappy with the Vietnam stuff. He had the utmost respect for Ali as a fighter, enjoyed his 'act', and spoke fondly of memories of listening to the fights on the radio and how much everyone loved Ali before the vietnam stuff, but my father was forced into the military, so were his friends, and many people he knew (some friends) never came back home. None of them wanted to do it either, but they did. So to see this guy that 'contentiously objected' be lauded for it hits a nerve with him.

Same with draft dodgers that gets brought up with some presidents/candidates.

I don't have any experience with it, so it's super easy for me to overlook that aspect of things. I can only imagine how hard it might be if you were forced into the military because of a war you wanted nothing to do with, and you were either hurt or people you knew/cared for were hurt/killed. It seems like something those people don't forget are unwilling to let slide, and I have a hard time blaming them...

The benefit of hindsight in seeing the flaws in the Vietnam war also helps people like me look past it or even laud it. For quite a few people, they had to live through it and the hindsight is irrelevant.

Edited September 2, 2016 by tshile

[Bozo the kKklown]

12 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

I hear ya and for the most part I have to agree, but please, some people listened, some paid attention and took it to heart, some were changed by it enough to act.

Enough? Not even close

But it does no justice to his legacy to say no remembrance or ignored.

Has he in some ways become iconic, or even marketable? Yeah, sad to say, he has. Don't have a clue what to do about that.

But his message isn't gone, it hasn't faded away or lost its relevance just because the man died. Words live on and those that find truth in them are obliged to pass them forward.

I am not saying his message was ignored. I am saying people took his message and have used it to subvert other protests and actions, and ignore other aspects of his message.

[SemperFi Skins]

13 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I actually respect Kap's decision to kneel much more. I think that can be viewed simultaneously as a symbol of protest and respect. In addition, his agent is saying that he better donate his first million will go towards trying to save his face or he will never have a job in the NFL again. These things do turn me more in his favor... though I do  think the sock thing is silly. 

Mind you, you're allowed to be silly, foolish, wrong, or right when it comes to our statements, beliefs, and freedom of speech.

 

 

Fixed it for you

[PCS]

Now see,you all have it wrong. I found out,(via social media of course),that this whole Kaepernick thing is a diversion. Yep. It's a diversion. It's media driven event in order to take attention from Hillary Clinton and her falling in the polls. She was on her way down,getting ready to cave in and bottom out on the polls,but the national media,who wants her elected,decided to cover Kap and his protest instead. 

 

*

 

I kid you not. The "Wow,I could have had V8" reaction by people as they agreed after "thinking about it" was something to behold. I've spent the morning reading Wikipedia in order not combat the stupid from seeing all that.