2017 Comprehensive NFL Draft Thread

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

8 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

If I think back to the Giant game and saw KC running for his life I would go with Lamp at 17. Our running game was weak so a upgrade at LG would help. Adding a running game would help our all around better team. I was against drafting a Guard at 5 but 17 is where the real good ones get drafted. I do not think Lamp will be there at 17 as the Colts draft before us and their #1 priority is protection for Luck.

 

Our run game also suffered because our TE's are not good blockers.  Vernon Davis is overrated in that category.

 

Lamp would help our run game, but he alone would not be the cure.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Our run game also suffered because our TE's are not good blockers.  Vernon Davis is overrated in that category.

 

Lamp would help our run game, but he alone would not be the cure.

You are right our TE'S are receivers not blockers but I want Lamp for pass protection too. Bet you dollars to do-nuts Lamp is not there at 17.

[Hail2theSkins24]

@Alcoholic Zebra Good analysis! I think Barnett will be much better than you think and I love the tremendous production at an SEC school. He will have to adjust to the speed of NFL but I am a huge fan

[Koolblue13]

We drafted a tackle at 5, not a guard. 

 

He was just beat out in camp, which says a lot about drafting a G in the first round if hes not very special. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

We drafted a tackle at 5, not a guard. 

 

He was just beat out in camp, which says a lot about drafting a G in the first round if hes not very special. 

 

 

Scherff? He was always going to play inside in the pro's. 

 

Everything pointed to him being all-pro dominant on the interior rather than just solid at tackle. Some had him down as a great tackle prospect but he was always going to be on the interior. 

 

Hail. 

[Koolblue13]

13 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

Scherff? He was always going to play inside in the pro's. 

 

Everything pointed to him being all-pro dominant on the interior rather than just solid at tackle. Some had him down as a great tackle prospect but he was always going to be on the interior. 

 

Hail. 

Okay.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

Man, Dalvin Cook is so good on tape. Makes me wonder how he tested like he did. Was he nursing injuries after the season and wasn't able to train much? Also, I'm in the extremely tiny boat that thinks Matt Jones can perform as an above average RB. I understand we can get a good RB in mid-rounds, but if we have to roll with Kelley, Jones, and Thompson? I'm so okay with that. Barring a guy like Foster/Lattimore/Allen falling to us, there are a few names I'm thinking we are interested in at 17. 

 

 

He's not my top pick at #17 (he was initially months ago) but the dude has been beaten up too much IMO on this thread.   If he's the guy, I am cool with it.   He can do it all IMO.  He's a yards after contact guy, he's elusive, he can hit the home run, and his hands are almost as good as McCaffrey's IMO.

 

He's the #1 ranked RB with PFF.  Dane Brugler who I respect as an evaluator has him as his #1 RB.  Unlike Fournette and McCaffrey, he risked his health and played in the bowl game.   His reputation is he will play whether he's nicked up or not -- he's a gamer.  He has the reputation of going full out and being a workaholic.   Chris Cooley in particular likes to say his biggest red flag is often does this guy love football or not?  Reading about Malik McDowell -- you'd wonder if he does.  Reading about Cook -- that's not a worry.  I bring up McDowell because that's another guy that gets debated on character -- but his issues worry me more than Cook. 

 

 I've watched Cook in multiple interviews, comes off to me as a thoughtful guy said he's learned from his mistakes.  I am not saying not to worry about past transgressions but some guys come off to me like bad guys in interviews like Greg Hardy -- if Dalvin is a problem child, he hides it well. His coach said "great guy, tremendous character guy, and I have never had any issues with him."  

 

He's talked about his shoulder injuries saying its heeled and they never cost him a game in his career.  

 

Here's a long article about his story and personality.   And while I don't discount some of his knuckle head decisions -- there are some explanations for some of them where he apparently was at the wrong place at the wrong time.   But yeah he's made some dumb decisions, could he be a problem, maybe but I think it could work out fine with him.  He doesn't have drug issues, problems with coaches or teammates. 

 

 I'd read the article below and judge accordingly. 

https://www.si.com/college-football/2016/03/10/dalvin-cook-fast-quiet-and-could-be-nations-top-rb

 

He ran faster at his pro-day.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/pro-day-roundup-teez-tabor-slow-dalvin-cook-shines-donta-foreman-helps-case/

Cook ran his two 40-yard dashes in the mid-4.4 range, both improvements from his time in Indianapolis. But where he truly impressed was during receiving drills, catching the ball well with effortless body control and burst. Cook was sharp in his movements and, for many, cemented himself as the top running back in the draft.

 

PFF College Football‏Verified account @PFF_College  6h6 hours ago

More

Dalvin Cook led the FBS in elusive rating, breaking 99 tackles and averaging 4.19 yards after contact.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

51 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Okay.

 

 

That was my observation immediately after that draft. That Scherff was the best interior lineman drafted who would get kicked outside as stop-gap in the interim until we bagged our RT. 

 

I thought everyone who watched him in college had him down on the interior? Shrugs,

 

Hail. 

[nemocystem]

Agree with GHH here.  Much if the hand-wringing over just the anticipation of that pick was all to do with paying a OG top 5 money becaue it was pretty mich a forgone conclusion.  I was on the side that wasn't all too satisfied with that being the pick if Williams, or Cooper were there because i just wasn't ecstatic with the value.  

 

Alas...i conceded, as many if us did, that were he to be the pick at 5 (which was all but assumed at this point), that at least you would likely be getting a perennial all-pro at OG to go with Williams, & hopefully Moses would develop.

 

I would say it all worked out, as i don't believe we would even have the luxury of debating a KC extension had we not drafted Scherff.  

[Skinsinparadise]

last thing on Cook

http://thepewterplank.com/2017/03/24/buccaneers-dalvin-cook-stock-dropping/

Here’s the part that really stuck out to me, though. An anonymous scout made a statement that was not only bold, but wildly dangerous. Now, I will preface the scout’s quote with this; again, this is the season of misleading, deception, and positioning. An anonymous scout could very well say something he knows will be published for the sole purpose of getting a player his team wants to potentially fall enough for them to draft him. That being said, this scout has a strong stance on Cook, telling Miller;

 

“The pattern of bad decisions are alarming, really. With my job on the line, I trust [Joe] Mixon a lot more than Dalvin Cook.”

Now wait a minute. Again, Cook has never been convicted of anything. Kelvin Hunt of ChopChat did a great job of breaking down Cook’s questionable past here and frankly, this seems like a lot to do about nothing.

 

Gil Arcia of Joe Bucs Fan found out who this particular scout was and apparently the two had a past;

 

 Follow

Gil Arcia @GilArciaBUCS

Know what's funny about the whole "scout told me if job on the line he trust Mixon more than Cook" report? Anybody wanna guess?

[Dark Acre]

1 hour ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

Scherff? He was always going to play inside in the pro's. 

 

Everything pointed to him being all-pro dominant on the interior rather than just solid at tackle. Some had him down as a great tackle prospect but he was always going to be on the interior. 

 

Hail. 

Given where we were, with an OL that had been bad for awhile, a new GM on his 2nd redemption tour, and the "we better not oof the #5 pick", it's really difficult to pan getting an OG who made the Pro Bowl in his 2nd season.

[saltydog75]

With Brown signed, I don't think we have any enormous, "must fill" gaps in our 2017 team (we do going forward, obviously).

 

However, I would argue against BPA for this reason: not all positions are equally valuable, and the proof is in the franchise tag cost (all in millions):

 

QB $23.8

LB $16.6 (mostly pass-rushing OLBs)

CB $15.7

OL $15.4

DT $15.2

WR $15.1

DE $14.7

TE $10.0

S  $9.9

RB $9.7

 

The surplus value you get is basically the franchise tag figure minus the standard rookie deal.  Basically, you should just go down that value chart in order, unless you clearly don't need that position filled or unless there's no player close to worth that pick.  It leads to an interesting draft.  I took grades for all players, adjusted for positional value (++ for QB, + for edge, -- for RB, etc) and came up with this:

 

17) Patrick Mahomes, QB, Texas Tech

49) Tyus Bowser, OLB, Houston

81) Cameron Sutton, CB, Tennessee

114) Isaac Asiata, G, Utah

123) Shelton Gibson, WR, West Virginia

154) Vincent Taylor, DT, Oklahoma State

201) Christian Brown, DT, West Virginia

209) Michael Roberts, TE, Toledo

220) Tedric Thompson, FS, Colorado

235) Marlon Mack, RB, South Florida

 

It kinda works out well.  Mahomes gets to sit a year under Cousins (this assumes he's gone after this year) and starts in year 2.  Bowser will rotate in on pass downs and gives more of a speed rush element.  Sutton is a day 1 starter at slot CB.  Asiata could start at G, worst case wait a year and plug him him at G/C.  Gibson gives you a deep threat.  Taylor and Brown are rotational DL bodies.  Roberts should be a good receiving TE and can learn to block while he rides the pine.  Thompson could eventually play at FS.  Mack's your future 3rd down back.

 

That's arguably better than a BPA available approach.  It prioritizes the most important spots on the field.

[CTskin]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He's the #1 ranked RB with PFF.  Dane Brugler who I respect as an evaluator has him as his #1 RB.  Unlike Fournette and McCaffrey, he risked his health and played in the bowl game.   His reputation is he will play whether he's nicked up or not -- he's a gamer.  He has the reputation of going full out and being a workaholic.   Chris Cooley in particular likes to say his biggest red flag is often does this guy love football or not?  Reading about Malik McDowell -- you'd wonder if he does.  Reading about Cook -- that's not a worry.  I bring up McDowell because that's another guy that gets debated on character -- but his issues worry me more than Cook. 

 

 I've watched Cook in multiple interviews, comes off to me as a thoughtful guy said he's learned from his mistakes.  I am not saying not to worry about past transgressions but some guys come off to me like bad guys in interviews like Greg Hardy -- if Dalvin is a problem child, he hides it well. His coach said "great guy, tremendous character guy, and I have never had any issues with him."  

Look at Jameis and Cam (aside from being bipolar). Both had huge question marks regarding their off-the-field decision making, but we haven't heard a peep about either since they became pros. 

 

My issue with Cook is the fumblitits disease; he has a severe case. It surprises me how many Skins fans look past that after dealing with Matt Jones the last couple years. Rob Kelly is the second coming of Alf, perfect for the system and I see a RB at #17 being more of a luxury pick. It depends on who's available, but if real needs can be addressed, I'd prefer to go in that direction.

[saltydog75]

6 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

I look at the current roster and see 5 positions where we are average or below average..

 

1) DL

 

2) Right OLB

 

3) Slot Corner

 

4) RB

 

5) LG

 

 

We have 5 picks in the first 4 rounds...if we can somehow address these 5 positions in the first 4 rounds, Bruce will get an A grade in my book for this off-season.

 

Out of curiosity, if Kirk walks after this year, what's your plan at QB?  I think you have to spend a high draft pick there.  You're never going to get a good QB on the open market and I find it hard to believe we're going to turn the offense over to a journeyman in McCoy or an unknown in Sudfeld.  I wish we didn't have to do it, but Allen bungled giving Kirk a long term deal and here we are.  QB is head and shoulders above all five of those in terms of importance.

[saltydog75]

3 minutes ago, CTskin said:

My issue with Cook is the fumblitits disease; he has a severe case. It surprises me how many Skins fans look past that after dealing with Matt Jones the last couple years. Rob Kelly is the second coming of Alf, perfect for the system and I see a RB at #17 being more of a luxury pick. It depends on who's available, but if real needs can be addressed, I'd prefer to go in that direction.

 

RB at #17 is a bad pick, whoever it is.  It's a devalued position.  You just need a guy who can pass block, catch the ball out of the backfield, and get a consistent 4 yards.  Just about anything other than a kicker or punter would be better there.  I don't care if you time travel back and get Barry Sanders in his prime.  If you don't have a good QB and an O-line to protect him along with a defense that can rush the passer, you won't be good.  The only point of the run game in 2017 is to keep the defense honest and salt away games late.  It's a pass-first league.

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, saltydog75 said:

 

Out of curiosity, if Kirk walks after this year, what's your plan at QB?  I think you have to spend a high draft pick there.  You're never going to get a good QB on the open market and I find it hard to believe we're going to turn the offense over to a journeyman in McCoy or an unknown in Sudfeld.  I wish we didn't have to do it, but Allen bungled giving Kirk a long term deal and here we are.  QB is head and shoulders above all five of those in terms of importance.

 

That hasn't happened yet, and this isn't even a good QB class. Next year looks to be much better. We absolutely do NOT have to do it, and when you went and based how important positions are on just how WE pay them (because, it's not like we're a model franchise in any way, shape, or form) you don't have a huge amount of credibility with that model in the first place.

 

That being said, if you are dumb enough to loose Kirk next year, you draft one in the first round, which is a better class anyway.

 

Also, we don't use DT's in our base 3-4, so either you don't understand how we use our DE's when we go to a 4-3, or forgot, you forgot a gaping hole in the defense. And no, they are not interchangable.

 

Your argument is based on a perceived truth that is not, and position importance based on salary, by a team that has been very bad at that for years.

 

Not convincing.

2 minutes ago, saltydog75 said:

 

RB at #17 is a bad pick, whoever it is.  It's a devalued position.  You just need a guy who can pass block, catch the ball out of the backfield, and get a consistent 4 yards.  Just about anything other than a kicker or punter would be better there.  I don't care if you time travel back and get Barry Sanders in his prime.  If you don't have a good QB and an O-line to protect him along with a defense that can rush the passer, you won't be good.  The only point of the run game in 2017 is to keep the defense honest and salt away games late.  It's a pass-first league.

 

Tell that to Dallas, and tell me how that worked out.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He ran faster at his pro-day.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/pro-day-roundup-teez-tabor-slow-dalvin-cook-shines-donta-foreman-helps-case/

Cook ran his two 40-yard dashes in the mid-4.4 range, both improvements from his time in Indianapolis. But where he truly impressed was during receiving drills, catching the ball well with effortless body control and burst. Cook was sharp in his movements and, for many, cemented himself as the top running back in the draft.

 

PFF College Football‏Verified account @PFF_College  6h6 hours ago

More

Dalvin Cook led the FBS in elusive rating, breaking 99 tackles and averaging 4.19 yards after contact.

 

A hand timed mid 4.4 40 is likely slower than the official 4.49 from the combine.  And even still, the difference between a mid 4.4 and 4.9 is negligible.  So I just looked it up, his first run at the pro day was north of 4.5 the second run was unofficially timed at 4.47.

 

PFF posts some interesting stuff from time to time, but I don't like their analytics.  There's no adjustment for strength of opposition or favorable situation or quality of teammate play around him.  They try to evaluate football like it's baseball, where things can more easily be put into a vacuum.

[saltydog75]

On 3/30/2017 at 10:14 AM, SkinssRvA said:

If we draft a QB at 17 I'll consider sitting out this season and not contributing a single dollar to the organization*.  It would signify a direction for the team that I'm not even close to comfortable with and would waste a pick that could potentially be spent on a defensive starter from day 1.  

 

*caveat being we are drafting QB at 17 for a team who has agreed to trade draft picks for him 

 

I don't understand your logic.  Defense is important.  QB is more important.  If the front office isn't confident they can sign Kirk long term, don't you have to start finding your QB for 2018 immediately?  Most NFL starters are drafted in the first round or high in the second.  If there's a guy you love, can you wait until pick #49?  I don't think so.  After day 1, teams will see their QB still on the board and move up to get him, not to mention all the other spots a QB might be selected:

 

1 CLE

2 SF

3 CHI

6 NYJ

12 CLE

25 HOU

33 CLE

34 SF

36 CHI

39 NYJ

 

You wait for pick 49, you have no idea who will be available.  If you like Peterman, he could very well go #33, #34, #36, or #39.  Those are perfect slots to draft a guy who isn't a consensus first rounder.

 

I think people are really burying their heads in the sand about life post-Kirk.  If you don't get a guy who you believe can start in 2018, you're basically writing that year off.  No one wins without a QB in today's NFL.  Much as I'd love to think he'll sign long term, your backup plan cannot be McCoy/Sudfeld and if it's someone else you're better off drafting now and letting him learn for a year rather than starting a rookie in 2018.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

1 hour ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Given where we were, with an OL that had been bad for awhile, a new GM on his 2nd redemption tour, and the "we better not oof the #5 pick", it's really difficult to pan getting an OG who made the Pro Bowl in his 2nd season.

 

 

Bizarre isn't it?

 

Hail. 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

1 hour ago, saltydog75 said:

 

Out of curiosity, if Kirk walks after this year, what's your plan at QB?  I think you have to spend a high draft pick there.  You're never going to get a good QB on the open market and I find it hard to believe we're going to turn the offense over to a journeyman in McCoy or an unknown in Sudfeld.  I wish we didn't have to do it, but Allen bungled giving Kirk a long term deal and here we are.  QB is head and shoulders above all five of those in terms of importance.

 

Next year is a better draft for QB's.....I would look at a QB this year, but not in the first 3 rounds.

[Est.1974]

Once the top 10-12 players are off the board I think we could end up in a rough spot picking at 17....

 

It looks to me like RB or trade out of that pick either way, unless someone unexpectedly drops from that top 10 group.

[HTTRDynasty]

Speaking of PFF, I was looking over their top 100 prospects of 2017 draft board and was curious to see how their top 150 prospects from 2016 have fared.  I didn't realize until now that every prospect we picked other than Sudfield and Marshall was on their big board.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

A hand timed mid 4.4 40 is likely slower than the official 4.49 from the combine.  And even still, the difference between a mid 4.4 and 4.9 is negligible.  So I just looked it up, his first run at the pro day was north of 4.5 the second run was unofficially timed at 4.47.

 

PFF posts some interesting stuff from time to time, but I don't like their analytics.  There's no adjustment for strength of opposition or favorable situation or quality of teammate play around him.  They try to evaluate football like it's baseball, where things can more easily be put into a vacuum.

 

For me on Cook, I don't need PFF to judge him.  I just added that for those who are interested.  I watched Cook more than any prospect in this draft by far -- saw my share of FSU games.   He ran for almost 1800 yards last season and caught for almost an additional 500 yards. Those are some insane numbers.   And he is to me the most fun watch among RBs -- he can take almost any run to the house.  I can't recall the last time the Redskins had a RB that explosive.  Portis was fast but not Cook level explosive.  Granted, will see if Cook is as explosive in the NFL but if he's in the same ball park -- he will be a one man highlight reel.   Plus Portis didn't have great hands.  Cook does.  Jay could go nuts with screens, wheel routes, etc.  Cook was FSU's 2nd most prolific receiver last year.

 

He's not my top pick at #17 in part because I think Kamara mirrors those same skills and can likely be had in the 2nd round.   Plus I want defense first and foremost.   But I'd dig it if he's the pick.   My main fear about Cook is he ends up in Philly.  A lot of buzz about him going there including B. Westbrook publicly touting that the Eagles should draft him.  We have enough problems stopping the run -- I'd rather not see him in our division. 

 

The character stuff I've delved into more -- I am not that concerned about it.  The stuff that worries me are drug problems, being tough to coach, being bad in locker rooms and having a poor work ethic.  Dalvin from what I've read not only doesn't have those as problems but is known for being a workaholic and its tough to get him off the field no matter how banged up he is. 

[Peregrine]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We drafted a tackle at 5, not a guard. 

 

He was just beat out in camp, which says a lot about drafting a G in the first round if hes not very special. 

No, it says more about drafting a 1st/2nd round Tackle in Moses in the 3rd round the year before, and letting him sit for a year as he was raw.  And it says always take the better player REGARDLESS of position, because by your reasoning the Giants had a better pick with Flowers.  Except they didnt, because hes horrible, and they hate him.  But gee, hes a tackle that was drafted later in the first round.  We should have taken him huh?

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

Bizarre isn't it?

 

Hail. 

I just dont want to rehash a tired argument and gum up the draft thread.

1 minute ago, Peregrine said:

No, it says more about drafting a 1st/2nd round Tackle in Moses in the 3rd round the year before, and letting him sit for a year as he was raw.  And it says always take the better player REGARDLESS of position, because by your reasoning the Giants had a better pick with Flowers.  Except they didnt, because hes horrible, and they hate him.  But gee, hes a tackle that was drafted later in the first round.  We should have taken him huh?

Are you kinda drunk?