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4 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

We all agree that ESB is the best movie by far.

 

In that movie, Luke trains with Yoda for maybe a week and a half. Seriously, his training his cross cut with the Falcon escaping from Hoth, going into an asteroid belt and going to Cloud City. That took three weeks tops.


this is what I meant about the criticism of Rey being a Mary Sue. Luke ran around for a couple weeks and picked up rocks and went toe to toe with Vader. That was after 1-2 days max training on the falcon with Obi Wan? But that was always ok. 
 

I was fine with Luke in TLJ because I just think about Luke after ROTJ. He’s the only one left. How does he become a Master Jedi with no teachers, a few months of training by that point and no knowledge of anything? He tried to start an academy and teach others and he failed, losing his best student and nephew to the dark side. i thought it added a lot of humanity to his story 

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22 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:


this is what I meant about the criticism of Rey being a Mary Sue. Luke ran around for a couple weeks and picked up rocks and went toe to toe with Vader. That was after 1-2 days max training on the falcon with Obi Wan? But that was always ok. 
 

I was fine with Luke in TLJ because I just think about Luke after ROTJ. He’s the only one left. How does he become a Master Jedi with no teachers, a few months of training by that point and no knowledge of anything? He tried to start an academy and teach others and he failed, losing his best student and nephew to the dark side. i thought it added a lot of humanity to his story 

 

1.  He didn't go toe-to-toe with Vader.  He was beaten badly to the point that he was lucky he didn't jump to his death, and the only reason Vader didn't kill him was because he wanted to turn him.  Vader let's Luke live because he doesn't want him dead.

 

2.  In the context of the story as told in TLJ and ROTJ, there is no real reason to believe he was alone.  He would have the force ghosts of at least Yoda (and it isn't clear why that wouldn't have included Obi Wan and Annikan).

 

TLJ is much worse movie than the Empire Strikes Back.

Edited by PeterMP
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6 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

In that movie, Luke trains with Yoda for maybe a week and a half. Seriously, his training his cross cut with the Falcon escaping from Hoth, going into an asteroid belt and going to Cloud City. That took three weeks tops. 

 

I'll point out based on the movie, it isn't at all clear how long that took.  The Falcon had a malfunctioning hyperspace drive.  Despite the Falcon leaving first, the Empire is able to figure out where they are going and beat them to Cloud City and establish some extent of control.

 

We don't know anything about the relevant distances, the speed at which they were travelling, or what if any stops the Falcon had to make first.

 

And even before that, Vader is able to organize a collection of bounty hunters to capture the Falcon.  We have very little idea how long the independent parts of the story took.

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1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

TLJ is much worse movie than the Empire Strikes Back


Never said it wasn’t but the OT isn’t as great as you like to think. It’s full of many of the same flaws both, in characters, plot-holes, and other inconsistencies that TLJ, ST, and PT have, but it’s just glossed over and ignored by most, usually due to nostalgia I imagine. 
 

Regardless, we’ve had this discussion before though and I have no desire to do it again. TLJ ruined the vision of Luke you had for 30+ years after ROTJ. I’m aware. Agree to disagree 

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1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:


Never said it wasn’t but the OT isn’t as great as you like to think. It’s full of many of the same flaws both, in characters, plot-holes, and other inconsistencies that TLJ, ST, and PT have, but it’s just glossed over and ignored by most, usually due to nostalgia I imagine. 
 

Regardless, we’ve had this discussion before though and I have no desire to do it again. TLJ ruined the vision of Luke you had for 30+ years after ROTJ. I’m aware. Agree to disagree 

 

No set of movies are perfect, especially in SciFi, but the last 2 movies (as a package) have been bad.  It had nothing to do with my vision of Luke for 30+ years.

 

The story telling has been bad.

 

(In the context of this conversation, you gave two things, and I've told you why you are wrong on both of them.  Neither one of them has to do with my vision of Luke post-ROTJ.  Look, you don't think as much about the stories as I do and that's fine.  But then realize that.  You disagree with me because you don't and haven't thought about the characters or the stories as much I have.

 

I don't care much about DC comics.  I watch the movies and will read the threads here, but I didn't read DC much growing up.  And I don't go into the DC comic threads and tell the people that clearly know and care more about DC comics than I do that they are wrong.)

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1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

this is what I meant about the criticism of Rey being a Mary Sue. Luke ran around for a couple weeks and picked up rocks and went toe to toe with Vader. That was after 1-2 days max training on the falcon with Obi Wan? But that was always ok. 

Vader was just toying with Luke.  He spent most of that duel with just one hand on his saber easily parrying all of Luke's strikes.

Honestly, outside of ROTJ, Luke never really shows to be very powerful.  And even then, he's weaker than The Emperor and possibly Vader.  Vader is still trying to turn him rather than kill him.  And the Emperor disabled Luke effortlessly and it took Vader to put an end to the Emperor.  Really, Luke's true strength was not giving up on the goodness in people, which is what makes his characterization in TLJ such a betrayal.  Despite how evil Vader had become, he saw the good in him and managed to turn him.  In Ben, he saw a sliver of darkness and decided to kill him while he slept rather than trying to keep him on the path of light?  Makes no sense.

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14 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

In that movie, Luke trains with Yoda for maybe a week and a half. Seriously, his training his cross cut with the Falcon escaping from Hoth, going into an asteroid belt and going to Cloud City. That took three weeks tops. 

I think your timeline could be off. How long does it take to reach Cloud City at sublight? That could be a very long time. Then, how long does Darth torture Han and Leia before Luke gives in and flies after them? We know from Star Wars that Leia is very tough and torture resistant by how well she resisted torture in the Death Star. It's most likely her Force sensitivity that allows a message to be sent. So, was she tortured for a day, a week, a month? It's been a while.

 

So, Luke was probably training off camera with Yoda for at least a couple months is my guess. I agree that's still a short window and Yoda agreed with you. In fact, he warned Luke not to go because he wasn't ready and indeed Luke wasn't. He got the bleep kicked out of him. 


Rey on the other hand got one lesson. Heck, even before that in the first movie, she goes toe to toe with Kylo and basically beats him which made me wonder if she had her mind wiped and had gone through significant Jedi training that she just didn't remember. I like the actress, but the screen writing and character development has been rushed. Too many plot lines and too little character development. 

 

That said, I actually like the new movies quite a bit. I would have written Luke's story differently, but that's often true. It's the great/terrible thing about art and artists. We each craft different visions. I'm okay with accepting theirs.

 

The new movies are a fun ride. I just wish they slowed it down. They have embraced the Return of the Jedi model which presents a ton of action and split narratives, but the downside to that is that the characters don't get a chance to interact and get chummy. It leaves us less time for us to get to know and like them. That's why we don't feel the warmth between the new characters in the same way as we did between Han, Leia, Luke, and Chewie. It's probably why as a character BB8 has so much less humanity than R2D2.

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9 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

Vader was just toying with Luke.  He spent most of that duel with just one hand on his saber easily parrying all of Luke's strikes.

Honestly, outside of ROTJ, Luke never really shows to be very powerful.  And even then, he's weaker than The Emperor and possibly Vader.  Vader is still trying to turn him rather than kill him.  And the Emperor disabled Luke effortlessly and it took Vader to put an end to the Emperor.  Really, Luke's true strength was not giving up on the goodness in people, which is what makes his characterization in TLJ such a betrayal.  Despite how evil Vader had become, he saw the good in him and managed to turn him.  In Ben, he saw a sliver of darkness and decided to kill him while he slept rather than trying to keep him on the path of light?  Makes no sense.

Yeah. And thats with Luke having trained with great Jedi Masters in Obi Wan and Yoda. Reys training to date comes out to Luke asking her if she could feel the force and then tickling her hand. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Marvel humor fits so well in Star Wars.

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11 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:


Never said it wasn’t but the OT isn’t as great as you like to think. It’s full of many of the same flaws both, in characters, plot-holes, and other inconsistencies that TLJ, ST, and PT have, but it’s just glossed over and ignored by most, usually due to nostalgia I imagine. 
 

Regardless, we’ve had this discussion before though and I have no desire to do it again. TLJ ruined the vision of Luke you had for 30+ years after ROTJ. I’m aware. Agree to disagree 

 

I've said this a dozen times. The Star Wars universe - on film at least - is incredibly small. Everyone in it is related to Anakin Sywalker, friends with Anakin Skywalker, or friends with his relatives. There are millions of planets and everyone is three degrees of separation from Anakin at most.

 

And the fans both hate this and want it to be the driving theme of the new trilogy. Rey needs to be related to someone we know already, because everyone else is related to someone we know already.

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3 hours ago, Burgold said:


Rey on the other hand got one lesson. Heck, even before that in the first movie, she goes toe to toe with Kylo and basically beats him which made me wonder if she had her mind wiped and had gone through significant Jedi training that she just didn't remember. I like the actress, but the screen writing and character development has been rushed. Too many plot lines and too little character development. 

 

 

Yes, but the movies have established that Kylo Ren secretly sucks at everything. He's one of those NBA stars with unlimited potential who never practiced and never developed a jump shot. His approach to every situation has been to swing wildly and kill everyone in the room.

 

One of the over-arching themes of all the movies - including the prequels - is that all these people have really bad teachers. Obi-wan himself doesn't seem completely trained by the end of the first prequel. Obi-wan's entire approach to Anakin is to say, "Patience, my young Padawan" fourteen times a movie. Luke gets no training. Rey has no training. Kylo is trained by a clearly alcoholic Luke and then the incredible melting man.

 

Obi-wan is the one who really points out how little training Luke got. He's like 30 in the prequel and is still an apprentice. Luke - at best - levitated some rocks for two months with a dying old green hermit on his back.

11 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

I don't care much about DC comics.  I watch the movies and will read the threads here, but I didn't read DC much growing up.  And I don't go into the DC comic threads and tell the people that clearly know and care more about DC comics than I do that they are wrong.)

 

I care about Star Wars more than you do. I went to KMart in 1978 and shook hands with some dude covered in gold wrapping paper on the day the action figures were FINALLY released. Top that!!!!

 

Also, you are wrong.

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29 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Top that!!!!

I had a  one on one 10 minute interview with Mark Hamill about Empire Strikes Back and Bob Anderson!

 

(Still, one of my happiest reporting moments. I was totally cool and professional during the interview, though you can hear a creak of excitement in my voice when I was reading the intro. After the interview ended, I was bouncing around the studio like a child on Christmas morning.)

 

Edit: Cool epilogue for the story. Last year, one of the relatives of Bob Anderson found the piece I did and thanked me for doing it saying it would become part of their family archive. 

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1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I care about Star Wars more than you do. I went to KMart in 1978 and shook hands with some dude covered in gold wrapping paper on the day the action figures were FINALLY released. Top that!!!!

 

Also, you are wrong.

 

But have you thought about it as much as he has? That's the true level of fandom.

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Disney has done a poor job overall in building the story, it would have been much better if they had set the guidelines and told the directors to work within those. So far it seems they let them do whatever they want. Hopefully after 9 I will be proven wrong and it all comes together. Either way, Im really looking forward to seeing 9 in a month.

 

The next Mandalorian episode is directed by Deborah Chow who will be directing all of the Obi Wan series, so Im hoping its fantastic and gives us a good look into the quality we can expect for Obi Wan.

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1 hour ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Disney has done a poor job overall in building the story, it would have been much better if they had set the guidelines and told the directors to work within those. So far it seems they let them do whatever they want. Hopefully after 9 I will be proven wrong and it all comes together. Either way, Im really looking forward to seeing 9 in a month.

 

The next Mandalorian episode is directed by Deborah Chow who will be directing all of the Obi Wan series, so Im hoping its fantastic and gives us a good look into the quality we can expect for Obi Wan.

 

TLJ was definitely weaker than TFA. I blame Rose being insanely boring for that. But overall, I enjoyed the story. I am looking forward to TRoS in a month. I always go with my nephews (who are in ****ing college now. WTF.)

 

That said, the Mandalorian is fantastic. The bombshell in Ep 1 was such a surprise--and leads to a whole bunch of questions, and anticipation for each episode.

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It seems like in the Star Wars universe, at least the Skywalker saga movies, the force and powers and lightsaber skills largely depend on the individual as much as they do the teachers.  Most of them are recognized  as being strong with the force before any kind of training begins in the first place and everyone ends up with their own style of combat.  It really comes off like the training itself is just a jumping off point for each force user to sort of take their own path.  It is sort of like getting a K-12 education, the fundamentals and lessons, but then it is up to the specific person what they want to do with that foundation. 

 

Outside of Yoda, I am not sure if any of the main Jedi masters were ever "true believers" in the sense that they followed everything exactly by the book.  Mace Windu wanted to kill the emperor on the spot when he discovered his plot, Qui Gon requested Obi Wan train Anakin despite the jedi council voting not to, Obi Wan went along with it, Anakin got with Padme even though it was against the rules etc etc etc etc......

 

It also is something to point out that the sith apprentices/knights always seem to be so much more advanced in their skills & training than their Jedi counterparts but it is usually hubris and ****iness that leads to their downfall every single time. 

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8 hours ago, Burgold said:

Rey on the other hand got one lesson. Heck, even before that in the first movie, she goes toe to toe with Kylo and basically beats him which made me wonder if she had her mind wiped and had gone through significant Jedi training that she just didn't remember. 


Rey was shown to be quite skilled at combat (with her staff) even before she ever picked up a lightsaber. Also, earlier in the movie Han shoots a storm trooper with Chewie’s bow and blasts the stormtrooper ten feet into the air in an explosion. Kylo gets shot by this same weapon in the gut and then 10 minutes later is fighting Rey while bleeding out. He also is pretty casual about the whole fight. 
 

but she is obviously incredibly force sensitive as well. We will see if this is explained in episode 9 

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19 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

but she is obviously incredibly force sensitive as well. We will see if this is explained in episode 9 

 

I think the first sign is when she touched Luke's lightsaber (bow chicka wow wow) at Maz Kanatas castle and has a vision. 

 

I'm different for most of all the other diehard fans I guess,  I actually like the new trilogy with Rey, Finn, Poe, etc.

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2 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

TLJ was definitely weaker than TFA. I blame Rose being insanely boring for that. But overall, I enjoyed the story. I am looking forward to TRoS in a month. I always go with my nephews (who are in ****ing college now. WTF.)

 

That said, the Mandalorian is fantastic. The bombshell in Ep 1 was such a surprise--and leads to a whole bunch of questions, and anticipation for each episode.

Yes, Rose and Canto was such a waste of time. Would have been MUCH better used at least showing a chunk of Rey and Luke training or something along those lines.

 

If Mandalorian keeps up this quality of episode over the season Ill be super happy, already looking forward to season 2. I love having this brand new Star Wars character that we have no idea about at all. No idea where this show could be going.

12 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

I think the first sign is when she touched Luke's lightsaber (bow chicka wow wow) at Maz Kanatas castle and has a vision. 

 

I'm different for most of all the other diehard fans I guess,  I actually like the new trilogy with Rey, Finn, Poe, etc.

Im rather diehard, seen everything, but I really like the new characters as well. Finn and Kylo are my favorites of the new ones, dont really care one way or the other about Poe.

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18 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

Really, Luke's true strength was not giving up on the goodness in people, which is what makes his characterization in TLJ such a betrayal.  Despite how evil Vader had become, he saw the good in him and managed to turn him.  In Ben, he saw a sliver of darkness and decided to kill him while he slept rather than trying to keep him on the path of light?  Makes no sense.


Is that really the strength of Luke when it happened one time with a person he never had met before in Vader/Anakin? He’d never seen someone fall to the dark side right in front of his eyes, a family member he was responsible for training and losing. It’s understandable that it would be different experiencing that first hand and knowing that you had a hand in causing that. 
 

Also your characterization of him in TLJ isn’t accurate. Saying He saw a sliver of darkness and decided to kill Ben is a hell of a way to describe: 
 

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training but then I looked inside and it was beyond what I had ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death and the end of everything that I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it...it passed like a fleeting shadow” 
 

Luke is human. He has flaws and he can make mistakes or be something less than the perfection you all want him to be. I guess it’s entirely reasonable to expect Luke at 20 to always have the exact same beliefs for the rest of his life until 50+ as shown in TLJ. How could he possibly change at all throughout a vast and complicated life? 
 

it’s not a betrayal of his character and I actually really enjoy the way TLJ plays with the idea of “legendary Luke, Jedi Master” 
 

 

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Why didn't Luke ever attempt to hunt down and kill Snoke during any of the times that he "saw the darkness building in Kylo Ren"?  The explanation of Kylo's turning is one thing, but the way it was explained/written in the script made it seem like Luke was this helpless bumbling idiot that had zero control of the situation.  

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33 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Why didn't Luke ever attempt to hunt down and kill Snoke during any of the times that he "saw the darkness building in Kylo Ren"?  The explanation of Kylo's turning is one thing, but the way it was explained/written in the script made it seem like Luke was this helpless bumbling idiot that had zero control of the situation.  

 

maybe for the same reason Obi wan and Yoda never did a thing to stop the empire either until Luke shows up on his door. If R2 doesn’t go looking for Obi Wan causing Luke to chase after, Luke is massacred by storm troopers in his sleep because Obi Wan and Yoda sat around for 20 years with their dicks in their hands

 

I will say, the ST has done a poor job explaining how the FO came to power and how Snoke even crossed paths with Kylo and was able to get to him while under Luke’s training. But that could take a whole movie to explain simile to Anakin. 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

maybe for the same reason Obi wan and Yoda never did a thing to stop the empire either until Luke shows up on his door. If R2 doesn’t go looking for Obi Wan causing Luke to chase after, Luke is massacred by storm troopers in his sleep because Obi Wan and Yoda sat around for 20 years with their dicks in their hands

 

 It will be interesting to see how they'll handle this in the new series.  

 

As to exile, you could take Luke's statement at it's face value and he just concluded more meddling from Jedi leads to more problems or maybe we'll see something else in EP9.

 

Now on to more important question.  If you can use the force, would you hold your thingy down there with your hand during certain activity or use the forc....  Is this the kind of discussion that will get me banned?

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